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(Matthew 18:17) If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the congregation; and if they refuse to listen even to the congregation, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Probably the only official text in the bible that gives merit to sectarianism/cults since according to the urantia book Jesus did actually say it in so many words:

(159:1.3) If your brother sins against you, go to him and with tact and patience show him his fault. And do all this between you and him alone. If he will listen to you, then have you won your brother. But if your brother will not hear you, if he persists in the error of his way, go again to him, taking with you one or two mutual friends that you may thus have two or even three witnesses to confirm your testimony and establish the fact that you have dealt justly and mercifully with your offending brother. Now if he refuses to hear your brethren, you may tell the whole story to the congregation, and then, if he refuses to hear the brotherhood, let them take such action as they deem wise; let such an unruly member become an outcast from the kingdom.


This seems to go against the general message of the urantia book (all are God's children), not to mention the very nature of Jesus who tried to break up stereotypes and judgements against others (even to the point of socialising with the so called sinners including tax collectors/pagans). Why would Jesus make this statement when it encourages cultism? The whole "God's people" delusion? To make it look like the kingdom involves being associated with a physical group here on earth and not purely a matter of the heart?

I speak from personal experience here, trying to reason with Christians (specifically Jehovah's Witnesses)...but it really doesn't help when you have words directly from the horses mouth seemingly condoning separation of oneself in society (breeding elitist views). Although a true follower of Jesus would not judge, the bible, and this text of the urantia book clearly make it known that "God's people" have physical congregations that are separate from the "world".

It would be great to here feedback, especially from those who've had this kind of background (breaking free from a high control group that used Jesus to justify their control/isolation from society)...


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My take goes like this..

If we read the entire paragraph, Jesus is merely displaying the very most tactful and graceful way of assisting someone in seeing the error of their ways.

Notice the steps involved.
First you and them Alone!
Then you, them, and a witness or two.
Then you, them, the witnesses, and then the group also.

Notice also this part of the sentence: "establish the fact that you have dealt justly and mercifully with your offending brother" ....this is done in private with a witness or two.

These steps are the gentle and humble way of helping someone see their error!

It does not get any kinder/gentler!
It does not get any more loving and sympathetic.


Later on in the paragraph we notice that it has been established that the wrong doer has become in fact---"an unruly member"


So it is somewhat of an art to notice that the Jesus way is not only loving in every aspect....it is Sublime, Divine!

What do you think BrotherP ?


~Paul


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A most interesting topic and one that confounds me still in some ways. I think the example given has been illuminated well by Paul and goes to the teachings on judgment and justice....group efforts. I wonder when excommunication is truly a group thing and not a leadership "judgment"? Is the "offender" approached in such a way as taught? Is the violation real or is it a creed or dogma or ceremony violation? Does the congregation hear and weigh and speak? Or is there accusation, indictment, and expulsion? The form is important when comparing, no?

But the issue is greater in text and presents a paradox of sorts. There is the withholding of false sympathies for those trapped or punished by their own choices in error/evil. There is the pearls before swine and not engaging with the beggar on the way to or from Rome. According to text, all the many times Jesus spoke of the "kingdom", he was describing one of 5:

1. The kingdom of believers.
2. The kingdom within mind and soul.
3. The celestial kingdom of the cosmos.
4. The next epochal phase.
5. The era of L&L to come.

There seems to be no mention of the kingdom of unbelievers or not yet believers. Jesus taught many lessons on how believers should act and treat one another distinct from.......who and what?

We are to discern and to know the superior from the inferior in our daily walk and ministries of love. But we are not to judge. Discernment without judgment - it's a quandary to me as well. Perplexing. But not a teaching of isolation IMO.


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Jesus didn't bestow his affection and friendship upon everyone. He did say "love your enemies" but love comes in many forms. The Father loves all, equally, the sinner as well as the saint. That's Fatherly deity love. Human beings are not deity and we can't love as deity does, especially here on a material world. We love that which most closely exemplifies aspirations or which most closely complements desires and our character. We can show love to our enemies by not wishing them ill-will or by not treating them unkindly... by leaving them alone or by showing mercy... but we don't have to like them. Jesus certainly didn't say "like everyone."

We're expected to make choices in who we associate with, to choose to be around those with good character and to not associate with those with bad character. Choices and judgment are partly what make us human. A godly person doesn't accept everything without judgment. Sound judgment is what makes a person godly. There is good and evil in this world and to a godly person they're not equally meaningful, he separates the sheep from the goats. Godly people judge, they just judge rightly and with compassion.

Larry


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Thanks for the quick responses!

What troubles me is that Jesus seemed to quite clearly have establish a proactive brotherhood (which later became very institutionalised, heiraracle and somewhat distorted). However, the urantia movement appears to be very wishy washy? Full of idealism, chat and discussion, but no strong leadership; not a solid movement with a sense of duty and commitment. Forgive me if that sounds harsh and insulting, I am very new to this...literally 9 months new! See, when I accidently discovered the urantia book, it completely changed my life (have been ousted from a high control group - the Jehovah's Witnesses - including my own family). To me, truth is something you should be willing to die for, and this is what resulted in the initial spread of Jesus' teachings. Having a Jehovah's Witness background, I'm used to taking religion to the people on their very doorstep! This is a similar attitude to Jesus' apostles; they went everywhere to preach the good news as directed by Jesus (went to the people wherever they were). Thankfully, we live in a more civilised society with the birth of "freedom of speech" so don't get killed (usually), however, I still feel that as a movement that's been around for 100 years(?), the adherents seem to be a bit mediocre to me ("what will be will be" attitude, "God will fix it").

Notice here:

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(159:1.3) While you cannot pretend to sit in judgment on the souls of your fellows, and while you may not forgive sins or otherwise presume to usurp the prerogatives of the supervisors of the heavenly hosts, at the same time, it has been committed to your hands that you should maintain temporal order in the kingdom on earth. While you may not meddle with the divine decrees concerning eternal life, you shall determine the issues of conduct as they concern the temporal welfare of the brotherhood on earth. And so, in all these matters connected with the discipline of the brotherhood, whatsoever you shall decree on earth, shall be recognized in heaven. Although you cannot determine the eternal fate of the individual, you may legislate regarding the conduct of the group, for, where two or three of you agree concerning any of these things and ask of me, it shall be done for you if your petition is not inconsistent with the will of my Father in heaven. And all this is ever true, for, where two or three believers are gathered together, there am I in the midst of them.”


The text above seem to clearly indicate that Jesus tried to establish gradual change, but very similar to what the Jews were used to - group worship with clear guidelines and organisation. The leadership wasn't supposed to be a hierarchy (group censorship), but it certainly indicates some form of "keeping the congregation clean". This is definitely organisation in my mind. It seems there is no clear direction in the urantia movement, many scattered followers with nothing clear cut to associate with (as humans we have a basic need for symbolism, which is why Jesus allowed for this). The initial "leadership" of the urantia movement seem to pussy foot around?

While we shouldn't fall prey to making someone forgo their free will (dogmatism/cultism etc), it seems that Jesus clearly did want some kind of solid, active institution. I don't doubt the authenticity of the urantia book, but it does seem a bit discouraging how slow it seems to have been considering Jesus favoured a more aggressive approach to spreading his teachings?

Sorry for going off on a tangent there, but still somewhat related to the discussion :)


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BrotherP wrote:
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The text above seem to clearly indicate that Jesus tried to establish gradual change, but very similar to what the Jews were used to - group worship with clear guidelines and organisation. The leadership wasn't supposed to be a hierarchy (group censorship), but it certainly indicates some form of "keeping the congregation clean". This is definitely organisation in my mind. It seems there is no clear direction in the urantia movement, many scattered followers with nothing clear cut to associate with (as humans we have a basic need for symbolism, which is why Jesus allowed for this). The initial "leadership" of the urantia movement seem to pussy foot around?

While we shouldn't fall prey to making someone forgo their free will (dogmatism/cultism etc), it seems that Jesus clearly did want some kind of solid, active institution. I don't doubt the authenticity of the urantia book, but it does seem a bit discouraging how slow it seems to have been considering Jesus favoured a more aggressive approach to spreading his teachings?


IMO, although Jesus did not intend to establish a physical group of "God's people", or a cult, he anticipated the institutionalizing of the brotherhood, he foresaw the organizing of a socialized shadow of the spiritual brotherhood of men, that is why he taught those lessons to the early members of the kingdom. Similarly, at this time, I don't think there is a need to have some kind of physical organization of Urantia book believers to spread the gospel of Jesus. I understand the human need for symbolism and associations, but unity in spirit which believers should have does not mean the need for the creation of institutions for group worship and for spreading of the teaching. Group efforts might be laudable, IMO but it is not a must.


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BrotherP, welcome to The Urantia Book -- having come from the Jehovah's Witnesses you've taken a huge step and made a big spiritual commitment... not many are able to show that much fortitude. The JWs are to be commended in my opinion -- like Mormons they're willing to meet the public on its own terms and try to give belief to unbelievers and that's a difficult calling. However, as a religion, the JWs are highly dogmatic and extremely strict with their beliefs without leeway or interpretation -- no personal relationship with truth outside of what the church allows. So it's both good and bad -- it offers a solid foundation in scripture while it also forbids spiritual growth outside of its own teachings. Many people are searching for that kind of authoritarian and traditional teaching though.

The criticism of the "Urantia Movement" being slow and ineffective is common. But there's a difference between being a student of TUB and being the member of an organized religion. TUB is a personal revelation, not a revelation to a group. It's the individual that's to be transformed, not a group, so as individuals we come together and attempt to function as organizations, but as organizations we're not particularly effective, as is seen in the lack of building any kind of religious structure in the nearly 100 years of this revelation. The Mormons had no such problem because their goals were different. There's no reason for Urantians to try to create a new religion -- there are already plenty of religions on the globe. The Urantia teachings can help refocus these existing religions, but it's a slow process.

Best wishes,
Larry


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(159:1.3) While you cannot pretend to sit in judgment on the souls of your fellows, and while you may not forgive sins or otherwise presume to usurp the prerogatives of the supervisors of the heavenly hosts, at the same time, it has been committed to your hands that you should maintain temporal order in the kingdom on earth. While you may not meddle with the divine decrees concerning eternal life, you shall determine the issues of conduct as they concern the temporal welfare of the brotherhood on earth. And so, in all these matters connected with the discipline of the brotherhood, whatsoever you shall decree on earth, shall be recognized in heaven. Although you cannot determine the eternal fate of the individual, you may legislate regarding the conduct of the group, for, where two or three of you agree concerning any of these things and ask of me, it shall be done for you if your petition is not inconsistent with the will of my Father in heaven. And all this is ever true, for, where two or three believers are gathered together, there am I in the midst of them.”


This isn't just a message to his followers to form some cult it is a message to all human beings. He is talking about basic government. He is basically saying that there is nothing wrong with human government and it serves a valuable purpose. One of the most important functions that government provides is providing legislation regarding conduct in groups. "you may legislate regarding the conduct of the group". Consider this statement "The Most Highs rule in the kingdom of men". The most Highs are literally involved in the leadership of our planet in some way shape or form. Obviously they are not having conversations with our leaders but they are involved in some mysterious way our planetary government. Remember those speeches with Daniel in the old testament? There may be some truth in those.

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4 - (43:3.4) Down through the ages there has been great confusion on Urantia regarding the various universe rulers. Many later teachers confused their vague and indefinite tribal deities with the Most High Fathers. Still later, the Hebrews merged all of these celestial rulers into a composite Deity. One teacher understood that the Most Highs were not the Supreme Rulers, for he said, "He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty." In the Urantia records it is very difficult at times to know exactly who is referred to by the term "Most High." But Daniel fully understood these matters. He said, "The Most High rules in the kingdom of men and gives it to whomsoever he will."

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BrotherP, Welcome !

Remember what the master said about trying to interpret his teaching too far !? I think we should take it very simple, directly, without resorting to in-depth interpretation, and , if one finds himself inclined to do so, let him do so with himself, in his closet.

I personally agree with Boom and Brother paul directly.

Brother Paul indicated how the master exhorted all the means to deal mercifully and lovingly with the offender, but, if there was no room for the receptivity of love and mercy in the offenders heart (for whatever reason - the judges are the ancients of days - not us, not even the son of Man) then , as brother boom indicated , for the benefit of the group, such "Unruly" member should be dealt with(by the authority - the group - the government), in most cases placed in quarantine, so he may not be a negative influence to those around him (as brother Larry alluded to), some people are simply ( not - positive ) , be it because of their own choosing or because of the unfortunate circumstances of this existence, they are just that, and so, if they do become "Swine" , then , we must not cast our pearls in front of them , ( not because we are heartless and we don't care ) , but , as the master explained to Ganid once, it is simply because there is no room in his heart for the receptivity of such mercy and love,it would make no change, no effect, then why waste the effort and spiritual energy ?

And another very direct example, suppose there is a deranged serial killer on the loose, If we are to interpret Jesus' message as you are suggesting ( complete mercy and love and understanding ), then we should let that serial killer go about in his killing spree without interjecting because we are merciful and loving and forgiving , no ?!

Well I guess you get my point now! The GOVERNMENT , is essential, very essential, it is what Organizes our social environment so as to create a better living condition where we can conduct our spiritual lives easier , without the unnecessary agitation from without. That is one example of a million, I hope you got my point, and that it helps.

God Bless :)

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9:5.7 Too often, all too often, you mar your minds by insincerity and sear them with unrighteousness;


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Thank you all again for the warm welcome and thoughtful posts!

I'm still a little confused, maybe it's something that'll come to me in time. Jesus talking about mankind's government (in general) would make sense, but it doesn't look like that was his meaning according to the context. For example, Jesus mentions "brothers", "brotherhood", "believers" etc (Paper 159). Not only that but doesn't the urantia book promote a type of government where it's up to the intelligent/wise etc to govern the masses? i.e. that public opinion/government isn't always right?


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BrotherP wrote:
Thank you all again for the warm welcome and thoughtful posts!

I'm still a little confused, maybe it's something that'll come to me in time. Jesus talking about mankind's government (in general) would make sense, but it doesn't look like that was his meaning according to the context. For example, Jesus mentions "brothers", "brotherhood", "believers" etc (Paper 159). Not only that but doesn't the urantia book promote a type of government where it's up to the intelligent/wise etc to govern the masses? i.e. that public opinion/government isn't always right?


Remember the Urmia lectures?
The some of the revelators wanted to disclose the context of the lectures given by Jesus, but , as they also tell us, they deemed it unwise because in there, the Master spoke not only in matters of Spirituality, but also in politics, economics, sociology, etc..

And basically they explain that they can't disclose them because what Jesus said in that time about such topics might not apply to another generation or time era, the TUB is not only for this generation, it can probably last another 2000 years before another Epochal Revelation takes place.

They also allude to somewhere else in the book that when the Apostles and the Disciples of John the Baptist requested Jesus' help in dealing with earthly matters, he wouldn't interfere, his revelation was solely personal.

They even say at another time that if the master was to come now to this generation he would disappoint a great number of people because he wouldn't take sides and he wouldn't offer advise regarding government and earthly rules.

References Below:

Quote:
134:3.8 [When we, the midwayers, first prepared the summary of Jesus’ teachings at Urmia, there arose a disagreement between the seraphim of the churches and the seraphim of progress as to the wisdom of including these teachings in the Urantia Revelation. Conditions of the twentieth century, prevailing in both religion and human governments, are so different from those prevailing in Jesus’ day that it was indeed difficult to adapt the Master’s teachings at Urmia to the problems of the kingdom of God and the kingdoms of men as these world functions are existent in the twentieth century. We were never able to formulate a statement of the Master’s teachings which was acceptable to both groups of these seraphim of planetary government. Finally, the Melchizedek chairman of the revelatory commission appointed a commission of three of our number to prepare our view of the Master’s Urmia teachings as adapted to twentieth-century religious and political conditions on Urantia. Accordingly, we three secondary midwayers completed such an adaptation of Jesus’ teachings, restating his pronouncements as we would apply them to present-day world conditions, and we now present these statements as they stand after having been edited by the Melchizedek chairman of the revelatory commission.]

143:3.1 About this time a state of great nervous and emotional tension developed among the apostles and their immediate disciple associates. They had hardly become accustomed to living and working together. They were experiencing increasing difficulties in maintaining harmonious relations with John’s disciples. The contact with the gentiles and the Samaritans was a great trial to these Jews. And besides all this, the recent utterances of Jesus had augmented their disturbed state of mind. Andrew was almost beside himself; he did not know what next to do, and so he went to the Master with his problems and perplexities. When Jesus had listened to the apostolic chief relate his troubles, he said: “Andrew, you cannot talk men out of their perplexities when they reach such a stage of involvement, and when so many persons with strong feelings are concerned. I cannot do what you ask of me — I will not participate in these personal social difficulties — but I will join you in the enjoyment of a three-day period of rest and relaxation. Go to your brethren and announce that all of you are to go with me up on Mount Sartaba, where I desire to rest for a day or two



140:8.17 Jesus frequently warned his listeners against covetousness, declaring that “a man’s happiness consists not in the abundance of his material possessions.” He constantly reiterated, “What shall it profit a man if he gain the whole world and lose his own soul?” He made no direct attack on the possession of property, but he did insist that it is eternally essential that spiritual values come first. In his later teachings he sought to correct many erroneous Urantia views of life by narrating numerous parables which he presented in the course of his public ministry. Jesus never intended to formulate economic theories; he well knew that each age must evolve its own remedies for existing troubles. And if Jesus were on earth today, living his life in the flesh, he would be a great disappointment to the majority of good men and women for the simple reason that he would not take sides in present-day political, social, or economic disputes. He would remain grandly aloof while teaching you how to perfect your inner spiritual life so as to render you manyfold more competent to attack the solution of your purely human problems.

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9:5.7 Too often, all too often, you mar your minds by insincerity and sear them with unrighteousness;


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BrotherP wrote:
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I'm still a little confused, maybe it's something that'll come to me in time. Jesus talking about mankind's government (in general) would make sense, but it doesn't look like that was his meaning according to the context. For example, Jesus mentions "brothers", "brotherhood", "believers" etc (Paper 159). Not only that but doesn't the urantia book promote a type of government where it's up to the intelligent/wise etc to govern the masses? i.e. that public opinion/government isn't always right?


BrotherP,

I think you interpreted the passage right. That is also my interpretation, that he was talking about an organization like what became the "church" or the brotherhood of believers. But as I explained earlier, the Master might not have intended the establishment of a religious institution but he foresaw its subsequent establishment by his followers, so he taught those guidelines about settling disagreements and forgiveness among its members.


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33:4.3.To the Roman centurion he said: "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's and unto God the things which are God's. The sincere service of God and the loyal service of Caesar do not conflict unless Caesar should presume to arrogate to himself that homage which alone can be claimed by Deity. Loyalty to God, if you should come to know him, would render you all the more loyal and faithful in your devotion to a worthy emperor."


He is saying there is nothing wrong with the government. "Render unto Caesar the thing which are Caesar's". "Would render you all the more loyal and faithful in your devotion to a worthy emperor." He seems to be giving a ringing endorsement to regular government here. He was not anti government.



Quote:
I'm still a little confused, maybe it's something that'll come to me in time. Jesus talking about mankind's government (in general) would make sense, but it doesn't look like that was his meaning according to the context. For example, Jesus mentions "brothers", "brotherhood", "believers" etc (Paper 159). Not only that but doesn't the urantia book promote a type of government where it's up to the intelligent/wise etc to govern the masses? i.e. that public opinion/government isn't always right?


Something to consider is that Jesus referred to all mankind as the children of god and all men as your brother. So there is that.

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kicoverz - thanks for quoting that, it's good to have reminders like that and explains a few things. Actually it explains the frustration for no clear directions as regards governing!

YSMAEL - as you see it in the bible it really doesn't look open to interpretation (the church and it's authority was formed due to scriptures based on this...vague recollections of what Jesus said). I find it annoying though because it's religions like my previous one (JW) that use these types of scriptures to justify expulsion and extreme shunning based on the silliest of things (e.g. smoking, taking a blood transfusion, celebrating Christmas, getting a tattoo, disagreeing with their leaders etc). It's hard to reason with extreme religionists when they use these types of scripture to justify authority of the church.

boomshuka - yeah realising that Jesus made no clear distinction between mankind and his immediate followers was a turning point for me, especially considering that JW's go that step further in saying that today only JWs are Christ's brothers! It's a sad reality of religion today, history repeating itself. Jesus' illustration of the good samaritan still applies.


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Hey Brother no special clubs here haha. A devout U.B reader is my brother just as the Africa bushmen is :)

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