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loucol wrote:
Hi IMS,

I Must Speak wrote:
Did you miss reading the fascinating information shared by a UB author in the UPapers that ALL of us who have lived on Urantia since the defaults will get a chance to speak as "witnesses" at the trial?


I presume that ALL involved "witnesses" will be a witness for the prosecution at the trial of Gabriel vs Lucifer. Thus far we have been privy only to the indictment of the rebels, which I remind you, are still our brothers. Have you had any contact with the rebels? Have you had a chance to inquire as to their defense directly? I certainly have not. What I know is the details of the indictment against the defendants as presented in TUB. If called as a witness will you provide testimony under oath as to evidence you have that directly implicates the rebels in disloyalty against Deity? Will you swear an oath on TUB and claim this is the source of your testimony to place it into evidence?

My dear sir, that is hearsay. Hearsay cannot be placed into evidence and you are dismissed as a witness. No further questions, your Honors, Ancients of Days. Wait, except this one last question. Do you know what it means to bear false witness against ones brothers?

163:2.4 Then Andrew brought to Jesus a certain rich young man who was a devout believer, and who desired to receive ordination. This young man, Matadormus, was a member of the Jerusalem Sanhedrin, he had heard Jesus teach and had been subsequently instructed in the gospel of the kingdom by Peter and the other apostles. Jesus talked with Matadormus concerning the requirements of ordination and requested that he defer decision until after he had thought more fully about the matter. Early the next morning, as Jesus was going for a walk, this young man accosted him and said: “Master, I would know from you the assurances of eternal life. Seeing that I have observed all the commandments from my youth, I would like to know what more I must do to gain eternal life?” In answer to this question Jesus said: “If you keep all the commandments—do not commit adultery, do not kill, do not steal, do not bear false witness, do not defraud, honor your parents—you do well, but salvation is the reward of faith, not merely of works. Do you believe this gospel of the kingdom.” And Matadormus answered: “Yes, Master, I do believe everything you and your apostles have taught me.” And Jesus said, “Then are you indeed my disciple and a child of the kingdom.”


I Must Speak wrote:
I don't have the time or the inclination to point yours out for you, loucal.


Then you have failed me as a brother. I have all the time you need from me, just ask it of me, brother. O:)

Regards, Louis


Part of the fun of chatting with fellow UB readers on forums is getting reminded of something that is in the UB that another reader might have forgotten that they have read.

You are assuming that the trial is going to be based on the same rules as USA "Judge Judy" justice.

We are NOT "witnesses", as you see it, that can "bear false witness" in this trial.

We are EVIDENCE.


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Hi Jim,
Thank you for not giving up on me. I can be a pain in the ass with my pesky questions but it is because I care about you and all of my brothers.

I was 6 years old in Sunday School when I first remember asking one of those pesky questions. I asked, "why did Jesus have to die on the cross for my sins to be forgiven?". My Bible teacher looked me straight in the eyes and said, "Because Jesus loves you". I became fearful that I was responsible for the death of Jesus. He would not have died that way if I had not sinned. Then I thought, will my mother die because she loves me? I was surly a sinner because I was repeatedly told that we all were. What an awful psychological burden placed on Christians. If we love someone we must sacrifice ourselves and because we are loved, those that love us will be sacrificed as a consequence. By the time TUB came into my life I had dealt effectively with my guilt issues but not without much turmoil intervening. I grew to know that God is Love and that love and sacrifice are not linked in this way.

At the age of seven I was at a kid's party where a clown was doing magic tricks. I asked to see what was up his sleeve and in his pockets and after that I was promptly sat in the corner. I have never since trusted clowns or tricksters. In high school I went on a Washington DC trip to meet our representatives in government. The Senator came to greet us in a classroom in the Capitol. I asked him what the little light on the clock was all about. He said said that it meant that the Senate was in session. Then I asked why he was not on the Senate floor. He looked irritated by replied that most work is done in committee. I was less than satisfied. The year before I had received an award for three years of perfect attendance in middle school. I expected more from my Senator. When I was a Chief Resident in training, an Egyptian doctor who transferred from London was assigned to me by the Professor. I asked him, "why me?". He was told that I was best to introduce him to American Medicine because he was told that, "Louis does things 'by the book'.

By the time I was forty and TUB found me I had already been through some intense life experiences. I had for some time been in the habit of practicing the 'presence of God'. TUB was a book that struct me as true. I instantly knew that it was what it claimed to be. The presence of God was now called the Thought Adjuster. Being a life long critical thinker, I was a born skeptic that drifted all too often into cynicism. I am a recovering cynic. But I had absolutely no problems with the book from my first reading. I was not surprised at its self consistency because I knew it to be true. I knew it to be a revelation, but not from Father. He had already revealed Himself to me in Jesus, The Spirit of Truth and in His presence in me. I saw TUB as a revelation from my loving and generous celestial brothers and sister. That is why I treat TUB as such. Brothers are of service when they remind us of Father. And Father is no respecter of persons. We are all loved equally.

That is why I took the opportunity to use Pilate and the Lucifer rebellion to illustrate my approach to TUB. Father is unbiased. Michael and Father are One and so he is also unbiased. I cannot say the same of Local Universe personalities. We all have biases. I never believed that my celestial brothers that provided and authored the revelation were anything other than sincere, truthful, trustworthy and competent to present their papers. I also believe that those who are subject to bias know this of themselves and have done their best to suppress this tendency.

With regards to Pilate I admit to being extremely biased against him. But if I were to be assigned as his defense council in the courts on high, I would be forced to plead his case. I would start by presenting mitigating circumstances that lead to his offenses. I would call him a company man, just doing his job, a very difficult job of keeping the peace in Judea. Pilate struggled with his conscience and was personally convinced of Jesus' innocents. He knew of Claudia's position of sympathy and this was a source of great pain for him. Pilate, as a judge and final arbiter, tried to employ a makeshift jury in the form of a mob. He, therefore, washed his hands of the matter. He was rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar's. He had not yet come to know Father. I fully understand any bias John and the Midwayers present might have had in this awful and brutal treatment of the Master.

Yet the Master asked for their forgiveness. He was not biased. Father displayed no bias for he is no respecter of persons. For Father there is just those persons who abide by His will and those that do not. And those that do not will eventually lose their reality in the insanity of iniquity, suicide.

I further illustrate this matter of bias with the Lucifer rebellion. In Gabriel vs Lucifer we must realize that we have just heard the prosecution's case. Notice that Michael refused to take sides. Father has not taken sides either. Neither are biased with their children. When you have warring children wise parents give the kids every chance for them to resolve their differences without interference. You step in only if some harm may come to any of them. Jesus ended the rebellion because he saw that some harm would soon come of the conflict. He separated the quarreling brothers by interring the rebellious minority for their own protection till the matter could be settled in court. And so it goes. There is individual bias as well as group bias.
In TUB I have only detected this subtle bias in Local Universe authors of origin in Nebadon. And really very little of it to be sure. But that is OK. Bias is expected and natural for creatures of free will. As we progress we will be less and less subject to our biases.

In conclusion, I believe TUB is truly an astounding revelation by our celestial brothers. The Greater revelation, however, had already been gifted to us in the bestowal of Michael, our Father/Brother and Father Himself in the gift of our TA. I do not think of TUB as a revelation of God. Jesus revealed God and was One with Father. I said that I cannot live the reality of the book because the book had no reality before 1934. I cannot live the reality of the book because my only reality is Father in me. I cannot have any reality apart from Him. I love Father, I cannot love a book. I cannot have a relationship with a book. Father communicates His reality to me directly and without symbology. Like I have said, words on paper are symbols of symbols and twice removed reality. Father tells me these things because I am in the habit of asking. And, my efforts at listening for the answers has improved with the practice of His presence. It is not even a still small voice because His thoughts are imparted even without the symbology of words of language. His thoughts become my thoughts as to the measure that I allow it. I work hard at giving up my thoughts for His.

Regards, Louis


Last edited by loucol on Fri Jan 09, 2015 5:28 am +0000, edited 2 times in total.

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Hi IMS,
Glad to see you found the time for me. Thank you because that means you care as I care for you.

I Must Speak wrote:
Part of the fun of chatting with fellow UB readers on forums is getting reminded of something that is in the UB that another reader might have forgotten that they have read.

You are assuming that the trial is going to be based on the same rules as USA "Judge Judy" justice.

We are NOT "witnesses", as you see it, that can "bear false witness" in this trial.

We are EVIDENCE.


Can you provide the quote about us all being witnesses at the trial of Gabriel vs Lucifer? I have looked and can't find it.

You are correct that I assume that the trial is somewhat like here on Urantia because we are told as much. Only difference is that matters are judged perfectly. But, "as above so below" and "as below so above". In Heaven as it is on Earth.

I don't see why you are now confusing witness with evidence. Where did you come up with this one? Either we will be witnesses or not. We certainly are not evidence. Evidence is something that constitutes proof. I am not a something. I am a someone, a person, by virtue of my Creator. We are His Will, not evidence of His will.

Regards, Louis


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loucol wrote:
Hi IMS,
Glad to see you found the time for me. Thank you because that means you care as I care for you.

I Must Speak wrote:
Part of the fun of chatting with fellow UB readers on forums is getting reminded of something that is in the UB that another reader might have forgotten that they have read.

You are assuming that the trial is going to be based on the same rules as USA "Judge Judy" justice.

We are NOT "witnesses", as you see it, that can "bear false witness" in this trial.

We are EVIDENCE.


Can you provide the quote about us all being witnesses at the trial of Gabriel vs Lucifer? I have looked and can't find it.

You are correct that I assume that the trial is somewhat like here on Urantia because we are told as much. Only difference is that matters are judged perfectly. But, "as above so below" and "as below so above". In Heaven as it is on Earth.

I don't see why you are now confusing witness with evidence. Where did you come up with this one? Either we will be witnesses or not. We certainly are not evidence. Evidence is something that constitutes proof. I am not a something. I am a someone, a person, by virtue of my Creator. We are His Will, not evidence of His will.

Regards, Louis


That is the tricky thing about the UB - the FACT that everyone (celestials included) present on Urantia at the time of Caligastia's hissy fit, so to speak, were given the time and space to make up their mind is not repeated in the other Papers.

That "process" - the individual's decision - is NEVER disconnected from the "whole". Tyranny ends, as a schtick for avoiding the fruits of an individual's personal sin, here on earth.

Maybe this fact/process of perfect justice, ala Ancients of Days in adjudicating rebellion, should have been repeated in the Paper that addresses the topic.....? A cheat sheet for pilpul?

We are most certainly "evidence" in a trial addressing the iniquity of a Lanonodek (sp?) Son! Think of everything Caligastia tinkered with simply because he could - the work of the Life Carriers (their experiment on Urantia), the sincerity of the Material Son and Daughter in following God's Will, his whispering in the ear of what HE (Caligastia) knew to be a degenerate gene pool surrounding Jesus during the monkey trial....it is a MASSIVE list of merciless egomaniacal "cosmic insanity" carried out because of his boredom for over 200K years!

Is not the dead body (a 5 year old riddled with bullets) "evidence" of a murder? If the wrong person is convicted of murder at the trial, in your logic so far, the dead body can be accused of "false witness"?

We are not "things", but in regards to the iniquity of the rebels, our short lives as SPIRITUAL INFANTS are EVIDENCE in the process of adjudicating the rebellion.

Any free will creature that finds NO SINCERE JOY in being of loving service will self-extinquish themselves. That's what "time" will provide as BEAUTIFUL and GOOD TRUTH.


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Hi IMS,

I would still appreciate it if you could provide the quote about all of us being witnesses at THE TRIAL. It would help the discussion along.

I Must Speak wrote:
That is the tricky thing about the UB - the FACT that everyone (celestials included) present on Urantia at the time of Caligastia's hissy fit, so to speak, were given the time and space to make up their mind is not repeated in the other Papers.


It seems that many still have not made up their minds for the trial has not begun based on the information we have at hand.

I Must Speak wrote:
We are most certainly "evidence" in a trial addressing the iniquity of a Lanonodek (sp?) Son! Think of everything Caligastia tinkered with simply because he could - the work of the Life Carriers (their experiment on Urantia), the sincerity of the Material Son and Daughter in following God's Will, his whispering in the ear of what HE (Caligastia) knew to be a degenerate gene pool surrounding Jesus during the monkey trial....it is a MASSIVE list of merciless egomaniacal "cosmic insanity" carried out because of his boredom for over 200K years!


The iniquity of a Lanonodek Son has not been established at the writing of TUB. The trial is pending. You are simply reading from the indictment documents of Gabriel vs Lucifer et al. Evidence can only mean anything at a trial when subject to cross examination. We must do our best to remain neutral until such time that the Ancients of Day have rendered a verdict. Otherwise we are guilty of prejudging our brothers.

Again, please explain how we are evidence in such a trial.

I Must Speak wrote:
That "process" - the individual's decision - is NEVER disconnected from the "whole". Tyranny ends, as a schtick for avoiding the fruits of an individual's personal sin, here on earth.


We may be a part of a whole but we are NEVER judged as a whole. We are judged as individuals.

I Must Speak wrote:
Is not the dead body (a 5 year old riddled with bullets) "evidence" of a murder? If the wrong person is convicted of murder at the trial, in your logic so far, the dead body can be accused of "false witness"?


Ridiculous!

No, a dead body riddled with bullets is not necessarily evidence of a murder. What if a 5 year old wandered into a firing range? He was killed but it is not a murder. There is a big difference. That is why we must await a trial. Tyranny is conviction without a trial. Is that what you want?

I Must Speak wrote:
We are not "things", but in regards to the iniquity of the rebels, our short lives as SPIRITUAL INFANTS are EVIDENCE in the
process of adjudicating the rebellion.


Again, you have condemned these persons without a trial by pronouncing them iniquitous. That is prejudicial. By your standards you are a tyrant.

We can only bear witness to ourselves. What evidence do you have that you are you? What is your identity? Any papers you may have can be forgeries, so don't go there. Your finger prints and DNA are also unacceptable because that only tells me about your body, not who you are. Who can bear witness as to who you claim to be? There is only one Person who can. FATHER!

Regards, Louis


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Just thinking out loud but it is my understanding that there will be no trial nor witnesses nor testimony nor pleas as we think of them here for those who remain interred. The universe mercy and justice system is based on the extension of both mercy and forgiveness to any and to all who are reality-aligned enough to accept mercy. The parties are "guilty". Guilt is not the issue. The issue is the willingness or the unwillingness to respond to love and mercy. For those who have already repented their guilt and accepted mercy proffered, I very much doubt their continued internment with those who have refused to do so. Free will runs its full course and only when someone is found incapable of responding to love and mercy is the non-existence "sentence" completed.

Some text from all of you would be appreciated. I understand that the presentation of Gabriel vs. Lucifer sounds like a trial but I think the tribunal is simply awaiting that time when the offer of mercy has run its patient course. The Uversa court is not determining guilt by evidentiary presentation and rebuttal I do not think - the facts are well known and truly and fully recorded. Note the "annihilation verdict" below....

Recall that it took many thousands of years for the time lag to effectively equalize the good results with the bad outcomes and has since reached over a thousand fold of good to bad due to this time lag....if I were in charge (based on this data), I would not be in any hurry either - let love overwhelm the evil and allow this shadow to educate and illustrate the falsehoods proclaimed and the unreality of that falsehood until the good is a million to one (or more).

(610.6) 53:9.1 Early in the days of the Lucifer rebellion, salvation was offered all rebels by Michael. To all who would show proof of sincere repentance, he offered, upon his attainment of complete universe sovereignty, forgiveness and reinstatement in some form of universe service. None of the leaders accepted this merciful proffer. But thousands of the angels and the lower orders of celestial beings, including hundreds of the Material Sons and Daughters, accepted the mercy proclaimed by the Panoptians and were given rehabilitation at the time of Jesus’ resurrection nineteen hundred years ago. These beings have since been transferred to the Father’s world of Jerusem, where they must be held, technically, until the Uversa courts hand down a decision in the matter of Gabriel vs. Lucifer. But no one doubts that, when the annihilation verdict is issued, these repentant and salvaged personalities will be exempted from the decree of extinction. These probationary souls now labor with the Panoptians in the work of caring for the Father’s world.

(611.4) 53:9.5 Since Michael’s final bestowal no one in all Satania has desired to go to the prison worlds to minister to the interned rebels. And no more beings have been won to the deceiver’s cause. For nineteen hundred years the status has been unchanged.

(611.5) 53:9.6 We do not look for a removal of the present Satania restrictions until the Ancients of Days make final disposition of the archrebels. The system circuits will not be reinstated so long as Lucifer lives. Meantime, he is wholly inactive.

(611.6) 53:9.7 The rebellion has ended on Jerusem. It ends on the fallen worlds as fast as divine Sons arrive. We believe that all rebels who will ever accept mercy have done so. We await the flashing broadcast that will deprive these traitors of personality existence. We anticipate the verdict of Uversa will be announced by the executionary broadcast which will effect the annihilation of these interned rebels. Then will you look for their places, but they shall not be found. “And they who know you among the worlds will be astonished at you; you have been a terror, but never shall you be any more.” And thus shall all of these unworthy traitors “become as though they had not been.” All await the Uversa decree.

(611.7) 53:9.8 But for ages the seven prison worlds of spiritual darkness in Satania have constituted a solemn warning to all Nebadon, eloquently and effectively proclaiming the great truth “that the way of the transgressor is hard”; “that within every sin is concealed the seed of its own destruction”; that “the wages of sin is death.”

Me here: This last statement to me means that all who do not survive self-destruct and it is an inherency of the potential within free will to become the cause of this effect. It is NOT judgment....it is self annihilation....but it takes time and it is given the time required.

8)


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Hi Bradly,

fanofVan wrote:
Just thinking out loud but it is my understanding that there will be no trial nor witnesses nor testimony nor pleas as we think of them here for those who remain interred. The universe mercy and justice system is based on the extension of both mercy and forgiveness to any and to all who are reality-aligned enough to accept mercy. The parties are "guilty". Guilt is not the issue. The issue is the willingness or the unwillingness to respond to love and mercy. For those who have already repented their guilt and accepted mercy proffered, I very much doubt their continued internment with those who have refused to do so. Free will runs its full course and only when someone is found incapable of responding to love and mercy is the non-existence "sentence" completed.


I don't know why you think that there will be no trial in the matter of Gabriel vs Lucifer et al. What does adjudication mean to you? To me it means a trial by judges. Uversa has its complement of defense attorneys. I think this means that there will be witnesses and evidence on both sides. Is not a brother innocent until proven guilty. You seem to allow for Michael to be judge, jury and executioner even though he himself refuses to judge his children. How can mercy and forgiveness be offered before a guilty verdict has been rendered by The Ancients of Days? How would you or Manovandet Melchizedek or anyone else but Father know that a person is incapable of responding to love and mercy?

fanofVan wrote:
Some text from all of you would be appreciated. I understand that the presentation of Gabriel vs. Lucifer sounds like a trial but I think the tribunal is simply awaiting that time when the offer of mercy has run its patient course. The Uversa court is not determining guilt by evidentiary presentation and rebuttal I do not think - the facts are well known and truly and fully recorded. Note the "annihilation verdict" below....


I will use the text you have provided to state my position on this matter. Gabriel vs Lucifer is a trial that is pending the last we are told. You cannot offer mercy before a verdict unless the prosecution proffers a plea deal, which requires an admission of at least some guilt to some charges by the defendants. You even state that there is a Uversa court but what do courts do? They entertain trials to determine guilt or innocence. I disagree that the facts are well known. What are the facts? So far in TUB we are presented with a summary of the Lucifer manifesto. That is hearsay. We have not heard from the defense. Are the rebels not entitled to a defense? Is Michael a tyrant? I don't think so. For the record, I wish to have it fully recorded that the Lucifer Manifesto as presented is hearsay.

fanofVan wrote:
Recall that it took many thousands of years for the time lag to effectively equalize the good results with the bad outcomes and has since reached over a thousand fold of good to bad due to this time lag....if I were in charge (based on this data), I would not be in any hurry either - let love overwhelm the evil and allow this shadow to educate and illustrate the falsehoods proclaimed and the unreality of that falsehood until the good is a million to one (or more).


None of us nor Manovandet know why there is such a lag time. It is only speculation. Well, I can speculate as well. Michael did not take sides and neither did Father. If the reason for the lag time is to allow love to overwhelm evil then why have a trial at all. Just wait in eternity. Warring brothers need adjudication from impartial judgement before they turn to harming one another.

fanofVan wrote:
(610.6) 53:9.1 Early in the days of the Lucifer rebellion, salvation was offered all rebels by Michael. To all who would show proof of sincere repentance, he offered, upon his attainment of complete universe sovereignty, forgiveness and reinstatement in some form of universe service. None of the leaders accepted this merciful proffer. But thousands of the angels and the lower orders of celestial beings, including hundreds of the Material Sons and Daughters, accepted the mercy proclaimed by the Panoptians and were given rehabilitation at the time of Jesus’ resurrection nineteen hundred years ago. These beings have since been transferred to the Father’s world of Jerusem, where they must be held, technically, until the Uversa courts hand down a decision in the matter of Gabriel vs. Lucifer. But no one doubts that, when the annihilation verdict is issued, these repentant and salvaged personalities will be exempted from the decree of extinction. These probationary souls now labor with the Panoptians in the work of caring for the Father’s world.


Here we are told by Manovandet that salvation was offered all rebels by Michael. I would ask, salvation from what, annihilation? But Michael refused to take sides. Michael refused to be in judgement of the rebels. Why was Michael brought into this at all? He told his administration it was hands off in the early days of the rebellion.

fanofVan wrote:
(611.4) 53:9.5 Since Michael’s final bestowal no one in all Satania has desired to go to the prison worlds to minister to the interned rebels. And no more beings have been won to the deceiver’s cause. For nineteen hundred years the status has been unchanged.


Does this seem merciful and loving to you?

fanofVan wrote:
(611.6) 53:9.7 The rebellion has ended on Jerusem. It ends on the fallen worlds as fast as divine Sons arrive. We believe that all rebels who will ever accept mercy have done so. We await the flashing broadcast that will deprive these traitors of personality existence. We anticipate the verdict of Uversa will be announced by the executionary broadcast which will effect the annihilation of these interned rebels. Then will you look for their places, but they shall not be found. “And they who know you among the worlds will be astonished at you; you have been a terror, but never shall you be any more.” And thus shall all of these unworthy traitors “become as though they had not been.” All await the Uversa decree.


I ask, traitors to whom or what? Traitors to Michael and Father, or to Gabriel's Administration?

fanofVan wrote:
(611.7) 53:9.8 But for ages the seven prison worlds of spiritual darkness in Satania have constituted a solemn warning to all Nebadon, eloquently and effectively proclaiming the great truth “that the way of the transgressor is hard”; “that within every sin is concealed the seed of its own destruction”; that “the wages of sin is death.”


Is the warning restated as , "you had better not align yourself against the Administration of Gabriel"? The real question that needs to be adjudicated is whether the rebels engaged in willful disloyalty to Michael or Father. It is not clear and the facts are not in. Let us await the trial.

fanofVan wrote:
Me here: This last statement to me means that all who do not survive self-destruct and it is an inherency of the potential within free will to become the cause of this effect. It is NOT judgment....it is self annihilation....but it takes time and it is given the time required.


I disagree with you on this Bradly. There can be no such thing as self annihilation. Father created his sons. Only Father can take away what He has given. This is most certainly judgement. A psychotic individual is divorced from reality. That individual cannot pronounce themselves psychotic. Annihilation is automatic when identity is divorced from personality. The soul cannot survive the divorce. Reality cannot be maintained because there is no longer an individual of identity and personality.

Regards, Louis


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loucol wrote:
Hi IMS,

I would still appreciate it if you could provide the quote about all of us being witnesses at THE TRIAL. It would help the discussion along.

There is no such ONE quote, sorry.

I Must Speak wrote:
That is the tricky thing about the UB - the FACT that everyone (celestials included) present on Urantia at the time of Caligastia's hissy fit, so to speak, were given the time and space to make up their mind is not repeated in the other Papers.


It seems that many still have not made up their minds for the trial has not begun based on the information we have at hand.

Can you please read the Papers that are crystal clear about the situation? Put your insinuations and speculations to work on your own refusal to read the Papers and come to this discussion with facts you forgot, or never read.

I Must Speak wrote:
We are most certainly "evidence" in a trial addressing the iniquity of a Lanonodek (sp?) Son! Think of everything Caligastia tinkered with simply because he could - the work of the Life Carriers (their experiment on Urantia), the sincerity of the Material Son and Daughter in following God's Will, his whispering in the ear of what HE (Caligastia) knew to be a degenerate gene pool surrounding Jesus during the monkey trial....it is a MASSIVE list of merciless egomaniacal "cosmic insanity" carried out because of his boredom for over 200K years!


The iniquity of a Lanonodek Son has not been established at the writing of TUB. The trial is pending. You are simply reading from the indictment documents of Gabriel vs Lucifer et al. Evidence can only mean anything at a trial when subject to cross examination. We must do our best to remain neutral until such time that the Ancients of Day have rendered a verdict. Otherwise we are guilty of prejudging our brothers.

Again, what are you talking about? The UB states that the DEFAULT of the Material Son and Daughter was a bigger disaster for Urantians than Lucifer's madness.

Again, please explain how we are evidence in such a trial.

We are offered for consideration in many Papers of the UB all the problems - material and spiritual - that persist because of the default of the mission of the Material Son and Daughter. This genetic mash that has grown to 7 billion humans is not God's will and that is why we are the material evidence of genetic engineering by a cosmically insane caretaker.

I Must Speak wrote:
That "process" - the individual's decision - is NEVER disconnected from the "whole". Tyranny ends, as a schtick for avoiding the fruits of an individual's personal sin, here on earth.


We may be a part of a whole but we are NEVER judged as a whole. We are judged as individuals.

Did I say we are judged as a whole? No I did not. The "whole" we are creating is the Supreme Being. THAT is yet another way that we are "evidence".

I Must Speak wrote:
Is not the dead body (a 5 year old riddled with bullets) "evidence" of a murder? If the wrong person is convicted of murder at the trial, in your logic so far, the dead body can be accused of "false witness"?


Ridiculous!

You asked me to note when your logic was fallacious. You were heading to accusing the dead of "false witness" and you are still digging that ditch with your next statement about the kid stepping in front of a firing range - and how would that happen if not because all the adults have neglected to watch over the child? God never stops watching over the child who is searching for Him.

No, a dead body riddled with bullets is not necessarily evidence of a murder. What if a 5 year old wandered into a firing range? He was killed but it is not a murder. There is a big difference. That is why we must await a trial. Tyranny is conviction without a trial. Is that what you want?

"Tyranny is conviction without a trial" - surely you jest.

I Must Speak wrote:
We are not "things", but in regards to the iniquity of the rebels, our short lives as SPIRITUAL INFANTS are EVIDENCE in the
process of adjudicating the rebellion.


Again, you have condemned these persons without a trial by pronouncing them iniquitous. That is prejudicial. By your standards you are a tyrant.

I believe that they are not representing God's will. If that makes me a tyrant, then so be it.

We can only bear witness to ourselves. What evidence do you have that you are you? What is your identity? Any papers you may have can be forgeries, so don't go there. Your finger prints and DNA are also unacceptable because that only tells me about your body, not who you are. Who can bear witness as to who you claim to be? There is only one Person who can. FATHER!

That's just sad - what you apply your keen mind to in order to hold on to your pet evils. PERSONALITY is changeless. I know who I am. But I'm all for de-funding the meta data collection on me by people who end up with all that data for the goal of telling me that there is no one who can be a witness to who I am.

Regards, Louis


Sincerely,

...well, what would be the point in signing my "name" since you won't accept that I can know who I am along with the Father, all local guardian angels that "know" me, and Mom :-)


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Paper 54 - page 615 - "....Although conscious and wholehearted identification with evil (sin) is the equivalent of nonexistence (annihilation) there must always intervene between the time of such personal identification with sin and the execution of the penalty - the automatic result of such a willful embrace of evil - a period of time of sufficient length to allow for such an adjudication of such an individual's universe status as will prove entirely satisfactory to all related universe personalities, and which will be so fair and just as to win the approval of the sinner himself.....But if the universe rebel against the reality of truth and goodness refuses to approve the verdict, and if the guilty one knows in his heart the justice of his condemnation but refuses to make such confession, then must the execution of sentence be delayed in accordance with the discretion of the Ancients of Days. And the Ancients of Days refuse to annihilate any being until all moral values and all spiritual realities are extinct, both in the evildoer and in all related supporters and possible sympathizers.....".

End Times is the end of evil, and that is not a prophecy, but a FACT of justice.

So many topics on this forum end the same way....wandering in front of a firing squad....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrant


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Hi IMS,

I Must Speak wrote:
Hi IMS,

Louis Said
I would still appreciate it if you could provide the quote about all of us being witnesses at THE TRIAL. It would help the discussion along.

There is no such ONE quote, sorry.


That is what I suspected. Apology accepted.

I Must Speak wrote:
Can you please read the Papers that are crystal clear about the situation? Put your insinuations and speculations to work on your own refusal to read the Papers and come to this discussion with facts you forgot, or never read.


Can you be be more specific about "the situation". You are the one that keeps stating FACTS. Back up your statements of FACTS with quotes so as to give me a chance to cross examine. You seem to want to refuse me that prerogative by obfuscations. The papers are crystal clear but you are not.

I Must Speak wrote:

Louis Said
The iniquity of a Lanonodek Son has not been established at the writing of TUB. The trial is pending. You are simply reading
from the indictment documents of Gabriel vs Lucifer et al. Evidence can only mean anything at a trial when subject to cross examination. We must do our best to remain neutral until such time that the Ancients of Day have rendered a verdict. Otherwise we are guilty of prejudging our brothers.


Again, what are you talking about? The UB states that the DEFAULT of the Material Son and Daughter was a bigger disaster for Urantians than Lucifer's madness.



You have now given yourself the credentials of a psychiatrist. Are you a psychiatrist? How else could you diagnose Lucifer as being mad. Well, I am a physician and I can tell you that I cannot even begin to make a diagnosis without taking a thorough medical history and doing a complete physical examination and obtaining necessary supporting laboratory test and diagnostic procedures. I need the proper evidence to support my differential diagnoses. This is a short list of what I think the patient is suffering from. And, I may be wrong in the end and have to reassess the patient.

Can't you understand that charges are allegations until proven in the Court of the Ancient of Days?

I Must Speak wrote:
We are offered for consideration in many Papers of the UB all the problems - material and spiritual - that persist because of the default of the mission of the Material Son and Daughter. This genetic mash that has grown to 7 billion humans is not God's will and that is why we are the material evidence of genetic engineering by a cosmically insane caretaker.


How do presume to know God's will on this matter? Is it God's will to allow a cosmically insane caretaker to have done what you have accused him of? If so, do you want God's will to be undone?

I Must Speak wrote:
Did I say we are judged as a whole? No I did not. The "whole" we are creating is the Supreme Being. THAT is yet another way that we are "evidence".


I never said that you did. What do you mean when you say that "we are creating" the Supreme Being? Are you saying that we can create Deity? Are you saying that we are creating evidence???

I Must Speak wrote:
You asked me to note when your logic was fallacious. You were heading to accusing the dead of "false witness" and you are still digging that ditch with your next statement about the kid stepping in front of a firing range - and how would that happen if not because all the adults have neglected to watch over the child? God never stops watching over the child who is searching for Him.


Again, you obfuscate. I simply used your example to illustrate how evidence can be misleading and must be subject to the scrutiny of cross examination. Yes, God never stops watching a child who is searching for Him. But a child is not a body or a body with bullets in it. Why do continue to try to confuse the issue?

I Must Speak wrote:
"Tyranny is conviction without a trial" - surely you jest.


Webster's Dictionary, "Tyranny: arbitrary or unrestrained exercise of power; oppressive or unjust government." Who is clowning around here?

I Must Speak wrote:
I believe that they are not representing God's will. If that makes me a tyrant, then so be it.


Your beliefs are irrelevant when it concerns God's will. Either you know His will or you do not know. And if you presume to know when you don't, then indeed you are a would be tyrant if any power was given you.

I Must Speak wrote:

Louis Said
We can only bear witness to ourselves. What evidence do you have that you are you? What is your identity? Any papers you may have can be forgeries, so don't go there. Your finger prints and DNA are also unacceptable because that only tells me about your body, not who you are. Who can bear witness as to who you claim to be? There is only one Person who can. FATHER!


IMS Said
That's just sad - what you apply your keen mind to in order to hold on to your pet evils. PERSONALITY is changeless. I know who I am. But I'm all for de-funding the meta data collection on me by people who end up with all that data for the goal of telling me that there is no one who can be a witness to who I am.


What does the fact of personality being unchanging have to do with our discussion? And you accuse me of using my mind for evil. Do you really know who you are? It seems that you change positions with the wind.

You are nothing without Father.

I Must Speak wrote:
Paper 54 - page 615 - "....Although conscious and wholehearted identification with evil (sin) is the equivalent of nonexistence (annihilation) there must always intervene between the time of such personal identification with sin and the execution of the penalty - the automatic result of such a willful embrace of evil - a period of time of sufficient length to allow for such an adjudication of such an individual's universe status as will prove entirely satisfactory to all related universe personalities, and which will be so fair and just as to win the approval of the sinner himself.....But if the universe rebel against the reality of truth and goodness refuses to approve the verdict, and if the guilty one knows in his heart the justice of his condemnation but refuses to make such confession, then must the execution of sentence be delayed in accordance with the discretion of the Ancients of Days. And the Ancients of Days refuse to annihilate any being until all moral values and all spiritual realities are extinct, both in the evildoer and in all related supporters and possible sympathizers.....".


Thank you for the quote from a Mighty Messenger. Notice that here is presented what happens after a guilty verdict is reach in the Court of The Ancients of Days. This is called the penalty phase where mitigating circumstances are considered at the discretion of The AOD.


I Must Speak wrote:
Sincerely,

...well, what would be the point in signing my "name" since you won't accept that I can know who I am along with the Father, all local guardian angels that "know" me, and Mom


The only way that you can know yourself is to be the Will of God.

BTW, does your Mom know that you admitted to being a tyrant? :shock:


Regards, Louis


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I am with fanofvan on this issue. I think there is no need for a trial if the crime or offense is obvious. I think 'adjudication" just means handing down judgement. I think this is the weakness of our justice system here on earth. I really don't agree that the presumption of innocence until proven guilty in a trial applies in every case. Just like the Boston massacre, it is so obvious that the accused here is guilty. The trial, I believe, is just a waste of time and money. Does anyone think he will be found not guilty? What do you think would the whole nation's reaction be if the verdict is "not guilty"? No doubt no one will accept that verdict. Then why go to a trial if the whole nation already expect a guilty verdict? Is it just for formalities? I think it is just wasteful. There must be a better way. And I believe the universe justice is better and not wasteful.


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After some consideration I wish to return to the subject of this thread, "Jesus' words in the Urantia Book".



134:8.4 Jesus spent the last three weeks of August and the first three weeks of September on Mount Hermon. During these weeks he finished the mortal task of achieving the circles of mind-understanding and personality-control. Throughout this period of communion with his heavenly Father the indwelling Adjuster also completed the assigned services. The mortal goal of this earth creature was there attained. Only the final phase of mind and Adjuster attunement remained to be consummated.

How does the Midwayer Commission know what is going on in Jesus' mind? I may be wrong, but are not the achieving of the circles a subconscious act? We are told that Jesus' Personalized TA was a source of information. If this is true, is that not a betrayal of confidence? And once detached from the mind of Jesus, is the Personalized Adjuster allowed to reinvade the mind of Jesus, as another person, to know what he is thinking?



134:8.5 After more than five weeks of unbroken communion with his Paradise Father, Jesus became absolutely assured of his nature and of the certainty of his triumph over the material levels of time-space personality manifestation. He fully believed in, and did not hesitate to assert, the ascendancy of his divine nature over his human nature.

Again, how would anyone but Jesus know this unless he explicitly told someone? I see no quotation marks here.

134:8.6 Near the end of the mountain sojourn Jesus asked his Father if he might be permitted to hold conference with his Satania enemies as the Son of Man, as Joshua ben Joseph. This request was granted. During the last week on Mount Hermon the great temptation, the universe trial, occurred. Satan (representing Lucifer ) and the rebellious Planetary Prince, Caligastia, were present with Jesus and were made fully visible to him. And this “temptation,” this final trial of human loyalty in the face of the misrepresentations of rebel personalities, had not to do with food, temple pinnacles, or presumptuous acts. It had not to do with the kingdoms of this world but with the sovereignty of a mighty and glorious universe. The symbolism of your records was intended for the backward ages of the world’s childlike thought. And subsequent generations should understand what a great struggle the Son of Man passed through that eventful day on Mount Hermon.

Once again, how does anyone know this other than the parties involved. Did Lucifer give permission to Satan to represent him? That must be nothing other than an assumption. We are told that Caligastia was also present but were Satan and Caligastia present at the same time or on separate occasions in that last week? Or was it just one day? The Bible quotes Jesus as to, "Get thee behind me, Satan!". There is no mention of Lucifer or Caligastia in the Bible passage.

134:8.7 To the many proposals and counterproposals of the emissaries of Lucifer, Jesus only made reply: “May the will of my Paradise Father prevail, and you, my rebellious son, may the Ancients of Days judge you divinely. I am your Creator-father; I can hardly judge you justly, and my mercy you have already spurned. I commit you to the adjudication of the Judges of a greater universe.”

Who are the emissaries of Lucifer, pleural? Or was it just one rebellious son, singular? And again, did the rebels appoint Satan as their representative? Can't the other rebels speak for themselves? Here the words of Jesus are clearly in quotation. Jesus clearly refuses to be a judge in this or any matter regarding his son or sons.

134:8.8 To all the Lucifer-suggested compromises and makeshifts, to all such specious proposals about the incarnation bestowal, Jesus only made reply, “The will of my Father in Paradise be done.” And when the trying ordeal was finished, the detached guardian seraphim returned to Jesus’ side and ministered to him.

Wait a second, Lucifer is not even supposed to be present. Here someone is putting words in Lucifer's mouth. That is hearsay.

I asked a lot of questions but this is a section on 'Questions and Answers'.

Regards, Louis


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How does the Midwayer Commission know what is going on in Jesus' mind? I may be wrong, but are not the achieving of the circles a subconscious act? We are told that Jesus' Personalized TA was a source of information. If this is true, is that not a betrayal of confidence? And once detached from the mind of Jesus, is the Personalized Adjuster allowed to reinvade the mind of Jesus, as another person, to know what he is thinking?


My understanding is that the Personalized TA of Jesus retained Jesus memories and he did not have to "reinvade" the mind of Jesus.


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Once again, how does anyone know this other than the parties involved. Did Lucifer give permission to Satan to represent him? That must be nothing other than an assumption. We are told that Caligastia was also present but were Satan and Caligastia present at the same time or on separate occasions in that last week? Or was it just one day? The Bible quotes Jesus as to, "Get thee behind me, Satan!". There is no mention of Lucifer or Caligastia in the Bible passage.


Well, it has always been the job of Satan to represent Lucifer in his absence, He is his right hand man (sidekick so to speak).


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Louis - while I appreciate your opinion, it would appear you are "transferring" your knowledge of human justice and evidence onto the system and local universe administrative/judicial process in ways that contradict the clearly worded text. By example, the seraphim and Materials did not have a trial, did they? Why not? They were not found "innocent" nor "not guilty".....they were "found" to be repentant and sincere in their desire to receive the mercy ministry and sought rehabilitation and return to service. They were as "guilty" of rebellion and evil as Lucifer....but he has chosen not to submit.....mercy awaits his final decision (not the Uversa court's decision). The court is merely determining the ability or inability of the remaining interns to make this final decision.

Every thought, word, choice, motive, and act of the rebels (and those who remained loyal) are recorded (I recommend a review of the Celestial Artisans Paper 44 and the regarding the exactness of universe records - God knows the mind of every creature too) so I do not understand the fallacy of "hearsay" you keep bringing up or the lack of evidence you seem to promote or the question of guilt or innocence.....all interned were guilty of sedition....all who repented are released and removed from those who did not or have not yet repented as stated in the text provided already. Mercy was indeed extended without trial or verdict to every single rebel without exception and remains extended to those who have so far refused it. The punishment is self inflicted as also stated in text provided.

Michael forgives - not condemns....but true forgiveness requires acceptance and those who embrace iniquity and refuse mercy will eventually run out of mercy credits per the text. And just because we are not given all the facts in the UB does not even begin to suggest that Deity and the celestial record keepers suffer from any form of ignorance or misinformation. An absurd presumption. There have been hundreds of thousands of years, our time, for all the records to be researched and reviewed and those records include a replete evidentiary reconstruction. In this court of courts - guilt is NOT the issue; the issue for resolution is mercy and its ultimate and final and conscious rejection. Sorry but I think you're way out in left field on this one.

This will be my last post on the topic as I have said, often, I am not one so interested in the case or its adjudication and find no relevance to my own status or challenges in spirit progress. But I do think it important to acknowledge that the process described has a specific focus and result that does depend upon guilt or innocence. But for those of you fascinated by Lucifer's Folly, please carry on and I will follow along your discussion. But the Paper speaks clearly enough for me. Thanks all.

8)


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