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This might seem like a simple or "easy" question so to speak, but it had really baffled me and set me off pace from my spiritual journey, and now, I stand lost in my path, I am in real need of help!

The way I am analyzing this as follows:

1st Q: Why do I want to be Good ?
2nd Q: Is this reason a selfish or selfless one? (Is there any form of personal gain/prophet/satisfaction from it!)

So, the question stands, How to be good unselfishly ? how to be completely self-forgetful! Why would I want to do that !?? to GAIN spiritual peace?! to show father to others ? Why would i do that !?

It's dark funny, but, in truth, I lost my true motive to deciding to actually DO good, instead of just simply existing...

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Mark,
9:5.7 Too often, all too often, you mar your minds by insincerity and sear them with unrighteousness;


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Hi Mark....difficult question indeed. I would offer that I began doing good by avoiding wrong to escape punishment. Then I evolved into doing good to earn points, good deed points, as a leger balance for when I did wrong. Eventually, I came to know that truth about love and energy, to have it is to receive it by transferring it or standing within its current, not as recipient but as giver to others. I couldn't truly hold it or own it or keep it unless I gave it outward. And I came to understand that it is not the act, good deeds, but it is the underlying motivation and the direct intent behind my actions that determined the karmic consequences/benefits of each act or the reception of the flow. This awareness of intention trumping act was transformative in my mind and life. Life and its choices are not a scorecard, it is a progressive education in reality....the source and destiny of love, truth, beauty, and goodness are the same and I can choose to live in that circuit or not.

This conscious process is described in the UB as shifting the seat of our identity....from the material nature and worldly demands on my time and energy and attention to that spiritual circuit of universe citizenship and coordination of motive and choice and act. During this intentional and transformative process the fruits of the spirit begin to appear....more happiness, peace, calm, contentedness, patience, tolerance, forbearance, harmony, appreciation, etc. And the mind poisons of anger, fear, resentment, anxiety, hopelessness, loneliness, isolation, and other bitter agents in my life seemed to dissipate (not disappear as if switched off - the temptations of ego remain but with less and less force). This comes from the growing response to the spirit gravity circuit and the declining influence of material attraction/distractions.

Good deeds are not good intentions. Beware those who pray loudly in public and give alms for all to see. And yet good intentions without wise action is just as futile. But good intentions which activate and lead to good efforts to express those motivations always bring some result, a real and true result. But let's be clear, even good intentions do not have the results expected or hoped for. So, there is still other levels of transcendence and transformation to aspire to. One is learning to make the best choice from many and this is far beyond making the right choice between a good and bad one. Second is the bread on the water or pay it forward concept - we must relinquish our need to predict, manage, control, or witness the outcome of our good intentions and actions....trusting God and his agents for results that may come in distant places and/or times. The result that should be the focus of all intentions and efforts is the personal experiential result of spiritization, alignment and attunement with the circuits of love and power and reality.

So, I would say yes that it is ok to begin and continue this process of maturation with the hope to GAIN something. Quite a conumdrum or paradox to be sure. But if eventually, you do gain a more harmonious and cheerful life that is more focused on values, meanings, relationships, discernment, and wisdom born of experience, do not be too surprised to the self/ego aspect fading and shrinking as a result. The Master said to do good for goodness sake and we will be richly rewarded. And when trustworthy of a few and smaller things, more will be added according to our ability.....and then more.....and then more. The reward is real and true enough, but the path to such enlightened living is neither short nor easy. But if we seek, we shall find.

The Master did also warn us that we either move forward in the Spirit or we fall away by out motives and choices. So the circuitry does not provide for stasis or status quo. Every day brings new intersections of choice. We choose worse or better or make the same ones over and over. And we are told that the fruits are delightful but do not eliminate or displace the vicissitudes and the errors and the consequences of errors to come. This is the very purpose of our life. A sequence of time units and choice units to progress by this experience.....or not. Our choice.

This is but my reflections based on my understanding of the teachings and as lived in my life as pilgrim, tadpole, and truthseeker.

Brad


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Mark,

Though I don't remember just when I asked this question I do remember vividly asking it. Brother Brad has posited a wonderful and sincere statement regarding it and actually, I believe, does "goodness" in presenting it.

My take from a slightly different angle is this. You said "It's dark funny, but, in truth, I lost my true motive to deciding to actually DO good, instead of just simply existing..." My first thought is that you may have simply outgrown your own personal definition of "Good" and your thought adjuster is seeking in you a more sincere, more highly valued, a more consistent with your own intellectual comprehension of the real meaning as it pertains to you personally and within your own soul, definition for you to live in relation to. God desires you to step up, as it were. This is a time of great growth opportunity for you, if my observation is correct.

"Good" is a term representing value and our eternal life is the endless quest to realize infinite value. This is the process of eternity. You are on the path. Praise God.

Jim


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I think doing good is at the foundation of a spirit led life. If we don't believe that spirit is as meaningful as the material world is then our choices fall between bad and good ones -- good chosen by a materialist would be good chosen for self-interest... I am good because I get better results. Lucifer is an example of a high spirit being choosing bad because he allowed his thinking and his mind to lead him astray; he was not watchful in his thinking and chose self-interest over good.

In a spirit led life there is not so much choosing necessary between bad and good, good comes naturally because the spirit is naturally good. Jesus went about doing good. God is truth, beauty, goodness. God is love. Love is patient and kind. We live in a loving and friendly universe. A spirit-led person does good without self-interest being the underlying motive.

Larry


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Here's my "karma" scale:

1. Doing the right thing for the right reason.

2. Doing the wrong thing but for the right reason.

3. Doing the right thing but for the wrong reason.

4. Doing the wrong thing and for the wrong reason.

But there is still a greater wisdom - doing the best thing of many options for the best reason. The top rung of the love scale and experience/wisdom scale is the superior WAY. I can only intellectualize it personally. Jesus is such an example in the UB of always being in front of decisions and actions and knowing the superior from the merely good.


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(150.4) 13:4.5 The determiner of the differential of spiritual presence exists in your own hearts and minds and consists in the manner of your own choosing, in the decisions of your minds, and in the determination of your own wills. This differential is inherent in the freewill reactions of intelligent personal beings, beings whom the Universal Father has ordained shall exercise this liberty of choosing. And the Deities are ever true to the ebb and flow of their spirits in meeting and satisfying the conditions and demands of this differential of creature choice, now bestowing more of their presence in response to a sincere desire for the same and again withdrawing themselves from the scene as their creatures decide adversely in the exercise of their divinely bestowed freedom of choice. And thus does the spirit of divinity become humbly obedient to the choosing of the creatures of the realms.


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kicoverz wrote:
This might seem like a simple or "easy" question so to speak, but it had really baffled me and set me off pace from my spiritual journey, and now, I stand lost in my path, I am in real need of help!

The way I am analyzing this as follows:

1st Q: Why do I want to be Good ?
2nd Q: Is this reason a selfish or selfless one? (Is there any form of personal gain/prophet/satisfaction from it!)

So, the question stands, How to be good unselfishly ? how to be completely self-forgetful! Why would I want to do that !?? to GAIN spiritual peace?! to show father to others ? Why would i do that !?

It's dark funny, but, in truth, I lost my true motive to deciding to actually DO good, instead of just simply existing...


Well I can think of a few motivating factors to do good one is the supreme value of personality. Another is love. Love is the greatest thing in the world. TUB even confirms this. Jesus was attempting to bring people into the kingdom of heaven, and this kingdom is ruled by Loving persons. Forget the material energy and spiritual energy aspect for a moment and think about how amazing personality is and what it really means. Personality transcends everything :), your personality even transcends the adjuster. TUB says that we cannot make ourselves love someone, we can only provide the favorable conditions. By spending time with people and trying to understand them you may find that you develop an affection for them, and that is a good start. See if you can take that affection further by cultivating a relationship with a loving God who is the friendliest personality :).

_________________
StrongcharactersRnotderivedfromnotdoingwrongbutratherfrom
actuallydoingrightUnselfishnesisthebadgeofhumangreatnes
Thehighestlevelsofselfrealizationareatainedbyworshipandservice
Thehapyandefectivepersonismotivatednotbyfearofwrongdoingbutby
loveofrightdoing


Last edited by boomshuka on Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:59 pm +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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kicoverz wrote:
... So, the question stands, How to be good unselfishly ? how to be completely self-forgetful! Why would I want to do that !?? to GAIN spiritual peace?! to show father to others ? Why would i do that !? ...
Hi Mark, I can’t find the quote but I’m sure TUB instructs us to love and do good to our brothers for the benefit of all, which includes you. So it may be fundamentally impossible to love and do good completely unselfishly..


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Hi All, :)

It felt enormously pleasant to hear from you all again; It really is nice to know that I have a family of believers who I can count on to lift depleted spirit.

While unfortunately your words didn't entirely quench deep thirst, they did provide such immense comfort and an even larger material for contemplation, and a much broadened field and point of views for viewing this matter.

My thoughts eventually took me to two places,
1- they lead me to paper 181, section 2. Farewell Personal Admonitions (I explain why below)
2- It lead me to ask, Why did Jesus decide to be GOOD?
How did the Complete self-forgetfulness come to be in him!? It was a result of which decision! and why did he take it!
and even deeper
Is GOD GOOD by nature or by choice ?!Is GOD LOVE by nature or by choice?! Did he DECIDE to be good ? WHY...?

* In section 2 of paper 181, it amazed me how Jesus gave specific instructions and DEDICATIONS for his apostles, he gave them "reasons to be" , something of VALUE to focus on achieving while passing here on this " bridge" of an existence..
Quote:
181:2.2 To John, Jesus said: [...] And you must change yet more. You should become the apostle of the new commandment which I have this night given you. Dedicate your life to teaching your brethren how to love one another, even as I have loved you.”

Yes Warren, Love IS beautiful..
Quote:
192:2.1 When they had finished breakfast, and while the others sat by the fire, Jesus beckoned to Peter and to John that they should come with him for a stroll on the beach. As they walked along, Jesus said to John, “John, do you love me?” And when John answered, “Yes, Master, with all my heart,” the Master said: “Then, John, give up your intolerance and learn to love men as I have loved you. Devote your life to proving that love is the greatest thing in the world. It is the love of God that impels men to seek salvation. Love is the ancestor of all spiritual goodness, the essence of the true and the beautiful.


What a beautiful reason to BE for...
lol
but then again...WHY would I want to be that? why would I want to spread joy...I don't want to spread evil, but why would I spread Joy, why would I really be doing that...what is the purpose of spreading goodness and joy throughout the entire universe, because it is beautiful? It is, It did put a smile on my face, It did lift my spirit and gave me indescribable peace and joy, NOW, at this moment , just after I read it.. but what does it all lead to?
what is this benefit that we all get (as Bart mentioned) ? Peace and Joy...and on to the cosmic realm(as Brad mentioned), with cosmic responsibilities, in a cosmic family, with cosmic ties and bonds...and the forging of a true cosmic character, until we transcend time, and finally meet out Father..

where we no longer get to ask " then what happens " because time doesn't exist, there would be no " next" or " then" or "Before" ..it is the realm of " IS" , would I be fulfilled then..would the "WHY" sequence stop then... can my "dedication" or "reason of being" be , to find out " why" ..."Love" - is the greatest thing in the world..

:-s
I just realized :cry:
That is a selfish motivation...it would be to quench my thirst. [Sigh..]

I guess this one falls under " doing the right thing for the wrong reason" category, eh Brad ? :)
HAHA, what an interesting puzzle..
just what is this " Right thing, for the right reason" ..this is exactly my question...what is the ultimate " Right Reason" , why did GOD or Jesus, chose "the Right thing" , what was "the Right Reason" behind that choice...
I stand with no answer..

_________________
Mark,
9:5.7 Too often, all too often, you mar your minds by insincerity and sear them with unrighteousness;


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kicoverz wrote:
… but then again...WHY would I want to be that? why would I want to spread joy...I don't want to spread evil, but why would I spread Joy, why would I really be doing that...what is the purpose of spreading goodness and joy throughout the entire universe, because it is beautiful? It is, It did put a smile on my face, It did lift my spirit and gave me indescribable peace and joy, NOW, at this moment , just after I read it.. but what does it all lead to?
what is this benefit that we all get (as Bart mentioned) ? Peace and Joy...and on to the cosmic realm(as Brad mentioned), with cosmic responsibilities, in a cosmic family, with cosmic ties and bonds...and the forging of a true cosmic character, until we transcend time, and finally meet out Father..

where we no longer get to ask " then what happens " because time doesn't exist, there would be no " next" or " then" or "Before" ..it is the realm of " IS" , would I be fulfilled then..would the "WHY" sequence stop then... can my "dedication" or "reason of being" be , to find out " why" ..."Love" - is the greatest thing in the world.. …
Hi mark, It seems you’re just suffering from a (minor) "faith problem".. ;)


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If we are not confused, we are not paying attention and not thinking or wondering or transforming or transcending. Certainty is the handmaiden of prejudice and bride of pride.

(1098.5) 100:5.2 The progression of religious growth leads from stagnation through conflict to co-ordination, from insecurity to undoubting faith, from confusion of cosmic consciousness to unification of personality, from the temporal objective to the eternal, from the bondage of fear to the liberty of divine sonship.

(1206.3) 110:3.5 Confusion, being puzzled, even sometimes discouraged and distracted, does not necessarily signify resistance to the leadings of the indwelling Adjuster. Such attitudes may sometimes connote lack of active co-operation with the divine Monitor and may, therefore, somewhat delay spiritual progress, but such intellectual emotional difficulties do not in the least interfere with the certain survival of the God-knowing soul. Ignorance alone can never prevent survival; neither can confusional doubts nor fearful uncertainty. Only conscious resistance to the Adjuster’s leading can prevent the survival of the evolving immortal soul.

(1206.4) 110:3.6 You must not regard co-operation with your Adjuster as a particularly conscious process, for it is not; but your motives and your decisions, your faithful determinations and your supreme desires, do constitute real and effective co-operation. You can consciously augment Adjuster harmony by:


(1206.5) 110:3.7 1. Choosing to respond to divine leading; sincerely basing the human life on the highest consciousness of truth, beauty, and goodness, and then co-ordinating these qualities of divinity through wisdom, worship, faith, and love.

(1206.6) 110:3.8 2. Loving God and desiring to be like him — genuine recognition of the divine fatherhood and loving worship of the heavenly Parent.

(1206.7) 110:3.9 3. Loving man and sincerely desiring to serve him — wholehearted recognition of the brotherhood of man coupled with an intelligent and wise affection for each of your fellow mortals.

(1206.8) 110:3.10 4. Joyful acceptance of cosmic citizenship — honest recognition of your progressive obligations to the Supreme Being, awareness of the interdependence of evolutionary man and evolving Deity. This is the birth of cosmic morality and the dawning realization of universal duty.

(1140.4) 103:8.4 If you truly believe in God — by faith know him and love him — do not permit the reality of such an experience to be in any way lessened or detracted from by the doubting insinuations of science, the caviling of logic, the postulates of philosophy, or the clever suggestions of well-meaning souls who would create a religion without God.

(1140.5) 103:8.5 The certainty of the God-knowing religionist should not be disturbed by the uncertainty of the doubting materialist; rather should the uncertainty of the unbeliever be mightily challenged by the profound faith and unshakable certainty of the experiential believer.



I can hear you in the Melchizidek schools Mark: "So why did God choose love and goodness?" And the teacher asks back: "You mean choose as in a moment of time?" And down the rabbit hole we go, whole class and all! The answer is it is God's nature...but from whence came this nature and not another. And there we go again....from whence will not fit in either infinity nor eternity. This then is perhaps the greatest of all koans....a riddle without answer but pondering upon it sufficiently brings satori and an understanding of our non-understanding! Or at least its acceptance. We are taught that nothing exists outside of love and the divine nature....all error and sin is gone as soon as it happens, it is a nonevent without meaning or effect in the eternities without time.

8)


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Kicoverz try spending some time around little children. We enter the kingdom of heaven by becoming child-like. They can teach us a lot.

In the beginning there was the I AM, the I AM distributed all of himself that he could so that he could experience true relationship. So it is literally true that to share is to be god-like "As above so below". You are searching for value and meaning, this is the search that will never stop my friend. It will go on for all eternity, its a journey. The Father holds all infinite reality at bay so that you can exit in time and space. Consider also that you have a Mother as well as a Father who are searching for you. How romantic is that! Everything in the universe is built up so romantically, lol you just got to get in touch with your soft side maybe? Hahah don't be afraid to have affections for men, women, young and old.

The female perspective can help as well, us males need it.

_________________
StrongcharactersRnotderivedfromnotdoingwrongbutratherfrom
actuallydoingrightUnselfishnesisthebadgeofhumangreatnes
Thehighestlevelsofselfrealizationareatainedbyworshipandservice
Thehapyandefectivepersonismotivatednotbyfearofwrongdoingbutby
loveofrightdoing


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Bart wrote:
Hi mark, It seems you’re just suffering from a (minor) "faith problem".. ;)


HAHA
Nice One Bart!
Indeed..
It all boils down to faith , doesn't it...
And I choose to believe ...and to have faith in the power of goodness..:)

fanofvan wrote:
from whence will not fit in either infinity nor eternity. This then is perhaps the greatest of all koans....a riddle without answer but pondering upon it sufficiently brings satori and an understanding of our non-understanding! Or at least its acceptance. We are taught that nothing exists outside of love and the divine nature....all error and sin is gone as soon as it happens, it is a nonevent without meaning or effect in the eternities without time.

Brad, I have to say, If feels like you really understood where I am at exactly, and knew exactly what to say, those quotes are an excellent reminder to how far I am from real understanding, and your personal counsel was of great comfort and wisdom for my confused mind and stagnant soul :), baby steps first, eh?! :wink:
God Bless you Brother,

LOL boom,funny you should say that, It was because I started thinking like children that I re-visited the whole "Why sequence" with my faith :biggrin:
This whole thing started after watching a show where the person was complaining how his daughter kept asking him constant "WHY(s)" to everything, which then lead me to imagining my self in a similar situation and how I would react to such when it happened :biggrin: and , obviously, I Lost :razz:
Children can be the best of teachers indeed :)

but thanks to all of you, I really ferl better, and your words of wisdom has effected real change and growth to my soul.
sincerely... Thank you, and God Bless O:)

_________________
Mark,
9:5.7 Too often, all too often, you mar your minds by insincerity and sear them with unrighteousness;


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Lol yea kicoverz, I am not sure that was quite where I was going with that. To have a innocent child-like viewpoint was where I was headed there. Not a childish viewpoint, like a impatient kid who wants answers right away lol.

_________________
StrongcharactersRnotderivedfromnotdoingwrongbutratherfrom
actuallydoingrightUnselfishnesisthebadgeofhumangreatnes
Thehighestlevelsofselfrealizationareatainedbyworshipandservice
Thehapyandefectivepersonismotivatednotbyfearofwrongdoingbutby
loveofrightdoing


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A loyal and sincere tadpole should love being tadpole first!! All frogs come forth by such unconscious growth and experience AS tadpole. We "mere" mortals/tadpoles have the greatest adventure in all the universes of all creation before us. Choosing the right act comes only from the experiences over time of discerning the reality before us in the moment but right motives can be chosen right now and such a choice immediately changes behavior and act choices. Not to the best or wisest choice just yet. That takes more time and more practice and more error. That's ok. It ain't a race and we will never be done with learning to discern the better choice to ultimately know the best choice among many good choices.

The Jesus Way on the karma scale: Doing the best thing for the best reason. The innocent and wise choice. Beyond my tadpole credentials....way beyond. But we move that direction by doing the right thing for the right reason and even by doing the wrong thing for the right reason. I like to use an analogy: we tadpoles make lemons, the fruits of right motive but with some error of tactic and strategy...and yet the celestials and spirit circuits add the sugar of love and the water of wisdom, stir awhile and serve divine lemonade. We do not make lemonade but the celestials can't make lemonade without our mortal lemons either. This is a team effort. We must only trust the elders on our team to use our best and sincere efforts that bring resonance to the universe and the Supreme.

I think Jesus shows us that self forgetting is the source of divine love...we have ego for many good reasons but we must also transcend it and learn to leave it behind. It's not about us. Jesus said it's not about Him. It's always about others first and always. The reality current beckons and carries us into all truth....eventually....if we but swim along, loyally and sincerely as God's tadpoles.

So glad you share here with us Mark. Yours is not an uncommon quandary. Just shows thinking and progress. Thank you.

Brad


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