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quil wrote:
Despite the apparent differences in cadence and tone between the two personas, I still see similarities. For instance, in the last post, right out of the gate Cal mentions "Gabriel vs Lucifer" -- was this not something you previously fixated on, Louis? I seem to recall posts where you brought it up. I even think I recall where you and Brad got into a heated discussion about it.

Also when Cal says "Believe what you will, there is a whole lot more to be presented, so bring it on." two things strike me:

1. Louis, you claimed there was a lot you were going to be presenting in other threads in the General Discussion forum. So I guess now that Cal is here, we are blessed with not one, but two great revelators of truth on this forum?

2. The closing of Cal's post to "bring it on" attitude also reminds me of certain tones you took on in those discussions-- this combative, "everyone doesn't believe me now but will eventually will see how wrong they are" mentality...

If in the review of the logs, admins find that each persona has a different IP address, this is not proof that each persona isn't the same person. Nowadays there are many ways to achieve this. Two different ISPs (easy to do in "rich" countries, home broadband for one account, and perhaps wireless 3/4G for another account). Or post one persona from work and another from home. Or just go find one of countless proxy services out there. It wouldn't surprise me if this last one was the route that was actually taken. If anyone has been banned from a forum based on IP, that would drive them to find out about such services.

Further, just because there was 'discussion' in another thread between the personas also doesn't prove anything. If you are dedicated to this agenda of presenting your supposed truths, it becomes more likely that you would engage in such tactics. Either that or really you are just a troll getting a major kick out of the whole thing.

To accuse anyone of going to these extremes is very disheartening to me. And I do fear I've entered a trap of confirmation bias. I cannot examine this situation objectively anymore. So I will withdraw now from the topic for good and let others figure all of this out. Once again, I truly, sincerely hope I am wrong.

"quil" -- I'm glade that you have chosen to stay out of this, because your accusation of an innocent person, would indicate "paranoia" regarding your persistence in checking IP addresses, etc. but, your statements indicate to me, an IT professional, and who has worn many hats, in other professional fields, that your assumptions fail to take into account, ISP providers and their patron's, who have elected to sign up for dynamic IP addressing over purchasing static IP addresses. For, it has been my experience that when an ISP fails to maintain their systems with sufficient IP servers, such as "Verizon", in highly populated user areas, the dynamic IP system will have a tendency to switch IP addresses as frequently as every 20 minutes, outside of their routers mandate to reassign every three days of so.

Then there is the factor that depending on what Internet Browser one uses, the ability to hide or mask, your IP address, is just a setting provided with the browser. But if you really want to identify anyone on the internet, then you need to have specific software which will identify your specific MAC ID assigned to every processor, which you should be aware of since there was quite a controversy presented to the public when Intel published this fact, starting with the Pentium III processor, which was quickly squashed. I have many programmer friends who are local and who have learned their trade in Russia, who can hack your system and you wouldn't know that they were actually collecting data with every key stroke. But, the real issue here is that you have prosecuted and convicted an innocent person, which does not say much for one's true character. It would seem that the little you know regarding computers is lacking the understanding of what's in the hardware inside your computer. So, as the one you accuse might say, give it up.

Do you have anything to contribute to this topic other than accusations?


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Tony wrote:
I sincerely hope this forum doesn't turn into another UBRON.

Hi, Tony, thanks for chiming in, but this forum is more user friendly than "UBRON" and I was once invited to look into the back server information retained on "UBRON" and it is quit extensive, with collected information.
However, would you care to extrapolate more on your statement regarding your presumption?


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Caligastia wrote:
Tony wrote:
I sincerely hope this forum doesn't turn into another UBRON.

Hi, Tony, thanks for chiming in, but this forum is more user friendly than "UBRON" and I was once invited to look into the back server information retained on "UBRON" and it is quit extensive, with collected information.
However, would you care to extrapolate more on your statement regarding your presumption?


I made no presumption. I merely expressed a hope and a comparison. When I last participated in UBRON many years ago, it was a cesspool of insults, accusations, politics and character attacks. Perhaps things have changed since I left that wasteland so long ago but my experience was such that I have no desire to ever go back and find out. My statement merely reflects my perception that this thread resembles the UBRON of my memory and my hope that it is an aberration and not a trend for this forum, which has been a bastion of peace and harmony in comparison.

_________________
"If a man places a gulf between himself and God, this gulf will bring fear. But if a man finds the support of the Invisible and Ineffable, he is free from fear." --from the Taittiriya Upanishad


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Tony wrote:
I made no presumption. I merely expressed a hope and a comparison. When I last participated in UBRON many years ago, it was a cesspool of insults, accusations, politics and character attacks. Perhaps things have changed since I left that wasteland so long ago but my experience was such that I have no desire to ever go back and find out. My statement merely reflects my perception that this thread resembles the UBRON of my memory and my hope that it is an aberration and not a trend for this forum, which has been a bastion of peace and harmony in comparison.

My apologies "Tony", my use of the word "presumption" was not correct, however I agree with your "expressed hope", but it might seem that the subconscious reflects to the conscious mind sometimes.
Thanks again for your input.


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Tony and the rest of the forum,

I offer my apologies to all of you and all other sincere participants on this board. I have not participated in UBRON but I know the phenomenon of which you speak. I have seen it tear apart other discussion forums and mailing lists. It is with a heavy heart that I continue to discuss this at all. I know my reputation will suffer and I may even face reprimand. Just know I don't take this lightly and I wouldn't continue to press the issue if I didn't feel there was real merit here.

Despite this pageant, I am even more resolved to charge that Louis and Cal are, if not the same person, aligned in purpose ultimately to disrupt this forum should whatever agenda that brings them here not come to fruition. I can't presume to know the true motive, but something not good is definitely afoot here.

If you review this thread closely you will see many attacks lobbed in Brad's and my directions. True, I did levy a single accusation and offer supporting evidence for the charge. But I did not engage in any personal attacks. They did. The attacks only serve one purpose, and that is to provoke some emotion in us. The latest attack toward me in particular was pretty pathetic. If "Cal" actually knew what he was talking about, I guess I could be offended, but at the moment I am more amused than anything. Nice try, but I'm not gonna bite.

All this leads me to believe that they are functioning, in Internet parlance, as trolls. Trolls will do or say anything to get a rise out of you. Using a controversial nick and holding controversial positions are classic troll moves.

Trolls thrive on disruption and make it their mission to remain the focus of the board. Trolls are known to create alter personas and simulate fake conversations to throw people off. This is not paranoia, but just the facts. The phenomenon is not new and was bound to occur here at some point.

Immature trolls are easy to spot. Their attempts at disruption are obvious and usually they are successful in baiting the less experienced Internet users.

More mature trolls tend to enjoy the long game. They get much satisfaction out of fooling otherwise smart people over a duration of time. They also like to target specific users and appeal to them on whatever level they think the user will respond best. So if say, I'm particularly religious, there might be appeals to that aspect of me to generate sympathy with that persona.

It appears to me that one of the current short-term missions right now is to see me break and back off my charges. The secondary objective is to sow seeds of confusion and doubt in the entire board.

Oh and likely followup tactics will include accusing me of multiple personas, of engaging in the same behaviors, calling me paranoid, accusing me of spreading confusion, or simply further defensive reactions such as personal attacks. Basically anything to bait me into an emotional response and to prompt even more confusion and doubt into the reader. At this point I would be surprised if more attacks didn't follow. But since I've called all of this out, it will be interesting to see what subsequent posts look like. Maybe they will attempt to take the "high road"?

There is really only one way deal with trolls: ignore them. I admit I have been acting against my better judgement. But they both are now on my ignore list and I advise everyone else to do the same. This is the last I will speak of it.

- quil


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fanofVan wrote:
While I remain confused as to whether I failed or "passed" this test, or trap, much has been revealed to be sure; and perhaps my own human weaknesses and character flaws included....once again. Sigh....oh well. Onward.
[. . .]
The UB says that the rebellion was a System rebellion, certainly not originating on Urantia nor about Urantia. But then, the only information available regarding these events with any detail are within the UB. I will not presume to tell anyone to believe what is written in what claims to be celestial authored, epochal revelation and the belief by any in this claim affords nothing to those who do not. What I find curious though is the reliance upon the text by those who do not believe the text to present theories contrary to the text. Weird.
[. . .]
That's quite a theory Cal. This then would prove, beyond doubt, that the UB is a pack of lies and propaganda by the creators and their nefarious agents of torture and condemnation. Why then waste precious time for self assertion by reading such a fiction of manipulation I wonder? Or are there hidden keys within for our redemption and salvation? And who will lead us into this "truth"?

However, while I have never doubted the mortal's ability for evil, sin, and iniquity, for a Prince and System Sovereign to fall into treachery and betrayal and rebellion has, indeed, kept me intrigued. So, if material in the UB can guide us into discussion and discovery about the Prince's fall, I am all ears! An epic tragedy for the ages. But the claim of unfairness or being misunderstood by Deity and Divinity and Gabriel and the Ancients is malarkey and is a dead horse that deserves no more beating.
[. . .]
I await further testing.

“fanofVan”, you are not being tested here nor are you a lab rat, lest you feel that way by your own reasoning but, in your response, your words used in reply to my post is interesting in that the content of your response, would indicate a misinterpretation of my presentation. Where, if you will, my presentation of a defense, of the character “Caligastia”, is based only that everyone is entitled to a defense, and whether a defendant if guilty or not, would be subject to a judge and or jury. However, in that the Urantia Book deems, this character as guilty, as would be perceived by reader interaction, and interpretation, it could also be presumed that the overall information presented in the UB, is as I have presented in quote boxes and can be read and interpreted by one self. As to your implication as to “theory”, be it mine or just retained from the context of the narration, is speculative and circumstantial, where many a defendant has been convicted on much less circumstantial evidence but, as indicated earlier, the purpose of this defense is not to ascertain guilt or innocence but, rather to show that there may be some shadow of doubt, which would warrant a change in the prosecution’s request for immediate sentence without a plea for mercy, based on the circumstances, and lack of evidence.

In your presentation of the following statement reply, based on its content, where you have personalized your case against “Caligastia” against me:
Quote:
It is a sorrowful pity Cal that you feel abandoned, that we are all abandoned by the Most Highs and the angelic hosts on this experimental sphere...now known as the Shrine of Nebadon and a Seraphic Headquarters with a universe Master Son's attention and affection. This is sad to learn. I can now the better understand your query.

Where if presented in a judicial court, I would need to object, where you would be attempting to lead the judiciary, against the defense’s case, as attempting to put words in my mouth, which were not said therefore should be overruled as hearsay.

Nevertheless, you presented in your earlier statements, presented first, above, that “Or are there hidden keys within for our redemption and salvation?” where I might respond that, there are no “hidden keys” in the presentation of the Urantia Book but, are presented in plain sight for anyone to read or if interested, to determine additional information which may be presented, although not associated to one specific notation. Where not directly tied to “Caligastia” but to his staff, where when I read the following UB narration, I wonder about how it is written and why present this information, if it was not to spawn additional questions. In that why would Caligastia’s staff be instructed to “not engage in sexual reproduction,” however by the use of the word “but”, it can be assessed that they were instructed to “study their personal constitutions”, where the word “constitution”, from a medical standpoint, is “(6) Medicine/Medical, Psychology. the aggregate of a person's physical and psychological characteristics”, which would substantiate the use of “intellectual (mind)” and “morontia (soul) liaison.” This by itself, would not constitute any type of “key” but does indicate that the staff was instructed to find something, and they would have needed to know what, and why, they were instructed to do this. Keeping in mind that the bodies, which their conscious was hosting, were merely shells or “Avatars” (as in the movie) and would be unfamiliar as to their abilities or functioning, keeping in mind that these bodies and their “constitution” had not been experienced prior to their hybrid creation results from the experimentation of the “Life Carriers”, which would, in retrospect, indicate that they, were aware, of the unusual circumstances, created on Urantia and, would have known about the mutant nature of the inhabitants. However, they would be the only ones with firsthand knowledge and experience which that might present, in the future.

Quote:
(744.9) 66:4.10 In conformity to their instructions the staff did not engage in sexual reproduction, but they did painstakingly study their personal constitutions, and they carefully explored every imaginable phase of intellectual (mind) and morontia (soul) liaison. And it was during the thirty-third year of their sojourn in Dalamatia, long before the wall was completed, that number two and number seven of the Danite group accidentally discovered a phenomenon attendant upon the liaison of their morontia selves (supposedly nonsexual and nonmaterial); and the result of this adventure proved to be the first of the primary midway creatures. This new being was wholly visible to the planetary staff and to their celestial associates but was not visible to the men and women of the various human tribes. Upon authority of the Planetary Prince the entire corporeal staff undertook the production of similar beings, and all were successful, following the instructions of the pioneer Danite pair. Thus did the Prince’s staff eventually bring into being the original corps of 50,000 primary midwayers.

The interesting thing about the narration above, is that the authors should use, as an identity, of this “Danite pair” as “number two” and “number seven”?
Why not just say – ‘a pair of Danite staff” or, ‘two of the staff’; why specifically indicate numbers? Also, the numbers used “two” and “seven”, could have been any two numbers between 1 and 100. So, it might seem that the authors might have meant that these numbers could have an additional reference, elsewhere in the UB. And, when one reference continues with the narration about the Prince’s Staff in the UB, there might be a collation with these two numbers, where the individuals heading up the various ten groups, that the Staff where divided into may be the “key” to these two individuals.

An additional note to be retrained from the UB narration above would possibly be the following statement: “This new being was wholly visible to the planetary staff and to their celestial associates but was not visible to the men and women of the various human tribes.” Where, the “being” which had been produced, was “the first of the primary midway creatures.” And, the question I would have is, why could “the men and women of the various human tribes” not see these creatures, yet the Prince’s Staff were of the same physical body as the humans of the various tribes? Was this due to the Staffs multiple brained constitutions?

Now keep in mind that what I am presenting here is an example to possible “hidden keys” presented in the Urantia Book, where they would not be “secrets” but, methods of constructing a narration which can present multiple points of information as can be interpreted by an interested reader, when they question the way text is presented, and how context can be used to create in-depth writing. However, this would all be in vain, for those who just don’t care about anything other than their own perspective.

That having been said, let’s look at how the “number two” and “number seven” could relate to another segment of the Urantia Book. Where the narration used the word “number”, which might indicate the actual number “2” and “7”, and it so happens that numbers are used in the UB text to list the grouping of the Prince’s Staff, where they were grouped by ten individuals in each group, and headed up by a specific individual.

For number two – “2”, we have the following, who’s director, was “Bon.”
Quote:
(746.2) 66:5.4 2. The board of animal domestication and utilization. This council was dedicated to the task of selecting and breeding those animals best adapted to help human beings in bearing burdens and transporting themselves, to supply food, and later on to be of service in the cultivation of the soil. This able corps was directed by Bon.

(746.3) 66:5.5 Several types of useful animals, now extinct, were tamed, together with some that have continued as domesticated animals to the present day. Man had long lived with the dog, and the blue man had already been successful in taming the elephant. The cow was so improved by careful breeding as to become a valuable source of food; butter and cheese became common articles of human diet. Men were taught to use oxen for burden bearing, but the horse was not domesticated until a later date. The members of this corps first taught men to use the wheel for the facilitation of traction.

(746.4) 66:5.6 It was in these days that carrier pigeons were first used, being taken on long journeys for the purpose of sending messages or calls for help. Bon’s group were successful in training the great fandors as passenger birds, but they became extinct more than thirty thousand years ago.

For number seven – “7”, we have the following, who’s director, was “Lut.”
Quote:
(747.7) 66:5.17 7. The guardians of health and life. This council was concerned with the introduction of sanitation and the promotion of primitive hygiene and was led by Lut.

(747.8) 66:5.18 Its members taught much that was lost during the confusion of subsequent ages, never to be rediscovered until the twentieth century. They taught mankind that cooking, boiling and roasting, was a means of avoiding sickness; also that such cooking greatly reduced infant mortality and facilitated early weaning.

(747.9) 66:5.19 Many of the early teachings of Lut’s guardians of health persisted among the tribes of earth on down to the days of Moses, even though they became much garbled and were greatly changed.

(748.1) 66:5.20 The great obstacle in the way of promoting hygiene among these ignorant peoples consisted in the fact that the real causes of many diseases were too small to be seen by the naked eye, and also because they all held fire in superstitious regard. It required thousands of years to persuade them to burn refuse. In the meantime they were urged to bury their decaying rubbish. The great sanitary advance of this epoch came from the dissemination of knowledge regarding the health-giving and disease-destroying properties of sunlight.

(748.2) 66:5.21 Before the Prince’s arrival, bathing had been an exclusively religious ceremonial. It was indeed difficult to persuade primitive men to wash their bodies as a health practice. Lut finally induced the religious teachers to include cleansing with water as a part of the purification ceremonies to be practiced in connection with the noontime devotions, once a week, in the worship of the Father of all.

(748.3) 66:5.22 These guardians of health also sought to introduce handshaking in substitution for saliva exchange or blood drinking as a seal of personal friendship and as a token of group loyalty. But when out from under the compelling pressure of the teachings of their superior leaders, these primitive peoples were not slow in reverting to their former health-destroying and disease-breeding practices of ignorance and superstition.

Now the notable information listed with these 2 groups is that “number two” is “The board of animal domestication and utilization”, and “number seven” is “The guardians of health and life”, where they only relate to the wellbeing of “animal’s” and of “health”, as related to the local humans, also that the instructions to inquire as to the “constitution” of their host being, would best be interpreted by these two groups. Therefore, it could be assumed that the reference to “number two” and “number seven” might refer to “Bon” and “Lut”, where being the group leader’s, they might have a more likely social association.
Then there is one other interesting notation, where the group leader names for each of the group definitions listed only list these two groups with the personalized form as “Bon’s” and “Lut’s”.

In looking for name associations for “Bon”, as a noun, I found that its origin is noted as “< Japanese, orig. Urabon < Chinese version of Sanskrit ullambana literally, hanging upside down (a metaphor for the suffering brought on by physical desires)”.
And for “Lut”, I found little but for “Lut’s”, which might have a relation to medicine, and the how “3D LUT lattice” might indicate how the eye might perceive objects through color filtration. And a reference to “Trilinear interpolation, which either one may have coalition with the production of the “primary midwayer”, but may have something to do with why the local humans could not see the “primary midwayers” where in some animals, they are either color blind or there is something lacking in the way their visual cortex might interpret certain light frequencies, which could have something to do with the Staff’s compound being.

It should be noted, that at the onset of rebellion, these two groups where entirely lost to the rebels.
Quote:
(757.4) 67:4.1 When the final roll was called, the corporeal members of the Prince’s staff were found to have aligned themselves as follows: Van and his entire court of co-ordination had remained loyal. Ang and three members of the food council had survived. The board of animal husbandry were all swept into rebellion as were all of the animal-conquest advisers. Fad and five members of the educational faculty were saved. Nod and all of the commission on industry and trade joined Caligastia. Hap and the entire college of revealed religion remained loyal with Van and his noble band. Lut and the whole board of health were lost. The council of art and science remained loyal in its entirety, but Tut and the commission on tribal government all went astray. Thus were forty out of the one hundred saved, later to be transferred to Jerusem, where they resumed their Paradise journey.

Which might infer a question as to why where these two groups, in their entirety, lost to rebellion? Was there specific information which they had or retained which would make them think that they might continue their work, for whatever reason, they may have had, maybe to better facilitate their studies and research into various issues that they may have found out.


Last edited by Caligastia on Fri May 22, 2015 3:47 pm +0000, edited 4 times in total.

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Something didn't feel right after I hit "submit" to my last post. So I did some more investigating.

Long story short: I withdraw my claim that the two are the same person. Or that they are even in collusion with one another. I let my suspicion of Louis's previous behavior of using different nicks unduly influence my thinking. I misinterpreted the natural defensiveness one has to a false accusation as evidence of something more sinister. While part of me feels I needed to make the accusation to gauge the reactions to get to the bottom of things, I am certain there are better ways of approaching that sort of problem. It hurts people's feelings and isn't appropriate in this forum. I've probably damaged my relationships with everyone here as a result. Such is the consequence of acting in the manner that I did.

I also reached into memories of past experiences and inappropriately applied those lessons to a different situation.

While there are similarities among the pet topics of these two persons, it is now apparent to me that this is mostly coincidence, not some super-sophisticated troll. I definitely did let my imagination run wild there. That doesn't mean we're not being trolled. But I don't think Louis has anything to do with it.

Louis, I am very sorry to jump to such conclusions. You may not feel satisfied with the explanations. I made mistakes and you were a casualty. It was not right. I hope everyone can see where I erred and can learn from it. And furthermore, I am inclined to agree with your assertion on the identity of "Caligastia" but I am so tired of this topic right now I don't want to get into it. I just want everyone to know I made a mistake and to think twice before publicly jumping to such conclusions, lest you have an experience like mine. Beware!

EDIT: Three more things: (a) I just want to point out that this whole thread started because someone who has been here before (and is not Louis) decided to call themselves "Caligastia." (b) What may seem like a paranoid streak in me is fueled in part by the fact that my job requires me to be paranoid, so it kinda rubs off on everything. :) (c) Cal, providers have netblocks that can be banned and handle dynamic addresses just fine. A DHCP server (not IP server) lease length varies from provider to provider and is up to the administrator and deployment requirements. Unless you use a SOCKS proxy or other type of proxy plugin, you cannot change IP addresses (layer 3) in the browser alone (layer 7). CPUs don't have MAC addresses. And you don't need to go to Russia to learn how to be a script-kiddie.

Now let's get back to the papers...


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quil wrote:
CPUs don't have MAC addresses. And you don't need to go to Russia to learn how to be a script-kiddie.

"quil" you are correct but they do have serial numbers but it is easier to just call it that. Also as you may know there are secrets out there which the majority of programmers are not aware of, like when the US Government intervened in a sale of commercial printers to "Iraq" prior to the war there. The condition of the sale was dependent on an addition of a useless chip, and when the printer was plugged in the US bombs where able to home in on that signal, knowing that these printers were installed in military installations, thereby knowing exactly where the military installations were, thereby avoiding civilian casualties. But that's not a secret any more.


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Cal - we are all entitled to our speculations...and even our "experiments" I suppose. I have shown some bad form myself within my responses including presumption, pomposity, and prejudice. I now perceive a unique perspective in your presentations and speculations regarding the topic and hope for better personal deportment on my part.

Your proposition that the Prince and Adam and Eve were "set up to fail" requires, in my mind, one of two assumptions prior to the hypothesis. Either God and the Supreme and all Paradise and Super Universe and Local Universe rulers knew of such a "strategy" or the "experiment" was a localized conspiracy. God knew or did not know. God approved or the "plan" for Urantia "failure" was a dysfunction of free will which did not violate the law of love and sincerity. Does God "set up" any for failure, default, or rebellion I wonder? Why so?

While I have experienced an emotional reaction to the charge of conspiracy for the failure of Urantia's planetary plan for upliftment and the inherent suffering that resulted from rebellion and default, I am interested in your presentation of God's ignorance or participation or tolerance of such a plan. I also look forward to your linkage between the Urantia debacle as the trigger event and Lucifer's Manifesto and resulting System rebellion. I was unaware that the Prince and his staff were failing in their ministry to Urantia prior to the rebellion and have always thought the rebellion itself was the primary cause for the Prince's fall and failure.

So, if the failure of the Prince was a set up, the rebellion was either some form of organic result of the planetary strategy - a related chain of events - or it too was set up and anticipated by the Local Universe rulers and even the Local Universe Creator Son. I wonder how far the cast of characters presiding over this planned experiment that delivered predictable results is in your opinion? Is this but an experimental formula gone wrong? Your use of "set up" is imprecise. It implies intention and forethought and consideration of potential or actual outcomes....as if the outcome was in some way within the purpose and plan of God as supervised and administered by the Creator Son, Mother Spirit, the Ancients, Gabriel, et al. For if it were not that, one must presume deviousness or mischief I would think.

It seems your defense of the Prince's character and choices rests and depends upon a premise that requires more clarity in your presentation. Once that is established, I look forward to how the rebels' (in general) and the Prince's (in particular) free will choices were unaffected BY character. The fact that one's trusted leader leads one into betrayal or rebellion unwittingly is an issue that is discussed in text - related primarily to the Prince's staff, the midwayers, the angels, and some mortal born ascenders on Mansonia. But the UB also clearly says the leaders of the rebellion plotted and timed or conspired prior to the Manifesto to violate their training and instruction and stewardship of those in their care and under their leadership.

The UB also indicates that those who "followed the leader" are most likely those who have since repented of their error but that the leadership willingly embraced their choices, defended these choices, and remain fully committed to their choices, still all these hundreds of thousands of years later, and the Prince purposefully chooses, still, to rebel and act against the Master Son of his universe with and by free will still. And further, the UB clearly says these choices violate the purpose, plan, and will of God and the Creator/Master Son. It would seem you have chosen a proposition that includes much contradiction to the UB itself....that is if one were to believe its claim that it is the authoritative attempt to clearly speak on all such matters for the purpose of eliminating error and reducing confusion by a concisely written presentation of both fact and truth.

Those "keys" you speak of that lie in plain sight must, in my opinion, confirm that which is clearly said and if such keys contradict what is clearly said, then are misunderstood by the beholder of such keys....or there is no such thing. The world is full of those who blame conspiracy for every malady and those who feel helpless and victimized by everything except their own, personal free will decisions, motives, intentions, priorities, and choices. But, we are told, free will is inherently free from any invasions by any party for any reason at any time, meaning one must presume that free will is still the instrument by which the Prince chooses still. Your proposition goes to such issues. Peace.

8)

(48.8) 3:3.1 “God knows all things.” The divine mind is conscious of, and conversant with, the thought of all creation. His knowledge of events is universal and perfect. The divine entities going out from him are a part of him; he who “balances the clouds” is also “perfect in knowledge.” “The eyes of the Lord are in every place.” Said your great teacher of the insignificant sparrow, “One of them shall not fall to the ground without my Father’s knowledge,” and also, “The very hairs of your head are numbered.” “He tells the number of the stars; he calls them all by their names.”

(49.2) 3:3.3 God is possessed of unlimited power to know all things; his consciousness is universal. His personal circuit encompasses all personalities, and his knowledge of even the lowly creatures is supplemented indirectly through the descending series of divine Sons and directly through the indwelling Thought Adjusters. And furthermore, the Infinite Spirit is all the time everywhere present.

(49.3) 3:3.4 We are not wholly certain as to whether or not God chooses to foreknow events of sin. But even if God should foreknow the freewill acts of his children, such foreknowledge does not in the least abrogate their freedom. One thing is certain: God is never subjected to surprise.

(51.1) 3:5.2 The Father rules through his Sons; on down through the universe organization there is an unbroken chain of rulers ending with the Planetary Princes, who direct the destinies of the evolutionary spheres of the Father’s vast domains. It is no mere poetic expression that exclaims: “The earth is the Lord’s and the fullness thereof.” “He removes kings and sets up kings.” “The Most Highs rule in the kingdoms of men.”

(51.2) 3:5.3 In the affairs of men’s hearts the Universal Father may not always have his way; but in the conduct and destiny of a planet the divine plan prevails; the eternal purpose of wisdom and love triumphs.


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(48.8) 3:3.1 “God knows all things.” The divine mind is conscious of, and conversant with, the thought of all creation. His knowledge of events is universal and perfect. The divine entities going out from him are a part of him; he who “balances the clouds” is also “perfect in knowledge.” “The eyes of the Lord are in every place.” Said your great teacher of the insignificant sparrow, “One of them shall not fall to the ground without my Father’s knowledge,” and also, “The very hairs of your head are numbered.” “He tells the number of the stars; he calls them all by their names.”

(49.2) 3:3.3 God is possessed of unlimited power to know all things; his consciousness is universal. His personal circuit encompasses all personalities, and his knowledge of even the lowly creatures is supplemented indirectly through the descending series of divine Sons and directly through the indwelling Thought Adjusters. And furthermore, the Infinite Spirit is all the time everywhere present.

(49.3) 3:3.4 We are not wholly certain as to whether or not God chooses to foreknow events of sin. But even if God should foreknow the freewill acts of his children, such foreknowledge does not in the least abrogate their freedom. One thing is certain: God is never subjected to surprise.

(51.1) 3:5.2 The Father rules through his Sons; on down through the universe organization there is an unbroken chain of rulers ending with the Planetary Princes, who direct the destinies of the evolutionary spheres of the Father’s vast domains. It is no mere poetic expression that exclaims: “The earth is the Lord’s and the fullness thereof.” “He removes kings and sets up kings.” “The Most Highs rule in the kingdoms of men.”

(51.2) 3:5.3 In the affairs of men’s hearts the Universal Father may not always have his way; but in the conduct and destiny of a planet the divine plan prevails; the eternal purpose of wisdom and love triumphs.

“fanofVan” – your presentation of the Urantia Book quotes presented again above, would present an interesting question as might be implied by your overall response. And, before responding to your reply, with specific responses, I should present the fact that, assuming, that which you have presented above is true and, there is no reason to not believe that it is not, and if one could assume that those individuals noted within the UB as the celestial hierarchy, were aware of our Fathers general plan of evolutionary change for the new evolving universes and, that this so called plan, as understood by some in this celestial hierarchy would and could be misunderstood, based on their individual assigned authority or duties. In other words, if the celestial hierarchy is anything like the various, established organizations, as experienced through history on Urantia, it can also be assumed that this celestial hierarchy would also be governed by a certain amount of “free will” which would allow independent thought and enforcement by celestial individuals who may take it upon themselves to interpret God’s plan as transceived or handed down and not verifiable by any written transcripts. Therefore, if the celestial hierarchy was in sync with God’s plan, and there were never any variations to the plan, there would never be a need for rebellion or revolution by any subjects beneath this hierarchy. But, as has been presented earlier in this topic, that the “Life Carriers” had specific intentions, as to achieve specific results from their experimentation on Urantia, by what or who’s authority were they able to make these decisions? Were they taking it upon themselves to create a more perfect being? If so, would this not indicate that what was produced in a previous or original plan not been perfect, thereby indicating that any plan was in need of change? So, if the “Life Carriers” had to experiment in order to achieve better results, would this not indicate that the plan from which they were working was not perfect and that it is possible that the only plan was to create a more perfect human being, but they were only working with the material shell, not the spiritual entity which constitutes the entire being.

As has been presented in the UB, and elsewhere, only Our Father is perfect, and to be like Him, would also, as has been mandated, “Be you perfect, even as I am perfect”, which was presented in either written form or perceived by someone who would not have been God but, derived as a messenger of God, but if examined by our human perspective and, what has been presented in the UB, would the previous statement, “as I am perfect”, show a measure of “pride” in oneself, where if truly from God, knowing that there can be but “one” source and center, and if not possible, it would only be the desire to be perfect, which moves one forward to find perfection through experiencing imperfection. So, if only one can define perfection, being perfect, can we only hope to define perfection by defining that which is not perfect, which should not be inclusive of judgment upon others because, 'there, but for the grace of God, go we all'.

If we review the first presentation of the “Lucifer Manifesto”, where we may assume that it has not been modified, to serve other purposes, we should notice the header, “The reality of the Universal Father” where the “key” word is “reality”, whereas is indicated in the Urantia Book, the “Universal Father” is “spirit” which by definition, cannot be seen or touched, per say, based on interaction as physical. Now the first sentence starts with “Lucifer charged”, whereby it can be assumed that the statements presented below are in the third person, and not the exact transcription as may have been written or presented, therefore this presentation must be considered as having been recreated with a certain amount of bias. Also, as is included in the first sentence the use of “that physical gravity and space-energy” would probably be a part of the actual manifesto, and based on this, the manifesto would have taken on a more scientific nature, or precise nature and the use of the word “myth” would not be conducive to the context used when at the end of the sentence it indicates “in the Father’s name”, where if the initial proclamation actually meant “that the Universal Father did not really exist”, the document or manifesto would not have confirmed His existence by saying “in the Father’s name.” As to the second sentence regarding the ‘gift of personality’, we can assume that based on the definition of “personality” in the UB, that it is made up of compound elements, which do not interact as a singular persona. Then in the third sentence with the use of “He even intimated that”, which implies that the author, here is presenting opinion, not fact. Not to mention the sentence which follows, “He traded on reverence as ignorance.”, is stated as implication, which may have been in response to the actual presentation accusing those maintaining “the rule of the universes” as being ignorant to the facts. Then to use the word “blasphemous”, constitutes a conclusion based on the author, and furthermore, based on the last sentence, where it states another assumption, that the “veiled attack upon the finaliters” may have been the perceived authority present on “Jerusem” and that the dominant issues of the manifesto where not with the “Paradise Sons” as previously implied.

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(603.3) 53:3.2 1. The reality of the Universal Father. Lucifer charged that the Universal Father did not really exist, that physical gravity and space-energy were inherent in the universe, and that the Father was a myth invented by the Paradise Sons to enable them to maintain the rule of the universes in the Father’s name. He denied that personality was a gift of the Universal Father. He even intimated that the finaliters were in collusion with the Paradise Sons to foist fraud upon all creation since they never brought back a very clear-cut idea of the Father’s actual personality as it is discernible on Paradise. He traded on reverence as ignorance. The charge was sweeping, terrible, and blasphemous. It was this veiled attack upon the finaliters that no doubt influenced the ascendant citizens then on Jerusem to stand firm and remain steadfast in resistance to all the rebel’s proposals.

Therefore, the only thing regarding the presentation above, which might have been part of the Manifesto, would be the header, “The reality of the Universal Father.” Which might indicate that “Lucifer” may have attempted to state that the “Universal Father” was a reality, but not necessarily resident on “Paradise”, but within the subordinate creatures in the Universes?

The other interesting parallel to this presentation of an abridged Manifesto is with the experience presented with the followers of Jesus, in the following narration:
Quote:
(1718.2) 154:2.1 Sunday, May 8, A.D. 29, at Jerusalem, the Sanhedrin passed a decree closing all the synagogues of Palestine to Jesus and his followers. This was a new and unprecedented usurpation of authority by the Jerusalem Sanhedrin. Theretofore each synagogue had existed and functioned as an independent congregation of worshipers and was under the rule and direction of its own board of governors. Only the synagogues of Jerusalem had been subject to the authority of the Sanhedrin. This summary action of the Sanhedrin was followed by the resignation of five of its members. One hundred messengers were immediately dispatched to convey and enforce this decree. Within the short space of two weeks every synagogue in Palestine had bowed to this manifesto of the Sanhedrin except the synagogue at Hebron. The rulers of the Hebron synagogue refused to acknowledge the right of the Sanhedrin to exercise such jurisdiction over their assembly. This refusal to accede to the Jerusalem decree was based on their contention of congregational autonomy rather than on sympathy with Jesus’ cause. Shortly thereafter the Hebron synagogue was destroyed by fire.

Therefore to examine the “Lucifer Manifesto” as presented in the Urantia Book, may require more scrutiny of the context being presented, to asses fact from opinion.

PS: One must take into consideration that the Urantia Book needed approval to be presented, therefore if what has been presented to the reader, would have been approved by the celestial hierarchy, and if there is truth presented in the UB it would need to be found rather than assumed as presented, whereby any authors would not be able to present anything which would not otherwise be approved. Thereby, would not make that which is presented in the UB as false but, must be taken as the context within its construction. Otherwise, we may not have received it at all.


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Caligastia wrote:
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(48.8) Therefore to examine the “Lucifer Manifesto” as presented in the Urantia Book, may require more scrutiny of the context being presented, to asses fact from opinion.

PS: One must take into consideration that the Urantia Book needed approval to be presented, therefore if what has been presented to the reader, would have been approved by the celestial hierarchy, and if there is truth presented in the UB it would need to be found rather than assumed as presented, whereby any authors would not be able to present anything which would not otherwise be approved. Thereby, would not make that which is presented in the UB as false but, must be taken as the context within its construction. Otherwise, we may not have received it at all.


It appears to me, Cal, that you here claim much that would be important related to any discussion of either the content or the meaning of the contents of the Papers. It seems that you are saying:

1. The words of the authors are more opinion than fact and their opinions of what happened and why cannot be trusted due to a personal bias and your assertion seems generalized enough to include every author and the commission or authorities which managed the process, resulting in a less truthful and less factual book than is claimed by the authors themselves.

2. While the words chosen cannot be taken to mean what they say, they do contain information that mortal mind can glean by evaluation of context and obscured content into the "real" story somehow imbedded within the words actually written - in other words, the book does not mean what it says and does not say what it means in any literal sense "as presented" but must be deeply scrutinized for understanding as an interpretive or coded book of information.

3. Since there is rebellion and default, that even those higher in command of the universes of time and space (or beyond?) are subject to intentional mischief and so "set up" Urantia and its Prince for failure.

4. And the story of the rebellion and its explanations cannot be trusted or presumed accurate due to the presumptions above.

5. Caligastia's fall was due to inherent deficiencies in Urantia planning and progress - perhaps even purposefully intended for future failure (you remain unclear on this claim).

I look forward to more clarity and better understanding of your proposition. One thing I have asked you about is the connection between Urantia and the rebellion. You seem to have the sequence in disarray and have not demonstrated any issue whatsoever related to Dalamatia and Urantia's progress and management issues over 300,000 years of rule; we are told this to be a system rebellion inaugurated by Lucifer and not initiated by Caligastia on Urantia. The manifesto (or "scientific" paper as you call it) is reported to have claimed there is no God and this manifesto was delivered on the sea of glass far, far away from Urantia.

So what has Urantia and its beginnings to do with the rebellion? And the life carriers and the delay for the Prince's arrival and the Melchizidek observers that you began this topic with? You also claimed things went wrong and Caligastia was chosen for his skill with such trouble....but then you offer nothing to demonstrate any such trouble during the 300,000 years of his presence here.

I would suggest that your claims regarding the story of rebellion and Urantia depend heavily upon your belief that the authors, intentionally or otherwise, cannot be trusted but your interpretation should be in all its various deviations from the text. You present conclusions based on suppositions that depend on your interpretation of that which you claim to be "hidden" - if in plain sight.

Your construct lacks both logic and confirmation. But of course, you cannot present text in support except when it is turned inside out and upside down by your deep understanding of what is truly said or truly meant by discarding what you wish and inserting what you will. But it is likely I simply do not understand......

8)


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If one were to rely on the Papers, we are clearly told the story of our world. The delay in the Prince's arrival was due to the evolutionary appearance of the 6 colored races which was, indeed, a rather unique event in its way. The Prince's city is described as beautiful and wonderful and he appears quite successful in his role here and seems to have suffered no great difficulties compared to any other world in its early evolutionary mortal epochs. The rebellion did not start on our world neither did it have anything to do with our world, generally or specifically.

The rebellion was formed in the mind of Lucifer we are told, far away from any evolutionary planet, including our own. The manifesto denied the existence of God and proclaimed all universe leaders above his own station as dictators without power except as given by the inhabitants of Nebadon. This claim was not initiated publicly until a conspiracy had been formed with others, including Caligastia and Daligastia as recruited by Satan to join in this declaration of liberty......a distortion of and abandonment of reality itself.

It is interesting to consider how such ones could come to such a position of detachment from reality and any belief in their ability to prevail. But I assume they did so believe this delusion so eagerly embraced and championed. Free will provides unlimited opportunity for false liberty to rise and the love of self to appear....even in such ones.

Now Cal seems to be inferring that we can trust no one and that chaos is held back merely by autocratic rule and our history is one of bias based error and the Urantia Papers are but a form of propaganda intended to obscure the truth by opinions and bias. Unless, that is, you have the ability to extract the truth from the propaganda....I guess. I await further clarification.

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(603.1) 53:2.5 It is very difficult to point out the exact cause or causes which finally culminated in the Lucifer rebellion. We are certain of only one thing, and that is: Whatever these first beginnings were, they had their origin in Lucifer’s mind. There must have been a pride of self that nourished itself to the point of self-deception, so that Lucifer for a time really persuaded himself that his contemplation of rebellion was actually for the good of the system, if not of the universe. By the time his plans had developed to the point of disillusionment, no doubt he had gone too far for his original and mischief-making pride to permit him to stop. At some point in this experience he became insincere, and evil evolved into deliberate and willful sin. That this happened is proved by the subsequent conduct of this brilliant executive. He was long offered opportunity for repentance, but only some of his subordinates ever accepted the proffered mercy. The Faithful of Days of Edentia, on the request of the Constellation Fathers, in person presented the plan of Michael for the saving of these flagrant rebels, but always was the mercy of the Creator Son rejected and rejected with increasing contempt and disdain.


3. The Lucifer Manifesto

(603.2) 53:3.1 Whatever the early origins of trouble in the hearts of Lucifer and Satan, the final outbreak took form as the Lucifer Declaration of Liberty. The cause of the rebels was stated under three heads:


(603.3) 53:3.2 1. The reality of the Universal Father. Lucifer charged that the Universal Father did not really exist, that physical gravity and space-energy were inherent in the universe, and that the Father was a myth invented by the Paradise Sons to enable them to maintain the rule of the universes in the Father’s name. He denied that personality was a gift of the Universal Father. He even intimated that the finaliters were in collusion with the Paradise Sons to foist fraud upon all creation since they never brought back a very clear-cut idea of the Father’s actual personality as it is discernible on Paradise. He traded on reverence as ignorance. The charge was sweeping, terrible, and blasphemous. It was this veiled attack upon the finaliters that no doubt influenced the ascendant citizens then on Jerusem to stand firm and remain steadfast in resistance to all the rebel’s proposals.

(603.4) 53:3.3 2. The universe government of the Creator Son — Michael. Lucifer contended that the local systems should be autonomous. He protested against the right of Michael, the Creator Son, to assume sovereignty of Nebadon in the name of a hypothetical Paradise Father and require all personalities to acknowledge allegiance to this unseen Father. He asserted that the whole plan of worship was a clever scheme to aggrandize the Paradise Sons. He was willing to acknowledge Michael as his Creator-father but not as his God and rightful ruler.

(603.5) 53:3.4 Most bitterly did he attack the right of the Ancients of Days — “foreign potentates” — to interfere in the affairs of the local systems and universes. These rulers he denounced as tyrants and usurpers. He exhorted his followers to believe that none of these rulers could do aught to interfere with the operation of complete home rule if men and angels only had the courage to assert themselves and boldly claim their rights.

(603.6) 53:3.5 He contended that the executioners of the Ancients of Days could be debarred from functioning in the local systems if the native beings would only assert their independence. He maintained that immortality was inherent in the system personalities, that resurrection was natural and automatic, and that all beings would live eternally except for the arbitrary and unjust acts of the executioners of the Ancients of Days.

(604.1) 53:3.6 3. The attack upon the universal plan of ascendant mortal training. Lucifer maintained that far too much time and energy were expended upon the scheme of so thoroughly training ascending mortals in the principles of universe administration, principles which he alleged were unethical and unsound. He protested against the agelong program for preparing the mortals of space for some unknown destiny and pointed to the presence of the finaliter corps on Jerusem as proof that these mortals had spent ages of preparation for some destiny of pure fiction. With derision he pointed out that the finaliters had encountered a destiny no more glorious than to be returned to humble spheres similar to those of their origin. He intimated that they had been debauched by overmuch discipline and prolonged training, and that they were in reality traitors to their mortal fellows since they were now co-operating with the scheme of enslaving all creation to the fictions of a mythical eternal destiny for ascending mortals. He advocated that ascenders should enjoy the liberty of individual self-determination. He challenged and condemned the entire plan of mortal ascension as sponsored by the Paradise Sons of God and supported by the Infinite Spirit.

(604.2) 53:3.7 And it was with such a Declaration of Liberty that Lucifer launched his orgy of darkness and death.

Me here: it is interesting to note some of the similarities in the manifesto and Cal's presentation related to the Urantia Papers in form and content both. Beware the love of mind for itself. And the indictment of an epochal revelation and its authority and purpose.

8)


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I want to acknowledge that many, indeed most, who come here may not now or ever come to believe the claims of the UB about itself and that it disclaims itself as necessary for belief for any ascender to achieve spirit status and progress. All have the same spirit within and the ministry of the universe of universes for such an eternal adventure as personal potential destiny. No belief will propel or prevent such opportunity to discern, embrace, and express truth, beauty, and goodness. Love is the divine currency and there is love enough for all.

So I wish to make clear that my presentations of text within the UB are only for clarification of what the text contains and says for itself. I hope, like me, that those who study these Papers will find nourishment with the endless bread and water of truths to be discovered therein. One certainly need not believe the claims of the authors about the whole book to feast upon its contents, as I did for over a decade and many readings prior to my eventual confidence in those authoritative claims.

I think it important for all students to discover the contents themselves by personal reading and study and learn for themselves the truths available thereby. No one should accept the words of another student regarding the contents or their meaning easily or lightly or, perhaps, at all. The book is clearly written and it says what it says and it don't say what it don't. All we as students can do is share in the discovery of what it says....and offer speculations and opinions regarding what it doesn't say or what some text might mean, especially in relation to other text.

But there are those who distort, twist, and revise the text for their own purpose or due to a lack of experience/knowledge in the reading of the UB. One must be cautious when offered revisionisms and completionism and code/key interpretative "readings" of deep and hidden meanings...this is a priestly aspiration, not that of student.

On that note, the author Cal questions as to their authority and knowledge and accuses of "bias" regarding the rebellion is known and listed:

(612.1) 53:9.9 [Presented by Manovandet Melchizedek, onetime attached to the receivership of Urantia.]

Further study would find that the Melchizedeks are the agents of the Creator Son in each local universe and the eldest brothers of all beings created within the local universe and are trustworthy and noble stewards on behalf of Michael. Let those who will besmirch them and indict them as biased and unworthy of a mortal's trust or to offer their presentation of history which they witnessed. One need not believe what the UB says, but to believe one's self, as mortal and the lowliest of all creatures in the universes, to be superior in knowledge, wisdom, and judgment than a Melchizedek is simply too outrageous to ignore as an expression of self love and superiority. Some wolves wear sheep's clothing...and others do not bother. They simply claim to correct this book of its errors and to offer up its real meaning as though the authors are incapable of speaking clearly for themselves.

Good Grief!!

2. The Melchizedek Sons

(385.4) 35:2.1 The Melchizedeks are the first order of divine Sons to approach sufficiently near the lower creature life to be able to function directly in the ministry of mortal uplift, to serve the evolutionary races without the necessity of incarnation. These Sons are naturally at the mid-point of the great personality descent, by origin being just about midway between the highest Divinity and the lowest creature life of will endowment. They thus become the natural intermediaries between the higher and divine levels of living existence and the lower, even the material, forms of life on the evolutionary worlds. The seraphic orders, the angels, delight to work with the Melchizedeks; in fact, all forms of intelligent life find in these Sons understanding friends, sympathetic teachers, and wise counselors.

(385.5) 35:2.2 The Melchizedeks are a self-governing order. With this unique group we encounter the first attempt at self-determination on the part of local universe beings and observe the highest type of true self-government. These Sons organize their own machinery for their group and home-planet administration, as well as that for the six associated spheres and their tributary worlds. And it should be recorded that they have never abused their prerogatives; not once throughout all the superuniverse of Orvonton have these Melchizedek Sons ever betrayed their trust. They are the hope of every universe group which aspires to self-government; they are the pattern and the teachers of self-government to all the spheres of Nebadon. All orders of intelligent beings, superiors from above and subordinates from below, are wholehearted in their praise of the government of the Melchizedeks.

(386.1) 35:2.3 The Melchizedek order of sonship occupies the position, and assumes the responsibility, of the eldest son in a large family. Most of their work is regular and somewhat routine, but much of it is voluntary and altogether self-imposed. A majority of the special assemblies which, from time to time, convene on Salvington are called on motion of the Melchizedeks. On their own initiative these Sons patrol their native universe. They maintain an autonomous organization devoted to universe intelligence, making periodical reports to the Creator Son independent of all information coming up to universe headquarters through the regular agencies concerned with the routine administration of the realm. They are by nature unprejudiced observers; they have the full confidence of all classes of intelligent beings.

(386.2) 35:2.4 The Melchizedeks function as mobile and advisory review courts of the realms; these universe Sons go in small groups to the worlds to serve as advisory commissions, to take depositions, to receive suggestions, and to act as counselors, thus helping to compose the major difficulties and settle the serious differences which arise from time to time in the affairs of the evolutionary domains.

(386.3) 35:2.5 These eldest Sons of a universe are the chief aids of the Bright and Morning Star in carrying out the mandates of the Creator Son. When a Melchizedek goes to a remote world in the name of Gabriel, he may, for the purposes of that particular mission, be deputized in the name of the sender and in that event will appear on the planet of assignment with the full authority of the Bright and Morning Star. Especially is this true on those spheres where a higher Son has not yet appeared in the likeness of the creatures of the realm.


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fanofVan wrote:
[. . .] it is interesting to note some of the similarities in the manifesto and Cal's presentation related to the Urantia Papers in form and content both. Beware the love of mind for itself. And the indictment of an epochal revelation and its authority and purpose.

"fanofVan" -- It would seem that you feel that you, are governed by the "authority and purpose" as you present, being the Urantia Book as "epochal revelation", therefore based on your statement: "Beware the love of mind for itself." would or could be taken any way that one will. As to the previous words which could also be an incitement which might make you an instigator but, and instigator to what, I know not your purpose, because if, as you have preached the message presented in the UB as noted through Jesus' acknowledge abridged narration, which has been noted in the UB, you seem also not loyal to these teachings as you have afore presented them. Whereby, since the "epochal revelation" presented as the Urantia Book, and as stated above which you deem as the authority by which you present the purpose of your presentation, might suggest that the human will bestowed upon each must pay homage to the revelation which presents it as relinquishing that bestowed gift back to the bestower.
Therefore, are you saying that because you consider the "epochal revelation" as an authority, and by accepting this authority, as your own, and would constitute one who believes in this as the authority, makes them subject to direct a person with free will, to follow your authority as proclaimed by an unseen or understood bestower? Or, if one has given up their free will and presented it to the authorities to do with as willed, relinquishes any responsibility of their own free will?


Last edited by Caligastia on Sun May 24, 2015 3:21 pm +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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