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One counter to my question as to the fairness of a child or whole generations because of one mistake-- that's exactly what the default of Adam and Eve boils down to. One act by Eve that snowballed. The Most Highs seemed to consider that one act bad enough to doom generation upon generation to deprivation of biologic uplift. We all suffer because of that one act.

Yet despite the gianormous consequences of that act, they did not terminate the pregnancy...


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quil wrote:
I also find moral and ethical issues to force a woman to bear a child that she simply has no capability to raise.


Remember that a pregnant women must bear a child sooner or later, dead or alive. There is no requirement that she raise a child born alive.

We must also be reminded that what God creates no man can destroy. A child has destiny whether aborted at 10 weeks gestation or lives to die in old age. Personality is never killed or murdered by man. Only a body, a form, can be turned to the dust from whence it came.

We are civilized because we have established rules for living. We do not murder without consequence. We simply have not extended that courtesy to the unborn person. Civilized society can survive for a while by excluding this population from its protections. But the question for civilized societies is, to what extent is this sustainable?

Another question is for the Life Carriers. Why is up to us to clean up the genetic mess of life plasm experimentation? And I mean no disrespect to our brothers on High, but why is it now up to a gene pool was failed, not only once, but was failed in remedial uplifting by Adam and Eves default? Are we better at experimenting with DNA than the designers of DNA??

My guess is that we are such a pitiful genetic bunch that Michael's compassion saw to that he bestow himself here as Jesus. The Spirits is what will save us in the end. We are not orphans because we have been adopted. We have Thought Adjusters. Where our genes fail us, Father and big Brother will make up for.

Believe that Spirit holds dominion over the body. I believe that The Spirits will guide us to Light and life and not genetic manipulation on our part.

Do not all of you believe that Spirit can alter genes? Life Carriers cannot interfere but Father has no such limitations. Thank God. :smile:


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Thank you Mannc this post fills me with a deepened solace and comfort.

When you are asking "How is this fair" to a mother who does not want the child... Do you not fill with grief over the prospect of that one (and the father of that one) being potentially oblitterated from the Book of Life? Do you not see that we are even as yet unborn souls harboured within the Mother Urantia???

Go now and pray for all mothers of the aborted, and their fathers, that they may grieve and feel sorrow for what has happened, and to beg for the mercy of those who think this is acceptible. Pray that they may bear witness of the same event which they have ordained for themself in the hereafter, that they may repent.

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I ask how is it fair to the child? To be born into an already broken home? To be born in a situation with high risk of being swept away by the unspeakable evils of this world? Lives filled with addiction to drugs, membership in gangs, slavery in prostitution? How did these people get where they are? For the vast majority, they didn't have a stable home. They were abandoned before they were born.

I bring this up not as hyperbole but to point out very real, and very sad facts. At the extreme, young girls and boys who are forced into sexual slavery, most starting out ages 12 to 14. Did you know over half don't even make it to age 25? There are anywhere from 20 to 35 million of them. Almost all from broken homes. Unwanted children treated as commodities. Sold off or abandoned into the market.

Chicago alone has over 100,000 gang members. LA has 120,000. All products of broken homes.

I'm sorry, but I think they were better off in the probation nurseries. Then they would have received the love of no less than the finaliters from day one! How salvageable are these souls now? This world sucks and I am inclined to support any mechanism that might spare them that fate. Just my opinion.

We are told war is in its own way a necessary form of population control. As is disease. Both are afflictions we fight. To me, aborton ranks lower than these evils. At least then children spared of prolonged suffering before these and other evils ever touch them.


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quil wrote:
I ask how is it fair to the child? To be born into an already broken home? To be born in a situation with high risk of being swept away by the unspeakable evils of this world? Lives filled with addiction to drugs, membership in gangs, slavery in prostitution? How did these people get where they are? For the vast majority, they didn't have a stable home. They were abandoned before they were born.

I bring this up not as hyperbole but to point out very real, and very sad facts. At the extreme, young girls and boys who are forced into sexual slavery, most starting out ages 12 to 14. Did you know over half don't even make it to age 25? There are anywhere from 20 to 35 million of them. Almost all from broken homes. Unwanted children treated as commodities. Sold off or abandoned into the market.

Chicago alone has over 100,000 gang members. LA has 120,000. All products of broken homes.

I'm sorry, but I think they were better off in the probation nurseries. Then they would have received the love of no less than the finaliters from day one! How salvageable are these souls now? This world sucks and I am inclined to support any mechanism that might spare them that fate. Just my opinion.

We are told war is in its own way a necessary form of population control. As is disease. Both are afflictions we fight. To me, aborton ranks lower than these evils. At least then children spared of prolonged suffering before these and other evils ever touch them.




Why not spare the entire human race of these woes? End it all now with a nuclear holocaust and we will all meet on the Mansion World #1 and have a party.

Do you not think that there is some value in living in this hell hole of a planet as you describe it? Besides, you have a choice. It's called suicide. The unborn child has been denied even the choice of ending its own life.

I, for one , think this is a wonderful life. I have a Father in heaven and brothers on Earth and His Fragment in my mind. I have the other Spirits at my side. What more can one ask for? :smile:


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My dear brothers and sisters - so many thoughts and feelings being felt and expressed on a most difficult and confusing issue...the suffering of others. I now hear more compassion and far less political rhetoric within a far wider spectrum of human ills and error.

I would only offer that it is right to follow the Master's example of compassion for the victims of evil and sin rather than voice blame for their sad state; that what we are for and DO in support of what we are for is more self-defining and more productive in result than to focus on what we are "against" and SAY. This is why we are called to serve and to love I think. Do we choose to spend our time and choices on working against evil and its sources? Or to serve the victims of evil and serve up truth, beauty, and goodness to all? Do we feed our own soul by our choices and bring forth the fruit of the love vine? Or do we allow fears and angers and blames and judgments of others' choices to darken our inner light?

I offer no judgment by these questions. To be conflicted and confused is our lot. To feel compassion is our call. To determine how best to serve compassionately is the challenge. Jesus was not naïve or dismissive of suffering and we should not be either. But neither did the Master allow his love to be diffused by blame or anxiety or doubts as to true progress and destiny and mercy and love to triumph over ALL such error, evil, and sin in our world.

It seems to me that we lose by what we oppose and we win by what we serve and support. Just thinking out loud. I appreciate the challenge to learn by the perspective of others.

8)

2:6.8 (41.6) God loves the sinner and hates the sin: such a statement is true philosophically, but God is a transcendent personality, and persons can only love and hate other persons. Sin is not a person. God loves the sinner because he is a personality reality (potentially eternal), while towards sin God strikes no personal attitude, for sin is not a spiritual reality; it is not personal; therefore does only the justice of God take cognizance of its existence. The love of God saves the sinner; the law of God destroys the sin. This attitude of the divine nature would apparently change if the sinner finally identified himself wholly with sin just as the same mortal mind may also fully identify itself with the indwelling spirit Adjuster. Such a sin-identified mortal would then become wholly unspiritual in nature (and therefore personally unreal) and would experience eventual extinction of being. Unreality, even incompleteness of creature nature, cannot exist forever in a progressingly real and increasingly spiritual universe.

2:6.9 (42.1) Facing the world of personality, God is discovered to be a loving person; facing the spiritual world, he is a personal love; in religious experience he is both. Love identifies the volitional will of God. The goodness of God rests at the bottom of the divine free-willness — the universal tendency to love, show mercy, manifest patience, and minister forgiveness.


Last edited by fanofVan on Thu Aug 20, 2015 6:24 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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MannyC wrote:
quil wrote:
I ask how is it fair to the child? To be born into an already broken home? To be born in a situation with high risk of being swept away by the unspeakable evils of this world? Lives filled with addiction to drugs, membership in gangs, slavery in prostitution? How did these people get where they are? For the vast majority, they didn't have a stable home. They were abandoned before they were born.

I bring this up not as hyperbole but to point out very real, and very sad facts. At the extreme, young girls and boys who are forced into sexual slavery, most starting out ages 12 to 14. Did you know over half don't even make it to age 25? There are anywhere from 20 to 35 million of them. Almost all from broken homes. Unwanted children treated as commodities. Sold off or abandoned into the market.

Chicago alone has over 100,000 gang members. LA has 120,000. All products of broken homes.

I'm sorry, but I think they were better off in the probation nurseries. Then they would have received the love of no less than the finaliters from day one! How salvageable are these souls now? This world sucks and I am inclined to support any mechanism that might spare them that fate. Just my opinion.

We are told war is in its own way a necessary form of population control. As is disease. Both are afflictions we fight. To me, aborton ranks lower than these evils. At least then children spared of prolonged suffering before these and other evils ever touch them.




Why not spare the entire human race of these woes? End it all now with a nuclear holocaust and we will all meet on the Mansion World #1 and have a party.

Do you not think that there is some value in living in this hell hole of a planet as you describe it? Besides, you have a choice. It's called suicide. The unborn child has been denied even the choice of ending its own life.

I, for one , think this is a wonderful life. I have a Father in heaven and brothers on Earth and His Fragment in my mind. I have the other Spirits at my side. What more can one ask for? :smile:

My opinion on this hot potato is that the degree of misfortune, struggle, affliction and so forth is the degree of the potential for success. If you're born with a silver spoon in the mouth and make it, no big surprise but if you were born without arms and legs, blind, deaf and also through a difficult family situation experience unspeakable things and in spite of this succeed anyways, what value will you have! I know this is why. This is why it is a part of the plan. Individuals who traverse life this way have a profound destiny. :D


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If you whom are enlightened with the truth cannot be decisive about the truth, how can you expect Society to find sela-acceptance??


After MannyC Laid his proof upon your conscience, I will lay one more:
Amos ben Josep passed just 3 weeks from the average age that Humans receive Thought Adjusters (normally). There is no good in speculating "what could have been", but you can be thankful that his father was there to receive custody of him after his transit to the finaliters sphere. thank you.

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quil wrote:
I ask how is it fair to the child? To be born into an already broken home? To be born in a situation with high risk of being swept away by the unspeakable evils of this world? Lives filled with addiction to drugs, membership in gangs, slavery in prostitution? How did these people get where they are? For the vast majority, they didn't have a stable home. They were abandoned before they were born.

I bring this up not as hyperbole but to point out very real, and very sad facts. At the extreme, young girls and boys who are forced into sexual slavery, most starting out ages 12 to 14. Did you know over half don't even make it to age 25? There are anywhere from 20 to 35 million of them. Almost all from broken homes. Unwanted children treated as commodities. Sold off or abandoned into the market.

Chicago alone has over 100,000 gang members. LA has 120,000. All products of broken homes.

I'm sorry, but I think they were better off in the probation nurseries. Then they would have received the love of no less than the finaliters from day one! How salvageable are these souls now? This world sucks and I am inclined to support any mechanism that might spare them that fate. Just my opinion.

We are told war is in its own way a necessary form of population control. As is disease. Both are afflictions we fight. To me, aborton ranks lower than these evils. At least then children spared of prolonged suffering before these and other evils ever touch them.


This is one struggle of modern times.
How about being born into a primitive race in the middle of an ice age?
Have some humans lost survival instincts?
Maybe so much government assistance prevents the process of adaptation?
Aren't extraordinary difficulties supposed to make us better, stronge, more clever and eventually more closer to God?
Why does this happen for some and not for others?
Why do some benefit from difficulty and others are consumed by it?
You got to want something better. It comes from within.


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nodAmanaV says above: "My opinion on this hot potato is that the degree of misfortune, struggle, affliction and so forth is the degree of the potential for success. If you're born with a silver spoon in the mouth and make it, no big surprise but if you were born without arms and legs, blind, deaf and also through a difficult family situation experience unspeakable things and in spite of this succeed anyways, what value will you have! I know this is why. This is why it is a part of the plan. Individuals who traverse life this way have a profound destiny." :D

Well said. There are those who say there is no god due to the fact of evil and suffering. Others have claimed that there is or may be a god but he/she/it is indifferent to mere mortals. But we are taught that evil and sin are the inherent potential and result of the great gift of free will - as expressed by the immature, the inexperienced, the self absorbed, and those minds still within the grip of primitive fears, anxieties, and the refusal or inability to love God and all others as our primary motivation for our free will choices.

To blame God for evil or to claim God is indifferent by the evidence of evil's existence is the pinnacle of misunderstanding and misplaced blame for any and all suffering. Suffering has but one source - bad choices. Bad choices bring bad results. Such blaming ones seek self absolution for their own volitional misdirection and immaturity and self absorption IMO. Or even more primitively, they blame luck or the devil for bad outcomes. This life and the one to come is all about recognition of cause and effect. God is the cause of love and mercy, mind and personality, time and space, and.....free will. Are we so dumb and ignorant and egotistical to blame God for the results of the gift of free will to such ones as us with so little experience in such a brief time on such a world?

We are born into two worlds at once. The material world and reality responds to the content and expression of love in one way and responds to self centered and fear based content in quite another. As is the individual mind so affected. The results of fear is more fear....and its consequences. The result of love is more love....and its fruits - to both the individual and the whole (as goes the parts, so goes the whole). It is this contrast and distinction that provides the fulcrum for making better choices for better reasons - both individually and collectively. We are told that those who reside wholly in the material world of animal mind and those who reside wholly in the spirit mind are not conflicted nor confused - all others of us are most definitely confused and conflicted in this dual nature and the struggle to transfer the seat of our personal identity. If we are not confused, we simply are not paying attention!

We are also taught that the truly "afflicted" among us are those who have never been afflicted by suffering. We learn thereby. Or we suffer until we do so learn....here....or yonder. Even those who suffer, not by their own choices but upon the choices of some other or all others, are provided the opportunity, within our/their suffering, to seek understanding and God and the Spirit which pours forth only love and mercy in their ministries of truth, beauty, and goodness. It is the soul that suffers and finds meaning and value thereby to suffer less and do so in recognition of and in the service of others' suffering that will be greatest among the finaliters.

It is a blessing to attend here with others who see suffering and work to relieve suffering in their compassion. Thank you.

8)

One of my favorite Tao/Zen stories on "luck":

Maybe so, Maybe not. We’ll see.
There is a Chinese Proverb that goes something like this…

A farmer and his son had a beloved stallion who helped the family earn a living. One day, the horse ran away and their neighbors exclaimed, “Your horse ran away, what terrible luck!” The farmer replied, “Maybe so, maybe not. We’ll see.”

A few days later, the horse returned home, leading a few wild mares back to the farm as well. The neighbors shouted out, “Your horse has returned, and brought several horses home with him. What great luck!” The farmer replied, “Maybe so, maybe not. We’ll see.”

Later that week, the farmer’s son was trying to break one of the mares and she threw him to the ground, breaking his leg. The villagers cried, “Your son broke his leg, what terrible luck!” The farmer replied, “Maybe so, maybe not. We’ll see.”

A few weeks later, soldiers from the national army marched through town, recruiting all the able-bodied boys for the army. They did not take the farmer’s son, still recovering from his injury. Friends shouted, “Your boy is spared, what tremendous luck!” To which the farmer replied, “Maybe so, maybe not. We’ll see.”

The moral of this story, is, of course, that no event, in and of itself, can truly be judged as good or bad, lucky or unlucky, fortunate or unfortunate, but that only time will tell the whole story. Additionally, no one really lives long enough to find out the ‘whole story,’ so it could be considered a great waste of time to judge minor inconveniences as misfortunes or to invest tons of energy into things that look outstanding on the surface, but may not pay off in the end.

The wiser thing, then, is to live life in moderation, keeping as even a temperament as possible, taking all things in stride, whether they originally appear to be ‘good’ or ‘bad.’ Life is much more comfortable and comforting if we merely accept what we’re given and make the best of our life circumstances. Rather than always having to pass judgement on things and declare them as good or bad, it would be better to just sit back and say, “It will be interesting to see what happens.”

118:10.9 (1305.4) Some of the amazingly fortuitous conditions occasionally prevailing on the evolutionary worlds may be due to the gradually emerging presence of the Supreme, the foretasting of his future universe activities. Most of what a mortal would call providential is not; his judgment of such matters is very handicapped by lack of farsighted vision into the true meanings of the circumstances of life. Much of what a mortal would call good luck might really be bad luck; the smile of fortune that bestows unearned leisure and undeserved wealth may be the greatest of human afflictions; the apparent cruelty of a perverse fate that heaps tribulation upon some suffering mortal may in reality be the tempering fire that is transmuting the soft iron of immature personality into the tempered steel of real character.

86:2.1 (951.3) Anxiety was a natural state of the savage mind. When men and women fall victims to excessive anxiety, they are simply reverting to the natural estate of their far-distant ancestors; and when anxiety becomes actually painful, it inhibits activity and unfailingly institutes evolutionary changes and biologic adaptations. Pain and suffering are essential to progressive evolution.

99:3.2 (1088.3) The kingdom of heaven is neither a social nor economic order; it is an exclusively spiritual brotherhood of God-knowing individuals. True, such a brotherhood is in itself a new and amazing social phenomenon attended by astounding political and economic repercussions.

99:3.3 (1088.4) The religionist is not unsympathetic with social suffering, not unmindful of civil injustice, not insulated from economic thinking, neither insensible to political tyranny. Religion influences social reconstruction directly because it spiritualizes and idealizes the individual citizen. Indirectly, cultural civilization is influenced by the attitude of these individual religionists as they become active and influential members of various social, moral, economic, and political groups.

99:3.4 (1088.5) The attainment of a high cultural civilization demands, first, the ideal type of citizen and, then, ideal and adequate social mechanisms wherewith such a citizenry may control the economic and political institutions of such an advanced human society.

156:5.20 (1740.7) The God-conscious mortal is certain of salvation; he is unafraid of life; he is honest and consistent. He knows how bravely to endure unavoidable suffering; he is uncomplaining when faced by inescapable hardship.

156:5.21 (1740.8) The true believer does not grow weary in well-doing just because he is thwarted. Difficulty whets the ardor of the truth lover, while obstacles only challenge the exertions of the undaunted kingdom builder.


140:5.16 (1575.1) 1. “Happy are they who mourn, for they shall be comforted.” So-called common sense or the best of logic would never suggest that happiness could be derived from mourning. But Jesus did not refer to outward or ostentatious mourning. He alluded to an emotional attitude of tenderheartedness. It is a great error to teach boys and young men that it is unmanly to show tenderness or otherwise to give evidence of emotional feeling or physical suffering. Sympathy is a worthy attribute of the male as well as the female. It is not necessary to be calloused in order to be manly. This is the wrong way to create courageous men. The world’s great men have not been afraid to mourn. Moses, the mourner, was a greater man than either Samson or Goliath. Moses was a superb leader, but he was also a man of meekness. Being sensitive and responsive to human need creates genuine and lasting happiness, while such kindly attitudes safeguard the soul from the destructive influences of anger, hate, and suspicion.

140:5.17 (1575.2) 2. “Happy are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.” Mercy here denotes the height and depth and breadth of the truest friendship — loving-kindness. Mercy sometimes may be passive, but here it is active and dynamic — supreme fatherliness. A loving parent experiences little difficulty in forgiving his child, even many times. And in an unspoiled child the urge to relieve suffering is natural. Children are normally kind and sympathetic when old enough to appreciate actual conditions.

8)


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It seems the basic response to the atrocities committed to children is the emphasis of the spirit in the phrase "the greatest affliction of the universe is to never have been afflicted."

While I agree it's the differential between ideal and reality that allows us to confront these evils and gives us opportunity to choose, I don't think the potential applies to all of us equally.

If that were not the case, then why did we need celestial intervention to develop basic culture to begin with? Culture is the necessary food to shape us into moral beings. We are told primitive men generally are so backward they do not have the potential to fuse with Adjusters. This implies that there is a baseline environmental requirement necessary to develop moral comprehension to enable us to be indwelt and develop a soul.

When a child is born into an environment without the necessary cultural support, where the culture has retrogressed into animal-like existence, we risk creating the same situation for them. I think about the child soldiers who may become so indoctrinated that any scrap of morality is completely eradicated by environmental conditions, and how they may lose the opportunity for eternal life because they knew no better than to live the animal existence.

Anyway, I have digressed. It's not like abortion and marriage fix these issues. They are products of a complex interplay of various factors. But I do think reproductive control in all forms can help reduce the chances that any given individual is born into these soul-destroying environments, and that for the species, this is a good thing.


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Nelsong wrote:
This is one struggle of modern times.
How about being born into a primitive race in the middle of an ice age?
Have some humans lost survival instincts?
Maybe so much government assistance prevents the process of adaptation?
Aren't extraordinary difficulties supposed to make us better, stronge, more clever and eventually more closer to God?
Why does this happen for some and not for others?
Why do some benefit from difficulty and others are consumed by it?
You got to want something better. It comes from within.



Well stated Nelsong. And let us all remember that deficiencies and cultural disadvantages are dealt with and remedied on Mansion World # 1. Time on this world truly heals all.

Although the act of terminating the unborn child is not destructive to the child's personality, it may have grave consequences to the personality of the perpetrators of the act, and society as a whole. Does abortion make us more civilized or less civilized? We are speaking to the perspective of this planet pre Light and Life. All tears are wiped dry by the grace of God in Eternity.

quil wrote:
While I agree it's the differential between ideal and reality that allows us to confront these evils and gives us opportunity to choose, I don't think the potential applies to all of us equally.


Maybe not now, but certainly later. And most certainly are we equal in potential in Eternity. :smile:


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MannyC wrote:
Another question is for the Life Carriers. Why is up to us to clean up the genetic mess of life plasm experimentation? And I mean no disrespect to our brothers on High, but why is it now up to a gene pool was failed, not only once, but was failed in remedial uplifting by Adam and Eves default? Are we better at experimenting with DNA than the designers of DNA??


Hi Louis, I certainly can't answer for the Life Carriers or Melchizedeks or the Most Highs... But it seems to me that the effects of Adam and Eve's default are essentially temporary. We did receive a sufficient contribution to ensure the survival and development of mankind (at least in those places of the Earth where the current biological levels can be preserved - which is absolutely not guaranteed of course). But there was no doubt a secondary reason for allowing 3/4 of the children of Adam and Eve to be removed from this planet during the evacuation of the First Eden. We're not exactly told by the revelators that it will be so, but it seems entirely fitting that once the world has turned the corner and the danger has passed of the world's civilizations becoming destroyed or deteriorating and real spiritual ideals begin infecting large amounts of inhabitants, that the Adamic children and their offspring may be transported to the Earth again to take place in the uplift of humanity.


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Riktare wrote:
MannyC wrote:
Another question is for the Life Carriers. Why is up to us to clean up the genetic mess of life plasm experimentation? And I mean no disrespect to our brothers on High, but why is it now up to a gene pool was failed, not only once, but was failed in remedial uplifting by Adam and Eves default? Are we better at experimenting with DNA than the designers of DNA??


Hi Louis, I certainly can't answer for the Life Carriers or Melchizedeks or the Most Highs... But it seems to me that the effects of Adam and Eve's default are essentially temporary. We did receive a sufficient contribution to ensure the survival and development of mankind (at least in those places of the Earth where the current biological levels can be preserved - which is absolutely not guaranteed of course). But there was no doubt a secondary reason for allowing 3/4 of the children of Adam and Eve to be removed from this planet during the evacuation of the First Eden. We're not exactly told by the revelators that it will be so, but it seems entirely fitting that once the world has turned the corner and the danger has passed of the world's civilizations becoming destroyed or deteriorating and real spiritual ideals begin infecting large amounts of inhabitants, that the Adamic children and their offspring may be transported to the Earth again to take place in the uplift of humanity.


I can only hope that you are right, Steve. I wonder if that uplifting will be by the good old fashion way of breeding. :wink:


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fanofVan wrote:
nodAmanaV says above: "My opinion on this hot potato is that the degree of misfortune, struggle, affliction and so forth is the degree of the potential for success. If you're born with a silver spoon in the mouth and make it, no big surprise but if you were born without arms and legs, blind, deaf and also through a difficult family situation experience unspeakable things and in spite of this succeed anyways, what value will you have! I know this is why. This is why it is a part of the plan. Individuals who traverse life this way have a profound destiny." :D

Well said. There are those who say there is no god due to the fact of evil and suffering. Others have claimed that there is or may be a god but he/she/it is indifferent to mere mortals. But we are taught that evil and sin are the inherent potential and result of the great gift of free will - as expressed by the immature, the inexperienced, the self absorbed, and those minds still within the grip of primitive fears, anxieties, and the refusal or inability to love God and all others as our primary motivation for our free will choices.

To blame God for evil or to claim God is indifferent by the evidence of evil's existence is the pinnacle of misunderstanding and misplaced blame for any and all suffering. Suffering has but one source - bad choices. Bad choices bring bad results. Such blaming ones seek self absolution for their own volitional misdirection and immaturity and self absorption IMO. Or even more primitively, they blame luck or the devil for bad outcomes. This life and the one to come is all about recognition of cause and effect. God is the cause of love and mercy, mind and personality, time and space, and.....free will. Are we so dumb and ignorant and egotistical to blame God for the results of the gift of free will to such ones as us with so little experience in such a brief time on such a world?

We are born into two worlds at once. The material world and reality responds to the content and expression of love in one way and responds to self centered and fear based content in quite another. As is the individual mind so affected. The results of fear is more fear....and its consequences. The result of love is more love....and its fruits - to both the individual and the whole (as goes the parts, so goes the whole). It is this contrast and distinction that provides the fulcrum for making better choices for better reasons - both individually and collectively. We are told that those who reside wholly in the material world of animal mind and those who reside wholly in the spirit mind are not conflicted nor confused - all others of us are most definitely confused and conflicted in this dual nature and the struggle to transfer the seat of our personal identity. If we are not confused, we simply are not paying attention!

We are also taught that the truly "afflicted" among us are those who have never been afflicted by suffering. We learn thereby. Or we suffer until we do so learn....here....or yonder. Even those who suffer, not by their own choices but upon the choices of some other or all others, are provided the opportunity, within our/their suffering, to seek understanding and God and the Spirit which pours forth only love and mercy in their ministries of truth, beauty, and goodness. It is the soul that suffers and finds meaning and value thereby to suffer less and do so in recognition of and in the service of others' suffering that will be greatest among the finaliters.

It is a blessing to attend here with others who see suffering and work to relieve suffering in their compassion. Thank you.

8)

One of my favorite Tao/Zen stories on "luck":

Maybe so, Maybe not. We’ll see.
There is a Chinese Proverb that goes something like this…

A farmer and his son had a beloved stallion who helped the family earn a living. One day, the horse ran away and their neighbors exclaimed, “Your horse ran away, what terrible luck!” The farmer replied, “Maybe so, maybe not. We’ll see.”

A few days later, the horse returned home, leading a few wild mares back to the farm as well. The neighbors shouted out, “Your horse has returned, and brought several horses home with him. What great luck!” The farmer replied, “Maybe so, maybe not. We’ll see.”

Later that week, the farmer’s son was trying to break one of the mares and she threw him to the ground, breaking his leg. The villagers cried, “Your son broke his leg, what terrible luck!” The farmer replied, “Maybe so, maybe not. We’ll see.”

A few weeks later, soldiers from the national army marched through town, recruiting all the able-bodied boys for the army. They did not take the farmer’s son, still recovering from his injury. Friends shouted, “Your boy is spared, what tremendous luck!” To which the farmer replied, “Maybe so, maybe not. We’ll see.”

The moral of this story, is, of course, that no event, in and of itself, can truly be judged as good or bad, lucky or unlucky, fortunate or unfortunate, but that only time will tell the whole story. Additionally, no one really lives long enough to find out the ‘whole story,’ so it could be considered a great waste of time to judge minor inconveniences as misfortunes or to invest tons of energy into things that look outstanding on the surface, but may not pay off in the end.

The wiser thing, then, is to live life in moderation, keeping as even a temperament as possible, taking all things in stride, whether they originally appear to be ‘good’ or ‘bad.’ Life is much more comfortable and comforting if we merely accept what we’re given and make the best of our life circumstances. Rather than always having to pass judgement on things and declare them as good or bad, it would be better to just sit back and say, “It will be interesting to see what happens.”

118:10.9 (1305.4) Some of the amazingly fortuitous conditions occasionally prevailing on the evolutionary worlds may be due to the gradually emerging presence of the Supreme, the foretasting of his future universe activities. Most of what a mortal would call providential is not; his judgment of such matters is very handicapped by lack of farsighted vision into the true meanings of the circumstances of life. Much of what a mortal would call good luck might really be bad luck; the smile of fortune that bestows unearned leisure and undeserved wealth may be the greatest of human afflictions; the apparent cruelty of a perverse fate that heaps tribulation upon some suffering mortal may in reality be the tempering fire that is transmuting the soft iron of immature personality into the tempered steel of real character.

86:2.1 (951.3) Anxiety was a natural state of the savage mind. When men and women fall victims to excessive anxiety, they are simply reverting to the natural estate of their far-distant ancestors; and when anxiety becomes actually painful, it inhibits activity and unfailingly institutes evolutionary changes and biologic adaptations. Pain and suffering are essential to progressive evolution.

99:3.2 (1088.3) The kingdom of heaven is neither a social nor economic order; it is an exclusively spiritual brotherhood of God-knowing individuals. True, such a brotherhood is in itself a new and amazing social phenomenon attended by astounding political and economic repercussions.

99:3.3 (1088.4) The religionist is not unsympathetic with social suffering, not unmindful of civil injustice, not insulated from economic thinking, neither insensible to political tyranny. Religion influences social reconstruction directly because it spiritualizes and idealizes the individual citizen. Indirectly, cultural civilization is influenced by the attitude of these individual religionists as they become active and influential members of various social, moral, economic, and political groups.

99:3.4 (1088.5) The attainment of a high cultural civilization demands, first, the ideal type of citizen and, then, ideal and adequate social mechanisms wherewith such a citizenry may control the economic and political institutions of such an advanced human society.

156:5.20 (1740.7) The God-conscious mortal is certain of salvation; he is unafraid of life; he is honest and consistent. He knows how bravely to endure unavoidable suffering; he is uncomplaining when faced by inescapable hardship.

156:5.21 (1740.8) The true believer does not grow weary in well-doing just because he is thwarted. Difficulty whets the ardor of the truth lover, while obstacles only challenge the exertions of the undaunted kingdom builder.


140:5.16 (1575.1) 1. “Happy are they who mourn, for they shall be comforted.” So-called common sense or the best of logic would never suggest that happiness could be derived from mourning. But Jesus did not refer to outward or ostentatious mourning. He alluded to an emotional attitude of tenderheartedness. It is a great error to teach boys and young men that it is unmanly to show tenderness or otherwise to give evidence of emotional feeling or physical suffering. Sympathy is a worthy attribute of the male as well as the female. It is not necessary to be calloused in order to be manly. This is the wrong way to create courageous men. The world’s great men have not been afraid to mourn. Moses, the mourner, was a greater man than either Samson or Goliath. Moses was a superb leader, but he was also a man of meekness. Being sensitive and responsive to human need creates genuine and lasting happiness, while such kindly attitudes safeguard the soul from the destructive influences of anger, hate, and suspicion.

140:5.17 (1575.2) 2. “Happy are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.” Mercy here denotes the height and depth and breadth of the truest friendship — loving-kindness. Mercy sometimes may be passive, but here it is active and dynamic — supreme fatherliness. A loving parent experiences little difficulty in forgiving his child, even many times. And in an unspoiled child the urge to relieve suffering is natural. Children are normally kind and sympathetic when old enough to appreciate actual conditions.

8)

Thank you Brad! :biggrin: That all rang together and sang like a symphony!

It is these types of things we need in the world more. Upliftment. Clarification. Encouragement, to replace fear with love. Appreciation, for discomfort and affliction. Yes it's a paradox, parabolic.

There is so much purpose in it all. Maybe the time is finally approaching for an understanding. A quality of thinking. :D It's Jesus' birthday! By golly!


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