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I was raised Roman Catholic. My godmother Mary Mastrogiacomo was born 9 Jan and I 9 October: 9 months apart. I have received many adjustments in terms of what I see in terms of human life:
http://yanclae.blogspot.com/2015/08/total-population.html

I had a dear friend, Sister April Elizabeth Czekala who lived 13 November 1987-13 August 2011. The period of the 9 months is one of the supreme adjustments in the human mind that helps restore the respect towards the sympathy and feminine nature of man, the temple of God.

Sister Lhasa de Sela has a brilliant story about how her Father Alejandro Sela remembers his experience of life in the womb: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9WtuuoaBgQ (soon this space will be too small). There is a writer "Grandma" Michelle Schuchman who recently published a book "From Conception to Birth", and while it is fiction, this too helped I to see even in further depth how life is acknowledge at the point of joining.

Although it is told in the UB that the Adjuster reception at the moment of first choice is the "Birth of Sentience", we should also be considerate to the moment of physical conception in the mother's womb, as there are many interwoven forces from the Architects, components of universal forces that conspire into the ideal career. But even the Old Testament Jeremiah 1:5 states "From my mothers womb he took my mind and started moulding me."

Why then, if we are given such clear facts, do we insist on denying the recognition of human life as being at the point of conception?

The Intimacy of relationship between father and child is restored in the Urantia Book, Joseph and Joshua (or Joshua and Ruth). It is not present in the Gospels, nor does it appear in the Qu'ran (Issa ben Maryam). The Large Nuclear family of Joseph and Mary, combined with said intimacy are sorely missed in the evolutionary religiouns.

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" Do not count your Chickens until they hatch "
If we use this standard, we should really consider ourselves as yet "unhatched" it is not until our names in the book of life are read that we are "Born in the Resurrection". Therefore, you have been given a choice of three standards of birth, which are alternative to moment you are "hatched":

1. The moment of Physical Concepcion
2. The moment of Choice and the beginning of Adjuster Guidance
3. The moment of Adjuster Fusion

But "Born in the Resurrection" would be another notable moment, akin to "hatching" out of your mother. It is a moment of hatching out of mother Urantia.

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Well Louis....it would appear that loucol, emanny, Johnnybones, MannyC, and you all agree....on everything!! Interesting to have so many voices in your choir all singing the same notes. I wonder why you change names so often and have two open registrations at the same time and post with multiple names on the same topic? Funny way to find "agreement". Oh well, guess that's part of your schtick......so be it. By the way, how many of you are there now?

:?: :wink:

I am quite confused regarding your position on women's status among primitives and how radical you find full equal standing as though this is some revolutionary and anti-evolutionary development when it is but the way of the universe - the natural order and the inevitability of progress.

Regarding birth control - the individual(s) qualified for free will choices are the individuals making the choice for themselves of course. The more educated the each and all, the better choices made thereby. You bring up Nazis and despotism but ignore the choice birth control gives to women and to families for self determination. You speak of depriving individuals control over their own choices by the elimination of all choices - just say no, eh? You've got a serious conspiracy complex hard at work and both those who do nothing and those who do something raise your ire....perplexing.

I'd appreciate some text supporting your claim that "the goal is self governing individuals". On what world and in what universe??!! Seriously....what book are you reading? From the material worlds all the way to Paradise there is process and procedure and structure and multiple layers of governance and specialization and hierarchy and leadership and differences of opinion and priority and strategy and tactic. Here's a link to a long topic on endless, universal bureaucracy - or government:

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=4962&hilit=bureaucracy

Civilization does not form and cannot exist without coordination and cooperation of the body of self governing individuals and the governance of those who are not self governing- the two are not oppositional nor contradictory - obviously. You would then be a "holy anarchist"? Individual maturity results in combined efforts for the common good and this is our destiny but evolutionary experience brings less than ideal results, especially early on.

And actually, our constitution does NOT provide for rule by majority or mob - we are a Republic where the mob chooses its leaders but our Constitution is designed to protect the individual and the minority FROM the mob. Our constitution well recognizes the lack of "self governing individuals" while protecting the individual's right of disagreement, dissent, and personal free will. I suggest you are the one in need of Constitutional review.

Do you think self governing individuals will all agree on objective, priority, strategy, tactic, timing, etc.?? Enter the value and importance of group governance even for so called self governing individuals.

Are you really going to attack Gabriel again??? What a dead horse.....but beat away on that corpse if you wish.

Oh to be so displeased and suspicious of everything. A pity really. Any good news or joy to share?? Is there any doubt to our destiny as the Shrine of Nebadon? Maybe it will all work out after all, no? Granny always said everything will be alright in the end...if it's not alright, then it's not the end. Lighten up Brother.

8)


Last edited by fanofVan on Tue Aug 18, 2015 3:00 pm +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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YSMAEL wrote:
Manny C wrote:
Quote:
"Reform" is the activist's buzz word for short circuiting an evolutionary process, exhibiting an utter lack of patience.


I think reform is integral part of the evolutionary process. There have been “sudden” episodes in the history of evolution. The insertion of revelations into our history was meant to accelerate the spiritual progress of the planet. These revelations had their ordained rules to follow and only when deviation from these rules that “short circuiting” the evolutionary process can happen. Short circuiting can only be done by the revelatory personality. It cannot be done by the people who are participants of the evolving process. Reforms by participating activists are good for the evolutionary process. Societal reforms starts with the reformed individual.


Personal reform is nonviolent. It is taking a good look at the person in the mirror. Social reform is necessarily violent. It comes about by force. The force of law with a government behind its enforcement. Or by the force of the Mob.


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Wasn't Jesus social reform non-violent? And Ghandi's? And MLK's? There was violence attended upon these social reformers but the reform which came was not favorable to the source of the violence, no?

Wrong again!

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"Louie Louie, oh no, said he gotta go" :mrgreen:


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Where is Ghandi when you need him.
Jesus is a given but I always took his reforms as very personal challenges that compel me to try in my own way to try to be like him - If I could only master one aspect of my personality before I leave Urantia I would be thrilled. This can be extraordinarily difficult and challenging. I just dont see his teaching as social reform directly. When we grow as a result of his gospel, social growth tends to move along.
MLK - ??? Im not so certain. Has any of his dream come true? He preached non-violence but is anybody singing that tune today? Maybe in Furgeson or Baltimore?
No reform that I can see from MLK but plenty of violence and maybe some residual dreaming. What happened just after he got the civil right legislation passed? He walked away from the process and Watts burned along with other cities. It still happens. What was the reform? I missed it.
Individuals do much better at learning to get along across racial lines.
Take the politically correct multiculturalism mandate - its a cesspool imho. Government preaches equality but has no understanding about its nature because seculars just dont get it. Equality without God as our source and destination is nonexistent. Possibly beings like Power Centers are really equal? But the Master Spirits put their spin on them too.
Governments of today are inept at making things better - politicians tend to be corrupt and power hungry. If an honest one comes along he immediately is a target for ouster.
Jesus personal reforms would really benefit secular politicians.
How could we trust a secular government to help organize a population to work toward real social evolution.
its not happening.


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140:8.10 (1580.5) Jesus was not, therefore, a political reformer. He did not come to reorganize the world

140:8.13 (1580.8] He made it clear that indiscriminate kindness may be blamed for many social evils. “Be as wise as serpents but as harmless as doves.”

140:8.18 (1581.5) Jesus would make all men Godlike and then stand by sympathetically while these sons of God solve their own political, social, and economic problems.

140:8.21 (1582.2) Jesus had little to say about the social vices of his day; seldom did he make reference to moral delinquency. He was a positive teacher of true virtue. He studiously avoided the negative method of imparting instruction; he refused to advertise evil. He was not even a moral reformer. He well knew, and so taught his apostles, that the sensual urges of mankind are not suppressed by either religious rebuke or legal prohibitions.

Just get with God.

3:2.2 (46.6) Within the bounds of that which is consistent with the divine nature, it is literally true that “with God all things are possible.”

196:1.3 (2090.4) Of all human knowledge, that which is of greatest value is to know the religious life of Jesus and how he lived it.


Last edited by nodAmanaV on Tue Aug 18, 2015 4:02 pm +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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nodAmanaV wrote:
140:8.10 (1580.5) Jesus was not, therefore, a political reformer. He did not come to reorganize the world; even if he had done this, it would have been applicable only to that day and generation. Nevertheless, he did show man the best way of living, and no generation is exempt from the labor of discovering how best to adapt Jesus’ life to its own problems. But never make the mistake of identifying Jesus’ teachings with any political or economic theory, with any social or industrial system.

140:8.13 (1580.8] He made it clear that indiscriminate kindness may be blamed for many social evils. The following day Jesus definitely instructed Judas that no apostolic funds were to be given out as alms except upon his request or upon the joint petition of two of the apostles. In all these matters it was the practice of Jesus always to say, “Be as wise as serpents but as harmless as doves.” It seemed to be his purpose in all social situations to teach patience, tolerance, and forgiveness.

140:8.18 (1581.5) Jesus would make all men Godlike and then stand by sympathetically while these sons of God solve their own political, social, and economic problems. It was not wealth that he denounced, but what wealth does to the majority of its devotees. On this Thursday afternoon Jesus first told his associates that “it is more blessed to give than to receive.”


nodAmanaV wrote:
140:8.21 (1582.2) Jesus had little to say about the social vices of his day; seldom did he make reference to moral delinquency. He was a positive teacher of true virtue. He studiously avoided the negative method of imparting instruction; he refused to advertise evil. He was not even a moral reformer. He well knew, and so taught his apostles, that the sensual urges of mankind are not suppressed by either religious rebuke or legal prohibitions. His few denunciations were largely directed against pride, cruelty, oppression, and hypocrisy.

Just get with God.

3:2.2 (46.6) Within the bounds of that which is consistent with the divine nature, it is literally true that “with God all things are possible.”

140:8.19 (1581.6) 5. Personal religion. You, as did his apostles, should the better understand Jesus’ teachings by his life. He lived a perfected life on Urantia, and his unique teachings can only be understood when that life is visualized in its immediate background. It is his life, and not his lessons to the twelve or his sermons to the multitudes, that will assist most in revealing the Father’s divine character and loving personality.

196:1.3 (2090.4) Of all human knowledge, that which is of greatest value is to know the religious life of Jesus and how he lived it.


Thank you for the quotes.
fanofVan wrote:
Wasn't Jesus social reform non-violent? And Ghandi's? And MLK's? There was violence attended upon these social reformers but the reform which came was not favorable to the source of the violence, no?

Wrong again!


Was Jesus a social reformer? And thank you for admitting to the violence. There is a price to be paid. Jesus was a willing subject to the violence. The others would have been content for others to suffer for the cause instead. And suffer they did. Jesus admitted that he did not come to bring peace, the others were fools to think they could.


fanofVan wrote:
I am quite confused regarding your position on women's status among primitives and how radical you find full equal standing as though this is some revolutionary and anti-evolutionary development when it is but the way of the universe - the natural order and the inevitability of progress.


I have no position on women's status, primitive or modern. As a man, I stand beside them as spiritual equals.


fanofVan wrote:
You speak of depriving individuals control over their own choices by the elimination of all choices - just say no, eh?


Saying "no" is a free will choice. Just as is saying "yes". These are our free will choices. We must live with our free will choices and suffer their consequences; and I don't mean maybe, baby. O:)


fanofVan wrote:
I'd appreciate some text supporting your claim that "the goal is self governing individuals". On what world and in what universe??!! Seriously....what book are you reading?


Why quote when I can say it in one word, Havona.


fanofVan wrote:
Civilization does not form and cannot exist without coordination and cooperation of the body of self governing individuals and the governance of those who are not self governing- the two are not oppositional nor contradictory - obviously. You would then be a "holy anarchist"?
Individual maturity results in combined efforts for the common good and this is our destiny but evolutionary experience brings less than ideal results, especially early on.


Why then, keep stating the obvious?


fanofVan wrote:
Are you really going to attack Gabriel again??? What a dead horse.....but beat away on that corpse if you wish.


Why project attack when no such attack is present?



fanofVan wrote:
Oh to be so displeased and suspicious of everything. A pity really. Any good news or joy to share?? Is there any doubt to our destiny as the Shrine of Nebadon? Maybe it will all work out after all, no? Granny always said everything will be alright in the end...if it's not alright, then it's not the end. Lighten up Brother.


I will borrow the quote provided by nodAmanaV.

nodAmanaV wrote:
140:8.21 (1582.2) Jesus had little to say about the social vices of his day; seldom did he make reference to moral delinquency. He was a positive teacher of true virtue. He studiously avoided the negative method of imparting instruction; he refused to advertise evil. He was not even a moral reformer. He well knew, and so taught his apostles, that the sensual urges of mankind are not suppressed by either religious rebuke or legal prohibitions. His few denunciations were largely directed against pride, cruelty, oppression, and hypocrisy.


Do you pity Jesus for his denunciations against pride, cruelty, oppression and hypocrisy? I can be as positive as the next person but we are on the topic of eugenics and abortion and what TUB infers about it.

Any racial pride out there?
Is there any cruelty to the unborn?
Is there oppression of the inferior class by the superior class?
Does the phrase, "for the common good" smack of hypocrisy?


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140:8.21 (1582.2) He refused to advertise evil.

Why are we spending so much time here on something negative? The list of things hypocritical, oppresive, and cruel is long. Why don't we look at the teachings of the UB and try to help each other discern better how to live correctly and set an example for our friends. Isn't that the most we can do? Live now as if already in heaven? Won't that cure all man's "ailments" eventually? Isn't it clear it's the only way?

It can only happen through one man and woman at a time - that's us. If we here in this forum pool our interest in the UB and support each other more, we might just push it all further ahead just a little bit, rather than argue about the current political muse of the day. There's enough bad news streaming out there. Let's make this a place for the good news. :D


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nodAmanaV wrote:
140:8.21 (1582.2) He refused to advertise evil.

Why are we spending so much time here on something negative? The list of things hypocritical, oppresive, and cruel is long. Why don't we look at the teachings of the UB and try to help each other discern better how to live correctly and set an example for our friends. Isn't that the most we can do? Live now as if already in heaven? Won't that cure all man's "ailments" eventually? Isn't it clear it's the only way?

It can only happen through one man and woman at a time - that's us. If we here in this forum pool our interest in the UB and support each other more, we might just push it all further ahead just a little bit, rather than argue about the current political muse of the day. There's enough bad news streaming out there. Let's make this a place for the good news. :D


OK :smile:


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nodAmanaV wrote:
140:8.21 (1582.2) He refused to advertise evil.

Why are we spending so much time here on something negative? The list of things hypocritical, oppresive, and cruel is long. Why don't we look at the teachings of the UB and try to help each other discern better how to live correctly and set an example for our friends. Isn't that the most we can do? Live now as if already in heaven? Won't that cure all man's "ailments" eventually? Isn't it clear it's the only way?

It can only happen through one man and woman at a time - that's us. If we here in this forum pool our interest in the UB and support each other more, we might just push it all further ahead just a little bit, rather than argue about the current political muse of the day. There's enough bad news streaming out there. Let's make this a place for the good news. :D


:idea: :smile: Well said...thank you.

195:5.12 (2076.3) As you view the world, remember that the black patches of evil which you see are shown against a white background of ultimate good. You do not view merely white patches of good which show up miserably against a black background of evil.

195:5.13 (2076.4) When there is so much good truth to publish and proclaim, why should men dwell so much upon the evil in the world just because it appears to be a fact? The beauties of the spiritual values of truth are more pleasurable and uplifting than is the phenomenon of evil.

195:5.14 (2076.5) In religion, Jesus advocated and followed the method of experience, even as modern science pursues the technique of experiment. We find God through the leadings of spiritual insight, but we approach this insight of the soul through the love of the beautiful, the pursuit of truth, loyalty to duty, and the worship of divine goodness. But of all these values, love is the true guide to real insight.
8)


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MannyC wrote:
nodAmanaV wrote:
140:8.21 (1582.2) He refused to advertise evil.

Why are we spending so much time here on something negative? The list of things hypocritical, oppresive, and cruel is long. Why don't we look at the teachings of the UB and try to help each other discern better how to live correctly and set an example for our friends. Isn't that the most we can do? Live now as if already in heaven? Won't that cure all man's "ailments" eventually? Isn't it clear it's the only way?

It can only happen through one man and woman at a time - that's us. If we here in this forum pool our interest in the UB and support each other more, we might just push it all further ahead just a little bit, rather than argue about the current political muse of the day. There's enough bad news streaming out there. Let's make this a place for the good news. :D


OK :smile:



Our Father in Heaven Is. :smile:


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Now for some glad tidings.

122:3.1 One evening about sundown, before Joseph had returned home, Gabriel appeared to Mary by the side of a low stone table and, after she had recovered her composure, said: “I come at the bidding of one who is my Master and whom you shall love and nurture. To you, Mary, I bring glad tidings when I announce that the conception within you is ordained by heaven, and that in due time you will become the mother of a son; you shall call him Joshua, and he shall inaugurate the kingdom of heaven on earth and among men. Speak not of this matter save to Joseph and to Elizabeth, your kinswoman, to whom I have also appeared, and who shall presently also bear a son, whose name shall be John, and who will prepare the way for the message of deliverance which your son shall proclaim to men with great power and deep conviction. And doubt not my word, Mary, for this home has been chosen as the mortal habitat of the child of destiny. My benediction rests upon you, the power of the Most Highs will strengthen you, and the Lord of all the earth shall overshadow you.”

This appearance of Gabriel to Mary occurred in Mid November, 8 BC. The conception of Jesus must have occurred within the week in a 38 gestation.

A conception ordained by heaven who's sex we are told is male and who is named Joshua. A child is conceived. How is that for good news?! :smile:


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I truly do not wish to fan the flame, but the preceding discussion seems to only reaffirm my conviction that a human being is worthwhile to the universe at the moment of conception. I even think that is when personality is bestowed. It seems most logical to me. That is the beginning a of a new being, so personality is prerequisite.

The government of the island nation on a neighboring planet executes its insane and its habitually criminal in gas chambers. We are told that while shocking to most of us, in some ways this is pleasing.

I think that assertion pretty much highlights the apparent conflict of values. On the one hand, we respect all life, all individuals. We confer upon all individuals a moral dignity. God is no respecter of persons.

But we are also told this sentiment can cloud our judgement for the good of the species and the planet.

I truly lament the fate of the human being who never had a chance. I abhor and detest the idea of treating life as a commodity. It is absolutely disgusting.

But if a child is born to a mother who does not want them, how is that fair to the child? Why is a life in the probation nursery considered worse than a life of rejection and potential to get sucked up into all the bad currents and streams that exist in this world?

I also find moral and ethical issues to force a woman to bear a child that she simply has no capability to raise. I find even more issue with the potential that by forcing this consequence upon one broken family, the rest of the generations of that family are likely also to suffer because of this one mistake. That "saved" child then is reared in a suboptimal environment, does not inherit good cultural values, does not subjugate themselves to voluntary reproductive controls, and the cycle repeats. Now we have more pain, more suffering, more individuals affected. The problem is exacerbated.

I agree these are two limited scenarios but they seem to make up the bulk of the users of early termination. That and the Chinese, who have nearly normalized the practice in accordance with their population control policies.


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