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Greetings:

I am a quasi-new reader of the UB. By that I mean I have been reading the book off and on since 2005, but haven't gotten too far. Something has always gotten me distracted. At this point, I have read Chapters 1-18 and a good portion of the section on the History of Urantia.

I can tell you one thing that horrifies me already. I grew up in a government household. Mom worked for the State of California. Dad worked for the Federal Government. Brother ended up joining the Army. Dad had been in the Navy at one time. I lived in Government Housing. In other words, one could NOT avoid the bureaucracy, no matter how hard one tried. THEY were always there.

And now that I read the UB, it almost sounds like after I die, there will be more of SAME! I will go from Urantia to the next ordered level, and then to the next level, and onward, and onward, and onward, almost to the point of eternity, until at some time in the almost unforeseeable future when I will get to Paradise.

Am I right about this? Enduring Divine Bureaucracy from now until only God knows when? Because to be honest, that sounds hideous! Somebody PLEASE explain this in some other way! Help me out here, people. I am not writing this to be snide. I am genuinely concerned. I am subject to the bureaucracy even today, because I am on Disability and Government Health. Every day I deal with the State in some capacity. It was just my luck to deal with some severe medical problems that made me unable to work at age 30. Of course, I had to fight for it, and the bureaucracy didn't give it to me until I was about 35 when I finally had a heart attack, but there you are.

But the idea of being subject to the bureaucracy after I die after having to do it now sounds, not like Paradise, but like a living hell. So, can someone who knows the book better than I PLEASE explain this for me. So far after 18 chapters my brain is just spinning with all this organisational structure and I am going, "oh, felgerkarb, you can't possibly be serious. I am going to live like this when I die? No thank you!"

I look forward to ANYONE who can answer this for me. Thank you in advance. Peace.

Ya'akov


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IMO, the bureaucracy here on earth would be the most imperfect you would deal with. As we ascend, we will deal with a bureaucracy that is closer and closer to perfection. I think it is good that we see the imperfection of a bureaucracy now here on earth so we will better appreciate the higher and more perfect bureaucracy that we will deal with later on in our ascension career.


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YSMAEL wrote:
IMO, the bureaucracy here on earth would be the most imperfect you would deal with. As we ascend, we will deal with a bureaucracy that is closer and closer to perfection. I think it is good that we see the imperfection of a bureaucracy now here on earth so we will better appreciate the higher and more perfect bureaucracy that we will deal with later on in our ascension career.

My concern, of course, is that there is bureaucracy at all, no matter how perfect. I mean, seriously, they say the only permanent things in this world are death and taxes. And now I find out they're right, even after death? I know that is a snide way to put it, but frak, it just seems like you can't get away from it all. I just find myself horrified by the idea that Paradise is as bureaucratic as Earth, albeit less of a mess. Just the thought makes me want to run screaming for the hills.


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My concern, of course, is that there is bureaucracy at all, no matter how perfect. I mean, seriously, they say the only permanent thing in this world is death and taxes. And now I find out they're right, even after death? I know that is a snide way to put it, but frak, it just seems like you can't get away from it all. I just find myself horrified by the idea that Paradise is as bureaucratic as Earth, albeit less of a mess. Just the thought makes me want to run screaming for the hills.


I am guessing the reason you don’t like bureaucracy is because you have bad experience with it. Bureaucracy is as good or bad as the people that run it. We are imperfect creatures and we are at the bottom of the ladder so to speak being animal in origin. We have an urge in us to be perfect and we want everything to be perfect. So I understand your frustration but you need to understand our nature.


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Hello Yaakov,

You just haven't read far enough yet;

32:5.7 There is in the mind of God a plan which embraces every creature of all his vast domains, and this plan is an eternal purpose of boundless opportunity, unlimited progress, and endless life. And the infinite treasures of such a matchless career are yours for the striving!

Yes, there's a plan, call it bureaucracy if that's how your mind works. Order, not chaos defines existence. Our heavenly Father would have it no other way.

Larry


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lwatkins wrote:
Hello Yaakov,

You just haven't read far enough yet;

32:5.7 There is in the mind of God a plan which embraces every creature of all his vast domains, and this plan is an eternal purpose of boundless opportunity, unlimited progress, and endless life. And the infinite treasures of such a matchless career are yours for the striving!

Yes, there's a plan, call it bureaucracy if that's how your mind works. Order, not chaos defines existence. Our heavenly Father would have it no other way.

Larry

Greetings, Larry:

It just sounds horrifying, when it is put that way. "...a matchless career...", "...a plan...", "...unlimited progress..."

I don't know, I had always pictured Paradise as Valhalla, or something like that. Not a place where I have to continue to study and work. I've done enough of that in life. My life has been enough pure Hell. If Jews believed in Hell (we don't, or at least, most of us don't), you could choose my existence between 2005 and 2010 as an example thereof. I won't go into detail, but lets just say it wasn't at all pleasant. Fortunately, things are much better now.

You are right though. I haven't read the book far enough to be able to make judgments yet. I'll wait for now. We'll see.


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Yaakov001 wrote:
lwatkins wrote:
Hello Yaakov,

You just haven't read far enough yet;

32:5.7 There is in the mind of God a plan which embraces every creature of all his vast domains, and this plan is an eternal purpose of boundless opportunity, unlimited progress, and endless life. And the infinite treasures of such a matchless career are yours for the striving!

Yes, there's a plan, call it bureaucracy if that's how your mind works. Order, not chaos defines existence. Our heavenly Father would have it no other way.

Larry

Greetings, Larry:

It just sounds horrifying, when it is put that way. "...a matchless career...", "...a plan...", "...unlimited progress..."

I don't know, I had always pictured Paradise as Valhalla, or something like that. Not a place where I have to continue to study and work. I've done enough of that in life. My life has been enough pure Hell. If Jews believed in Hell (we don't, or at least, most of us don't), you could choose my existence between 2005 and 2010 as an example thereof. I won't go into detail, but lets just say it wasn't at all pleasant. Fortunately, things are much better now.

You are right though. I haven't read the book far enough to be able to make judgments yet. I'll wait for now. We'll see.


The majority of the bureaucracy that we are subjected to on Urantia is designed to maintain the power of tyranny but this is the only life that will have tyranny darken the door of our homes. What a relief, right? 8)

And because we arrive in "Valhalla" exhausted, damaged, and wary - we will be given time to recover - to meet our loved ones again, to adjust to the new culture, to unpack what we brought of eternal value from this life. So no worries..


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I Must Speak wrote:
The majority of the bureaucracy that we are subjected to on Urantia is designed to maintain the power of tyranny but this is the only life that will have tyranny darken the door of our homes. What a relief, right? 8)

And because we arrive in "Valhalla" exhausted, damaged, and wary - we will be given time to recover - to meet our loved ones again, to adjust to the new culture, to unpack what we brought of eternal value from this life. So no worries..

Now I could accept that as axiomatic. That sounds a bit more like the Paradise I had envisioned. I shall admit that this makes a lot more theological sense than the basic definition of heaven always did. Heaven as some unidentifiable place where people just "go", if you will, where they sit around and listen to harp music on Cloud 9 always sounded immensely dull. Then again, that was always the Christian definition of it, which is what I got from non-Jewish friends. Jews always gave me the definition of it as Gan Eden, the idea that the Earth itself would become a Paradise, a perfect place of its own, where the lion would lie down with the lamb, and the nations would not again know war.

That, of course, is much more agreeable to me than the Christian idea. But the UB idea is something I have to consider, AFTER I have read it, and not before. Speaking of which, I need to go answer one more post here, and then get my morning coffee, and then get my reading done for the day! I look forward to your replies.


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you will read a lot more on the topic of government (human and divine) as you read further and i agree that the papers do portray a lot of bureaucratic organization and administration in the universe...but overall the picture portrayed is an effective government of minimal regulation and a citizenry living under the ideal of freedoms balanced by self-controls. here's a few snippets from much lengthier sections of the book on this topic:


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55:5.4 ..... Government is gradually disappearing. Self-control is slowly rendering laws of human enactment obsolete. The extent of civil government and statutory regulation, in an intermediate state of advancing civilization, is in inverse proportion to the morality and spirituality of the citizenship.


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71:3.6 A moral society should aim to preserve the self-respect of its citizenry and afford every normal individual adequate opportunity for self-realization. Such a plan of social achievement would yield a cultural society of the highest order. Social evolution should be encouraged by governmental supervision which exercises a minimum of regulative control. That state is best which co-ordinates most while governing least.


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45:7.3 The Melchizedek Sons conduct upward of thirty different educational centers on Jerusem. These training schools begin with the college of self-evaluation and end with the schools of Jerusem citizenship, wherein the Material Sons and Daughters join with the Melchizedeks and others in their supreme effort to qualify the mortal survivors for the assumption of the high responsibilities of representative government. The entire universe is organized and administered on the representative plan. Representative government is the divine ideal of self-government among nonperfect beings.


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70:12.1 The great struggle in the evolution of government has concerned the concentration of power. The universe administrators have learned from experience that the evolutionary peoples on the inhabited worlds are best regulated by the representative type of civil government when there is maintained proper balance of power between the well-co-ordinated executive, legislative, and judicial branches.

70:12.2 While primitive authority was based on strength, physical power, the ideal government is the representative system wherein leadership is based on ability,...


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70:12.8 Mankind’s struggle to perfect government on Urantia has to do with perfecting channels of administration, with adapting them to ever-changing current needs, with improving power distribution within government, and then with selecting such administrative leaders as are truly wise. While there is a divine and ideal form of government, such cannot be revealed but must be slowly and laboriously discovered by the men and women of each planet throughout the universes of time and space.



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That of course raises the question of why today there are so few genuine representative democracies in the world. Plenty of states are referred to as "Republics", but that means very little in practice. Just look at the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (DPRK, commonly known as North Korea) as a fine example of what I am talking about.


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Yaakov001 wrote:
That of course raises the question of why today there are so few genuine representative democracies in the world. Plenty of states are referred to as "Republics", but that means very little in practice. Just look at the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (DPRK, commonly known as North Korea) as a fine example of what I am talking about.


Was there a word for "democratic" in Korean that meant the same thing as "democratic" in English before the "isms" of the 20th century turned everything upside down?

Something was probably lost in translation....


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That of course raises the question of why today there are so few genuine representative democracies in the world. Plenty of states are referred to as "Republics", but that means very little in practice. Just look at the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (DPRK, commonly known as North Korea) as a fine example of what I am talking about.


well i just think that democracy is a relatively new experiment on this semi-civilized planet and we're still debating over what it should look like...it's still a work in progress and the UB admonishes us to "Go slowly! select carefully!" in paper 71 on the Development of the State.

If i look at the following criteria for representative leadership...

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71:2.14 10. Intelligent and trained representation. The survival of democracy is dependent on successful representative government; and that is conditioned upon the practice of electing to public offices only those individuals who are technically trained, intellectually competent, socially loyal, and morally fit. Only by such provisions can government of the people, by the people, and for the people be preserved.



I don't really see that in practice in the USA albeit it exists somewhat in theory and discussion...so we are still a long way from an ideal government in this country and even farther away from an ideal world government.


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The Afterlife.....by Brother Paul



After I died and the makeup had dried
I went back to my place
No moon that night but a heavenly light
Shone on my face

Still I thought it was odd, there was no sign of God
Just to usher me in
Then a voice from above, sugar coated with love said
"Let us begin"

You got to fill out a form first
And then you wait in the line
You got to fill out a form first
And then you wait in the line

Okay, a new kid in school, got to follow the rule
You got to learn the routine
Whoa, there's a girl over there with the sunshiny hair
Like a homecomin' queen

I said, "Hey, what you say? It's a glorious day
By the way how long you've been dead?"
Maybe you, maybe me, maybe baby makes three
But she just shook her head

You got to fill out a form first
And then you wait in the line
You got to fill out a form first
And then you wait in the line

Buddha and Moses and all the noses
From narrow to flat
Had to stand in the line, just to glimpse the divine
What you think about that?

Well, it seems like our fate to suffer
And wait for the knowledge we seek
It's all His design, no one cuts in the line
No one here likes to sneak

You got to fill out a form first
And then you wait in the line
You got to fill out a form first
And then you wait in the line

After you climb, up the ladder of time
The Lord God is near
Face to face, in the vastness of space
Your words disappear

And you feel like swimming in an ocean of love
And the current is strong
But all that remains when you try to explain
Is a fragment of song

Lord is it, bebop-a-lula or ooh-poppa-do?
Lord, bebop-a-lula or ooh-poppa-do
Bebop-a-lula


Songwriters
SIMON, PAUL

8)


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Makalu wrote:
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That of course raises the question of why today there are so few genuine representative democracies in the world. Plenty of states are referred to as "Republics", but that means very little in practice. Just look at the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (DPRK, commonly known as North Korea) as a fine example of what I am talking about.


well i just think that democracy is a relatively new experiment on this semi-civilized planet and we're still debating over what it should look like...it's still a work in progress and the UB admonishes us to "Go slowly! select carefully!" in paper 71 on the Development of the State.

If i look at the following criteria for representative leadership...

Quote:
71:2.14 10. Intelligent and trained representation. The survival of democracy is dependent on successful representative government; and that is conditioned upon the practice of electing to public offices only those individuals who are technically trained, intellectually competent, socially loyal, and morally fit. Only by such provisions can government of the people, by the people, and for the people be preserved.



I don't really see that in practice in the USA albeit it exists somewhat in theory and discussion...so we are still a long way from an ideal government in this country and even farther away from an ideal world government.


I don't believe that the goal was ever about establishing an "ideal world government".

But the bottom line is that humanity has never previously had the challenge, on the kitchen table in front of us everyday, of 7 billion diapers to change and mouths to feed. UB notes that over-crowding does not bring out the best in us.

There are long epochs of dark ages on this planet - consider the history in the UB of sending Melchizedek because the light of God's LOVE was being snuffed out. How much easier is it now to snuff out spiritual truth, beauty and goodness through the idolatry of technology and the enforcement of that idolatry through rank brutal tyranny!

To argue that "Greed is NOT good" is blasphemy.

It is FAIR to judge what is being done, not what is being said.


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I Must Speak wrote:
I don't believe that the goal was ever about establishing an "ideal world government".

But the bottom line is that humanity has never previously had the challenge, on the kitchen table in front of us everyday, of 7 billion diapers to change and mouths to feed. UB notes that over-crowding does not bring out the best in us.

There are long epochs of dark ages on this planet - consider the history in the UB of sending Melchizedek because the light of God's LOVE was being snuffed out. How much easier is it now to snuff out spiritual truth, beauty and goodness through the idolatry of technology and the enforcement of that idolatry through rank brutal tyranny!

To argue that "Greed is NOT good" is blasphemy.

It is FAIR to judge what is being done, not what is being said.

But let's face it. 7 billion is NOT too many for our planet. It is been proven that the natural resources of Earth could EASILY feed, clothe, and otherwise provide for every human presently on Earth, plus quite a few more. The problem is not LACK of resources, it is the unfair distribution thereof.


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