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Another question is for the Life Carriers. Why is up to us to clean up the genetic mess of life plasm experimentation? And I mean no disrespect to our brothers on High, but why is it now up to a gene pool was failed, not only once, but was failed in remedial uplifting by Adam and Eves default? Are we better at experimenting with DNA than the designers of DNA??
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Why look a gift horse in the mouth?
Life Carriers obviously trust us to take on this enormous responsibility. I consider it an honor to start working on needed improvements to the gene pool. O:)


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Nelsong wrote:
Another question is for the Life Carriers. Why is up to us to clean up the genetic mess of life plasm experimentation? And I mean no disrespect to our brothers on High, but why is it now up to a gene pool was failed, not only once, but was failed in remedial uplifting by Adam and Eves default? Are we better at experimenting with DNA than the designers of DNA??
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why look a gift horse in the mouth?
Life Carriers obviously trust us to take on this enormous responsibility. I consider it an honor to start working on needed improvements to the gene pool. O:)


Any guinea pigs out there willing to participate in a most interesting human experiment? Dr Josef Mengele III is heading up the study. It is purely voluntary, for now. :mrgreen:


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MannyC wrote:
Nelsong wrote:
Another question is for the Life Carriers. Why is up to us to clean up the genetic mess of life plasm experimentation? And I mean no disrespect to our brothers on High, but why is it now up to a gene pool was failed, not only once, but was failed in remedial uplifting by Adam and Eves default? Are we better at experimenting with DNA than the designers of DNA??
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why look a gift horse in the mouth?
Life Carriers obviously trust us to take on this enormous responsibility. I consider it an honor to start working on needed improvements to the gene pool. O:)


Any guinea pigs out there willing to participate in a most interesting human experiment? Dr Josef Mengele III is heading up the study. It is purely voluntary, for now. :mrgreen:

Louis,

I understand your point. I want to try to put this issue in perspective from the standpoint of the text.

The text states there are superiors and inferiors, genetically, intellectually and so forth. It is explained in the context of race. But emphasizes, that being said, that it is only manifest in the individual. In other words, even in a single family you will have superior and inferior offspring. This is were the issue should be addressed, at the individual level and not at the level of the group. The text also makes it clear that in light of what was going on in 1934, what the Nazis were doing was NOT the thing to do. In fact, it was definitely undesirable.

In light of all this however, the text also makes it clear that the proliferation of "inferiors" in society creates an undesirable situation. No, I'm sure no one here would support the approach of Nazi type extermination, I don't. But we are prodded to do something, right?

When I think about it, the only thing that makes sense, is for this to be accomplished at the individual level. Through a long period of time, with increased education, individually, but in the context of the family, should we be active to be more selective on who our offspring should procreate with and do what can be done to limit those offspring who are clearly "inferior".

This is one nasty topic, but it needs to be discussed. The text makes references to it all over the place.


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I agree. I believe it to be insincere and disingenuous to knee-jerk a reference to the Nazis in light of what's actually being said. You can point fingers at the bad examples all you want, but when you do, you are ignoring that according to the text itself, the notions of previous eugenics programs were based on extremely flawed (thus evil) foundations.

It remains the case that these are factual realities that we must contend with. While race is a contributor to the context of the issue, it is absolutely not the correct basis from which to make these decisions. Nor does biological disfellowship or breeding control imply that any individual should not be treated with the utmost respect and dignity.

And how is it ethical to doom subsequent generations to inferior genetics when we possess the capability to curtail such potentialities? It ends up meaning more people inherit disease and we perpetuate the problems associated with the socially unfit. To me this false sentiment is a symptom of the Lucifer rebellion-- valuing the individual's rights over those of the entire species, which is actually illogical because with such a preference, ultimately even more individuals are adversely impacted.


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nodAmanaV wrote:
The text states there are superiors and inferiors, genetically, intellectually and so forth. It is explained in the context of race. But emphasizes, that being said, that it is only manifest in the individual. In other words, even in a single family you will have superior and inferior offspring. This is were the issue should be addressed, at the individual level and not at the level of the group. The text also makes it clear that in light of what was going on in 1934, what the Nazis were doing was NOT the thing to do. In fact, it was definitely undesirable.



What would be helpful is a precise definition of superior and inferior characteristics in the human species. If this is a problem we are to resolve for ourselves then we must define the goal in exacting terms.

Please list the desirable human traits in one column and the undesirable in another column. I understand that you feel that something must be done and this is where we must start. Be careful not to include anything in the undesirable column that could describe you or me. :wink:

I agree that it must be discussed, but can we do it honestly and without the PC police? This is what you mean about a nasty topic, right?


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quil wrote:
And how is it ethical to doom subsequent generations to inferior genetics when we possess the capability to curtail such potentialities? It ends up meaning more people inherit disease and we perpetuate the problems associated with the socially unfit. To me this false sentiment is a symptom of the Lucifer rebellion-- valuing the individual's rights over those of the entire species, which is actually illogical because with such a preference, ultimately even more individuals are adversely impacted.


I agree. I volunteer quil to cast the first stone, for the greater good. O:)


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So you would object to removing repeat violent sex offenders from the gene pool? I.e. not allowing them to breed?


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I wonder about the differences implied and implicit between "inferior" and "degenerate" as it applies to the topic. Are all such elements genetic? In what ways are critical thinking and spirit responsiveness connected to genetics vs. social priorities and prerogative? How might humanity "regenerate" and reinvigorate itself with science, education and within free will. The outcome of free will forever requires experience, maturity, and wisdom for ANY good results. While the deprivation of free will only hinders and obstructs experience, maturity, and wisdom as a function of free will itself. How much of degeneration is a function of personal and social prioritization within free will - do not behavioral choices (diet and exercise and prayer and worship for examples) have the potential to either degenerate or rejuvenate/regenerate?

Impatience seems to be a universal potential and problem. The process of regeneration will likely take as long as the process of degeneration....a long time frame indeed. In this chicken and egg dilemma I wonder if spiritual and behavioral priorities require the most immediate attention while eugenics is slowly, voluntarily, and free will chosen by more and more people over many generations for our regeneration....all while science delivers ever more tools and knowledge to prevent, treat, and cure some maladies of genetics while more enlightened choices intersect with that evolving potential?

A "nasty" paradox indeed!

8)


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MannyC wrote:
What would be helpful is a precise definition of superior and inferior characteristics in the human species. If this is a problem we are to resolve for ourselves then we must define the goal in exacting terms.

Please list the desirable human traits in one column and the undesirable in another column. I understand that you feel that something must be done and this is where we must start. Be careful not to include anything in the undesirable column that could describe you or me. :wink:

I agree that it must be discussed, but can we do it honestly and without the PC police? This is what you mean about a nasty topic, right?

Starting from the bottom first,

Yes, can we please have a respectful and honest conversation about this nasty topic. Thank you.

It's clear to me that the only thing that ought to be discussed publicly is that this endeavor MUST be carried out within the confines of our individual families. What we discuss here must be discreet and self-censored. Where the work should be done is with our children, nowhere else. Teach them, suggest to them that as parents it is our/their responsibility to direct and supervise them in whom our descendants ought to procreate with. Teach them that they should be respondent to the guidance that comes from within, however they see fit. But instruct them that they need to be careful, that it matters a lot who they marry. This way the less desirable, through many generations, will fall away if this seed implanted in the family culture becomes tradition. Make it a part of the conversation with our/their soon to be paired up kids, and so on.

Other than that, I don't think anything else is appropriate. All we can do is emphasize the positive to our kids. Tell them what they should be looking out for in a desirable mate. That way, the nasty topic will take care of itself.

I don't see how else it will progress. The quality of motherhood and fatherhood is the key.


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quil wrote:
So you would object to removing repeat violent sex offenders from the gene pool? I.e. not allowing them to breed?


No, I do not object at all. I just want you to do it. O:)


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fanofVan wrote:
I wonder about the differences implied and implicit between "inferior" and "degenerate" as it applies to the topic. Are all such elements genetic? In what ways are critical thinking and spirit responsiveness connected to genetics vs. social priorities and prerogative? How might humanity "regenerate" and reinvigorate itself with science, education and within free will. The outcome of free will forever requires experience, maturity, and wisdom for ANY good results. While the deprivation of free will only hinders and obstructs experience, maturity, and wisdom as a function of free will itself. How much of degeneration is a function of personal and social prioritization within free will - do not behavioral choices (diet and exercise and prayer and worship for examples) have the potential to either degenerate or rejuvenate/regenerate?

Impatience seems to be a universal potential and problem. The process of regeneration will likely take as long as the process of degeneration....a long time frame indeed. In this chicken and egg dilemma I wonder if spiritual and behavioral priorities require the most immediate attention while eugenics is slowly, voluntarily, and free will chosen by more and more people over many generations for our regeneration....all while science delivers ever more tools and knowledge to prevent, treat, and cure some maladies of genetics while more enlightened choices intersect with that evolving potential?

A "nasty" paradox indeed!

8)


Lots of great questions but quil and nodAmanaV want answers, and they want it now. 8)


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nodAmanaV wrote:
MannyC wrote:
What would be helpful is a precise definition of superior and inferior characteristics in the human species. If this is a problem we are to resolve for ourselves then we must define the goal in exacting terms.

Please list the desirable human traits in one column and the undesirable in another column. I understand that you feel that something must be done and this is where we must start. Be careful not to include anything in the undesirable column that could describe you or me. :wink:

I agree that it must be discussed, but can we do it honestly and without the PC police? This is what you mean about a nasty topic, right?

Starting from the bottom first,

Yes, can we please have a respectful and honest conversation about this nasty topic. Thank you.

It's clear to me that the only thing that ought to be discussed publicly is that this endeavor MUST be carried out within the confines of our individual families. What we discuss here must be discreet and self-censored. Where the work should be done is with our children, nowhere else. Teach them, suggest to them that as parents it is our/their responsibility to direct and supervise them in whom our descendants ought to procreate with. Teach them that they should be respondent to the guidance that comes from within, however they see fit. But instruct them that they need to be careful, that it matters a lot who they marry. This way the less desirable, through many generations, will fall away if this seed implanted in the family culture becomes tradition. Make it a part of the conversation with our/their soon to be paired up kids, and so on.

Other than that, I don't think anything else is appropriate. All we can do is emphasize the positive to our kids. Tell them what they should be looking out for in a desirable mate. That way, the nasty topic will take care of itself.

I don't see how else it will progress. The quality of motherhood and fatherhood is the key.


Thank you for that. I could not agree more. I take it that you believe this is what TUB would have us do and nothing of the population control some suggest. Yes, teach your children well. Unfortunately and paradoxically, the generation of Crosby, Stills and Nash began the downward spiral of the family unit.


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The problem with a "slow" approach implementing a fair and dignified eugenics program is that the later you address these problems, the more difficult the solution becomes. Adam and Eve were lamenting at their challenge and that was 35,000 years ago! Now we have 7 billion people on this planet as opposed to a few hundred million back then.

It's just like compound interest. The later you start, the more substantial your loss of potential earnings. Those early years are critical! Therefore it is very important that we as a species address this issue as soon as we can. And we can't even start getting there until "normal" people are willing to talk about it.

The problem with addressing this just in families, particularly reader families, is that only a small portion of families will impart this type of education to their children. It does nothing put the brakes on the propagation of anti-social types, who are less apt to conform and comply with social regulations to begin with.

This can only be effectively addressed at the group level. The point right now isn't to provide solutions. It's to get the conversation started out in the open without all the PC baggage so that great minds can begin to chew on the problem and get our species steered in the right direction.

In my opinion, this is one of the most pressing issues humanity faces today. It is more substantial than terrorism, nuclear war, even climate change. But everyone is too afraid to talk about it. I'd say it's the elephant in the room, but most people aren't even aware of the elephant! To stick your neck out on this subject takes real courage.


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I agree to the urgency and importance - both. I am just too dense to see through the probability of the misapplication of material authority in method and prioritization, humanistic prejudices as to who is defined as unworthy for propagation, and the social backlash due to historical record here in the states (Tuskegee for just one and slave rape before that, not to mention "strange fruit" and the KKK), Nazi Germany, China, and multiple other examples.

I just think science and educated free will, no matter how slow or cumbersome, will outpace political will and social collaboration. I did not mean to minimize the importance of the issue quil.

I fear that disease, starvation, and war may be the over population "solution" before humanity grows up enough to rationally and collectively face such issues. Unfortunately, population decimation does nothing for bio upliftment; it only address the compounding issue you raise.

But selective sterilization of violent criminals and I think reversible, temporary sterilization of youth are both good places to begin. Babies having babies is a form of family and social irrationality, even insanity. I gotta have a license to go fishing and demonstrate basic proficiency to drive....but not to parent? The family unit is itself in danger and we know it is the foundational building block of society. As families crumble, so does civilization's potential.

I'd prefer such topics be found in Abner's corner where serious students, rather than casual visitors, might invigorate discussion. Just one opinion....all around.

8)


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Ok, why don't we start with the text. I think the following was included by the revelators for a reason. You've read this in the book right?


10. Dealing with Crime

72:10.1 (818.4) The methods of this people in dealing with crime, insanity, and degeneracy, while in some ways pleasing, will, no doubt, in others prove shocking to most Urantians. Ordinary criminals and the defectives are placed, by sexes, in different agricultural colonies and are more than self-supporting. The more serious habitual criminals and the incurably insane are sentenced to death in the lethal gas chambers by the courts. Numerous crimes aside from murder, including betrayal of governmental trust, also carry the death penalty, and the visitation of justice is sure and swift.

72:10.2 (818.5) These people are passing out of the negative into the positive era of law. Recently they have gone so far as to attempt the prevention of crime by sentencing those who are believed to be potential murderers and major criminals to life service in the detention colonies. If such convicts subsequently demonstrate that they have become more normal, they may be either paroled or pardoned. The homicide rate on this continent is only one per cent of that among the other nations.

72:10.3 (818.6) Efforts to prevent the breeding of criminals and defectives were begun over one hundred years ago and have already yielded gratifying results. There are no prisons or hospitals for the insane. For one reason, there are only about ten per cent as many of these groups as are found on Urantia.



Isn't this a road map, an example, or at least a suggestion? Have the revelators presented this because they're trying to say this is the way "while in some ways pleasing" or that it's included just for shock value, to indicate that we ought to get moving, that it's okay. I will say this, I don't really see it as being that harsh. It's compassionate; a logical approach and pro-active. How long are we gonna wait around and let deranged individuals go about their insane business because they got "rights" while innocence and hard work is defiled, raped, tortured and murdered?

Is this where we should start? Should we implement what we have been told?


Last edited by nodAmanaV on Thu Aug 27, 2015 2:53 pm +0000, edited 3 times in total.

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