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Who is the Actual Messiah? Did the Actual Messiah come during 1st Century B.C.? Or did the Actual Messiah not come during the times of Joshua ben Josep??


Here is the case for others being Messiah:
James CONCEIVED in AEGYPT: July 4 B.C. Carried on Ezraon' Boat to Joppa with Mary-Joshua-Joseph. Given commandments from Joseph-Joshua-Mary. Manager of funds for the house of Joseph. Literally, brought out of AEgypt, unlike Joshua who was carried into AEgypt.
AGAINST: James did not appreciate totally all the moments he spent with brother Joshua. He did receive special training with the Apostles (along with brother Judas), but the instructions and mission he carried forward was held in custodial role.

Here is the case for others being Messiah:
John the Baptist: Raised with Orthodox Mosaic-Jeremiaan teaching. Devoted to Mother Elizabth. Baptises believers for the remission of Sin. Was a shepherd.
AGAINST: He refused to declare who he is. He said it is for his followers to say who he is. Abner was mentor. It is time to listen to the voice of Father and be one's own mentor. How could John be the messiah when he takes instruction from someone Orthodox?

Another to consider is Lazarus:
Who is Lazarus? The brother of Mary and Martha of Bethany Grove. How did we teach? We do not know. But we know Lazarus fled to the "Promised Land" (the Land Moses promised Joshua) with David and Ruth. Philadelphia-Ammon, Jordan, the City that Abner was Priest.


Did the Messiah actually appear during A.D. 1st Century?
Maybe Not. Maybe the Messiah of Juda-ism is come during 20th-21st Century. Maybe the Messiah has come and shall guide all believers from the distinction in the modern age of Actual Religious Work versus Traditional, Vestigial, Cultural, or Religion-Of-the-Collective. Actual Religious Work, as it is shown, is marked by individuality of relationship God-and-his-man, as distinct from God-and-his-city, God-and-his-nation. Jesus met Lazarus during Bar-Mitzpah.
Lazarus: there is so much hidden mystery about Lazarus. Why would Joshua resurrect Lazarus ben Simon?

May be that Messiah has come during 20th Century, and how we can find Universal Philadelphianism, the City of Brotherly Love, the Nation of Believers. Philadelphia the universal City, the Capital of Revelational Religion, individual. Juda, the Capital of National Brethren, those like Prince Davi who are adopted by Lord

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No messiahs
Only revealers.


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Well, clearly, it wasn't Jesus, even the Urantia Book admits that. For anyone to be recognised as our (the Jewish) Messiah, he must do what is expected of the Jewish Messiah, which no man has yet been able to do. I expect at some point, though, he will come.


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Greetings Folks,

Doesn't much depend on how one defines the word "messiah"? Aren't there messiahs in every religion, and sometimes in every different sect of each religion? The word "messiah" is emotionally charged; it has been mythologized to often mean savior. What exactly does the world need to be saved from? Humans are not victims.

In Paper 122 we are told that Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah, but he was the world's deliverer. I think the author chose his words carefully when using the word "deliverer". A deliverer is someone who provides something promised and is based on the latin word which means, "set free." Jesus did exactly that and continues to do that within the souls of men and women up to this very moment in time. And, he promises to come again!

In Friendship,
Rexford


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Maybe the messiah has not come yet because the chosen people have not lived up to the task and when they do they may find the messiah was there all the time, inside of each individual.
The thought of a Jewish messiah conjures up thoughts death and destruction for non-Jews. Gods laws as interpreted by Jews, enforced by terror with help from above.
I personally do not look forward to being incinerated because I dont believe this sort of thing.


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Greetings Nelsong,

You wrote the following:

Nelsong wrote:
Maybe the messiah has not come yet because the chosen people have not lived up to the task and when they do they may find the messiah was there all the time, inside of each individual.


This is interesting. Isn't that exactly what John the Baptist preached? Aren't we told that some day there will come a greater John the Baptist who will teach that very thing, and without the need for messiahs?

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Sooner or later another and greater John the Baptist is due to arise proclaiming "the kingdom of God is at hand" — meaning a return to the high spiritual concept of Jesus, who proclaimed that the kingdom is the will of his heavenly Father dominant and transcendent in the heart of the believer — and doing all this without in any way referring either to the visible church on earth or to the anticipated second coming of Christ. 170:5:19


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Jesus, born Jewish, is not a Christian. He does foster them however. Jews too.

The Messiah, the son of King David, is supposed to appear and deliver the Jewish people from the oppression of the occupiers of their homeland, and deliver them from bondage.

The thing is, today, Israelis occupy Palestine, and the Jews aren't the ones in bondage, their property confiscated, trapped, and marginalized behind prison like walls. (I may not be within the guidelines of this forum for so stating. Admin, please let me know if this is the case)

The UB goes into fine detail about who is the Messiah, and who is not. I have never been confused about it. I understood it the first read through, the same as I do today after many more readings. Jesus was the man whom the Jews were looking for 2000 years ago, as the prophets foretold. They failed to identify him as such, and then they rejected him. Some still do.


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Well, first off, you would have to acknowledge that "Palestine" even exists, which it doesn't. What does exist is Arabs living in Greater Israel. They have been graciously offered a State of their own THREE times by Israel, on Land that does not by right belong to them, but which Israel is willing to give up, for peace, and three times they have rejected the offer.

Politics aside, though, lets look at the matter. A Messiah for the Jews is not, and never has been, intended to mean any kind of saving in the religious sense. That is a Christian adaptation. For us, it has always meant that Judgement Day would come, all Jews would return to the Land, and all non-Jews would take the fringes of a Jew and march up to Jerusalem with him (Zech. 8:23). In other words, the world would be ruled by the righteous Government of Messiah, and we would all live forever in Paradise on Earth.

Now, you can disagree or agree with that or not as you choose, but there is no question that within Jewish belief, non-Jews are NOT going to be incinerated by virtue of being non-Jews, and we don't believe in Hell, at least, most of us don't. At worst, an evil person, Jewish or otherwise, simply won't exist any more after Judgement Day. Non-being would be their punishment.


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Thank you 001
Glad I'll avoid being torched.
Seriously- paradise on earth is very synonymous with an age of light and life that I believe all religionists crave. On the other hand, we can make life here a living hell if we secularize ourselves like is happening right now to some degree.
Either way it will take a group effort.
I cannot visualize one person making it happen.
I don't believe in hell either but evil and sin are real and will bring about the non-existence you refer to if embraced.
Personally I thought parts of part 4 of TUB did much to help my understanding of the Old Testament that is more rewarding than the stand alone OT.
What do you think?


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Nelsong wrote:
Thank you 001

You're welcome.

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Glad I'll avoid being torched.

Indeed, I am sure you are.

Quote:
Seriously- paradise on earth is very synonymous with an age of light and life that I believe all religionists crave. On the other hand, we can make life here a living hell if we secularize ourselves like is happening right now to some degree.

I am inclined to agree on both counts, at least to a point. But Paradise one Earth, and Heaven, are two different things. I think that much needs to be observed. As for turning the current Earth into Hell, well, yes, I agree. It reminds me of the cartoon my wife saw the other day. A boy says to another, "you know, all these shootings in school are a shame. G-d should do something about it." The other boy says, "Yeah, but he's not allowed in school any more, he really can't do much at all there."

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Either way it will take a group effort.
I cannot visualize one person making it happen.

Well, There is considerable debate about whether Messiah will come and make all Jews follow Torah perfectly, or whether all Jews will follow Torah perfectly, and thus bring about the coming of Messiah! So your point is an interesting one to consider, at least insofar as Jews are concerned.

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I don't believe in hell either but evil and sin are real and will bring about the non-existence you refer to if embraced.

Interesting that we agree on that.

Quote:
Personally I thought parts of part 4 of TUB did much to help my understanding of the Old Testament that is more rewarding than the stand alone OT.
What do you think?

I haven't read a lot of Part IV, but what I have read makes me inclined to disagree. This is because much of it is written in a manner that, in my opinion, contradicts much of traditional Pharisaic Judaism that later became what we know as Rabbinical Judaism, ie, the form of Orthodoxy that is used today. It also seems to portray, the Sadducaic and Priestly authorities in a bad light, when in fact it was the Romans who wanted the man dead. Historically speaking, if we had wanted him dead, it would have been very easy to accomplish without getting the Romans involved except to get permission from the Governor. Jews were the only nationality in the Empire that had permission to exact capital punishment for violation of their own Law, provided they received permission from the Roman Governor of the place, which was almost NEVER refused. There would have been no logic in turning him over to the Roman Imperial State for execution, when it could have been done quickly and quietly by themselves. This of course is the same problem I have with the NT.

There is one other problem. The so-called "Cleansing of the Temple" in both books is completely unrealistic. The Temple had a Roman Imperial Guard around it (probably Legionaries or Praetorians) who were doubled, sometimes even tripled, on festival days. Are you going to tell me that Jesus went to the Temple during the Passover time with a whip, a cat-o-nine-tails as they were commonly called, and began to whip the money changers and overturn the tables, and generally make a royal mess, and interrupt a center of commerce, and cause a complete disaster, and risk causing a riot, and said guards were not going to turn him into Swiss Cheese within 30 seconds? PLEASE!

So, yes, I do question a considerable amount about anything I read about Jesus, from any source, to be quite honest.


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Yaakov001 wrote:
I haven't read a lot of Part IV, but what I have read makes me inclined to disagree. This is because much of it is written in a manner that, in my opinion, contradicts much of traditional Pharisaic Judaism that later became what we know as Rabbinical Judaism, ie, the form of Orthodoxy that is used today. It also seems to portray, the Sadducaic and Priestly authorities in a bad light, when in fact it was the Romans who wanted the man dead. Historically speaking, if we had wanted him dead, it would have been very easy to accomplish without getting the Romans involved except to get permission from the Governor. Jews were the only nationality in the Empire that had permission to exact capital punishment for violation of their own Law, provided they received permission from the Roman Governor of the place, which was almost NEVER refused. There would have been no logic in turning him over to the Roman Imperial State for execution, when it could have been done quickly and quietly by themselves. This of course is the same problem I have with the NT.

There is one other problem. The so-called "Cleansing of the Temple" in both books is completely unrealistic. The Temple had a Roman Imperial Guard around it (probably Legionaries or Praetorians) who were doubled, sometimes even tripled, on festival days. Are you going to tell me that Jesus went to the Temple during the Passover time with a whip, a cat-o-nine-tails as they were commonly called, and began to whip the money changers and overturn the tables, and generally make a royal mess, and interrupt a center of commerce, and cause a complete disaster, and risk causing a riot, and said guards were not going to turn him into Swiss Cheese within 30 seconds? PLEASE!

So, yes, I do question a considerable amount about anything I read about Jesus, from any source, to be quite honest.


Hi Yaakov,

I'm sad. :cry:
I was hoping by now you would be telling us you'd read most of Part 4. I know that when you do this however, most of everything you state above will be brought to a harmonious place in your mind. Until you do, I for one, don't see how we can discuss it further with you right now.

I'm a bit surprised that you haven't taken the time to immerse yourself in Part 4 yet. But based on all you've said about yourself, I understand.


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As an X Mormon I can say with confidence that a personal relationship with God as the only true religion comes easy for some and others just need to hold onto stuff that makes them comfortable.
The religions of the world can be a challenge.


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Nelsong wrote:
As an X Mormon I can say with confidence that a personal relationship with God as the only true religion comes easy for some and others just need to hold onto stuff that makes them comfortable.

This is so true! Who wants to get out of their comfort zone on anything, let alone religion? I do very much understand this factor when it comes to integrating what the UB teaches. It takes a lot of time.


Nelsong wrote:
The religions of the world can be a challenge.

I suppose I was lucky in this department. I was a clean slate, sort of. I was raised to believe all religions were false. All were unworthy of my time. They were all lies. And by the way, God does not exist kid! . . . . . . . Interesting to note, I found him anyway! :lol:


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Finding God is the ultimate quest. The prophets of the OT were looking for him with considerable sincerity, no different than many of us. And God was talking in his own way then just like now.
One of my favorite papers is the last few pages of the revelation: the faith of Jesus and Jesus the man.
Helps me keep my feet on the ground and I re-read it often.


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To be perfectly honest, the only reason I HAVEN'T read it thoroughly is because I have been taking classes on other parts of the book, and writing my OWN book, unrelated to UB studies. Please understand that there is much about the UB I find quite valuable, namely, the Eternal University (ie, the Ascension Career). I'll get to the tail end of it eventually, I just haven't had time yet.


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