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YSMAEL wrote:
Johhnybones wrote:
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Perhaps the planet needs Epochal Revelation, but not the individual. The person has all they need in the Spirit ministries. Personal revelation is not what TUB is about.


TUB is a book. Planets cannot read. It is the individual person that can read. Transformed individuals collectively transform the planet.


Perhaps you could have correctly assumed that by "planet" I meant the planetary community as a whole. But thank you for the clarification. :roll:


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I agree with you YSMAEL that planets cannot read, but I do know of one that can sing. It orbits the Sun between Saturn and Neptune. :lol:

Peace and humor be with you


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quil wrote:
Caligastia wrote:
"quil" -- What "false conclusion" have I made? Please enlighten me? And, if possible, please at least have the decency to quote me correctly, because there are others here who can't read, and insist to tell me what I said by attempting to paraphrase what they understood that I said, and for the most part that is a big problem here. So, please tell me what conclusion or opinion which I have presented is "false"?

And rehash this entire thread? No. But there were some unaddressed comments you made at the beginning.



quil wrote:
Caligastia wrote:
although if one actually studies the entries in the UB regarding this character [Caligastia], one might find that initially he was just following orders, from the system authority, not much different than being in the military, and having to actualize orders as instructed, whether the officer agrees or disagrees with such orders.

False on two counts. First, Caligastia was not merely following orders. He made a willful choice to subvert universe authorities and declare himself “God of Urantia.” That is self-assertion, not humble obedience.


If I may indicate or readdress you claim is that because of the following UB narration you believe that “Caligastia” declared “himsalf ‘God of Urantia.’” Okay, let’s examine the quote?
Quote:
(610.1) 53:8.5 Caligastia was recognized by the Son of Man as the technical Prince of Urantia up to near the time of his death. Said Jesus: “Now is the judgment of this world; now shall the prince of this world be cast down.” And then still nearer the completion of his lifework he announced, “The prince of this world is judged.” And it is this same dethroned and discredited Prince who was once termed “God of Urantia.”


The UB narration above uses quotes from the Bible to imply that “Jesus” was implying these statements as the Prince of Urantia? But if we look at the passages from the Bible where these quotes were taken we may see that there was a different meaning, but if you don’t see it that way, then how am I to argue with the fourth epochal revelation, or that based on this UB quote, even questions the presentation of the “fourth.” Plus at the time of these notations from the Bible “Jesus” had been proclaimed the “Prince of Urantia”.

Quote:
(1512.5) 136:3.1 Jesus had endured the great temptation of his mortal bestowal before his baptism when he had been wet with the dews of Mount Hermon for six weeks. There on Mount Hermon, as an unaided mortal of the realm, he had met and defeated the Urantia pretender, Caligastia, the prince of this world. That eventful day, on the universe records, Jesus of Nazareth had become the Planetary Prince of Urantia. And this Prince of Urantia, so soon to be proclaimed supreme Sovereign of Nebadon, now went into forty days of retirement to formulate the plans and determine upon the technique of proclaiming the new kingdom of God in the hearts of men.

(1512.6) 136:3.2 After his baptism he entered upon the forty days of adjusting himself to the changed relationships of the world and the universe occasioned by the personalization of his Adjuster. During this isolation in the Perean hills he determined upon the policy to be pursued and the methods to be employed in the new and changed phase of earth life which he was about to inaugurate.


It is easy for me to remember the exact day and hour of Jesus’ baptism, because that is my birthday as well, but I was born at midnight and He was baptized at Noon. So, let’s continue.

Quote:
John 12:(27-36) American King James Version (AKJV)
(27) Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I to this hour. (28) Father, glorify your name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again. (29) The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spoke to him. (30) Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes. (31) Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. (32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to me. (33) This he said, signifying what death he should die. (34) The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ stays for ever: and how say you, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man? (35) Then Jesus said to them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness come on you: for he that walks in darkness knows not where he goes. (36) While you have light, believe in the light, that you may be the children of light. These things spoke Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.


“Jesus Predicts His Death” and it is described in the Bible whereas knowing He was “the prince of this world” the people would cast Him out, or as we know, crucified, and He proclaimed that this must be for the peoples sakes.

Quote:
John 16:(5-15) King James Version (KJV)
(5) But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asks me, Where go you? (6) But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. (7) Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send him to you. (8) And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: (9) Of sin, because they believe not on me; (10) Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and you see me no more; (11) Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. (12) I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. (13) However, when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come. (14) He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it to you. (15) All things that the Father has are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall show it to you.


“(8) And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:”; Jesus was talking about “The Spirit of Truth”, and that “The spirit of Truth” would, or could not come until He departed, so that He could send the “Spirit”. In regards “of judgement” was His reference the He being falsely judged by the people.
Then it should be noted that it was “Daligastia” who proclaimed “Caligastia” “God of Urantia”, I cannot find that it was “Caligastia” who “declare himself”, as you said, anywhere in the UB, but that’s today. I’m not sure why “Daligastia” would make such a proclaimation?

Quote:
(755.6) 67:2.4 Daligastia formally proclaimed Caligastia “God of Urantia and supreme over all.” With this proclamation before them, the issues were clearly drawn; and each group drew off by itself and began deliberations, discussions destined eventually to determine the fate of every superhuman personality on the planet.


In conjunction with your “first” statement where you questioned my preview that “one might find that initially he was just following orders” where if we were to actually study the administrative structure of a planet from the “Planetary Princes” required, taught or instructed methodology, we may presume something different, so with your next statement below, along with your “first”, let’s take a look.

quil wrote:
Second, Lucifer’s declaration was in every respect illegal. In my country’s military (the USA), an officer is prohibited from following an illegal order, even if he or she agrees with it. “I was just following orders” is not a valid excuse when the order is illegal. If this were the case, then there would not have been nearly as many hangings at Nuremberg.


Quote:
2. Planetary Administration

(573.2) 50:2.1 All Planetary Princes are under the universe administrative jurisdiction of Gabriel, the chief executive of Michael, while in immediate authority they are subject to the executive mandates of the System Sovereigns.


I don’t think that the presentation above needs much clarification as to the hierarchy which a Planetary Prince is subject too.

Quote:
(573.3) 50:2.2 The Planetary Princes may at any time seek the counsel of the Melchizedeks, their former instructors and sponsors, but they are not arbitrarily required to ask for such assistance, and if such aid is not voluntarily requested, the Melchizedeks do not interfere with the planetary administration. These world rulers may also avail themselves of the advice of the four and twenty counselors, assembled from the bestowal worlds of the system. In Satania these counselors are at present all natives of Urantia. And there is an analogous council of seventy at the constellation headquarters also selected from the evolutionary beings of the realms.

(573.4) 50:2.3 The rule of the evolutionary planets in their early and unsettled careers is largely autocratic. The Planetary Princes organize their specialized groups of assistants from among their corps of planetary aids. They usually surround themselves with a supreme council of twelve, but this is variously chosen and diversely constituted on the different worlds. A Planetary Prince may also have as assistants one or more of the third order of his own group of sonship and sometimes, on certain worlds, one of his own order, a secondary Lanonandek associate.


Being that the Planetary Prices are instructed and sponsored by “the Melchizedeks”, and that when the UB indicates that this “rule” of the Planetary Prince “largely” has been “instructed” in an “autocratic” “rule” it would seem that the normal process of ruling the enhabitants of an “evolutionary planet” would be by “absolute” dominance, where as defined “autocratic”, would subject rule as “tyrannical; despotic; domineering”. So, by definition, it would seem that by Caligastia’s “betrayal” to the standard form or method of governing, would or might indicate that his siding with Lucifer’s “Declaration of Liberty,” but this liberty would entail what, the secession of “autocratic” “rule”, of the planetary inhabitants? Would this indicate that Caligastia was in agreement that the method of “tyrannical; despotic; domineering” rule, was maybe, inhumane? I’m not sure, but based on one word, it might be possible and or probable? We also know that the physical forms used by Claigastia’s Staff, who are still resident on Jerusem are being kept in some kind of stasis, well at least those who did not go back, and I wonder if they were told of what might occur with their souls, if something went wrong? Would they also be executed depending on a verdict of death? But an autocratic government or administration wouldn’t care, would they?

Quote:
(573.5) 50:2.4 The entire staff of a world ruler consists of personalities of the Infinite Spirit and certain types of higher evolved beings and ascending mortals from other worlds. Such a staff averages about one thousand, and as the planet progresses, this corps of helpers may be increased up to one hundred thousand or more. At any time need is felt for more helpers, the Planetary Princes have only to make request of their brothers, the System Sovereigns, and the petition is granted forthwith.


In regards to following orders, would not having to ask or petition, indicate that there is an order to follow, and even though most petitions are “granted forthwith”, being that someone must grant, indicates that a chain of succession.

Quote:
(573.6) 50:2.5 Planets vary greatly in nature and organization and in administration, but all provide for tribunals of justice. The judicial system of the local universe has its beginnings in the tribunals of a Planetary Prince, which are presided over by a member of his personal staff; the decrees of such courts reflect a highly fatherly and discretionary attitude. All problems involving more than the regulation of the planetary inhabitants are subject to appeal to the higher tribunals, but the affairs of his world domain are largely adjusted in accordance with the personal discretion of the prince.

Well we know that the Planetary Prince has little ability as to his “personal discretion” regarding the planet, because if he agrees with a different policy that does not meet with that “autocratic” form of government, you are called a traitor to the Dominion.

Quote:
(574.1) 50:2.6 The roving commissions of conciliators serve and supplement the planetary tribunals, and both spirit and physical controllers are subject to the findings of these conciliators. But no arbitrary execution is ever carried out without the consent of the Constellation Father, for the “Most Highs rule in the kingdoms of men.”

So, if the “Most Highs rule …”, then what is left for the Planetary Prices to do, but follow orders? And then there is the following UB quote, which refines statements to exceed others:
Quote:
(491.13) 43:5.17 Every quarantined or isolated world has a Vorondadek Son acting as an observer. He does not participate in planetary administration except when ordered by the Constellation Father to intervene in the affairs of the nations. Actually it is this Most High observer who “rules in the kingdoms of men.” Urantia is one of the isolated worlds of Norlatiadek, and a Vorondadek observer has been stationed on the planet ever since the Caligastia betrayal. When Machiventa Melchizedek ministered in semimaterial form on Urantia, he paid respectful homage to the Most High observer then on duty, as it is written, “And Melchizedek, king of Salem, was the priest of the Most High.” Melchizedek revealed the relations of this Most High observer to Abraham when he said, “And blessed be the Most High, who has delivered your enemies into your hand.”

So, it would seem that as from the onset of the rebellion, everything which was done, was allowed by the “Constellation Father” through the execution of “Most High observer”, where those things which were allowed, must have been in cooperation with the “autocratic” mindset of the Administration of the System.

Quote:
(574.2) 50:2.7 The controllers and transformers of planetary assignment are also able to collaborate with angels and other orders of celestial beings in rendering these latter personalities visible to mortal creatures. On special occasions the seraphic helpers and even the Melchizedeks can and do make themselves visible to the inhabitants of the evolutionary worlds. The principal reason for bringing mortal ascenders from the system capital as a part of the staff of the Planetary Prince is to facilitate communication with the inhabitants of the realm.


quil wrote:
Caligastia wrote:
… Nevertheless, to your points made regarding “Caligastia”, you are correct in that the Urantia Book portrays him as a “betrayer”, but the question is a “betrayer” to what? Where, it would be inappropriate for the authors to present all of the information behind the “betrayal” but, does setup certain evidences which just might indicate that those higher-ups may have set him and Adam and Eve up for default, having assigned them to an impossible task, whereby being destined to fail.

False on two more counts. It is plainly obvious that Caligastia was a betrayer of the universe sovereignty of Michael. There is no ambiguity there.

It is false that Adam and Eve were setup to fail. That is a suspicious and subversive assertion you are making. They were setup to succeed in the most challenging of circumstance. That they did not succeed is not necessarily evidence that no Adam and Eve would ever have succeeded. It is simply a demonstration that that pair was ultimately not up to the task.


Okay, I understand your premise above, but when someone is given a task to perform, and possibly or probably not been given all information needed to complete that task, would place any blame back to the instruction or instructors.

Quote:
(846.3) 75:8.4 In estimating the results of the Adamic mission on your world, justice demands the recognition of the condition of the planet. Adam was confronted with a well-nigh hopeless task when, with his beautiful mate, he was transported from Jerusem to this dark and confused planet. But had they been guided by the counsel of the Melchizedeks and their associates, and had they been more patient, they would have eventually met with success. But Eve listened to the insidious propaganda of personal liberty and planetary freedom of action. She was led to experiment with the life plasm of the material order of sonship in that she allowed this life trust to become prematurely commingled with that of the then mixed order of the original design of the Life Carriers which had been previously combined with that of the reproducing beings once attached to the staff of the Planetary Prince.

Okay, Eve was, as you say “ultimately not up to the task”, and she and Adam were left hanging by the “Melchizedeks”, and it would seem that Eve, at least knew “to experiment with the life plasm of the material order of sonship”, this might indicate needing to find out what she was working with, after the excessive experimentation of the “Life Carriers” almost one million years prior to being stations on Urantia. I wonder who told her what to look for because had she had known in advance as to the results of experimentation of the “Life Carriers” and what the “Melchizedeks” did for about five hundred thousand years prior to the coming of the Planetary Prince, where the “Melchizedeks” seemed to dessert them like rates leaving a sinking ship, without explanation and information, just a warning, to not listen to any “propaganda”, sounds a little suspicious to me. At least the authors had the decency to indicate that “justice demands the recognition”, where it would seem that there might have been an injustice here presented.

Quote:
(851.4) 76:4.6 The Adamic children were usually Adjuster indwelt since they all possessed undoubted survival capacity. These superior offspring were not so subject to fear as the children of evolution. So much of fear persists in the present-day races of Urantia because your ancestors received so little of Adam’s life plasm, owing to the early miscarriage of the plans for racial physical uplift.

(851.5) 76:4.7 The body cells of the Material Sons and their progeny are far more resistant to disease than are those of the evolutionary beings indigenous to the planet. The body cells of the native races are akin to the living disease-producing microscopic and ultramicroscopic organisms of the realm. These facts explain why the Urantia peoples must do so much by way of scientific effort to withstand so many physical disorders. You would be far more disease resistant if your races carried more of the Adamic life.

(851.6) 76:4.8 After becoming established in the second garden on the Euphrates, Adam elected to leave behind as much of his life plasm as possible to benefit the world after his death. Accordingly, Eve was made the head of a commission of twelve on race improvement, and before Adam died this commission had selected 1,682 of the highest type of women on Urantia, and these women were impregnated with the Adamic life plasm. Their children all grew up to maturity except 112, so that the world, in this way, was benefited by the addition of 1,570 superior men and women. Though these candidate mothers were selected from all the surrounding tribes and represented most of the races on earth, the majority were chosen from the highest strains of the Nodites, and they constituted the early beginnings of the mighty Andite race. These children were born and reared in the tribal surroundings of their respective mothers.

If Adam and Eve’s default was the direct commingling Urantia races, then they did it again, 1,682 times, because they wanted to compound their default that many times? Please, give me a break, and wake up to what is being introduced in the text. Why, be so bold as to introduce a mistake, over again? Evidentially, the conditions were found to be warranted, with no help from outside of the planet.

quil wrote:
Caligastia wrote:
But why send the “Melchizedek observers,” instead of sending a “Planetary Prince”? Maybe there were thinks going on, on Urantia, which was out of the ordinary, like genetic experimentation which went awry, which required some cleanup, possibly to correct some mistakes which were made?

What exactly are you intimating here? Mass extermination at the hands of the Melchizedeks? The insinuation is ridiculous, and nonfactual, therefore false.


If you have read my previous presentation, it might indicate or present some answers, but I am not insinuating anything, other than an examination for the presented evidence or the lack of it, one must make up their own mind as to what may have happened, because we are not told or given the facts. Sometimes what is not said in conjunction with what was said, can present many possible pictures, which can be taken any way. So, by not presenting the facts, one can assume anything, with what remains, or: “when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"


quil wrote:
Caligastia wrote:
So, who is at fault here, if we humans are a byproduct of genetic experimentation? And, it would seem that someone hide this from many personalities who might not have been willing to attempt applying the so called “normal plan” which had been proven elsewhere, to work, but was doomed from the get go, on Urantia. In this case, one might have to through away the guide book and write a new one. Not to mention what we humans have to go through to correct the problems created by others who could not wait for the normal plan of evolution?

All this tells me is that it would seem that we are on our own, until someone gets around to help use with information that will alleviate our own pain and suffering. And then to blame everything on a rebellion, which everyone knew that it would cause a quarantine of this planet and others unfortunate to be an experimental planet. At least we were quarantined before we could infect any other poor unfortunate souls.

More suspicion and intimation. Let me get this straight, as others have tried, somewhere along the line someone messed up on this life experiment world and initiated one vast conspiracy to cover it up and blamed our poor Planetary Prince and unfortunate Adam and Eve as part of the cover up.

That would be a MASSIVE conspiracy. And it would deal with the celestials, not us. If we’re their experiment, why on earth would they even give us any information at all? It makes no sense and is completely inconsistent with how Jesus lived and presented truths to us prior to TUB!

I’ve underlined the specifics which you ask, and to your last you, which I’m not sure of your wording in that why ask as to “presented truths” “prior to TUB”, (?) are you attempting to compare non-TUB Jesus stories with those presented in such a way as has been modernized for our better understanding in the TUB, where you did not place a question make after that statement but did on the prior sentence? What does one have to do with the other? If you are referencing the fourth book of the TUB, then one must remember that it was an afterthought, or addendum to the prior three books which were presented differently but not necessarily that unusual if one really examines the people associated with it and their prior religious roots, and as to the Jesus papers, that complete section was found type printed on someone’s desk, somewhat ready for publishing.
Then why would “celestials” or little green-blue men, tell us through the Urantia Book that we are an experiment? I’m not sure of exactly why, but maybe they can do no more for us without us taking an active part in the experiment? However the one thing that I do know is what the following UB passages say regarding being an “experimental planet”, which I really don’t understand why it is that I need to present this information to those who think they know every bloody thing that was intended to be presented in the Urantia Book, simple brilliant mines.

Quote:
(447.3) 40:5.18 The unnumbered series. These narratives cannot possibly embrace all of the fascinating variations in the evolutionary worlds. You know that every tenth world is a decimal or experimental planet, but you know nothing of the other variables that punctuate the processional of the evolutionary spheres. There are differences too numerous to narrate even between the revealed orders of living creatures as between planets of the same group, but this presentation makes clear the essential differences in relation to the ascension career. And the ascension career is the most important factor in any consideration of the mortals of time and space.

Quote:
(565.12) 49:5.11 Normal adjustments to planetary conditions follow the general physical patterns previously considered. The worlds of the nonbreathers typify the radical or extreme adjustment, but other types are also included in this group. Experimental worlds are usually ideally adapted to the typical life forms, and on these decimal planets the Life Carriers attempt to produce beneficial variations in the standard life designs. Since your world is an experimental planet, it differs markedly from its sister spheres in Satania; many forms of life have appeared on Urantia that are not found elsewhere; likewise are many common species absent from your planet.


Quote:
(1189.1) 108:3.5 It is interesting to note that local universe inspectors always address themselves, when carrying out a planetary examination, to the planetary chief of Thought Adjusters, just as they deliver charges to the chiefs of seraphim and to the leaders of other orders of beings attached to the administration of an evolving world. Not long since, Urantia underwent such a periodic inspection by Tabamantia, the sovereign supervisor of all life-experiment planets in the universe of Nebadon. And the records reveal that, in addition to his admonitions and indictments delivered to the various chiefs of superhuman personalities, he also delivered the following acknowledgment to the chief of Adjusters, whether located on the planet, on Salvington, Uversa, or Divinington, we do not definitely know, but he said:

(1189.2) 108:3.6 “Now to you, superiors far above me, I come as one placed in temporary authority over the experimental planetary series; and I come to express admiration and profound respect for this magnificent group of celestial ministers, the Mystery Monitors, who have volunteered to serve on this irregular sphere. No matter how trying the crises, you never falter. Not on the records of Nebadon nor before the commissions of Orvonton has there ever been offered an indictment of a divine Adjuster. You have been true to your trusts; you have been divinely faithful. You have helped to adjust the mistakes and to compensate for the shortcomings of all who labor on this confused planet. You are marvelous beings, guardians of the good in the souls of this backward realm. I pay you respect even while you are apparently under my jurisdiction as volunteer ministers. I bow before you in humble recognition of your exquisite unselfishness, your understanding ministry, and your impartial devotion. You deserve the name of the Godlike servers of the mortal inhabitants of this strife-torn, grief-stricken, and disease-afflicted world. I honor you! I all but worship you!”


And as to your supposition as to putting words into my mouth, or misunderstanding by narration which took the form of questions, I did not imply a “conspiracy” or “cover up” because what I presented came from the UB, and those specific narrations do not specify specific facts, but in their lack of specifics would present questions, based on lack of mercy which is presented as accusations. So, it would seem that many are attracted to foster as a response “evil for evil” rather than applying “good for evil”, can you not see any “good” in anyone because the “evil” which attracts your curiosity blinds one from seeing “good”? As we are told the only way to overcome “evil” is to apply “good”, yet for some reason I see only “evil” being applied to “evil” suppositions and misinterpretations.

quil wrote:
Caligastia wrote:
Now keep in mind that what I am presenting here is an example to possible “hidden keys” presented in the Urantia Book, where they would not be “secrets” but, methods of constructing a narration which can present multiple points of information as can be interpreted by an interested reader, when they question the way text is presented, and how context can be used to create in-depth writing. However, this would all be in vain, for those who just don’t care about anything other than their own perspective.

Nonsense! What you are presenting are conspiracy theories, plain and simple. Your assertions are inconsistent with the direct statements made with in the text, namely the purpose of the authoritative elimination of error. The authors would not include information then turn around an contradict themselves with supposed “hidden keys.” It’s just more baloney spewing forth from your fingers.

I’m sorry that what I presented is over your head, but I presented possible examples, and if you think that there are secrets in this universe then you may have skipped over the over 200 words “secret(s)” used in the UB but why should I think you capable of even opening you mind to possibilities or probabilities that may be presented between the lines of the Urantia Book. I only presented an example, I didn’t present what I actually found, but it would be just a waste of time to think that might be solutions to problems faced by science today, so I guess that the confusion on this experimental planet will just have to continue.

quil wrote:
Caligastia wrote:
Which might infer a question as to why where these two groups, in their entirety, lost to rebellion? Was there specific information which they had or retained which would make them think that they might continue their work, for whatever reason, they may have had, maybe to better facilitate their studies and research into various issues that they may have found out.

I see, so EVERY soul associated in the rebellion was actually a hero. We got the whole thing flipped on its head. All heroes in the story are actually villains, and all villains are heroes. So, everyone listen up, be wary of that Jesus fella. I guess this does fall in line with some of messages of the atheists.

OK, so I think you get my drift. Brad and others do a fine job of revealing flaws in your thinking. I do not need to rehash them.


Yes I would, “be wary of that Jesus fella” because from what I heard He will come like a thief in the night and you will never know when He returns, and for what reason? And yes I get your drift, you don’t need to rehash, anything because a person who thinks in a single dimension, would not be able to reveal any flaws in thinking from a three or higher dimensional thought process. However, it's not about you or Brad or some others, it's always been and always will be about the kids today, because they have, for the most part exceeded most normal thinking.

quil wrote:
Caligastia wrote:
"quil" -- I agree that many here, have responded based on fear, but what fear would they have, are you indicating that I have brought up some form of truth, which jeopardies what is in the text of the Urantia Book?

No. All you offer up is fear, uncertainty, and doubt. None of these are divine qualities. My motivation to respond is more out of pity than anything else. If a child keeps calling a car a cat, they ought to be corrected, no?

I think you are bitter about your life experiences, but do not want to jump fully into the deep end and reject God, so you aim just a little lower and channel that disappointment and fear into a pathetic attempt to destroy this beautiful work and mar the minds of sincere readers.
[. . .]

If a color blind person was taught that, red is green, from another color blind person who thinks, or was taught that, blue is green, then how can one teach the other what is [REaD] right or wrong, until all truth is presented as black and white, with a variety of gray shades, in between which may represent a rainbow of colors. Just as the blind can lead the blind, when they all live in darkness, but once they are brought into the light what will each say is the truth, for the truth is held by each as they see it, but what they see may not be what another sees in that light. So, being blinded by the brilliance of that truth from the light, many will cover their eyes to return to the darkness, which they are accustomed.
Every reader, can read to their ability to understand, from their experience or intellect, but when those who present and force their own experiential and intellectual understanding on others, without the opportunity to present optional viewpoints, will one reader teach another to mimic or accept a cloned experience and intellect, forcing many to become one in error or truth. But, being allowed to do so will only create additional confusion because experience and intellect are unique to each.
So, you may think what you will, as long as you give others the same consideration, that way they will have an option to choose from.


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Cal wrote:

Yes I would, “be wary of that Jesus fella” because from what I heard He will come like a thief in the night and you will never know when He returns, and for what reason? And yes I get your drift, you don’t need to rehash, anything because a person who thinks in a single dimension, would not be able to reveal any flaws in thinking from a three or higher dimensional thought process. However, it's not about you or Brad or some others, it's always been and always will be about the kids today, because they have, for the most part exceeded most normal thinking.



Normally, thinking is enhanced when faith is chosen wholeheartedly. Faithful thinking is always focused on selflessly seeking and then doing the will of the Father, instead of thinking about asking unnecessary questions.


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nodAmanaV wrote:
Normally, thinking is enhanced when faith is chosen wholeheartedly. Faithful thinking is always focused on selflessly seeking and then doing the will of the Father, instead of thinking about asking unnecessary questions.


So it is you who decides what questions are unnecessary? Hmmm.


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Johnnybones wrote:
Caligastia wrote:
Yes I would, “be wary of that Jesus fella” because from what I heard He will come like a thief in the night and you will never know when He returns, and for what reason? And yes I get your drift, you don’t need to rehash, anything because a person who thinks in a single dimension, would not be able to reveal any flaws in thinking from a three or higher dimensional thought process. However, it's not about you or Brad or some others, it's always been and always will be about the kids today, because they have, for the most part exceeded most normal thinking.

nodAmanaV wrote:
Normally, thinking is enhanced when faith is chosen wholeheartedly. Faithful thinking is always focused on selflessly seeking and then doing the will of the Father, instead of thinking about asking unnecessary questions.

So it is you who decides what questions are unnecessary? Hmmm.

"Johnnybones" -- The "Key" to "nodAmanaV" response is "Faithful thinking is always focused on selflessly seeking" where if by your response you think that "nodAmanaV" singles self out, you are mistaken, whereby your responses, you are not "seeking", you proclaim to having found and subject your will upon others by either "asking unnecessary questions" which your current response reply, would be unnecessary, and cannot be associated with "doing the will of the Father". It would be apparent from many of your responses, that you have determined some of your thoughts as being sourced from the TA, who speaks in multiple dimensions but you seem to be receiving and perceiving in a single dimension. Therefore, your responses are not "selfless" but "self-fulfilling", as a catalyst of unknown purpose, and can only be a reflection of self-idolization and desire for belligerence.

The following Urantia Book narration would describe the "creatures of Havona" who would seem to warrant "autocratic" rule, whereby it would seem that it is our experience which they would need, as long as the spiritual will does not supersede human will which would require some material form.

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(52.3) 3:5.17 The creatures of Havona are naturally brave, but they are not courageous in the human sense. They are innately kind and considerate, but hardly altruistic in the human way. They are expectant of a pleasant future, but not hopeful in the exquisite manner of the trusting mortal of the uncertain evolutionary spheres. They have faith in the stability of the universe, but they are utter strangers to that saving faith whereby mortal man climbs from the status of an animal up to the portals of Paradise. They love the truth, but they know nothing of its soul-saving qualities. They are idealists, but they were born that way; they are wholly ignorant of the ecstasy of becoming such by exhilarating choice. They are loyal, but they have never experienced the thrill of wholehearted and intelligent devotion to duty in the face of temptation to default. They are unselfish, but they never gained such levels of experience by the magnificent conquest of a belligerent self. They enjoy pleasure, but they do not comprehend the sweetness of the pleasure escape from the pain potential.

(52.2) 3:5.16 The full appreciation of truth, beauty, and goodness is inherent in the perfection of the divine universe. The inhabitants of the Havona worlds do not require the potential of relative value levels as a choice stimulus; such perfect beings are able to identify and choose the good in the absence of all contrastive and thought-compelling moral situations. But all such perfect beings are, in moral nature and spiritual status, what they are by virtue of the fact of existence. They have experientially earned advancement only within their inherent status. Mortal man earns even his status as an ascension candidate by his own faith and hope. Everything divine which the human mind grasps and the human soul acquires is an experiential attainment; it is a reality of personal experience and is therefore a unique possession in contrast to the inherent goodness and righteousness of the inerrant personalities of Havona.

(52.1) 3:5.15 Throughout the universe, every unit is regarded as a part of the whole. Survival of the part is dependent on co-operation with the plan and purpose of the whole, the wholehearted desire and perfect willingness to do the Father’s divine will. The only evolutionary world without error (the possibility of unwise judgment) would be a world without free intelligence. In the Havona universe there are a billion perfect worlds with their perfect inhabitants, but evolving man must be fallible if he is to be free. Free and inexperienced intelligence cannot possibly at first be uniformly wise. The possibility of mistaken judgment (evil) becomes sin only when the human will consciously endorses and knowingly embraces a deliberate immoral judgment.


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Cal, you devil you. I love it! You're on our side now! How refreshing. Very encouraging.


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Caligastia wrote:
"Johnnybones" -- The "Key" to "nodAmanaV" response is "Faithful thinking is always focused on selflessly seeking" where if by your response you think that "nodAmanaV" singles self out, you are mistaken, whereby your responses, you are not "seeking", you proclaim to having found and subject your will upon others by either "asking unnecessary questions" which your current response reply, would be unnecessary, and cannot be associated with "doing the will of the Father". It would be apparent from many of your responses, that you have determined some of your thoughts as being sourced from the TA, who speaks in multiple dimensions but you seem to be receiving and perceiving in a single dimension. Therefore, your responses are not "selfless" but "self-fulfilling", as a catalyst of unknown purpose, and can only be a reflection of self-idolization and desire for belligerence.


Seems that you know me well enough to pronounce these judgements upon me.

3:5.15 Throughout the universe, every unit is regarded as a part of the whole. Survival of the part is dependent on co-operation with the plan and purpose of the whole, the wholehearted desire and perfect willingness to do the Father’s divine will. The only evolutionary world without error (the possibility of unwise judgment) would be a world without free intelligence. In the Havona universe there are a billion perfect worlds with their perfect inhabitants, but evolving man must be fallible if he is to be free. Free and inexperienced intelligence cannot possibly at first be uniformly wise. The possibility of mistaken judgment (evil) becomes sin only when the human will consciously endorses and knowingly embraces a deliberate immoral judgment.

I assume your judgement of me is not mistaken and I take your advise to heart in improving myself.

(52.3) 3:5.17 The creatures of Havona are naturally brave, but they are not courageous in the human sense. They are innately kind and considerate, but hardly altruistic in the human way. They are expectant of a pleasant future, but not hopeful in the exquisite manner of the trusting mortal of the uncertain evolutionary spheres. They have faith in the stability of the universe, but they are utter strangers to that saving faith whereby mortal man climbs from the status of an animal up to the portals of Paradise. They love the truth, but they know nothing of its soul-saving qualities. They are idealists, but they were born that way; they are wholly ignorant of the ecstasy of becoming such by exhilarating choice. They are loyal, but they have never experienced the thrill of wholehearted and intelligent devotion to duty in the face of temptation to default. They are unselfish, but they never gained such levels of experience by the magnificent conquest of a belligerent self. They enjoy pleasure, but they do not comprehend the sweetness of the pleasure escape from the pain potential.

I must assume your benevolent self is here trying to assist me in my conquest of my belligerent self. This I will take to heart as well.


I have felt the first stone strike me in the face by one who is perfectly selfless. The second stone is see coming from the direction of nodAmanaV. I have never met Havona natives, but I suspect they are much like the both of you, minus the stones.

Peace


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I will forsake ending my post with "Peace" as it seems to mean one thing to some and something quite different to others. There is no room for belligerence here or sarcasm or cleverness.....including my own. When the shoe fits.....

Best wishes.

Brad :wink:


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fanofVan wrote:
I will forsake ending my post with "Peace" as it seems to mean one thing to some and something quite different to others. There is no room for belligerence here or sarcasm or cleverness.....including my own. When the shoe fits.....

Best wishes.

Brad :wink:



Hypocrisy is an insidious thing. :(


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Indeed it is....as is one's doubt as to the Father's benevolence or power or control of all universe administration; or his mercy ministry of love. Surely we may trust God and learn how to get along together in our disagreements?


2. God’s Law and the Father’s Will

(1588.4) 141:2.1 The night before they left Pella, Jesus gave the apostles some further instruction with regard to the new kingdom. Said the Master: “You have been taught to look for the coming of the kingdom of God, and now I come announcing that this long-looked-for kingdom is near at hand, even that it is already here and in our midst. In every kingdom there must be a king seated upon his throne and decreeing the laws of the realm. And so have you developed a concept of the kingdom of heaven as a glorified rule of the Jewish people over all the peoples of the earth with Messiah sitting on David’s throne and from this place of miraculous power promulgating the laws of all the world. But, my children, you see not with the eye of faith, and you hear not with the understanding of the spirit. I declare that the kingdom of heaven is the realization and acknowledgment of God’s rule within the hearts of men. True, there is a King in this kingdom, and that King is my Father and your Father. We are indeed his loyal subjects, but far transcending that fact is the transforming truth that we are his sons. In my life this truth is to become manifest to all. Our Father also sits upon a throne, but not one made with hands. The throne of the Infinite is the eternal dwelling place of the Father in the heaven of heavens; he fills all things and proclaims his laws to universes upon universes. And the Father also rules within the hearts of his children on earth by the spirit which he has sent to live within the souls of mortal men.

(1588.5) 141:2.2 “When you are the subjects of this kingdom, you indeed are made to hear the law of the Universe Ruler; but when, because of the gospel of the kingdom which I have come to declare, you faith-discover yourselves as sons, you henceforth look not upon yourselves as law-subject creatures of an all-powerful king but as privileged sons of a loving and divine Father. Verily, verily, I say to you, when the Father’s will is your law, you are hardly in the kingdom. But when the Father’s will becomes truly your will, then are you in very truth in the kingdom because the kingdom has thereby become an established experience in you. When God’s will is your law, you are noble slave subjects; but when you believe in this new gospel of divine sonship, my Father’s will becomes your will, and you are elevated to the high position of the free children of God, liberated sons of the kingdom.”

(1590.4) 141:4.1 While sojourning at Amathus, Jesus spent much time with the apostles instructing them in the new concept of God; again and again did he impress upon them that God is a Father, not a great and supreme bookkeeper who is chiefly engaged in making damaging entries against his erring children on earth, recordings of sin and evil to be used against them when he subsequently sits in judgment upon them as the just Judge of all creation. The Jews had long conceived of God as a king over all, even as a Father of the nation, but never before had large numbers of mortal men held the idea of God as a loving Father of the individual.

(1590.5) 141:4.2 In answer to Thomas’s question, “Who is this God of the kingdom?” Jesus replied: “God is your Father, and religion — my gospel — is nothing more nor less than the believing recognition of the truth that you are his son. And I am here among you in the flesh to make clear both of these ideas in my life and teachings.”


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fanofVan wrote:
Indeed it is....as is one's doubt as to the Father's benevolence or power or control of all universe administration; or his mercy ministry of love. Surely we may trust God and learn how to get along together in our disagreements?


I have no doubt that the Father's plan is set in perfection. But because it is God's plan that we not be created perfect but perfecting, it is logical that we live in an imperfect, evolving level of universe existence. Harmony does not abound in Michael's domain. Melchizedeks are not perfect in wisdom. In our mistakes and disagreements are sown the seeds of perfecting experience.

As you say Bradly, if the shoe fits... The thing is that it is a one size fits all. Perfect agreement and silly alliances are childish and stagnates real character growth. Man must mix it up a bit. From bruises and hurt egos there emerges healing and shrinking egos. That is a good thing. O:)

There will be wars and rumors of wars. God's plan exists in eternity.


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Johnnybones wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
Indeed it is....as is one's doubt as to the Father's benevolence or power or control of all universe administration; or his mercy ministry of love. Surely we may trust God and learn how to get along together in our disagreements?


I have no doubt that the Father's plan is set in perfection. But because it is God's plan that we not be created perfect but perfecting, it is logical that we live in an imperfect, evolving level of universe existence. Harmony does not abound in Michael's domain. Melchizedeks are not perfect in wisdom. In our mistakes and disagreements are sown the seeds of perfecting experience.

As you say Bradly, if the shoe fits... The thing is that it is a one size fits all. Perfect agreement and silly alliances are childish and stagnates real character growth. Man must mix it up a bit. From bruises and hurt egos there emerges healing and shrinking egos. That is a good thing. O:)

There will be wars and rumors of wars. God's plan exists in eternity.



I once married this woman (we're still married) and after we got to know each other a little bit and it became clear we would eventually end up married she said to me "just think how we're going to fight". FIGHT? I thought to myself. Jeepers Wally. You must be kidding, right? I thought to myself. Hahaha

Heck, even Rodney King asked us "Can we all get along?"

Peace out 8)


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nodAmanaV wrote:
Cal, you devil you. I love it! You're on our side now! How refreshing. Very encouraging.

"nodAmanaV" -- Thanks for the acknowledgment, but it would be difficult to be on one side or another, because there are far to many sides here, which have not really been defined, including "Johnnybones", where when I find a record which continually skips on the same track, it would be considered as a broken record which I generally put in file 13. But when someone answers an honest question and the recipient of the answer does not comprehend the answer given, then it is sometimes necessary to restate the answer in various words until they either sink in or no longer have any meaning. Therefore, for some individuals who persist to show their intellect by continued repetition of illogical proclamations without diverse reasoning to support their proclamations are just broken.

Should you present a specific platform for which sides could be presented as non-absolute, then one might indicate that they can lean more to one side than another, nevertheless at this point I'm not sure what all the sides are? I just call them like I see them, and sometimes I don't like what I see?
Thanks again.


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Cal wrote:
"Thanks for the acknowledgment, but it would be difficult to be on one side or another, because there are far to many sides here, which have not really been defined"


Actually, I suppose there are as many sides as there are free will creatures in the universe. But when I say "side" I'm talking about which side we take in the spirit. Either we are for doing the right thing or we're not. When I think of what the papers indicate, it seems to me that imperfection allows for much that would be on the wrong side, and the papers also make the presentation that being on the wrong side absolutely requires a full effort to be so identified. So to me in a final sense, albeit it there are many sides, ultimately there are only two sides, the side that survives and the side that doesn't.

One more thing, identifying yourself with "Caligastia" is quite interesting. I think I know why one would do that in a forum like this but it's definitely not what most would even think to do, myself included. What and who we identify ourselves with is second only to what and who we desire to be in truth IMO. So I'm very curious, would you mind taking a few moments to tell us why you have taken on such a provocative username?

Thanks


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