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Greetings, Makalu:
Greetings, Louis:

There is much in Makalu's post that would take a great deal of thought before I could fully respond. I think it would be helpful to reread the entire Eighth Chapter. I shall endeavour to do that, actually. I was lucky just a few minutes ago, and was able to obtain a copy of the British Study Edition of The Urantia Papers (TUB), complete with notes. This was on my Kindle App for my phone, actually. So, allow me to read that Chapter, and then allow me to return here and give you both my responses thereto. I shall do so directly. And then come back.

Regards,
Ya'akov


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A review of Paper 3 may also be warranted regarding the nature and attributes of God:

Paper 3

The Attributes of God

(44.1) 3:0.1 GOD is everywhere present; the Universal Father rules the circle of eternity. But he rules in the local universes in the persons of his Paradise Creator Sons, even as he bestows life through these Sons. “God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Sons.” These Creator Sons of God are the personal expression of himself in the sectors of time and to the children of the whirling planets of the evolving universes of space.

(44.2) 3:0.2 The highly personalized Sons of God are clearly discernible by the lower orders of created intelligences, and so do they compensate for the invisibility of the infinite and therefore less discernible Father. The Paradise Creator Sons of the Universal Father are a revelation of an otherwise invisible being, invisible because of the absoluteness and infinity inherent in the circle of eternity and in the personalities of the Paradise Deities.

(44.3) 3:0.3 Creatorship is hardly an attribute of God; it is rather the aggregate of his acting nature. And this universal function of creatorship is eternally manifested as it is conditioned and controlled by all the co-ordinated attributes of the infinite and divine reality of the First Source and Center. We sincerely doubt whether any one characteristic of the divine nature can be regarded as being antecedent to the others, but if such were the case, then the creatorship nature of Deity would take precedence over all other natures, activities, and attributes. And the creatorship of Deity culminates in the universal truth of the Fatherhood of God.

1. God’s Everywhereness

(44.4) 3:1.1 The ability of the Universal Father to be everywhere present, and at the same time, constitutes his omnipresence. God alone can be in two places, in numberless places, at the same time.....

2. God’s Infinite Power

(46.5) 3:2.1 All the universes know that “the Lord God omnipotent reigns.” The affairs of this world and other worlds are divinely supervised. “He does according to his will in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth.” It is eternally true, “there is no power but of God.”

3. God’s Universal Knowledge

(48.8) 3:3.1 “God knows all things.” The divine mind is conscious of, and conversant with, the thought of all creation. His knowledge of events is universal and perfect. The divine entities going out from him are a part of him; he who “balances the clouds” is also “perfect in knowledge.” “The eyes of the Lord are in every place.” Said your great teacher of the insignificant sparrow, “One of them shall not fall to the ground without my Father’s knowledge,” and also, “The very hairs of your head are numbered.” “He tells the number of the stars; he calls them all by their names.”

(49.1) 3:3.2 The Universal Father is the only personality in all the universe who does actually know the number of the stars and planets of space. All the worlds of every universe are constantly within the consciousness of God....

5. The Father’s Supreme Rule

(50.6) 3:5.1 In his contact with the post-Havona creations, the Universal Father does not exercise his infinite power and final authority by direct transmittal but rather through his Sons and their subordinate personalities. And God does all this of his own free will. Any and all powers delegated, if occasion should arise, if it should become the choice of the divine mind, could be exercised direct; but, as a rule, such action only takes place as a result of the failure of the delegated personality to fulfill the divine trust. At such times and in the face of such default and within the limits of the reservation of divine power and potential, the Father does act independently and in accordance with the mandates of his own choice; and that choice is always one of unfailing perfection and infinite wisdom.

(51.1) 3:5.2 The Father rules through his Sons; on down through the universe organization there is an unbroken chain of rulers ending with the Planetary Princes, who direct the destinies of the evolutionary spheres of the Father’s vast domains.

6. The Father’s Primacy

(52.4) 3:6.1 With divine selflessness, consummate generosity, the Universal Father relinquishes authority and delegates power, but he is still primal; his hand is on the mighty lever of the circumstances of the universal realms; he has reserved all final decisions and unerringly wields the all-powerful veto scepter of his eternal purpose with unchallengeable authority over the welfare and destiny of the outstretched, whirling, and ever-circling creation.

(52.5) 3:6.2 The sovereignty of God is unlimited; it is the fundamental fact of all creation. The universe was not inevitable. The universe is not an accident, neither is it self-existent. The universe is a work of creation and is therefore wholly subject to the will of the Creator. The will of God is divine truth, living love; therefore are the perfecting creations of the evolutionary universes characterized by goodness — nearness to divinity; by potential evil — remoteness from divinity.

Me here: the love of God is more his nature than an attribute, it defines the personality that is the source of all else, including all mind and personality at every level of all the universes; indeed, the universes are a family love fest, organized to extend and experience that love one to another. We are measured by and progress by our "love response" or what I call our response-ability, the experiential wisdom skill of knowing how to act and why in every circumstance as an agent of and ambassador for the universe family of love:

(40.1) 2:5.9 The Father’s love follows us now and throughout the endless circle of the eternal ages. As you ponder the loving nature of God, there is only one reasonable and natural personality reaction thereto: You will increasingly love your Maker; you will yield to God an affection analogous to that given by a child to an earthly parent; for, as a father, a real father, a true father, loves his children, so the Universal Father loves and forever seeks the welfare of his created sons and daughters.

(40.2) 2:5.10 But the love of God is an intelligent and farseeing parental affection. The divine love functions in unified association with divine wisdom and all other infinite characteristics of the perfect nature of the Universal Father. God is love, but love is not God. The greatest manifestation of the divine love for mortal beings is observed in the bestowal of the Thought Adjusters, but your greatest revelation of the Father’s love is seen in the bestowal life of his Son Michael as he lived on earth the ideal spiritual life. It is the indwelling Adjuster who individualizes the love of God to each human soul.

(40.3) 2:5.11 At times I am almost pained to be compelled to portray the divine affection of the heavenly Father for his universe children by the employment of the human word symbol love. This term, even though it does connote man’s highest concept of the mortal relations of respect and devotion, is so frequently designative of so much of human relationship that is wholly ignoble and utterly unfit to be known by any word which is also used to indicate the matchless affection of the living God for his universe creatures! How unfortunate that I cannot make use of some supernal and exclusive term which would convey to the mind of man the true nature and exquisitely beautiful significance of the divine affection of the Paradise Father.


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Greetings, Makalu, Louis, and Brad:

I wish to start with a quote from Brad's entry:

QUOTE: "(52.5) 3:6.2 The sovereignty of God is unlimited; it is the fundamental fact of all creation. The universe was not inevitable. The universe is not an accident, neither is it self-existent. The universe is a work of creation and is therefore wholly subject to the will of the Creator. The will of God is divine truth, living love; therefore are the perfecting creations of the evolutionary universes characterized by goodness — nearness to divinity; by potential evil — remoteness from divinity." END QUOTE

This is a key line, or so it seems to me. This makes it very clear that the Created is the subject to the Creator at all times. I shall read on with Ch. 26, and simply come back to the whole question of the eternity of creation (or at least Havona) at a later date. Perhaps my second time through the book will be a good time to deal with that subject.

I think it should be clear though, that the creation cannot be equal to the Creator. Even if God is Love, and Love needs something TO love, and thus he had to create, he is still superior to his creation. I am still uncertain about God being obligated in some way to Create. that bothers me in some indefinable way. I would prefer that he CHOSE to create, and even then, not to fulfill some longing in himself, but rather, out of pure love and kindness. Perhaps after that he realised he loved us. I am not sure. I must read and analyse further.


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Yaakov001 wrote:
Greetings, Larry: But if I get your meaning right, we essentially live in a Steady State Universe. Would that be a correct statement?


I think loucol answered this already.....all that IS exists in a state of equilibrium or a harmonious balance, neither shrinking nor expanding in any singular direction but both directions alternately, and not in a steady state either - lots still going on and far more yet to come. As creation continues, any mass or energy or force required to maintain equilibrium is created as needed for that continuous balance. When you get there, Paper 29 will help explain the organizational aspects of this in more detail. Always something to look forward to, yes? Modern science, despite the UB acclaimed scientific method employed by modern science, has no clue what's going on in even the visible corner we can peer at today, let alone the entirety of creation because they do not seek a source and center of creation and management nor the actual creation process. Their godless mechanical solutions they devise to explain the contradictions encountered have them in quite the tail-chase.

However, the method will eventually lead to unexpected realities and solutions to their problems which will result in only one conclusion - purposeful creationism in a well managed universe of evolutionary progress. We are also told (somewhere) that sufficient time brings increasing stability to physical creation. There are two forms of physical creation as I recall - evolutionary and architectural - one is perfecting over time and the latter is perfect upon its creation. Evolutionary space is the realm of the birth places of mortals, the lowest order of being and most distant from Paradise and universe reality. Time is that gift which allows such ones to make the longest and greatest trip of ascendency as the children of God. We are the lowest and yet the most blessed too. Fascinating to consider.

As to eternity.....there's a brain scrambler for us all. We are told the concept itself will never be understood by us for a long, long time and not really understood then. What has no beginning? What has no end? We may conceive of no ending but we cannot so conceive no beginning. However, the contemplation of such reality is a good thing. It can help the mind transcend its limits somewhat I think to face the enormity of such a possibility. We live IN time but God does not. God created time with purpose and one such purpose I think is to share absoluteness incrementally and experientially - the only way to share some of what only God knows with those who cannot know such or not without God's embrace in Paradise (if then). The UB describes an adventure that will never end for those who seek God and learn to love one another, embracing the reality that WE ARE FAMILY!!

8)


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Yaakov001 wrote:
I am still uncertain about God being obligated in some way to Create. that bothers me in some indefinable way. I would prefer that he CHOSE to create, and even then, not to fulfill some longing in himself, but rather, out of pure love and kindness. Perhaps after that he realised he loved us. I am not sure. I must read and analyse further.


I think someone posted this already but there is this from the Forward:

(5.8) 0:3.9 God, as the First Source and Center, is primal in relation to total reality — unqualifiedly. The First Source and Center is infinite as well as eternal and is therefore limited or conditioned only by volition.

(6.6) 0:4.1 Reality differentially actualizes on diverse universe levels; reality originates in and by the infinite volition of the Universal Father....

Willpower and volition are colloquial and scientific terms (respectively) for the same process. When a person makes up his or her mind to do a thing, that state is termed 'immanent volition'. When we put forth any particular act of choice, that act is called an emanant, executive, or imperative volition. When an immanent or settled state of choice controls or governs a series of actions, that state is termed predominant volition. Subordinate volitions are particular acts of choice which carry into effect the object sought for by the governing or predominant volition. (This paragraph from Wikipedia Dictionary)

You say well Ya'akov....God's love and all creation is an expression of his free will choice - volition. He has no obligation BUT to his volition, his choosing. And he gives such volition to all of his created beings as well. We've come full circle now to our earlier discussion about the hierarchy of free will and its range of effect upon others...for only God truly has limitless and unconstrained free will whose range of effect is also limitless and endless - predominant vs. subordinate - God is subordinate to none while all of creation IS subordinate to God's volition. The First Source and Center is also the destiny of all being in one form of circuitry or another. Or so I think.

8)


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Greetings, Brad:

Well, certainly God would create of his own volition, and not because anyone commanded him to do so, or because he was obligated to do so. At the same time, your definition ALMOST seems to set up a situation whereby once God starts to create, of his own freewill, he is unable to not create any further. It seems like once the creation begins, it must continue. Which is an INTERESTING situation, at least. According to standard science, the Big Bang 13.8 billion ya started the Universe, which has been expanding ever since. If you believe that God caused the Big Bang, then if the Universe is expanding, then by definition, creation continues.

So if in fact TUB is correct, then in fact, God IS continuing to create, because he wants to. But it does still raise that interesting question of, could God NOT create if he wanted to, or is he in some sense obligated TO create? A yes answer to the last question would seem to take away from the Omnipotence of God, and yet... The same thing could be asked about the Big Bang expansion. Could God stop the expansion? If not, does that take away from his omnipotence? If yes, what would that do to all life in the Universe? WOW! What if God stopped creating in TUB? What would happen to life then?


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Yes, lots of "what ifs" to contemplate and conjecture about indeed. But God is volitional...he is not encumbered by anything BUT his volition...or freedom of choice. There was no big bang and creationism is still vital and on going, yes. The potential for such additional creationism is limited by the size of space itself.....beyond measure or comprehension. The UB does specifically state such a future and we are to be part of that cycle as well. Wonderful. Exhilirating.


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fanofVan wrote:
Yes, lots of "what ifs" to contemplate and conjecture about indeed. But God is volitional...he is not encumbered by anything BUT his volition...or freedom of choice. There was no big bang and creationism is still vital and on going, yes. The potential for such additional creationism is limited by the size of space itself.....beyond measure or comprehension. The UB does specifically state such a future and we are to be part of that cycle as well. Wonderful. Exhilirating.

But, how could God be encumbered by his own volition? Surely he could refuse to create if he so wished, no? By stating that he is encumbered by his volition, it seems to suggest that God is limited by something. I suppose on a certain level, one could say that he is limited by the laws of logic. For example, he wouldn't be able to create a married bachelor.

So, I think that is the key question. Can God refuse to create? Because if he is unable to refuse, that makes him out to be less than God. Lets use the Ontological Argument.

1. I can conceive of a being a greater than which cannot possibly be conceived.
2. Existence is greater than non-existence.
3. Ergo, God exists.

But, if God cannot NOT create, then he is NOT Omnipotent. If he MUST create, then he is a limited being. I can conceive of a being who can either create or NOT create at his own volition. That being is greater than the one you are conceiving of right now. Ergo, my being is greater than yours. Ergo, my concept of God exists, and yours does not.

So, where does that leave us? We have a conundrum. So I ask you. Do you think that God MUST create? Is he free NOT to create?


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Some Food for Thought ...

5. Omnipotence and Compossibility

(1299.1) 118:5.1 The omnipotence of Deity does not imply the power to do the nondoable. Within the time-space frame and from the intellectual reference point of mortal comprehension, even the infinite God cannot create square circles or produce evil that is inherently good. God cannot do the ungodlike thing. Such a contradiction of philosophic terms is the equivalent of nonentity and implies that nothing is thus created. A personality trait cannot at the same time be Godlike and ungodlike. Compossibility is innate in divine power. And all of this is derived from the fact that omnipotence not only creates things with a nature but also gives origin to the nature of all things and beings.

(1299.2) 118:5.2 In the beginning the Father does all, but as the panorama of eternity unfolds in response to the will and mandates of the Infinite, it becomes increasingly apparent that creatures, even men, are to become God’s partners in the realization of finality of destiny. And this is true even in the life in the flesh; when man and God enter into partnership, no limitation can be placed upon the future possibilities of such a partnership. When man realizes that the Universal Father is his partner in eternal progression, when he fuses with the indwelling Father presence, he has, in spirit, broken the fetters of time and has already entered upon the progressions of eternity in the quest for the Universal Father.

(1299.3) 118:5.3 Mortal consciousness proceeds from the fact, to the meaning, and then to the value. Creator consciousness proceeds from the thought-value, through the word-meaning, to the fact of action. Always must God act to break the deadlock of the unqualified unity inherent in existential infinity. Always must Deity provide the pattern universe, the perfect personalities, the original truth, beauty, and goodness for which all subdeity creations strive. Always must God first find man that man may later find God. Always must there be a Universal Father before there can ever be universal sonship and consequent universal brotherhood.


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coop wrote:
Some Food for Thought ...

5. Omnipotence and Compossibility

(1299.1) 118:5.1 The omnipotence of Deity does not imply the power to do the nondoable. Within the time-space frame and from the intellectual reference point of mortal comprehension, even the infinite God cannot create square circles or produce evil that is inherently good. God cannot do the ungodlike thing. Such a contradiction of philosophic terms is the equivalent of nonentity and implies that nothing is thus created. A personality trait cannot at the same time be Godlike and ungodlike. Compossibility is innate in divine power. And all of this is derived from the fact that omnipotence not only creates things with a nature but also gives origin to the nature of all things and beings.

God cannot create a married bachelor. QED!

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(1299.2) 118:5.2 In the beginning the Father does all, but as the panorama of eternity unfolds in response to the will and mandates of the Infinite, it becomes increasingly apparent that creatures, even men, are to become God’s partners in the realization of finality of destiny. And this is true even in the life in the flesh; when man and God enter into partnership, no limitation can be placed upon the future possibilities of such a partnership. When man realizes that the Universal Father is his partner in eternal progression, when he fuses with the indwelling Father presence, he has, in spirit, broken the fetters of time and has already entered upon the progressions of eternity in the quest for the Universal Father.

But it should be noted here that if we ARE God's partners in the realisation of finaity of destiny, that is only because God so permits us to be. He certainly would not be required to in any way, I wouldn't think.

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(1299.3) 118:5.3 Mortal consciousness proceeds from the fact, to the meaning, and then to the value. Creator consciousness proceeds from the thought-value, through the word-meaning, to the fact of action. Always must God act to break the deadlock of the unqualified unity inherent in existential infinity. Always must Deity provide the pattern universe, the perfect personalities, the original truth, beauty, and goodness for which all subdeity creations strive. Always must God first find man that man may later find God. Always must there be a Universal Father before there can ever be universal sonship and consequent universal brotherhood.

This goes without saying. Of course God must provide the pattern universe. If one considers a chessboard, we are playing a game, but at the same time, there is a clean, mathematical feature to the game that only God could create. Yes, humans created chess, but God created the mathematics upon which the game is based. The same can be said of all logical connections.

Regards,
Ya'akov


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3:0.3 Creatorship is hardly an attribute of God; it is rather the aggregate of his acting nature. And this universal function of creatorship is eternally manifested as it is conditioned and controlled by all the co-ordinated attributes of the infinite and divine reality of the First Source and Center. We sincerely doubt whether any one characteristic of the divine nature can be regarded as being antecedent to the others, but if such were the case, then the creatorship nature of Deity would take precedence over all other natures, activities, and attributes. And the creatorship of Deity culminates in the universal truth of the Fatherhood of God.


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115:1.4 The realms of the finite exist by virtue of the eternal purpose of God. Finite creatures, high and low, may propound theories, and have done so, as to the necessity of the finite in the cosmic economy, but in the last analysis it exists because God so willed. The universe cannot be explained, neither can a finite creature offer a rational reason for his own individual existence without appealing to the prior acts and pre-existent volition of ancestral beings, Creators or procreators.


between the above and the quote in my last post regarding never-ending growth it appears to me that both creatorship and growth are inherent in the divine nature...and i dont think you can logically ask the philosophical question "can god choose to not create" without making god less than eternal-infinite since in eternity ALL IS...only has all not yet been revealed in time and space.


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Greetings, Makalu:

Now THAT is an interesting response! I would have to think more thoroughly on it, but the proposition that God, by definition, IS a Creator, and can no more stop creating than we can stop breathing may be a way out of this question. If suggesting that God not creating is as illogical as God creating a married bachelor, then I could accept that as axiomatic. QED.


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My Brother Yaakov001 8)

Either I Misunderstand you or you may misunderstand the quotes i posted .

You seem to be asking Philosophic questions an analoges Similar
To Can GOD Create a Rock that he can not Lift ?

IMO GOD Always Was an will BE .

GODs Will Be Done an IS Done

He Makes his own rules , laws that he created an does .

Can He Change them ... or will he ?

Can or could GOD Self annihilate himself an his creations ?

I Dont Know but in my faith i believe his Love For His Creations n creatures

that GOD Will Never Do So ... Because Of His LOVE .

PS. I Hope you May forgive my lack of inability to fully express myself in
writeing this an hope that you understand what im trying to say .

HIS Will BE Done ! ... Regardless ,... Correct ?

Peace 8)

Faith son Coop


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Greetings, Coop:

I do think I understand what you are trying to say. And no, I am not deliberately trying to ask questions meant to be unanswerable. The question of whether God is able NOT to create is a sincere question. But, as per the following, this issue may have a solution:
Yaakov001 wrote:
Greetings, Makalu:

Now THAT is an interesting response! I would have to think more thoroughly on it, but the proposition that God, by definition, IS a Creator, and can no more stop creating than we can stop breathing may be a way out of this question. If suggesting that God not creating is as illogical as God creating a married bachelor, then I could accept that as axiomatic. QED.

The idea that God MUST create, as it is inherent to his nature, is interesting. So it would make God, Omnibenevolent, Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omni-teleological, if you will. The All-Good, the All-Powerful, the All-Knowing, and the All-Designing. God could no more quit Designing than he could quit being Good, Powerful, or Knowing. It's definitely a new thought, and possibly one that could revolutionise the way in which humans think about their Creator. The Argument from Ontology did this as well. Observe:

1. I can conceive of a being a greater than which cannot possibly be conceived.
2. Existence is greater than non-existence.
3. Ergo, God exists.

This already, in addition to God being All-Good, All-Knowing, and All-Powerful, makes him All-Existent. We are here proposing that he is All-Designing as well.

So, in a nutshell God is:
1. Omnipotent.
2. Omnibenevolent.
3. Omniscient.
4.Omni-existent.
5.Omni-teleological.

These traits are enough to truly account for God's character as God. But many would not accept the last two. Trait 4 has been argued ever since Archbishop Anselm presented the idea 1000 years ago. Now, we UB readers want to add another? That's going to weewee the atheists off! Well, betting being pissed off than pissed on!


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IMO ITs Very Simple ....

GODs Will IS DONE !

ITs Mankinds Misunderstanding ... of his will that gets confused eh


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