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 Post subject: Re: Proof of God
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Malaku, you ignored the main point of the thought experiment. I started with the obvious to build up to the kicker. Of course you can't choose cities that you aren't aware of. But the point is when I ask you to think of a single city, you don't even summon a list of every city that you DO know, and then choose one. Something like 2-5 will just pop into your thoughts. You didn't choose them. In fact they wouldn't have surfaced in your consciousness had I not asked you to to think of one.

If you actually ran that thought experiment, perhaps New York, Los Angeles, and Miami popped up and you only even considered those three when choosing. Why wasn't Sydney considered? You're certainly aware of it. You didn't choose to not consider Sydney, because that thought process IS ITSELF considering Sydney as an option. It didn't appear in your consciousness at all. You didn't have the freedom to even consider it as a choice, even though you are well aware of it being a city that you could have chosen.

I didn't choose to like jazz music more than country. I simply enjoyed it more than others; this was not a choice. I was not involved in this decision process. I heard it, it resonated with my brain, then in reflection of this resonance, I chose to label it my favorite. The only choice I made there was thinking about what the word favorite means and deciding which genre best fits it. And I can't decide to not like jazz anymore. I lack that freedom. Even if I wanted to not enjoy jazz music, I would not be able to stop enjoying it.



nodAmanaV,

That actually wasn't my real question. Proof of God actually was the real question. I saw the quote from my original post on my Facebook feed that was put there by this website and I wanted to discuss it.

I would certainly like to know god and strive to be like him in all aspects save one. (problem of evil; different topic)



From this second round of replies, I'm gathering that you guys are under the assumption that if someone doesn't already believe in God, that they never will. At least not by the persuasion of other alone. But this was the main point of my question: Why are there non-believers if God wants us to believe?


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 Post subject: Re: Proof of God
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Makalu -- what you have presented below is interesting to this discussion and I only select your post because it would seem to be a consensuses with most others here, therefore I do only wish to use your words as an example because of how you presented them.
Makalu wrote:
[. . .] regarding proof of God...the only experience that validates the Fatherhood of God is the experience of being a child of God. To someone who has experienced this no proof is necessary and to someone who has not experienced it no proof is possible. If it wasn't so then there would be no use for faith in Gods plan for life on earth.

Primarily your statement above might be considered as coming from the Urantia Book text, and would be the overall opinion, and as the text is presented, would be correct. However, would not the real question be in response, how does one explain, in their own words, to validate "the Fatherhood of God" through the "experience of being a child of God" to others without using the text of the UB as a reference? Can anyone explain, what being a "child of God" would entail through their personal experiences? It is easy to use UB text just because but, what would someone experience in reality?

Makalu wrote:
consider that even the observational facts of science are experienced and filtered thru the mind before they are made real to another mind.

Yes, this would be true, but again what would be necessary to the mind, regarding the "facts of science" which should be filtered, and then what would be filtered out or changed in order to be "made real to another mind"?

Makalu wrote:
If you could abolish all talk and knowledge of God and divinity from the earth the concept would soon reappear due to the actions of the indwelling spirit of God within us all. Like water, the spirit is constantly seeking it's own level...seeking to return from whence it came.

Putting "the indwelling spirit of God" aside for a moment, and assuming that from the prehistoric metaphysics of the evolution of man, that there was never a mention of a god or deity which is unseen, how would man have possibly developed if the intellect of man was always based on an evolution of facts as experienced by man and transferred to man as science? If God was never mentioned, would man have invented the God concept to explain the unexplainable?


Last edited by Caligastia on Mon Aug 10, 2015 6:32 pm +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Proof of God
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Edril wrote:
Why are there non-believers if God wants us to believe?

Here's your answer:
Why is there jazz music if all we want is to believe in country?


Caligastia wrote:
If God was never mentioned, would man have invented the God concept to explain the unexplainable?

Here's your answer:
If someone didn't advocate the devil, would you be able to explain why you're here identified as the Prince of what everyone has unmentionably between their buttocks?


Last edited by nodAmanaV on Sun Aug 09, 2015 3:13 pm +0000, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Proof of God
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Edril wrote:
From this second round of replies, I'm gathering that you guys are under the assumption that if someone doesn't already believe in God, that they never will. At least not by the persuasion of other alone. But this was the main point of my question: Why are there non-believers if God wants us to believe?
Your assumption would be incorrect, at least as it pertains to my opinion. My whole position is predicated on the concept of choice inherent in selfhood. One can choose. The limitation you place is a construct of your own mental workings since you deny free will.

Again, the greatest gift that God gave us is free will. He did not make us robots. Choice in such matters as to the existence of Deity and aligning our decisions to the will of the divine is His ultimate, possibly absolute, gift to us. Put another way, in eternity, what God concluded is that the purest gift he could ever give to any individuality is sovereignty of choice. It's about the only thing that lets us distinguish ourselves, and it is what lets us creatures cause separation from God. Non-God-knowning mortals are exercising their free will endowment to choose not to know the Divine Value Giver.

You have issues with the problem of evil, yet it comes back to the same point. In the universes of time and space, evil is potential until chosen to be actualized by the individual creature. The "problem" of evil is inherent in the bestowal of genuine free will. If such potentialities did not exist, THEN we would not have free will.

If you refuse to accept that we indeed have free will, then this question will continue to befuddle you...


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 Post subject: Re: Proof of God
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Edril...the concept of free will doesn't define the range of potential choices...it only says that the choice was made freely by you alone.

this:
Quote:
I heard it, it resonated with my brain, then in reflection of this resonance, I chose to label it my favorite. The only choice I made there was thinking about what the word favorite means and deciding which genre best fits it.


just sounds to me as if you made a free will choice...perhaps not based entirely on the conscious intellect which isnt surprising since we make choices based on emotions and images moreso than reason regardless of the nature of the choice...but still a choice freely made by you and not something that was forced on you by Nature

cal...simplest and quickest answers:

1. to search for and find god is to search for and find Everything

2. ask yourself what constitutes the capabilities, perceptions and reality-response of the mind and there will be your answer...

3. we were created in His image(spirit) and we would still have spiritual experiences and still invent a theology to try and make sense of the experience


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 Post subject: Re: Proof of God
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Makalu wrote:
[. . .]the concept of free will doesn't define the range of potential choices...it only says that the choice was made freely by you alone.

Quote:
(58.2) 4:3.4 God repents of nothing he has ever done, now does, or ever will do. He is all-wise as well as all-powerful. Man’s wisdom grows out of the trials and errors of human experience; God’s wisdom consists in the unqualified perfection of his infinite universe insight, and this divine foreknowledge effectively directs the creative free will.

(614.7) 54:2.2 Every creature of every evolving universe who aspires to do the Father’s will is destined to become the partner of the time-space Creators in this magnificent adventure of experiential perfection attainment. Were this not true, the Father would have hardly endowed such creatures with creative free will, neither would he indwell them, actually go into partnership with them by means of his own spirit.


Granted, "the concept of free will" would indicate that a person has the ability to choose but, the ability to choose, is limited to only a finite "range of potential choices" which, in itself, limits the ability to create one's own choice, where in this ability to create a non-choice for oneself, or to not choose from any of the "potential choices", and not being able to create a choice for ourselves validates that free will does truly not exist. If as stated above that if "divine foreknowledge effectively directs the creative free will" and since we creatures do not have "divine foreknowledge" to evaluate "potential choices" we are subject to error in advance of choosing. So, if God knows, in advance what our choice will be, because it has been directed, it cannot be our free will. In other words, we are given the free will choice to choose until we have chosen God's will.

Also, if "the Father would have hardly endowed such creatures with creative free will, neither would he indwell them, actually go into partnership with them by means of his own spirit" would indicate the thought adjuster's leading or guiding, would ultimately result in mandatory compliance to do our Father's will, thereby allowing for only one choice. Would the aforementioned statement indicate that the Father, who has "foreknowledge" not "go into partnership with" us knowing what our choices will be? Should one choose to rebel, and be indwelled with the spirit, of "creative free will" not also be our Father's will, especially if He has foreknowledge of these choices?

Therefore, every person "who aspires to do the Father’s will", and presumes that they know what the Father's will is or might be, as they perceive it, would be the Father's will, therefor truly being "creative free will". If this is the case, then the argument is with the definition of what is the Father's will?


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 Post subject: Re: Proof of God
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well cal if you insist that a definition of free will must be absolute and embrace infinite choices in order to constitute free will and i insist that free will is relative and limited then we can just agree to disagree on the definition of free will and save us both from wasting anymore time.

an example of how our limited and finite free will choices are practiced in the divine administration can be found here:

Quote:
48:6.5 (552.3) On the mansion worlds the seraphic evangels will help you to choose wisely among the optional routes to Edentia, Salvington, Uversa, and Havona. If there are a number of equally advisable routes, these will be put before you, and you will be permitted to select the one that most appeals to you. These seraphim then make recommendations to the four and twenty advisers on Jerusem concerning that course which would be most advantageous for each ascending soul.

48:6.6 (552.4) You are not given unrestricted choice as to your future course; but you may choose within the limits of that which the transition ministers and their superiors wisely determine to be most suitable for your future spirit attainment. The spirit world is governed on the principle of respecting your freewill choice provided the course you may choose is not detrimental to you or injurious to your fellows.


note that these, and many other free will choices beyond our imagination, are made after having made the ultimate choice to do Gods will...to search for god and to share the experiential evolutionary journey with Him.


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 Post subject: Re: Proof of God
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Greetings Friends!

Interesting discussion. Brings many questions to mind.

1. If there is no free will, does that prove or provide evidence that there is no God?

2. If there is free will, does that prove or provide evidence that there is God?

3. What is Edril's "link" between these concepts of God's existence and free will?

4. Are there effects, results, consequences, etc. to our choices? Do we reap what we sow regarding the "decisions" or choices we make?

5. Why is there differentiation of choice (decision) from one mind to another given similar or exact circumstance and choices?

6. Why can a mind which chooses (decides) one thing or one way, change motives, intentions, priorities, and acts in response to the same stimuli, situation, circumstance, and relationship over time?

7. What are the options to free will and its results for which there is evidence and also "no-God"? - fate, instinct, hive mind. Fate without gods?

I believe we are who we are and we live as we do and choose what we choose based entirely upon prior choice and the outcome of that collective of choices....and yet, have the power to change our choices, either individual ones or collectively by changing our perspective based on the evidence of results leading to far different choices, and for far different reasons, than we once did. I find ample, even overwhelming, evidence of the fundamental cause and effect relationship in free will choice. Our choices are both effect from cause and the cause of more effect. They arise out of the effect of choice itself and create additional cause for future effect which adjusts my choosing - but not my choices. What is learning, insight, adaptation, creativity, discernment, and individualization of experience if not the result of free will choice?

:?: :wink: 8)


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Why are there non-believers if God wants us to believe?


Because anything else (on this planet) would be phony. And it would short-circuit the Game of the Ages making it worthless. According to the UB's revelators there are realms where all of the native inhabitants are perfect. They serve the purpose you propose. But our realm of the cosmos serves the purpose of slowly unveiling the mystery and incredible beauty of The Infinite in a way that gives all intelligent creatures the option to participate.

I'm a musician and will always be one. I can choose from moment to moment if I want to like Jazz more than Country or Classical right now. Going forward, I'll never be beholden to any fixed concept of either "like" or "music genre". In fact I realize and have experienced that a much more fulfilling experience and creation of music lies in the future as a destiny. And that destiny casts its shadow over me even now...


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Riktare wrote:
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In fact I realize and have experienced that a much more fulfilling experience and creation of music lies in the future as a destiny. And that destiny casts its shadow over me even now...

Riktare, now that's music to my ears!!!


If I'll see you no more in this world
I'll meet ya on the next one
Don't be late
Don't be late

-Jimi Hendrix


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Edril wrote:
Quote:
Free will-
I personally can't subscribe to the concept of free will. The ability to actually author our own thoughts, when you really think about it, would require some kind of magical power rivaling that which is generally attributed to god; omniscience. I don't decide what thoughts pop into my head, they just pop in there. ( :lol: Ghostbusters reference!) Say I ask you to think of a city. Any city. First of all, you are limited to the names of cities that you know of. That list is then limited to the names of cities that you can remember. Then here's where free will really falls apart. When I asked you to think of the name of a city, I bet a list of 2-5 cities simply appeared in your head. Out of all the cities you know and remember, why these 3? When did you decide for them to come to the surface of your consciousness? I think if you take a hard honest look at that process, you'll find that you had no freedom here, they simply arrived within your consciousness. Now you might say, well that's just how our brains work, we are limited to the capacity of our brains and we still had the freedom to choose which of those 3. But then again, did you really? There are a million factors that would cause you to choose one, and if you look at each of those factors, you will see there is as little freedom in each of those factors as there was in choosing the original list of contenders. Another though experiment: Consider your favorite genre of music as well as your least favorite genre of music. For me, my favorite would be swing-jazz, while my least favorite is modern pop country. Do you or I have the freedom to choose to reverse these affinities? I can't choose for country to be my favorite while choosing to hate jazz. This is impossible. I could PRETEND that I dislike jazz. I could stop listening to it, and instead listen to country and claim it is my favorite. But deep down, I really prefer jazz and cannot change this.


Free will, ahh, the question of the ages. I believe I have free-wll. I could have just ignored this thread and keep things to myself but I have chosen to give my opinion or share my belief. This thing that I have done confirms to me that I have free-will. I believe what you (Edril) are describing above is not free will but instinct. Animals don’t have free will, they have instinct. Men also have instinct and sometimes make choices based on it but I believe we have more than that. I would say free will choices are based on mind deliberations. That’s what separate us from animals. We see animals making choices but these choices are all based on instinct. Free will choices are for big decisions that have big consequences and requires deliberations/contemplations to come to it.


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Exactly. Free will is the essence of what allows man to transcend instinct. Without it, we truly are just creatures of the flesh, no different than the animals of the realm. One piece of evidence of God is this ability to transcend.

And yes, we all start out as cave dwellers. The beauty of this life is that we are led to the light. When we follow the light, we can see the sky, if we so choose.


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Speaking of cave dwellers, the following came to mind. I find the issue of motive to be a key element in this discussion. While self interest may lead to a reasoned "other" interest or mutual shared interest which intellect itself may possibly deliver, I think that self sacrifice for the benefit of another or others highly suspect as originating in intellect....it isn't smart or clever or instinctual or logical to act in any other's interest over your own. This is the love response....love is not instinctual, mechanistic, evolutionary, nor even reasonable. Like life itself, self forgetting love requires a source, a creator.

Science cannot discover the source of life or love....but, of course, as any truly reasoning mind should know....self awareness, reasoning/logic, AND science are all evidence which refutes mechanistic "solutions" to the existence of anything at all. Evolution explains nothing except the progressive process of order....certainly not a unreasoned result of chaos.

To purport that God does not exist because some are unaware or disbelieving is to position oneself in a very precarious and illogical conundrum of "self" denial and self perfidy (the betrayal of one's own nature and ability to discern and choose)....the ability of us each to discern....and transcend.

Awaiting answers to the linkage between "proof of God" and "no free will".....and some explanation for how they relate. I suppose the lack of free will is preventing response? No, I'm pretty sure it's a lack of time, interest (that would be priority)....or choice (but priority is a choice then too, isn't it)?

This is a more interesting discussion than those related to "the devil made me do it" and the evil, debased nature of humanity!!! So what then if God does not provide free will and the devil didn't make me do anything? Awaiting some philosophical construct which harmonizes the observable world into any meaning. Oh heck, there's another one - meaning and value - the assessment of observation by critical thinking. Oh my, another one....thinking....about anything at all except eating and mating, the primal survival instincts.

Edril - you've opened quite a can of worms here. So while the "proof" you opened with may be lacking, do you find more evidence for God or more evidence for no-God I wonder? And does such evidence weigh upon the scale of your opinions on the matter....or any matter? What else do you now rely upon in your philosophic construct (we all have one) for which there may be evidence but no proof?

:wink: :smile:

100:4.5 (1098.2) In the mind’s eye conjure up a picture of one of your primitive ancestors of cave-dwelling times — a short, misshapen, filthy, snarling hulk of a man standing, legs spread, club upraised, breathing hate and animosity as he looks fiercely just ahead. Such a picture hardly depicts the divine dignity of man. But allow us to enlarge the picture. In front of this animated human crouches a saber-toothed tiger. Behind him, a woman and two children. Immediately you recognize that such a picture stands for the beginnings of much that is fine and noble in the human race, but the man is the same in both pictures. Only, in the second sketch you are favored with a widened horizon. You therein discern the motivation of this evolving mortal. His attitude becomes praiseworthy because you understand him. If you could only fathom the motives of your associates, how much better you would understand them. If you could only know your fellows, you would eventually fall in love with them.

8)


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Yeah Edril, what do you have to say for yourself? First you got me all upset with that "no free will" bit like an atheist and now Brad's got all your worms all over the place! Why now he's even conjuring up saber-toothed tigers and Neanderthals for heavens sake. Come on!


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The Simple and bottom Line

About Freewill ...

IS You have the choice to choose!


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