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As I said, time is tricky......the UB gives ample comparative examples of relative time units/metrics for Urantia days and years compared to other universe locations, so there is an obvious "metric" with uniformity of measurement - standard time. But still, the "experience" of time is somehow independent of any measure of time. I know I am being confusing which only demonstrates my confusion!!

Hoping for other perspectives.

:shock: :roll: :wink: 8)


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quil wrote:
Sorry to get off topic but I figure I might as well be honest about this in case you care whether I get what you're saying.

"quil" - I'm not sure that your comments are off topic, whereas if you do not understand a posters writing, it should warrant a question to the poster either as to a specific point or confusing entry, but it should also be noted that many posts are in response to other poster's posts, and sometimes specific replies are meant to address specific issues, posted. Where in many of my posts, I may use similes or simulated references which may not simplify but to associate in different viewpoints which might apply but, not necessarily for all, because as mentioned, some responses are specific to either something or someone.

quil wrote:
Cal, I try to read what you write but I get lost very easily. You might blame that on my inferior intellect, and that may well be true. Nevertheless the mark of a good communicator is to be able to boil things down for us mere mortals to comprehend. I try to read your posts, I really do, but I only get about 1/4 of the way in and find myself tuning out. Don't really know what you said or are trying to say. I get snippets here and there but it's mostly a jumble to me.

For the most part, I attempt to write posts, somewhat specific to the narrative style as found in the UB however, I have found that many do not take note of the quotation marks used, within my posts, because I will use a posters actual word usage or phraseology, within my response, or when using words, or phrases, found in previous Urantia Book narratives, I attempt to work those 'words' or 'phrases' back into my writing whereby to associate with the context of the text.

Nevertheless, what I have found here, in this and some other topics, responders refrain from asking questions or clarification, of what I have presented, and would rather just assume that what I may have said, is what they think that I meant to say something which they have either not read carefully, and presumed to be what they are thinking that I am saying, which if not read correctly, might or might not be correct. This is evident in how they respond, and sometimes with what they respond with, as posted quotes, which indicates to me who they may have understood the context of my narrative.

Then there are, what I call, "stop words", where when a reader reads these words, they read on but stop paying attention to how those "stop words" were used and then everything takes on a life of its own in the mind of the reader, and nothing else makes sense.

On most occasions I will attempt to read my own narrative and will often reread and edit after posting, even if it is a minor error, and overlooked initially or if changed through auto-correct but, sometimes I find that some of grammar may be questionable, and will change it but for the most part, what I originally wrote will work for what I intended, even if it is a complex construction. That is just what I have retained from the specific writing style in the UB, which is definitely not of simple context.

quil wrote:
I'm not sure what else to say other than perhaps if you want better reception of your ideas try simplifying things? I find trimming my own writing tough, often that hardest part, actually. And lately I feel like I'm really bad at spoken conversation when I don't engage that filter. It can take a lot of effort, but the rewards are usually worth it (in my experience).

"quil" - You don't need to say anything more because, I'm not looking for "reception of" my "ideas" because for the most part they are only opinion(s), and sometimes I will translate the UB text as I see its context, as I understand it, which is not to say that it should be taken as fact. However, it amazes me that many here think that a different opinion is a threat to the way they interpret the UB, and thereby is assumed as a hostile attempt against the overall Urantia Book. And, when this occurs, their responses will take on errors, whereby, I will simply wait for an opportunity to present a correction with UB text.

For the most part, people will write like they would speck to someone, but this really cannot present what someone would then write after or as someone speaks, responds to facial expression from the person to whom they are speaking, therefore it is not always possible to write as one would speck because there is not personal contact visible.

And if one thinks that the UB is of simple construction and context, there would be no way to simplify that understanding any more then they can understand. So, if there is a specific area or presentation which may be problematic for understanding, then why do so many not ask questions for a better presentation to specific points made? Why assume, and then respond with stuff that confirms their misunderstanding as if it is a threat to their intellect?


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Cal,

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my post. I think my difficulty in comprehension may even be related to other factors such as font face, color scheme of textual presentation, the heavy use of quotation marks, frequent use of commas, etc. It all ends up being a lot of stuff to parse and my short attention span eventually balks at the thought of going further. These obviously are my issues, not yours. I am sorry to pin that on you. I can recall many times in my life when other people have told me what I told you and I recall that the reality of the situation was they truly didn't put enough effort into trying to understand what I was saying in the first place. Had I attempted to simplify things any further, it would have distorted the meaning too much for me to tolerate, and so inevitable communication breakdown would have ensued...

The only other reservation I have that keeps surfacing as bias and prejudice when reading your posts is your choice to use Caligastia as your handle on this forum. At first glance it screams immaturity (like a rebel teenager). Though I still disagree with some of your conclusions, you seem pretty grounded, so I am sure you have your reasons for choosing that nick. Surely you knew this would bother some people, though? I can't find a good reason a person would name themselves that other than attention-seeking. At the very least it is distasteful. I can provide other examples of names that would fall in the same category, but I trust you get my point.

At any rate I really am off-topic now, so, I apologize to you, everyone on this thread, the forum, and the admins for veering the discussion in this direction. Do not feel obliged to respond given where I've taken the conversation. I wish I could comment on things where the thread now stands but honestly I would do better to simply read and learn as you all tackle these complex issues and reveal such interesting insights.

- quil


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Here is more text related to the co-creative partnership between Deity, the creators, and those beings created and the evolving and emerging Supreme:

(1279.1) 117:1.3 The grand universe contains the possibility of, and ever seeks for, complete unification, and this grows out of the fact that this cosmic existence is a consequence of the creative acts and the power mandates of the Paradise Trinity, which is unqualified unity. This very trinitarian unity is expressed in the finite cosmos in the Supreme, whose reality becomes increasingly apparent as the universes attain to the maximum level of Trinity identification.

(1279.2) 117:1.4 The will of the Creator and the will of the creature are qualitatively different, but they are also experientially akin, for creature and Creator can collaborate in the achievement of universe perfection. Man can work in liaison with God and thereby cocreate an eternal finaliter. God can work even as humanity in the incarnations of his Sons, who thereby achieve the supremacy of creature experience.

(1279.3) 117:1.5 In the Supreme Being, Creator and creature are united in one Deity whose will is expressive of one divine personality. And this will of the Supreme is something more than the will of either creature or Creator, even as the sovereign will of the Master Son of Nebadon is now something more than a combination of the will of divinity and humanity. The union of Paradise perfection and time-space experience yields a new meaning value on deity levels of reality.

(1279.4) 117:1.6 The evolving divine nature of the Supreme is becoming a faithful portrayal of the matchless experience of all creatures and of all Creators in the grand universe. In the Supreme, creatorship and creaturehood are at one; they are forever united by that experience which was born of the vicissitudes attendant upon the solution of the manifold problems which beset all finite creation as it pursues the eternal path in quest of perfection and liberation from the fetters of incompleteness.

To me, this is a radical and unique, if logical and reasonable, presentation or expression of the circuitry and interdependence and experiential potential in the Divine plan, purpose, and management of the universe of universes. And one which most clearly demonstrates the "why" of our existence - or the value, meaning, and destiny potential that even mere mortals may join and serve; and also, how even those born in time and space can participate in eternity and creation to come. It also gives meaning to the command that we are to be perfect...."are to be" being a critical phrase which, for now, means to me we are to "become" reality aligned and God "identified".....the transfer of the seat of our identity holds the key to this becoming "command" to love one another and love God, as it is love itself that is the functional, power circuit of truth, meaning, and value for our personal and self identification.....and actualizes the Supreme at the same "time". Or so I think.

8)


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From Yaakov's page 1, second post: "Now, why would a universe appear? Well, I don't think it would come about just because. I think G-d made one out of love. Remember, G-d creates us out of love. G-d owes us nothing. He could snuff us out tomorrow, and be perfectly authorised to do that. He is G-d, and anything he does is just. I think he begot the Son to love him. And the Spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son to be loved by them.

Now, all this sounds more like a Christian than a Jew talking. So where does Christ fit in? I don't know exactly. As a Jew, I am not supposed to recognise Jesus. And yet, there is an element where Judaism can, if you will, take on messianism, if you will. So, IS Jesus G-d? I don't have answers to those questions as yet. I am a Jew. And yet, I do know that when I die, the curtains down't go down. Rather, the second Act starts on the Mansion Worlds. We begin our whole new curriculum in the University of time and space."

Me here: My friend, very well presented concepts. I agree that the material, evolutionary, progressive, experiential universes are EXPRESSIONS of LOVE. Neither Jesus nor Michael nor Michael/Jesus is God but is a Son of God, as are we, and Michael's order of sonship is a creator within a local time/space universe. One of the very human and limiting perspectives that haunts all religions and religionists is this "small", local, earth-centric view point. It is still with us today despite the telescope and even the penetration Hubble has provided to see into time and the vastness of creation. It is all so stupendously BIG, this creation. And creation was not a single event with Earth as its culmination and defining achievement - creation is a process that takes great organization and management and one of its principal purposes is the "ascending ground" for trillions of mortal borns who must traverse these universes in an on-going educational EXPERIENCE.....your "second Act" above.

I appreciate the clarity of your thinking and your perspective you bring to the discovery of meaning and value of the Urantia Book. Often, a paradox or even contradiction, is only such by the point of view or perspective or prejudicial limits the mortal mind imposes. Critical thinkers who can transcend the "known" to discover and discern that not yet known are very important to the progress potential of our world. We help build bridges of understanding and mend fences of misunderstanding - or we do when we are able to be non-threatening.

(1261.5) 115:3.1 The absolute cosmos is conceptually without limit; to define the extent and nature of this primal reality is to place qualifications upon infinity and to attenuate the pure concept of eternity. The idea of the infinite-eternal, the eternal-infinite, is unqualified in extent and absolute in fact. There is no language in the past, present, or future of Urantia adequate to express the reality of infinity or the infinity of reality. Man, a finite creature in an infinite cosmos, must content himself with distorted reflections and attenuated conceptions of that limitless, boundless, never-beginning, never-ending existence the comprehension of which is really beyond his ability.

(1261.6) 115:3.2 Mind can never hope to grasp the concept of an Absolute without attempting first to break the unity of such a reality. Mind is unifying of all divergencies, but in the very absence of such divergencies, mind finds no basis upon which to attempt to formulate understanding concepts.

(1261.7) 115:3.3 The primordial stasis of infinity requires segmentation prior to human attempts at comprehension. There is a unity in infinity which has been expressed in these papers as the I AM — the premier postulate of the creature mind. But never can a creature understand how it is that this unity becomes duality, triunity, and diversity while yet remaining an unqualified unity. Man encounters a similar problem when he pauses to contemplate the undivided Deity of Trinity alongside the plural personalization of God.

(1262.1) 115:3.4 It is only man’s distance from infinity that causes this concept to be expressed as one word. While infinity is on the one hand UNITY, on the other it is DIVERSITY without end or limit. Infinity, as it is observed by finite intelligences, is the maximum paradox of creature philosophy and finite metaphysics. Though man’s spiritual nature reaches up in the worship experience to the Father who is infinite, man’s intellectual comprehension capacity is exhausted by the maximum conception of the Supreme Being. Beyond the Supreme, concepts are increasingly names; less and less are they true designations of reality; more and more do they become the creature’s projection of finite understanding toward the superfinite.

(1266.2) 115:7.1 In the Deity of the Supreme the Father-I AM has achieved relatively complete liberation from the limitations inherent in infinity of status, eternity of being, and absoluteness of nature. But God the Supreme has been freed from all existential limitations only by having become subject to experiential qualifications of universal function. In attaining capacity for experience, the finite God also becomes subject to the necessity therefor; in achieving liberation from eternity, the Almighty encounters the barriers of time; and the Supreme could only know growth and development as a consequence of partiality of existence and incompleteness of nature, nonabsoluteness of being.

(1266.3) 115:7.2 All this must be according to the Father’s plan, which has predicated finite progress upon effort, creature achievement upon perseverance, and personality development upon faith. By thus ordaining the experience-evolution of the Supreme, the Father has made it possible for finite creatures to exist in the universes and, by experiential progression, sometime to attain the divinity of Supremacy.

Brad 8)


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fanofVan wrote:
From Yaakov's page 1, second post: "Now, why would a universe appear? Well, I don't think it would come about just because. I think G-d made one out of love. Remember, G-d creates us out of love. G-d owes us nothing. He could snuff us out tomorrow, and be perfectly authorised to do that. He is G-d, and anything he does is just. I think he begot the Son to love him. And the Spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son to be loved by them.

Now, all this sounds more like a Christian than a Jew talking. So where does Christ fit in? I don't know exactly. As a Jew, I am not supposed to recognise Jesus. And yet, there is an element where Judaism can, if you will, take on messianism, if you will. So, IS Jesus G-d? I don't have answers to those questions as yet. I am a Jew. And yet, I do know that when I die, the curtains down't go down. Rather, the second Act starts on the Mansion Worlds. We begin our whole new curriculum in the University of time and space."

Me here: My friend, very well presented concepts. I agree that the material, evolutionary, progressive, experiential universes are EXPRESSIONS of LOVE. Neither Jesus nor Michael nor Michael/Jesus is God but is a Son of God, as are we, and Michael's order of sonship is a creator within a local time/space universe. One of the very human and limiting perspectives that haunts all religions and religionists is this "small", local, earth-centric view point. It is still with us today despite the telescope and even the penetration Hubble has provided to see into time and the vastness of creation. It is all so stupendously BIG, this creation. And creation was not a single event with Earth as its culmination and defining achievement - creation is a process that takes great organization and management and one of its principal purposes is the "ascending ground" for trillions of mortal borns who must traverse these universes in an on-going educational EXPERIENCE.....your "second Act" above.

I appreciate the clarity of your thinking and your perspective you bring to the discovery of meaning and value of the Urantia Book. Often, a paradox or even contradiction, is only such by the point of view or perspective or prejudicial limits the mortal mind imposes. Critical thinkers who can transcend the "known" to discover and discern that not yet known are very important to the progress potential of our world. We help build bridges of understanding and mend fences of misunderstanding - or we do when we are able to be non-threatening.
Brad 8)


Greetings to BRAD and the rest of you:

First I must apologise for having to duck out of the conversation for as long as I did. Quite a few things popped up, including my wife being seriously injured at work, which will take her several months, and surgery, to recover from. Several other matters have also occupied my attention as well, most particularly, the end of my online class through Urantia University Institute. Another is beginning 30 May, but I do have some time off at present. There is also the never-ending cycle of research in which I am engaged for my book, and of of course, never-ending housework that I am obligated to do, since my wife is unable to do it at all. Previously, I had done much of it, but she still did some of it. Now I do all of it courtesy of her very serious injury. That all having been said, matters in Judaism have also been busy as well. As an active member of my Shul, I have been very involved there as of late also.

Well, onward and upward. Although I spoke in a quasi-Christian manner in what I said, I did so only for purposes of analysis. that is precisely the difficulty. As a Jew, I cannot acknowledge that the man Jesus of Nazareth had anything to do with the Creation. It strains credulity (at least to a Jew) to accept the idea that a human would have anything to do with Creation. And why should Jesus's sonship be any more unique than mine or yours?

The ultimate problem with making a man creator of any part of the universe (using that term in its modern sense of the whole Creation) is that you run the risk of making him into a mini-Deity which we are most certainly not. And in the Christian Scriptures, commonly called the "New Testament", Jesus never claimed to be G-d. Nor did he ever claim, at least that I can recall, to be uniquely the Son of G-d in a way the rest of us weren't. He did claim to the Son of Man, which title is quasi-Messianic in the Hebrew Scriptures (ie, the so-called "Old Testament"), but the meaning of that term is somewhat slippery at best. It was the Gospel writers and Paul that put the term Son of G-d on him, and also the title of G-d himself.

As far as religions being Earth-bound, I suppose it depends on what you define as Earth-bound. I have always wondered what Christianity would do when faced with the reality of non-human intelligent beings, if any. If there is life out there on other worlds, I often wonder whether Christianity would define those lives as needing to be saved by Jesus Christ's Sacrificing Atonement (the which I know the UB does not teach). That is a conundrum, at best. And would Islam obligate all intelligent life to accept the Prophethood lf Mohammed? Also a bit of a conundrum.

As far as Judaism goes, there is no question. Judaism knows that for Jews, G-d expects certain things. We are obligated to accept the Hebrew Scriptures, and how they have been interpreted. Essentially, that means that the Torah of Moses, the Prophets, and the Writings, and Sages and Rabbis of Blessed Memory are obligatory for Jews, and only for Jews. They are NOT obligatory for non-Jews. Non-Jews are obliged only to follow the Laws of Noah, which are summed up in the following, to wit:

Do not deny God.
Do not blaspheme God.
Do not murder.
Do not engage in incest, adultery, pederasty or bestiality.
Do not steal.
Do not eat of a live animal.
Establish courts/legal system to ensure law and obedience.

So, essentially, that comes down to the following, to wit:

If G-d does not require non-Jews to behave like Jews, then he certainly wouldn't require non-Humans to behave like Jews! Assuming that non-Humans were made similarly to us, having two sexes (male and female), producing live young, etc, I would assume that the above laws, or something similar, would have been provided to them at some point in their history. So I would argue that Judaism and the Jews are less Earth-bound than other religions in that sense. In the sense that we believe that the G-d of Israel is the G-d of all the Universe (again, using that term in its modern sense), I would again argue that we are not Earth-bound simply because G-d is one, no matter where in the Universe you go. Now, whether he is one in the Triune sense that the Urantia Book claims he is is of course another matter altogether, and that is what I am studying the book to find out. But there you are.

At present, I must close this post, as my wife will be arriving soon, and I shall matters that will be occupying my attention. I shall look forward to all of your posts on this.

Peace,
Ya'akov


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Greetings Yaakov!! Hope all is well with you and your family.

I agree with your premise that God expects much of believers, all believers. Or is it that God hopes for much and rewards all sincere efforts to find and know Him? Our free will to choose our motives, priorities, and actions is provided that we might, eventually, truly embrace our spiritual nature and respond to love, true love that is sourced in the Creator and is returned to the Creator in the circuit of love...a personalized reality response.

My claim that religions tend to be earth "centered" was only in relation to how small humans have made gods in their own image based on their limited view of reality and the cosmos. I love the way the UB expands the universes of creation and enlarges the family of creation to include so much and so many, all of which makes me feel part of something so grand!! And all have the same Source and Center and the free will to find and know God and become part of this grandness as family. There is only one reality but there are trillions upon trillions of experiences within that reality....some experiences are more real though than others based on the choices made by each. God is great and God is good......more great and more good than we are taught by many religions.

We are taught early in the text that any and all separation from God is self selected and self imposed. We must live our religious experience or there is no religious experience. It is not enough to believe this or that or proclaim that and this. Religion is lived. It is a personal expression of truth, beauty, and goodness realized by the living and yearning and such a life brings forth the fruit of the spirit. Those who embrace this living truth are nourished and experience new meanings in their daily walk and new value in the choices and relationships upon that walk.

Sincerity is key. As is the heart - the motive and the intent of our choosing. I think what we do is more important than what we don't do...but only because if we do right, there is much to do wrong that will not be chosen. What sincere and enlightening child of God would murder or steal or lust or dishonor parents or, or, or.....the list of things not to do is long and the things to do are short - love God and love one another....and make choices and take actions based on love. When love comes to rule a heart or a people or a nation or a world, the vices, the crimes, and the abuses of one upon another will simply evaporate from life.

I think our free will is given that we might come to this realization willingly and learn of the benefits of love centeredness as opposed to the carnage wreaked by elevating our selves above others....consequences to our own mind and life that only love, truth, beauty, and goodness can overcome and heal all such self inflicted wounds. I believe we are "punished" by our choices and the consequences which naturally attend bad choices and we are "rewarded" by the results and fruits that attend right choosing and right living. One must choose and one must live by their choices and learn to make better choices for better reasons...it requires action and not mere belief.

A wise man said: "You cannot buy salvation; you cannot earn righteousness. Salvation is the gift of God, and righteousness is the natural fruit of the spirit-born life of sonship in the kingdom. You are not to be saved because you live a righteous life; rather is it that you live a righteous life because you have already been saved, have recognized sonship as the gift of God and service in the kingdom as the supreme delight of life on earth."

Brad 8)


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fanofVan wrote:
Greetings Yaakov!! Hope all is well with you and your family.


All is as well as can be, thank you. I hope also the same for you.

Quote:
I agree with your premise that God expects much of believers, all believers. Or is it that God hopes for much and rewards all sincere efforts to find and know Him? Our free will to choose our motives, priorities, and actions is provided that we might, eventually, truly embrace our spiritual nature and respond to love, true love that is sourced in the Creator and is returned to the Creator in the circuit of love...a personalized reality response.


I would accept that as axiomatic, yes. It seems to me that that is just one of those basic truths, the denial of which makes one a fool.

Quote:
My claim that religions tend to be earth "centered" was only in relation to how small humans have made gods in their own image based on their limited view of reality and the cosmos. I love the way the UB expands the universes of creation and enlarges the family of creation to include so much and so many, all of which makes me feel part of something so grand!! And all have the same Source and Center and the free will to find and know God and become part of this grandness as family. There is only one reality but there are trillions upon trillions of experiences within that reality....some experiences are more real though than others based on the choices made by each. God is great and God is good......more great and more good than we are taught by many religions.


I shan't dispute that rhe UB does introduce a lot of material that expands one's understanding of Deity if one is motivated in said fashion. But I shall say that in many ways the UB takes a Jew beyond his paygrade. By asking him to go past Judaism, it has basically told him to do the impossible. At the same time, a Jew can certainly study other beliefs wih profit, & to the extent that they do not violate Torah, is free to adopt beliefs that he may find congenial.

Quote:
We are taught early in the text that any and all separation from God is self selected and self imposed. We must live our religious experience or there is no religious experience. It is not enough to believe this or that or proclaim that and this. Religion is lived. It is a personal expression of truth, beauty, and goodness realized by the living and yearning and such a life brings forth the fruit of the spirit. Those who embrace this living truth are nourished and experience new meanings in their daily walk and new value in the choices and relationships upon that walk.


I would again accept that as an axiom. It is such an obvious truth that it need not be said.

Quote:
Sincerity is key. As is the heart - the motive and the intent of our choosing. I think what we do is more important than what we don't do...but only because if we do right, there is much to do wrong that will not be chosen. What sincere and enlightening child of God would murder or steal or lust or dishonor parents or, or, or.....the list of things not to do is long and the things to do are short - love God and love one another....and make choices and take actions based on love. When love comes to rule a heart or a people or a nation or a world, the vices, the crimes, and the abuses of one upon another will simply evaporate from life.


Sounds pretty valid to me.

Quote:
I think our free will is given that we might come to this realization willingly and learn of the benefits of love centeredness as opposed to the carnage wreaked by elevating our selves above others....consequences to our own mind and life that only love, truth, beauty, and goodness can overcome and heal all such self inflicted wounds. I believe we are "punished" by our choices and the consequences which naturally attend bad choices and we are "rewarded" by the results and fruits that attend right choosing and right living. One must choose and one must live by their choices and learn to make better choices for better reasons...it requires action and not mere belief.


Also true.

Quote:
A wise man said: "You cannot buy salvation; you cannot earn righteousness. Salvation is the gift of God, and righteousness is the natural fruit of the spirit-born life of sonship in the kingdom. You are not to be saved because you live a righteous life; rather is it that you live a righteous life because you have already been saved, have recognized sonship as the gift of God and service in the kingdom as the supreme delight of life on earth."


This is of course certainly true. Jews believe that every human person is a child of G-d, whom we have always identified as Father. It is the recognition of our nature of being children of he Most High G-d that makes us saved as such All men will enter into Gan Eden. But as per Zechariah 8:23, non-Jews shall take hold of the Fringe of he Jew and we will lead them to Jerusalem, and teach tbem to pray.

So ultimately, BRAD, there is much in the UB that I can use, but much I can only ponder. So there you are, for what its worth.


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