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I am pretty sure Van that God is perfect and does not change or grow. (3.1.2) It is literally true that God is all and in all. But even that is not all of God.

(2.2.2) He inhabits the present moment with all his absolute majesty and eternal greatness. “The Father has life in himself, and this life is eternal life.” Throughout the eternal ages it has been the Father who “gives to all life.” There is infinite perfection in the divine integrity. “I am the Lord; I change not.”

(2.2.2) Thus are the plans and purposes of the First Source and Center like himself: eternal, perfect, and forever changeless.

36.1) 2:2.3 The reactions of a changeless God, in the execution of his eternal purpose, may seem to vary in accordance with the changing attitude and the shifting minds of his created intelligences; that is, they may apparently and superficially vary; but underneath the surface and beneath all outward manifestations, there is still present the changeless purpose, the everlasting plan, of the eternal God.

36.4) 2:2.6 God is eternally and infinitely perfect,...

(34.4) 2:1.5 No thing is new to God, and no cosmic event ever comes as a surprise; he inhabits the circle of eternity. He is without beginning or end of days. To God there is no past, present, or future; all time is present at any given moment. He is the great and only I AM.

(36.3) 2:2.5 God’s primal perfection consists not in an assumed righteousness but rather in the inherent perfection of the goodness of his divine nature. He is final, complete, and perfect.

(49.4) 3:3.5 Omnipotence does not imply the power to do the nondoable, the ungodlike act. Neither does omniscience imply the knowing of the unknowable. But such statements can hardly be made comprehensible to the finite mind. The creature can hardly understand the range and limitations of the will of the Creator.

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Boom - I too am certain of God's completeness and perfection. I merely communicate my inability to understand His completeness, which does include a participatory role in the perfecting of that which is not complete nor yet perfect. Of all the new things I've learned about Him from TUB, The Supreme was one of my most thrilling and humbling discoveries. For what we do and choose is important to God, not just because we are His beloved children, but because He shares in that experience of doing right for right's sake, and shares in our discovery of truth, beauty, and goodness. My biblical god was perfect, complete, unchangeable in-total. Eternity was a stasis of perfection rather than an eternal process and adventure - in which God is more than creator of perfection, He is the creator and participant in PERFECTING. Apologies for my lack of education and word skills which clearly cannot communicate that which my mind conceives and which, itself, is lacking the ability to put reality into context. Those of us who reside in time and space simply cannot fathom those and that who/which are not within that space/time limitation. Perhaps time does not begin or end WHEN but WHERE instead? For eternity does not reside within time but the other way around. Perhaps rich is looking for the end of time within the time stream when he should be looking for the location of the end of the temporal - and only us lowly ascenders can transcend this bridge from the temporal to the eternal.

On this basis, I too wonder if God knows the eternal result of the temporal potential or if He pre-knows each ascender's outcome too. And I am very confused and uncertain as to this difference. To know the ultimate result of free will is not to know the choices each ascender faces and makes and would seem to dimminish His "joy" for our triumphs or any desire to "participate" in that process of perfecting. But that which confuses ME has far greater content than that which does not. But I know I am thrilled to have Him within my experience.


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As-Above-So-Below wrote:
Bart wrote:
Well, that’s just the way our brains work.. :)
I'm sorry but, are you sure that that's the way the mind works? If it is, what would be the need for the following question?
Bart wrote:
Okay, but (again) how does this relate to TUB?
I believe the better question would be: How does it not relate to TUB?
Beauty and truth are in the eye of the beholder but, is there something in comprehending the cosmic mind?
You wrote: "... When I see or hear specific information, I immediately access similar events or knowledge that may correlate with previous experienced memories. ..."

So, yes, I really think that’s a fundamental aspect of the way our material brain/mind works. It’s called memory.

And you wrote: "... Now, since God actually has all possible experiences throughout eternity or creates time in relation to multiple realities, the statement in question, is irrelevant in God’s point of view because it already happened or will occur based on one’s perception of their reality. So everything can change even what we think is fact or truth."

In my mind, this doesn’t provide "immediate access to similar knowledge" in TUB. So, I assume that either you talk nonsense, or I don’t understand you. Hence, the question..


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Yea the way I look at god knowing the future of human beings, is summarized by this sentence.
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Neither does omniscience imply the knowing of the unknowable
I would think that he probably has a good notion as to the destiny of his children and what their tendancys will lead them to, just like a father can predict what his child will do in different situations. But I doubt he knows that which cannot be known.

I agree with you Van that he is experiencing new experiences threw new relationships but I don't see anything in the u.b that indicates these new experience's change him at all, or cause him any growth. I would say he is the same as you're biblical god in the sense that he is perfect, complete and unchangeable in-total.

I like this quote in describing gods reality.
Quote:
In eternity all is — only has all not yet been revealed in time and space.

God is all there is, yet he has not revealed all of himself and all of the reality that he exists in and he never can because he goes on forever into infinity. So there will always be something new that god reveals of himself.

I agree that the Supreme is growing and evolving though..
Quote:
1264.1) 115:4.2 The source of the Supreme is in the Paradise Trinity — eternal, actual, and undivided Deity. The Supreme is first of all a spirit person, and this spirit person stems from the Trinity. But the Supreme is secondly a Deity of growth — evolutionary growth — and this growth derives from the two triodities, actual and potential.

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The point I keep not making is God is so much more than my biblical god - certainly not less. But that experiential God The Supreme is a participant in creation's evolution.....as the universe grows, by the acre and by the soul, and as souls ascend, God is more than before and becomes so BY His perfection and completion. This relationship with His ascenders is a beautiful and inspiring closeness and was demonstrated so well by The Master while a mortal or the realm. Thanks for the quotes Boom....they say what I mean but what I do not say very well myself.


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Okay As-Above-So-Below. If I understand you correctly, you basically say that our mind/brain can function at a different (higher) level which might alter our perception of reality, including our memory (sense of time).

That may be true. So called cosmic experiences and/or the use of certain drugs may testify to that. But I don’t think it is exactly supported by your quote 12:6.6, where the revelators speak of "the reaction of an unidentified level of mind" which "probably discloses the activities of the Ultimate and the presence-performances of the Absolutes". To the revelators, an "unidentified level of mind" must be vastly different from any level of mind simple mortal creatures might ever exhibit.

Whereas the revelators state in 12:6.5: "When matter, mind, and spirit are unified by creature personality, we are unable fully to predict the decisions of such a freewill being"; they also make it clear that material (predictable) reality "is almost entirely unreal [to them], being merely a shadow of the substance of spirit realities." (44:0.15)

So, even if the human mind/brain would be capable of reaching a higher functional level (a kind of functional phase-shift), this doesn’t appear to be supported by your quotes. And I don’t think it is explicitly suggested anywhere in TUB..

Also note that God-consciousness (as a concept in TUB) is not stated anywhere to enhance short term or long term memory functions.

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44:0.15 All these activities of the morontia and spirit worlds are real. To spirit beings the spirit world is a reality. To us the material world is the more unreal. The higher forms of spirits freely pass through ordinary matter. High spirits are reactive to nothing material excepting certain of the basic energies. To material beings the spirit world is more or less unreal; to spirit beings the material world is almost entirely unreal, being merely a shadow of the substance of spirit realities.


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Yea Van the supreme being is interesting in that it is evolving with us. I think of the Supreme Being as being the hand of god or god escaping infinite reality and invading finite reality. I still don't see any reason though to think that god is growing or experiences growth of any kind even though with the supreme he evolves in finite reality. Though I definitely can see how this is a new experience for god, one that he could not have experienced without other beings.

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As-Above-So-Below wrote:
Bart:
As far as short or long term memory goes, I don’t think the revelators intended that the UB should be a beginners course in some subjects and there is plenty of information on this subject on the internet. However, I do think that the revelators presented the UB as was admitted, in an abridged format in order to stimulate these types of dissertations. The following quote does have some correlation to the subject although I do not have that much time to prequalify it for you.
Quote:
(450.6) 40:9.4 There is, however, one particular in which Spirit-fused mortals differ from their ascendant brethren: Mortal memory of human experience on the material worlds of origin survives death in the flesh because the indwelling Adjuster has acquired a spirit counterpart, or transcript, of those events of human life which were of spiritual significance. But with Spirit-fused mortals there exists no such mechanism whereby human memory may persist. The Adjuster transcripts of memory are full and intact, but these acquisitions are experiential possessions of the departed Adjusters and are not available to the creatures of their former indwelling, who therefore awaken in the resurrection halls of the morontia spheres of Nebadon as if they were newly created beings, creatures without consciousness of former existence.
That which is not underlined is in reference to Spirit-Fused mortals who have not experienced death and not returned to the world of their origin. Basically you don’t remember your previous mortal indwellings until you have been fused. Which means that until fusion occurs, when you die and are resurrected you kind of start from scratch again and maybe your next adjuster will be more experienced and will have your old adjuster’s transcripts. This is speculation, on my part based on how I read the UB but, you may get a different interpretation and I’m sure that this can be interpreted in several ways.


Since you do not bother to address my earlier supposition that what you are intending to say is that our material mind/brain can function at a qualitatively different (higher) level, which alters/enhances our perception of reality and memory, I will assume that is indeed what you are suggesting.

I still don’t see how this is supported by TUB. And if it is true, it would be a completely new neuro-scientific idea; certainly not a part of any beginners course on human memory.

Your subsequent quote (40:9.4) is completely beside any possible point in this 'discussion'. We are not spirit-fused mortals. According to TUB we are mortals of Adjuster-fusion potential, becoming Father-fused mortals.

Your additional quotes do not help either. These and your comments just add to my confusion about what you are actually intending to say.

Unless you can state what you mean in a few clear sentences, I will not continue this conversation and conclude that you are indeed just talking nonsense..


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The thread's topic is about time's relativity to eternity and God's "end plan" for the grand jubilee. Neither of which really interests me much but the topics of time, God's participation within time, and our perception of both are very interesting. First, let me conjecture that God the Supreme is evidence that there is yet to be purpose and progression on "into" eternity and infinity and that personage or aspect of God will play a critical role in that continuation of the adventure (sorry, there's that time thing again). For, IMO, the aggregate totality of His experience from all ascenders' faith and spirit progression is important to the Father's eternal plan and process.....or what's the point? So, the "end" and re-start alluded to by rich is rediculous. All that which has happened or yet to happen (there's that time thing again) is not to be cast aside or destroyed as some holy experiment by Him who created it...another form of primitive fear and pointless conjecture.

For the best description of our meager awareness of time and space, please reference Paper 130, sec. 5 or 6 - Jesus' discourse on both, wherein we are taught that ascenders have 7 dimensions to experience the physical plane progressively before escaping its limitations. And how impossible it is for any perspective WITHIN the dimensionality to discern the reality OF actual dimensionality. Perspective and context are EVERYTHING to perception and ours.....well, ours is like the baby who is self aware and aware of that in the field of vision and then discovers that which is behind them...new context....and then learns that things are in other rooms to be found as needed later....more context. We simply do not have the context to understand time or timelessness, finite space or infinite space....for even the time and space we inhabit are miniscule realities compared to the reality habitations of the time and space our reality lies within. That which we perceive is far less than there is. I suggest we get over it and allow the time/space progression to unfold with absolute confidence in Him who created it within eternity and infinity.

Our perception is our reality. But our perception is not THE reality. We can never understand that which we cannot either perceive or conceive. But I do like what Bart and As Above are discussing....the assistance or enhancement of our perception/conception to our minds from those loving personalities dedicated to our progress and faith. The more spirit led our mind becomes, the more of our perception may come from those not so limited as we are. Part of ascending is personally transcending one's current awareness and perception and context....what can be glimpsed? What can be known without mortal perceptive evidence? Remember the story/presentation of the horrific cave man? And the author walks us through the profound "changes" to the "reality" by panning back the camera slowly to enlarge the field/perspective until our original conclusion was transformed, simply by context. ONLY perspective was changed....not the reality.


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i'll pray on it. i'll let my supreme delight be in the character of God, and he shall surely give me the sincere desires of my heart. i shall commit my way to the Lord; trust in him, and he will act. For the Lord hears my cries, and he will regard my prayer.

146:2.9 Prayer is not designed as a technique for aggrandizing self or for gaining unfair advantage over one’s fellows. A thoroughly selfish soul cannot pray in the true sense of the word. Said Jesus: “Let your supreme delight be in the character of God, and he shall surely give you the sincere desires of your heart.” “Commit your way to the Lord; trust in him, and he will act.” “For the Lord hears the cry of the needy, and he will regard the prayer of the destitute.”

lwatkins wrote:
Rich --
Once again you're on the verge of losing your posting privileges. One more nonsense or self-aggrandizing post and your account will be permanently deactivated.

Larry


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For, IMO, the aggregate totality of His experience from all ascenders' faith and spirit progression is important to the Father's eternal plan and process.....or what's the point?


I believe that the Fathers plan is unchanging and that he is already aware of the process by which he will reveal himself and all of reality over the coarse of infinity. I don't think he is changing or growing by participating in finite reality as he does with the Supreme. However the Supreme experience's a growth and evolution, it will to one day also cease in growth.

(1280.6) 117:2.6 There will come an end sometime to the growth of the Supreme; his status will achieve completion (in the energy-spirit sense). This termination of the evolution of the Supreme will also witness the ending of creature evolution as a part of Supremacy.

I think the point is Love and Relationships. God is Love and enjoys the relationships with his children and his desire to reveal himself and all of reality over the coarse of infinity is the "point". IMO. I believe his primary goal to become closer with all of his children and that this revealing of himself and of all reality will continue on for ever because he goes on forever and he is infinite in all of his attributes. That is why there will never be an end to creations and reality. Revealing himself in finite reality is IMO what the Supreme Being represents. (The supreme will of the father in the finite world).

The Supreme Being is important for finite reality as he is the maximum finite expression of god but when we are in Paradise we will be communing with the Father. To all finite beings and finite persons we can approach the father threw the Supreme. A Paradise Son can walk right up to the literal Infinite Father.

I don't believe that God has any motive/possiblity to become more than he already he is. I think his motive is in the creation of the unverse and cosmos is a desire to have true relationships and love.

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Sorry on reference - actual is page1438, sec. 7 of Paper 130, especially last paragraph on page 1439. Boom - appreciate your perspective and my speculation is merely that. So, finaliters transcend their relationship with God The Supreme because of their ultimate ascension beyond time and space? Which according to the reference provided is an ever expanding experience through 7 dimensions of space/time during our ascendent adventure. So, does TUB present the point of or value of the accumulative aggregation of the totality of the ascension experience of all ascenders throughout time and space? His value to our experience is self evident but what value do we (each or all ascenders) bring or add to Universal Reality? Not arguing, sincerely interested. Love your perspective on "love and relationships" as primary to God's plan. Too many of us are too focused on goals or destinations rather than the simple process of giving love and seeking God to create the future.


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I would think mortal ascenders add alot to actualized reality and that there is much value in their combined progress. But adding to actualized reality does not mean you are adding to God. God is infinitely more and greater than the universe and all revealed reality. We as humans do not create new things (etleast not new to god), we will always be drawing from the reservoir of god. That is why we will always be doing his will as ours because we will be acting out reality and bringing into reality everything that is with god and in god.

Even our personalitys are not a new reality to god "there exists no personality except the fathers", yet the individuality of personality is a new experience in god and he desires this IMO for the purpose of relationship.

Quote:
(44.5) 3:1.2 “‘I am a God at hand as well as afar off,’ says the Lord. ‘Do not I fill heaven and earth?’” The Universal Father is all the time present in all parts and in all hearts of his far-flung creation. He is “the fullness of him who fills all and in all,” and “who works all in all,” and further, the concept of his personality is such that “the heaven (universe) and heaven of heavens (universe of universes) cannot contain him.” It is literally true that God is all and in all. But even that is not all of God. The Infinite can be finally revealed only in infinity; the cause can never be fully comprehended by an analysis of effects; the living God is immeasurably greater than the sum total of creation that has come into being as a result of the creative acts of his unfettered free will. God is revealed throughout the cosmos, but the cosmos can never contain or encompass the entirety of the infinity of God.


Quote:
2:1.5 No thing is new to God, and no cosmic event ever comes as a surprise; he inhabits the circle of eternity. He is without beginning or end of days. To God there is no past, present, or future; all time is present at any given moment. He is the great and only I AM.


All reality originates with the I AM (God). So the question is why would the I AM which is all of reality, bring about anything else? The answer is simple it had yet to experience relationship. It was a potential, that it had not yet experienced.

Etleast this is what I have gathered so far. There are better people to explain this stuff than me though.

I can't imagine Finaliters approaching God threw the supreme being because they would be so far removed from Finite reality. The Supreme Being being the maximum expression of god in finite reality, though perhaps they could if they wanted to, I am not sure though I haven't researched this enough. But I know that they could approach the Infinite Father directly in Paradise in his Infinite form, it is hard for me to imagine the finite incomplete form of god being more glorious than his Infinite and full form. I can't imagine what this being would look like :).

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