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I Must Speak -- we'll give you that time out you've worked so hard to acquire; Your account is deactivated until January when we can welcome you back.

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Wow. I did not expect that, although in a way I am grateful. It will certainly make this conversation go better. I shall thank the Censors, although I regret it had to come to this.

Anyway, that little matter being concluded, shall we continue with our topic on the Divine Government? I would very much like to know everyone's thoughts on the matter. I am in the meat of the book right now. They are talking about the depths of the bureaucracy. They are giving us the data in detail, of course. Although it is detailed, I am beginning to see that the Divine Government does serve a purpose. And further, I can tell that said purpose is to our benefit. I do still worry, though, that power in the Divine Government could be misused, by those who are still mortal and learning. And the damage would make Hitler look like patty-cake. I know the UB seems to say that this is unlikely to occur, but it happened on Eath with Lucifer. So, ther you are.

Just a fear, you know? Again, I am not doubting the book, I merely have concerns.


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We are taught in the UB that all forms of worry, anxiety, and fear are mind poisons of the mortal and material mind that have some function and are normal enough in the material realms for our material safety and social unity but has no value and serious consequences in the efforts to spiritize the mind and build the soul. Fear of God or fear for God is misplaced. Fear that God is NOT in charge with full authority and power in purpose and in plan is fruitless. The universes are organized so that those closest to pure spirit and God in Paradise are the least susceptible to the errors potential in free will. The local universes are where it gets more interesting and free will includes more experiential error potential...but the consequences of error are limited in their range of effect.

As to bureaucracy, you will come to note that much of the universe is a university....an educational institution if you will, designed to present an organized education and experience at these lower levels of reality for those who are created specifically for ascension up through the hierarchy of knowledge and skill development for further creationism in the universes and in those realms still to be developed. One of the most thrilling aspects of the UB to me was this discovery.....there are trillions of trillions of ascenders all LEARNING AND DOING, not just BEING....learning how to do more and more better and better. It takes a little organization for such an adventure of both creating and ascending. Worry not as to its management or outcome. Love conquers all rejection and resistance over time and by experience. Every good thing and choice and act by each being at every level adds to the aggregate potential and power of the all. No worries....except for that choice which we face now and today and every day which offers us each that opportunity to grow and learn and become that which is our potential. Or so I think.

:wink: 8)

(183.1) 15:14.9 Your planet is a member of an enormous cosmos; you belong to a well-nigh infinite family of worlds, but your sphere is just as precisely administered and just as lovingly fostered as if it were the only inhabited world in all existence.

(166.8) 15:2.9 7. The Grand Universe. Seven superuniverses make up the present organized grand universe, consisting of approximately seven trillion inhabitable worlds plus the architectural spheres and the one billion inhabited spheres of Havona. The superuniverses are ruled and administered indirectly and reflectively from Paradise by the Seven Master Spirits. The billion worlds of Havona are directly administered by the Eternals of Days, one such Supreme Trinity Personality presiding over each of these perfect spheres.

(167.1) 15:2.10 Excluding the Paradise-Havona spheres, the plan of universe organization provides for the following units:

(167.2) 15:2.11 Superuniverses. . . . . . . . . . . . 7

(167.3) 15:2.12 Major sectors. . . . . . . . . . . . . 70

(167.4) 15:2.13 Minor sectors. . . . . . . . . . . . 7,000

(167.5) 15:2.14 Local universes . . . . . . . . . 700,000

(167.6) 15:2.15 Constellations . . . . . . . . .70,000,000

(167.7) 15:2.16 Local systems. . . . . . . . 7,000,000,000

(167.8) 15:2.17 Inhabitable planets . . 7,000,000,000,000

(167.9) 15:2.18 Each of the seven superuniverses is constituted, approximately, as follows:

(167.10) 15:2.19 One system embraces, approximately. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1,000 worlds

(167.11) 15:2.20 One constellation (100 systems) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .100,000 worlds

(167.12) 15:2.21 One universe (100 constellations) . . . . . . . . . . . 10,000,000 worlds

(167.13) 15:2.22 One minor sector (100 universes) . . . . . . . . . 1,000,000,000 worlds

(167.14) 15:2.23 One major sector (100 minor sectors) . . . . 100,000,000,000 worlds

(167.15) 15:2.24 One superuniverse (10 major sectors) . . .1,000,000,000,000 worlds

(167.16) 15:2.25 All such estimates are approximations at best, for new systems are constantly evolving while other organizations are temporarily passing out of material existence.


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Greetings, Brad:

I do recall those numbers from earlier in the text when I was reading. According to the text, it is an organised place, isn't it? The one thing that I can appreciate about the UB already is that it presents the universe around us as organised. Today's scientists often portray the universe (obviously, I am using the term "universe" in the 21st Century sense rather than in the early 20th Century sense; I mean the sum total of all space and time around us. I know the UB uses terms a bit differently, in the way they were used in the earlier part of the 20th Century) as increasing in entropy. In other words, they believe that from the Big Bang (which I am told [I don't know for sure, as I haven't read that far] the UB does not accept), the universe has been increasing in its random state, and that at some point, it will become completely disorganised, possibly so disorganised that it cannot support life.

That leads me to the next question. Does the book address that matter at all, and if so, how? Does the book come up with solutions for that matter, or no?

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Ya'akov


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The UB does not mention the big bang theory, which Wikipedia says was first discussed in 1927 and has been embellished since that time. Rather than refute, TUB promotes the view that as far as mortal creatures are concerned the universe has always existed and will always continue to exits -- no beginning, no end.

Perhaps a review of significant dates found in TUB will be helpful. The Urantia Book Timeline summarizes many of the significant dates from the book and can be found at
http://truthbook.com/urantia-book/urantia-book-timeline


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Greetings, Larry:

I read through the timeline you provided me, and it was quite helpful. I look forward to getting to that point in the UB when I reach the History of Urantia. I shall be curious as to exactly what the book says on the subject precisely.

But if I get your meaning right, we essentially live in a Steady State Universe. Would that be a correct statement?


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Hi Yaakov001,

Larry has stated that TUB does not refer to the Big Bang by name, and this is true, but you have read far enough in the papers that you must have come across the statement that the Central Universe of Havona flashed onto existence in the eternal past. This creation is not a time creation.

Also, the primary and secondary motions of space describe precisely a natural logarithmic spiral. This motion allows for infinite degrees of freedom when it comes to the motions of nature.

This spiral can be expressed in mathematical language as a simple expression of the form, y=e^x.

In this expression, e , is the base of the natural logarithm. Its derivative in the calculus is the exact same expression. It does not change. It is existent. It is not derived. Motion is, therefore, existent and not derived. Motion is existential. There was no time in the eternal past when there was no motion. There was never a singularity. Never was the I AM alone. The Creator has never been without his creation.

That is why motion cannot be calculated. God is not calculable and neither is this creation. Creation can be measured to a certain approximation and then computed to various degrees of accuracy (or inaccuracy). God has no limits and His creation is, in potential, unlimited also.

Bye Bye Big Bang.

Regards, Louis


Last edited by loucol on Mon Dec 01, 2014 2:11 pm +0000, edited 2 times in total.

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Yaakov001 wrote:
But if I get your meaning right, we essentially live in a Steady State Universe. Would that be a correct statement?


I apologize if I am intruding here, Yaakov, but I don't think Larry said that.

If you want to address the Universe in current scientific terms, TUB is most consistent with a cyclic universe. The only truly steady state existence is Paradise area. It is the only existence that is free of time and space considerations. Paradise is the only true invariance.

Regards, Louis


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Greetings, Louis:

You are in no way being intrusive. The more more input I can get, the better the knowledge I shall then have. My only difficulty is that I barely made it through College Algebra. I struggled to understand that. Calculus is completely beyond my ken. So, what, precisely, do you mean by the term "cyclic universe"? In my mind's eye, I get an image of a universe which expands and contracts, much like a set of lungs does. Does that at all come close to your meaning?

The idea that Creation is eternal would challenge, or at least seem to challenge, the sovereignty and power of an Almighty God, as it implies that he himself did not create it! This is problematic on many levels. If God cannot create, and be Lord of Creation, then he is not God. Creation is equal to him! Ergo, there are not 1, but 2 Gods! Then again, I have heard some Jews argue that Torah is co-eternal with God, and that God used it as a blueprint for creation, so there you are. I shall have to analyse the matter more thoroughly. What more can you tell me about this? Remember, my degrees are in history and philosophy, and I studied to be a cleric. None of this involves maths! *GRIN*


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Hi Yaakov,

Yaakov001 wrote:
Calculus is completely beyond my ken. So, what, precisely, do you mean by the term "cyclic universe"? In my mind's eye, I get an image of a universe which expands and contracts, much like a set of lungs does. Does that at all come close to your meaning?


Yes, the Universe breaths and don't worry about the calculus. I have shown that creation (motion) is not subject to the calculus, so relax. Calculus in Euclidean space relies on the ability to compute limits, and are useful only if limits exist. There are not limits with God.

The primary motion of space is respiration. This is the breathing universe. The Secondary motion of space is rotation. Both are absolute motions as they have Paradise as their reference. Together these motions are cyclic spiraling.


Yaakov001 wrote:
The idea that Creation is eternal would challenge, or at least seem to challenge, the sovereignty and power of an Almighty God, as it implies that he himself did not create it!


I see where this could be a problem if it were not true that creation is continuous. There never was a moment of creation. It it difficult for us to imagine an eternal past. But consider this, The Creator, by definition, must create. Creation must be in itself as eternal as its Creator. The Creator is forever primal, but this is only a philosophical concession to the human mind that needs references as to beginnings.

God cannot be calculated. His creation, likewise, is not subject to solutions to equations. Mathematics is the study of pattern. Pattern are copies and what matters are relationships. Mathematics as it relates to pattern is just the language of pattern. Paradise is the absolute of pattern.

Look for the spiral pattern of the Universe. Galaxies, hurricanes and tornados, sea shells, whirlpools, rotations of the planets, a rose, an ear, a heart, history as it repeats itself. To everything, turn turn turn; there is a season... :smile:

Regards, Louis


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Yaakov001 wrote:
The idea that Creation is eternal would challenge, or at least seem to challenge, the sovereignty and power of an Almighty God, as it implies that he himself did not create it!

loucol wrote:
I see where this could be a problem if it were not true that creation is continuous. There never was a moment of creation. It it difficult for us to imagine an eternal past. But consider this, The Creator, by definition, must create. Creation must be in itself as eternal as its Creator. The Creator is forever primal, but this is only a philosophical concession to the human mind that needs references as to beginnings.

Must the Creator create? That implies that God is IMPELLED to do something. If God is IMPELLED to do something, then how is he God at that point? The point of God is that he is omnipotent, omnibenevolent, and omniscient. If he is IMPELLED to create, then he has to cede some of his power (his omnipotence) to something else, even if that something else is outside circumstances. Jews have been taught to believe that God spoke the universe into being through one single act of pure love, not through necessity in any way, but through a single act of love. He did not need us in any way. We are the ones who need him.

loucol wrote:
God cannot be calculated. His creation, likewise, is not subject to solutions to equations. Mathematics is the study of pattern. Pattern are copies and what matters are relationships. Mathematics as it relates to pattern is just the language of pattern. Paradise is the absolute of pattern.

Look for the spiral pattern of the Universe. Galaxies, hurricanes and tornados, sea shells, whirlpools, rotations of the planets, a rose, an ear, a heart, history as it repeats itself. To everything, turn turn turn; there is a season... :smile:

Regards, Louis

I certainly won't dispute that there are patterns in Creation of a mathematical nature. As far back as Pythagoras this was known, and even earlier. ALL of Creation can be portrayed in terms of mathematics, in fact. My failure to understand the subject does not change that fact. However, that does not imply that Creation is eternal. Just as there is such a thing as Zero (remember, the Romans didn't know this), it is possible to theorise, as Jews and others do, that there was a time when Creation was not.

Please know that I am not questioning you to be a jerk, but only to present an alternative line of thought for you to pursue. I am fascinated by all the new theories and ideas being presented here. It is quite interesting, as is this book we are all reading.

Regards,
Ya'akov


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Hi Ya'akov,
Yaakov001 wrote:
Must the Creator create? That implies that God is IMPELLED to do something.


God acts only by volition. He is only limited by His own volition. God creates because it is His perfect volition and certainly not by compulsion. His act of creation was certainly an act of pure love, and this infinite Personality bestows personality to love and be loved. All persons need love. Why would He not need us? Then why do we exist if not for love?

What was the Creator doing before this theoretical time before creation?

Yaakov001 wrote:
Jews have been taught to believe that God spoke the universe into being through one single act of pure love, not through necessity in any way, but through a single act of love.


God is love, so what was there for Him to love in this void you referred to as zero? And after this theoretical moment of creation, this single act, was love required no longer?

God is eternal therefore love is eternal. This in no way is meant disrespectfully, but a lover needs a lover. God is love so, by volition, God is in continuous acts of love. And there was no time in which He did not act in love. God is Personality and God is love. Love is a verb and there was never a time in the eternal past that God did not act, and all actions require creation.

God cannot exist by himself lest He is not God. He is the uncaused cause but He is cause. He is One who depends on no other, but all creation is dependent upon Him. And we serve our brothers at His pleasure and we worship Him. :smile:

Regards, Louis


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loucol wrote:
Hi Ya'akov,
Yaakov001 wrote:
Must the Creator create? That implies that God is IMPELLED to do something.


God acts only by volition. He is only limited by His own volition. God creates because it is His perfect volition and certainly not by compulsion. His act of creation was certainly an act of pure love, and this infinite Personality bestows personality to love and be loved. All persons need love. Why would He not need us? Then why do we exist if not for love?

What was the Creator doing before this theoretical time before creation?

Well, he could have been doing anything, but your point is well taken.
Yaakov001 wrote:
Jews have been taught to believe that God spoke the universe into being through one single act of pure love, not through necessity in any way, but through a single act of love.

loucol wrote:
God is love, so what was there for Him to love in this void you referred to as zero? And after this theoretical moment of creation, this single act, was love required no longer?

God is eternal therefore love is eternal. This in no way is meant disrespectfully, but a lover needs a lover. God is love so, by volition, God is in continuous acts of love. And there was no time in which He did not act in love. God is Personality and God is love. Love is a verb and there was never a time in the eternal past that God did not act, and all actions require creation.

God cannot exist by himself lest He is not God. He is the uncaused cause but He is cause. He is One who depends on no other, but all creation is dependent upon Him. And we serve our brothers at His pleasure and we worship Him. :smile:

Regards, Louis

I see your point. So you are suggesting that because God loves, there must be something for him to love. That does make a certain level of sense. I would have to think more thoroughly on that, but I would be willing to accept that as possibly axiomatic. But, if God is eternal, and Creation is eternal, then when did he start to Create? What came first, the Chicken or the Egg? It becomes an unanswerable question. Almost like trying to calculate Pi out to the last digit. It can't be done, you see.


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the way i understood it was that only the perfect central universe of Havona is an eternal creation and the seven time-space evolutionary superuniverses (perfecting) have beginnings and ends...but those "ends" are really just transitions to new forms. Because we mortals are unable to grasp eternity and must think within a framework in which everything has a beginning, the revelators gave an artificially sequential description of the creation of Havona here:

Quote:
1. THE GOD OF ACTION


8:1.1 In the eternity of the past, upon the personalization of the Infinite Spirit the divine personality cycle becomes perfect and complete. The God of Action is existent, and the vast stage of space is set for the stupendous drama of creation—the universal adventure—the divine panorama of the eternal ages.

8:1.2 The first act of the Infinite Spirit is the inspection and recognition of his divine parents, the Father-Father and the Mother-Son. He, the Spirit, unqualifiedly identifies both of them. He is fully cognizant of their separate personalities and infinite attributes as well as of their combined nature and united function. Next, voluntarily, with transcendent willingness and inspiring spontaneity, the Third Person of Deity, notwithstanding his equality with the First and Second Persons, pledges eternal loyalty to God the Father and acknowledges everlasting dependence upon God the Son.

8:1.3 Inherent in the nature of this transaction and in mutual recognition of the personality independence of each and the executive union of all three, the cycle of eternity is established. The Paradise Trinity is existent. The stage of universal space is set for the manifold and never-ending panorama of the creative unfolding of the purpose of the Universal Father through the personality of the Eternal Son and by the execution of the God of Action, the executive agency for the reality performances of the Father-Son creator partnership.

8:1.4 The God of Action functions and the dead vaults of space are astir. One billion perfect spheres flash into existence. Prior to this hypothetical eternity moment the space-energies inherent in Paradise are existent and potentially operative, but they have no actuality of being; neither can physical gravity be measured except by the reaction of material realities to its incessant pull. There is no material universe at this (assumed) eternally distant moment, but the very instant that one billion worlds materialize, there is in evidence gravity sufficient and adequate to hold them in the everlasting grasp of Paradise.

8:1.5 There now flashes through the creation of the Gods the second form of energy, and this outflowing spirit is instantly grasped by the spiritual gravity of the Eternal Son. Thus the twofold gravity-embraced universe is touched with the energy of infinity and immersed in the spirit of divinity. In this way is the soil of life prepared for the consciousness of mind made manifest in the associated intelligence circuits of the Infinite Spirit.

8:1.6 Upon these seeds of potential existence, diffused throughout the central creation of the Gods, the Father acts, and creature personality appears. Then does the presence of the Paradise Deities fill all organized space and begin effectively to draw all things and beings Paradiseward.

8:1.7 The Infinite Spirit eternalizes concurrently with the birth of the Havona worlds, this central universe being created by him and with him and in him in obedience to the combined concepts and united wills of the Father and the Son. The Third Person deitizes by this very act of conjoint creation, and he thus forever becomes the Conjoint Creator.

8:1.8 These are the grand and awful times of the creative expansion of the Father and the Son by, and in, the action of their conjoint associate and exclusive executive, the Third Source and Center. There exists no record of these stirring times. We have only the meager disclosures of the Infinite Spirit to substantiate these mighty transactions, and he merely verifies the fact that the central universe and all that pertains thereto eternalized simultaneously with his attainment of personality and conscious existence.

8:1.9 In brief, the Infinite Spirit testifies that, since he is eternal, so also is the central universe eternal. And this is the traditional starting point of the history of the universe of universes. Absolutely nothing is known, and no records are in existence, regarding any event or transaction prior to this stupendous eruption of creative energy and administrative wisdom that crystallized the vast universe which exists, and so exquisitely functions, at the center of all things. Beyond this event lie the unsearchable transactions of eternity and the depths of infinity—absolute mystery.

8:1.10 And we thus portray the sequential origin of the Third Source and Center as an interpretative condescension to the time-bound and space-conditioned mind of mortal creatures. The mind of man must have a starting point for the visualization of universe history, and I have been directed to provide this technique of approach to the historic concept of eternity. In the material mind, consistency demands a First Cause; therefore do we postulate the Universal Father as the First Source and the Absolute Center of all creation, at the same time instructing all creature minds that the Son and the Spirit are coeternal with the Father in all phases of universe history and in all realms of creative activity. And we do this without in any sense being disregardful of the reality and eternity of the Isle of Paradise and of the Unqualified, Universal, and Deity Absolutes.

8:1.11 It is enough of a reach of the material mind of the children of time to conceive of the Father in eternity. We know that any child can best relate himself to reality by first mastering the relationships of the child-parent situation and then by enlarging this concept to embrace the family as a whole. Subsequently the growing mind of the child will be able to adjust to the concept of family relations, to relationships of the community, the race, and the world, and then to those of the universe, the superuniverse, even the universe of universes.



and an explanation for the never-ending cosmos is here:

Quote:
115:3.16 The final dynamics of the cosmos have to do with the continual transfer of reality from potentiality to actuality. In theory, there may be an end to this metamorphosis, but in fact, such is impossible since the Potential and the Actual are both encircuited in the Original (the I AM), and this identification makes it forever impossible to place a limit on the developmental progression of the universe. Whatsoever is identified with the I AM can never find an end to progression since the actuality of the potentials of the I AM is absolute, and the potentiality of the actuals of the I AM is also absolute. Always will actuals be opening up new avenues of the realization of hitherto impossible potentials—every human decision not only actualizes a new reality in human experience but also opens up a new capacity for human growth. The man lives in every child, and the morontia progressor is resident in the mature God-knowing man.

115:3.17 Statics in growth can never appear in the total cosmos since the basis for growth—the absolute actuals—is unqualified, and since the possibilities for growth—the absolute potentials—are unlimited. From a practical viewpoint the philosophers of the universe have come to the conclusion that there is no such thing as an end.

115:3.18 From a circumscribed view there are, indeed, many ends, many terminations of activities, but from a larger viewpoint on a higher universe level, there are no endings, merely transitions from one phase of development to another. The major chronicity of the master universe is concerned with the several universe ages, the Havona, the superuniverse, and the outer universe ages. But even these basic divisions of sequence relationships cannot be more than relative landmarks on the unending highway of eternity.

115:3.19 The final penetration of the truth, beauty, and goodness of the Supreme Being could only open up to the progressing creature those absonite qualities of ultimate divinity which lie beyond the concept levels of truth, beauty, and goodness.


I found it helpful in contemplating creation to understand that God The Father only deals with personalities and not with material creations, eternal creation is an act of the Infinite Spirit and time-space creations are an act of the Paradise Sons. Just fyi and for purposes of practicality, the papers reveal that our local universe Nebadon began forming about 987 billion years ago.


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Hi Ya'akov, Makalu referenced lots of good quotes for you.

Makalu wrote:
I found it helpful in contemplating creation to understand that God The Father only deals with personalities and not with material creations, eternal creation is an act of the Infinite Spirit and time-space creations are an act of the Paradise Sons.


This suggestion from Makalu is very helpful. Also contemplate God The Father without a Son; just can't be.

Yaakov001 wrote:
But, if God is eternal, and Creation is eternal, then when did he start to Create?


If you have to ask when, then the concept of eternity still eludes you. You must take it on faith. :smile:


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