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A forum for thought provoking questions & answers of a spiritual nature or as pertaining to the Urantia Papers.
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Re: Proof of God

Mon Aug 10, 2015 4:57 pm +0000

OK I will offer an answer. Why does God allow (create) non-believers if he really wants all to believe? A sort of sarcastic answer would be because volunteers are of more value in reality than conscripts.

I do sense your deeper question is not how does one prove the existence of God, but how do each of us find him for real? Edril, finding the reality of God is so personal and intimate and deeply placed in our souls that all attempts to discover Him through intellectual logic produce nothing real and therefore create only more doubt. True spiritual experience isn't the product of clear logical thinking, it is the result of a will submitted to transcendent reality acceptance. It requires the epitome of vulnerability. When religions talk about repentance they mean simply that by giving in, literally, and giving up our best concepts, and asking the real God to show us something we don't already know we can open an opportunity for the spirit presence to enlighten us in a way only he can. Then we, each on our own, get to decide if what we just experienced was really God. That step in the progression is the reality called faith. All this has nothing particular to do with a book, the Urania Book or any of the theological books on your shelves. This is reality, not hypothetical belief we are accepting. Seekers seek, finders find. Which are you?

Re: Proof of God

Mon Aug 10, 2015 7:10 pm +0000

Free will - It's limited in our actions but not in our thoughts. We can think whatever we want. I wonder what the significance is, that the nomenclature the revelators use to identify God's indwelling, is as a Thought Adjuster.

101:1.3 (1104.6) The divine spirit makes contact with mortal man, not by feelings or emotions, but in the realm of the highest and most spiritualized thinking. It is your thoughts, not your feelings, that lead you Godward.

81:6.28 (910.1) At first life was a struggle for existence; now, for a standard of living; next it will be for quality of thinking, the coming earthly goal of human existence.

Re: Proof of God

Thu Aug 13, 2015 6:10 am +0000

Apologies for this repost from another topic....but it may help explain the lack of "proof" available for all sorts of universe reality, especially any proof of God. As to free will....perhaps logic itself is sufficient for that one, although there is plenty of text which explains it source and purpose and power to create and adjust and change the mind's experience in reality. And, of course, evil is a natural potential and result of free will exercised by immature and inexperienced and unwise minds within the confines of time and space. I was once immature enough to blame God for evil and then to decide the universe was godless if there was evil....silly me. Of course evil is a consequence of free will, and the choosing of good and truth and beauty is far more fruitful and functional and.....personal than any alternative.

11. Universe Mechanisms

42:11.1 (481.5) In the evaluation and recognition of mind it should be remembered that the universe is neither mechanical nor magical; it is a creation of mind and a mechanism of law. But while in practical application the laws of nature operate in what seems to be the dual realms of the physical and the spiritual, in reality they are one. The First Source and Center is the primal cause of all materialization and at the same time the first and final Father of all spirits. The Paradise Father appears personally in the extra-Havona universes only as pure energy and pure spirit — as the Thought Adjusters and other similar fragmentations.

42:11.2 (481.6) Mechanisms do not absolutely dominate the total creation; the universe of universes in toto is mind planned, mind made, and mind administered. But the divine mechanism of the universe of universes is altogether too perfect for the scientific methods of the finite mind of man to discern even a trace of the dominance of the infinite mind. For this creating, controlling, and upholding mind is neither material mind nor creature mind; it is spirit-mind functioning on and from creator levels of divine reality.

42:11.3 (482.1) The ability to discern and discover mind in universe mechanisms depends entirely on the ability, scope, and capacity of the investigating mind engaged in such a task of observation. Time-space minds, organized out of the energies of time and space, are subject to the mechanisms of time and space.

42:11.6 (482.4) Extremely complex and highly automatic-appearing cosmic mechanisms always tend to conceal the presence of the originative or creative indwelling mind from any and all intelligences very far below the universe levels of the nature and capacity of the mechanism itself. Therefore is it inevitable that the higher universe mechanisms must appear to be mindless to the lower orders of creatures. The only possible exception to such a conclusion would be the implication of mindedness in the amazing phenomenon of an apparently self-maintaining universe — but that is a matter of philosophy rather than one of actual experience.

42:11.7 (482.5) Since mind co-ordinates the universe, fixity of mechanisms is nonexistent. The phenomenon of progressive evolution associated with cosmic self-maintenance is universal. The evolutionary capacity of the universe is inexhaustible in the infinity of spontaneity. Progress towards harmonious unity, a growing experiential synthesis superimposed on an ever-increasing complexity of relationships, could be effected only by a purposive and dominant mind.

42:11.8 (482.6) The higher the universe mind associated with any universe phenomenon, the more difficult it is for the lower types of mind to discover it. And since the mind of the universe mechanism is creative spirit-mind (even the mindedness of the Infinite), it can never be discovered or discerned by the lower-level minds of the universe, much less by the lowest mind of all, the human. The evolving animal mind, while naturally God-seeking, is not alone and of itself inherently God-knowing.

42:12.13 (484.1) Physical, spiritual, and mindal energies, as such and in their pure states, do not fully interact as actuals of the phenomenal universes. On Paradise the three energies are co-ordinate, in Havona co-ordinated, while in the universe levels of finite activities there must be encountered all ranges of material, mindal, and spiritual dominance. In nonpersonal situations of time and space, physical energy seems to predominate, but it also appears that the more nearly spirit-mind function approaches divinity of purpose and supremacy of action, the more nearly does the spirit phase become dominant; that on the ultimate level spirit-mind may become all but completely dominant. On the absolute level spirit certainly is dominant. And from there on out through the realms of time and space, wherever a divine spirit reality is present, whenever a real spirit-mind is functioning, there always tends to be produced a material or physical counterpart of that spirit reality.

42:12.14 (484.2) The spirit is the creative reality; the physical counterpart is the time-space reflection of the spirit reality, the physical repercussion of the creative action of spirit-mind.


Re: Proof of God

Thu Aug 13, 2015 6:35 am +0000

Another excellent Paper on free will:

118:7.1 (1300.5) The function of Creator will and creature will, in the grand universe, operates within the limits, and in accordance with the possibilities, established by the Master Architects. This foreordination of these maximum limits does not, however, in the least abridge the sovereignty of creature will within these boundaries. Neither does ultimate foreknowledge — full allowance for all finite choice — constitute an abrogation of finite volition. A mature and farseeing human being might be able to forecast the decision of some younger associate most accurately, but this foreknowledge takes nothing away from the freedom and genuineness of the decision itself. The Gods have wisely limited the range of the action of immature will, but it is true will, nonetheless, within these defined limits.

118:7.2 (1300.6) Even the supreme correlation of all past, present, and future choice does not invalidate the authenticity of such choosings. It rather indicates the foreordained trend of the cosmos and suggests foreknowledge of those volitional beings who may, or may not, elect to become contributory parts of the experiential actualization of all reality.

118:7.3 (1300.7) Error in finite choosing is time bound and time limited. It can exist only in time and within the evolving presence of the Supreme Being. Such mistaken choosing is time possible and indicates (besides the incompleteness of the Supreme) that certain range of choice with which immature creatures must be endowed in order to enjoy universe progression by making freewill contact with reality.

118:7.4 (1301.1) Sin in time-conditioned space clearly proves the temporal liberty — even license — of the finite will. Sin depicts immaturity dazzled by the freedom of the relatively sovereign will of personality while failing to perceive the supreme obligations and duties of cosmic citizenship.

118:7.5 (1301.2) Iniquity in the finite domains reveals the transient reality of all God-unidentified selfhood. Only as a creature becomes God identified, does he become truly real in the universes. Finite personality is not self-created, but in the superuniverse arena of choice it does self-determine destiny. *

118:7.6 (1301.3) The bestowal of life renders material-energy systems capable of self-perpetuation, self-propagation, and self-adaptation. The bestowal of personality imparts to living organisms the further prerogatives of self-determination, self-evolution, and self-identification with a fusion spirit of Deity.

:!: :idea: 8)
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