Urantia Book Forum

Urantia Book Discussion Board : Study Group
It is currently Sat Aug 08, 2020 1:24 pm +0000

All times are UTC - 7 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 93 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: I have a question..
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:29 pm +0000
Posts: 2444
Good conversation though :)..... I could be wrong about some of the things I am saying though sooooo I will read up in UB and listen to everyone talk about this more before I really make up my mind as to what god's foresight mean's to me etc......

IMO.... If god can see the future it is a mute point regarding our will because we will never have god perspective nor will the revelator's, so the entire paradox isn't relevant because we will never actually experience this infinite reality of gods perspective. The only way god's infinite foresight is relevant to me I suppose is that it enhance's my appreciation of him. God in the Urantia Book is more powerfull than any revelation of God that has been revealed so there is alot part's that we can look at and feel that god is invading our live's and our future's but I suppose that is what God does he invade's the live's of his children....

_________________
StrongcharactersRnotderivedfromnotdoingwrongbutratherfrom
actuallydoingrightUnselfishnesisthebadgeofhumangreatnes
Thehighestlevelsofselfrealizationareatainedbyworshipandservice
Thehapyandefectivepersonismotivatednotbyfearofwrongdoingbutby
loveofrightdoing


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: I have a question..
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:10 am +0000
Posts: 1945
Tony wrote:
... To God there is no past, present, or future; all time is present at any given moment. If this does not mean that God knows the future as well as the past and present, what do you believe it means? The future is part of time and if all time is present to God, he would therefore know what was going on in the future because the future is as the present to him. That seems rather clear to me. ...
Well, let me suggest you re-read my earlier posts in this thread. I think the future is unknown, even to God. That's the only way we can have true free will, which is a part of the overall ascension plan. But if you don't agree, I will (of course) agree to disagree.. :)


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: I have a question..
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:29 pm +0000
Posts: 2444
I can't remember where the quote was but I remember a quote saying something like the "mind of god has a plan for every mortal" I will look for the quote later tonight...... perhaps god has insight into the future of every individual being, but perhaps he doesn't "know" what exactly we will do he just has a plan layed out for them if they choose the divine path...Much like a earthly father prepare's the future for his child based on thier ability's skills etc........

I agree that it wouldn't seem fatherly to have absolute knowledge of everything the human will do in every moment of eternity...that seem's depressing...lol...Not to mention we do not exist in the future, so we are non-reality's as far as cosmic reality is concerned......I think that quote about God forseeing potential sin in his son's is similar to when a father can project his child stumbling at different points in his life...


I mean if God already knew who survive's and who does not, than there wouldn't be any need to rejoice in heaven when a sinner has admited his sin's and been saved..... If god -saves- mortal man than the use of the word -save- would suggest that his survival was not preditermined by god, or else they would use a different word and sentance...

_________________
StrongcharactersRnotderivedfromnotdoingwrongbutratherfrom
actuallydoingrightUnselfishnesisthebadgeofhumangreatnes
Thehighestlevelsofselfrealizationareatainedbyworshipandservice
Thehapyandefectivepersonismotivatednotbyfearofwrongdoingbutby
loveofrightdoing


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: I have a question..
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:40 pm +0000
Posts: 2565
HI ALL 8)

Bart Said;
'' Well, let me suggest you re-read my earlier posts in this thread. I think the future is unknown, even to God. That's the only way we can have true free will, which is a part of the overall ascension plan. But if you don't agree, I will (of course) agree to disagree..''

Brother Bart I Agree .

Just a Note / Suggestion To Others ... IMHO
DONT Make the Mistake , Error of singeling Out
ONE Specific Quote and Focusing on that ONE
Alone , As takeing ONE Quote out of context
Instead of Relateing that Quote in regards to the
Truth , Meanings and Values Together with ALL
The Others , Its THEN That We Can See The Greater
Picture Presented in the Papers .
Its Then that ALL The Pieces of the Puzzel
Fit Together , For a Greater Comprehension , Understanding/s
OF What .... IS Said , And What It Means .
THIS Does Not Mean that ANY Single Quote IS WRONG.

IT ONLY Means that We may NOT be Seeing , Understanding
OR Misunderstanding .... THE BIGER PICTURE .

The Truth and Fact IS , That Freewill IS A Gift From GOD
ONE That NO Being in the Whole Universe CAN Ever
Take away from US .
IF GOD Foreknows Every Future Act of a man .
Then , That would mean that GOD Predestines Everything
and Every Event in Time . AND WE Would Merely
BE Robots OR Puppets on His String .
IF THAT Were True then Freewill Would be a Lie .
Predestination Theory IS A LIE .

Also , IF GOD Foreknows ALL Things
Then GOD Would Know Who will be Saved
Born Again , to Do His Will .
AND WHO Would NOT BE SAVED ,
SO Then , GOD Would have to have Predestined
Which One of His Children Will be SAVED And Do HIS WILL
And Who Would NOT .
SO HE Would Foreknow ahead of time ,
WHO WILL Live IN THE LIGHT
AND WHO WILL LIVE IN THE DARKNESS .

SO Those That Live/d IN HIS Light As HIS Sons
And Daughters , Would BE HIS Choice to Choose HIS
Chosen Ones , HIS ELECT And Elite Group Of SAVED
Favorites .
THE UNSAVED Would Live In The Darkness
Seperated From Him and Face Extiction as IF They Never Were.

AND That IS NOT TRUE
GOD HAS NO CHOSEN ONES .

FOR HE Offers ALL HIS Keys to the Kingdom
If We only are Sincere and Have A Flicker of Faith .


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: I have a question..
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:29 pm +0000
Posts: 2444
Yea god's foresight is a tricky concept.....but I think for me when I relate it to a father who plans his son's future out based on the grand scheme of the universe I can see how god can forsee an amazing future for his children that involves eternal service....

I guess i think of it as god has a plan for all created beings but ultimitely.... "his thoughts and plans unsearchable"...so I guess its hard to know how great his plans are and his vision for the future are considering the revelator's don't seem to really know....

But yea I think when they speak about god knowing the future for his kid's it is more similar to how a wise parent can forecast a beatiful future for his child....

God may live in the eternity......but we don't :(....lol so I guess we are just gona half to meet him half way a billion years from now...hahah between eternity and finite reality in the place called paradise hahahahah.

_________________
StrongcharactersRnotderivedfromnotdoingwrongbutratherfrom
actuallydoingrightUnselfishnesisthebadgeofhumangreatnes
Thehighestlevelsofselfrealizationareatainedbyworshipandservice
Thehapyandefectivepersonismotivatednotbyfearofwrongdoingbutby
loveofrightdoing


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: I have a question..
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:10 am +0000
Posts: 1945
Hi all. :) I think we all agree that we do have free will. The question seems to be whether the fact that "to God there is no past, present, or future; and all time is present at any given moment (2:1.5)" means that God knows our individual future with 100% certainty before we ourselves do. IMO, this is not the case, otherwise (per definition) we can’t have free will.

I basically argued/showed that 2:1.5 must mean that God knows all possible future (hence he is never subjected to surprise), but within these limits we do have true free will, even though God may be able to predict our future choices e.g. with 99% certainty.. Again, if God knows the exact future at any given moment, then why didn’t the revelators simply say so? And I don’t see how this is necessarily implied by the fact that "to God all time is present at any given moment". This only indicates God’s timeless perspective of what we see/experience as past, present, and future. It doesn’t mean that God absolutely knows all our future choices.

And there is a plan for all of us, but we "are at full liberty to reject (or accept) any part or all of this program (110:2.1)". Thus, our free will "constitutes man’s greatest opportunity and his supreme cosmic responsibility (112:5.5)"..

Quote:
110:2.1 When Thought Adjusters indwell human minds, they bring with them the model careers, the ideal lives, as determined and foreordained by themselves and the Personalized Adjusters of Divinington, which have been certified by the Personalized Adjuster of Urantia. Thus they begin work with a definite and predetermined plan for the intellectual and spiritual development of their human subjects, but it is not incumbent upon any human being to accept this plan. You are all subjects of predestination, but it is not foreordained that you must accept this divine predestination; you are at full liberty to reject any part or all of the Thought Adjusters' program. It is their mission to effect such mind changes and to make such spiritual adjustments as you may willingly and intelligently authorize, to the end that they may gain more influence over the personality directionization; but under no circumstances do these divine Monitors ever take advantage of you or in any way arbitrarily influence you in your choices and decisions. The Adjusters respect your sovereignty of personality; they are always subservient to your will.

112:5.5 And it is this very power of choice, the universe insignia of freewill creaturehood, that constitutes man’s greatest opportunity and his supreme cosmic responsibility. Upon the integrity of the human volition depends the eternal destiny of the future finaliter; upon the sincerity of the mortal free will the divine Adjuster depends for eternal personality; upon the faithfulness of mortal choice the Universal Father depends for the realization of a new ascending son; upon the steadfastness and wisdom of decision-actions the Supreme Being depends for the actuality of experiential evolution.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: I have a question..
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:29 pm +0000
Posts: 2444
Yea in summary God cannot know our future because we don't live in the future lol, even though he does.

_________________
StrongcharactersRnotderivedfromnotdoingwrongbutratherfrom
actuallydoingrightUnselfishnesisthebadgeofhumangreatnes
Thehighestlevelsofselfrealizationareatainedbyworshipandservice
Thehapyandefectivepersonismotivatednotbyfearofwrongdoingbutby
loveofrightdoing


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: I have a question..
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 16, 2016 11:56 pm +0000
Posts: 3
Location: Redmond, Oregon
Hello all,

I've been a UB reader off and on, and use this great site for reference among a few other UB sites. Love this topic,...currently most active at TheologyForums, and there is a thread on this subject concerning some basic ideas held within 'Open Theism' or the 'Open View' among some liberal protestant theologians which correlates quite nicely with the UB teaching on it, while the UB also has a nuance of 'process theology' woven into it too :)

Anyways,....Not sure if Im allowed to link to other discussion forums here or not, but was going to add to the thread on that forum with some insights from the UB on this matter,.....Paper 118 being of significance, - the UB is quite comprehensive on the subject.

I definitely find the 'open view' holding that God does not absolutely know the future, granted free will contigencies of potentials/possibiilities, but does know all potentials and possibilities that can and will take place within all that is probable and possible, of course.

Awesome thread, and hope to be more active here as interest continues 8)


Paul

_________________
Ever Expanding Consciousness


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: I have a question..
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:52 am +0000
Posts: 1036
Hello Paul and welcome!

Probably best not to bring over threads from another forum; although, I don't see it necessarily in the rules so perhaps the moderator will allow it.

As for the 'open view' you mentioned, I have not heard it referred to as such, but I believe the Urantia Book holds to that view. God knows all potential outcomes, but our free will decisions make potentials into actuals.

I hope to see you posting more!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: I have a question..
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 4428
Welcome Paul!! Like you I really enjoy a great philosophical paradox!!! This one's a real humdinger!!

According to the UB there is no doubt or equivocation regarding personal freewill choice as an absolute and universal fact which results in potential and the realization of potential which creates ever new potentials for future actualization which all depends upon unknown and uncertain choices by the personal freewill choices in time by beings not yet born or created in time.

I think uncertainties exist in time but not eternity.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: I have a question..
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 16, 2016 11:56 pm +0000
Posts: 3
Location: Redmond, Oregon
fanofVan wrote:
Welcome Paul!! Like you I really enjoy a great philosophical paradox!!! This one's a real humdinger!!

According to the UB there is no doubt or equivocation regarding personal freewill choice as an absolute and universal fact which results in potential and the realization of potential which creates ever new potentials for future actualization which all depends upon unknown and uncertain choices by the personal freewill choices in time by beings not yet born or created in time.

I think uncertainties exist in time but not eternity.


Yes, its so awesome! - its logical that 'God' would only know what is actually 'knowable' and in reference to the past, present and future,...free will in order to be actually 'free' must include a dimension of 'uncertainty' in the random flux of choice-determinations. Some diehard christian theists however, many of them Calvinists insist in God's full and perfect omniscience, while their theology is locked into a 'foreknowledge/predesstination' paradigm....so they have a vested interest in God somehow knowing all who will be saved or not, in a 'double predestination' assumption. They want to give God all knowledge to satisfy their own theological needs, it seems.

I like that God may NOT know the future fully, because of free will contigencies.....'choice' having 'co-creative' powers involved. The UB gives alot of insight into the 'sovereingnty of free will' which might be too much for conservative christiains to handle! - well, thats where our responsibility comes into view, regarding both 'soteriology' and 'eschatology'....so the UB may add some important insights into the bigger picture, that the Bible alone does not include or articulate.

_________________
Ever Expanding Consciousness


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: I have a question..
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:27 pm +0000
Posts: 97
Location: west central florida
It's endlessly intriguing, this question of free will. In the search for God we can't help but think about it. But all my philosophizing hasn't satisfied me, there are still questions, opinions, theories. In truth, I know how mechanical and conditioned I am in behavior and thought. What is actually "free" in my experience?

Everyday I go through my life unconscious of this question of freedom. A thousand little things to do from wake to sleep, and at each intersection of me and others stuff just happens, and I react. I'm predictable and habitual, just as we all are when we sleep-walk through our day...until I'm not!

Of itself (seemingly), I am suddenly aware that I am alive and I am here now, in a moment, doing whatever it is I am doing, but observing it, or rather, being observed. I may be angry, or bored, or happy, but I have no choice -I'm conditioned. Being present now to myself, and unattached to, but aware of this instant in time, I am free in the only thing that really matters - my attitude toward the reality in front of me. And my attitude more and more is to follow God's will with the acknowledgement that I need help knowing it.

Thanks, freelight, for reviving this thread.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: I have a question..
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 4428
freelight - I love the presentations of the several forms/persons of Deity which are experiential and how the First Source and Center prioritizes freewill and potential and uncertainty and adventure and experiential wisdom and the perpetuation of potential by its actualization.

gizmo - your post reminded me of the movie Groundhog Day!! Hahaha. We are only as free as our habits allow us to be. How thoughtful are we as we go through the day? Are our responses to the intersections of circumstance and situations and relationship and decisions automatic and automated? Or do we consider outcomes and opportunities? We are only as free to choose as we choose to be I think.

Some of us are mere slaves to our habits and predictable reactions.

8)


Last edited by fanofVan on Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:49 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: I have a question..
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:27 pm +0000
Posts: 97
Location: west central florida
Quote:
Some of us are mere slaves to our habits and predictable reactions.


Amen. And realizing this is the beginning of waking up.

I am a believer in the legitimacy of the UB, which has answered so many of my questions, but reading it and knowing of it, even believing in it, does not make anyone more spiritual. Billions of folks have not heard of the UB, and spiritual giants are among them. God has many ways and means to reach His children, but when reached, the children have work to do in the real world, and that starts with self awareness, the desire to know His will, and the effort to meet every challenge with love.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: I have a question..
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:52 am +0000
Posts: 1036
gizmo wrote:
Quote:
Some of us are mere slaves to our habits and predictable reactions.


Amen. And realizing this is the beginning of waking up.

I am a believer in the legitimacy of the UB, which has answered so many of my questions, but reading it and knowing of it, even believing in it, does not make anyone more spiritual. Billions of folks have not heard of the UB, and spiritual giants are among them. God has many ways and means to reach His children, but when reached, the children have work to do in the real world, and that starts with self awareness, the desire to know His will, and the effort to meet every challenge with love.


Nicely said. I like that.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 93 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Registered users: Google Feedfetcher


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You can post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group