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 Post subject: Re: I have a question..
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Bart wrote:
Tony wrote:
Bart, I'm not sure what you're asking. In my analogy we still have our (relative) free will. We still make the choices. God knows those choices we have made/are making/will make because sees the entire timeline and can jump in at any point he chooses. …

Hi Tony. Nicki Jane’s original question was: if God already knows our life from beginning to end, then how can we have free will? And you say: God knows the choices we made, we are making, and we will make, but we still make these choices ourselves.

The problem with your view (if I understand you correctly) is that if at any moment God already knows our exact future choices, then (per definition) we do not have free will. Free will implies some measure of (relative) freedom to choose what we want, such that it cannot (or will not) be predicted in any way with absolute certainty by anything but our own free will, not even by God.


Sorry for the delay in responding. I haven't checked in for a while.

I disagree. Just because God knows our exact future choices does not mean we did not/will not freely make those choices. It just means we are not aware at this moment that we will make those choices in the future. God is not predicting the choices we will make, he knows because he can see them whenever he wants to as he is not limited to seeing the particular moment which we are focused on. Nicki's original quote said:

Quote:
2:1.5 No thing is new to God, and no cosmic event ever comes as a surprise; he inhabits the circle of eternity. He is without beginning or end of days. To God there is no past, present, or future; all time is present at any given moment. He is the great and only I AM.


"To God there is no past, present, or future; all time is present at any given moment." God can see the exact future as it has already unfolded through the process of our free will choices because he is not limited by the concept of time, which he himself invented. To use another admittedly crude analogy, it could be said that we are living through a recording of our lives and all the choices we have already made. Again, it doesn't mean we aren't really making those future choices. All it means is that because of God's design choice, our consciousnesses are only aware of the choices we have made at the present moment and those we have made in the past. God's consciousness is aware of our choices in the past, present and future because for him "all time is present at any given moment."

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"God alone can be in two places"

" the cosmo's can never contain or encompass the entirity of the infinity of god"

" God is possesed of unlimited power to know all things"

"We are not wholly certain as to whether or not God chooses to foreknow events of sin. But even if God should foreknow the freewill acts of his children, such foreknowledge does not in the least abrogate their freedom. One thing is certain: God is never subjected to surprise".

"The creature can hardly understand the range and limitation's of the will of the creator"


I guess from those quote's I wouldn't be surprised if God know's our future in eternity. How that is possible is beyond my comprehension, but then again all of god's attributes and ability's stager my imagination.

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Tony wrote:
… "To God there is no past, present, or future; all time is present at any given moment." God can see the exact future as it has already unfolded through the process of our free will choices because he is not limited by the concept of time, which he himself invented. To use another admittedly crude analogy, it could be said that we are living through a recording of our lives and all the choices we have already made. Again, it doesn't mean we aren't really making those future choices. All it means is that because of God's design choice, our consciousnesses are only aware of the choices we have made at the present moment and those we have made in the past. God's consciousness is aware of our choices in the past, present and future because for him "all time is present at any given moment."
Tony, I still don’t see the difference between what you say and predetermination or determinism. "To God there is no past, present, or future; all time is present at any given moment.(2:1.5)". This doesn’t necessarily mean that God knows all our future choices at any given moment. I think TUB says that God may be aware of all our possible future choices and even of all possible future outcomes of the subsequent choices we will make in our lives. "This foreordination of these maximum limits does not, however, in the least abridge the sovereignty of creature will within these boundaries." "Within these limits we have true free will." (118:7.1).

In the context of the general philosophical/metaphysical debate about what constitutes individual free will, such a view may be called libertarianism and opposes the deterministic view that there is only one possible future (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism_(metaphysics)).

Here are some more passages from The Urantia Book that might clarify this concept of relative free will:

Quote:
110:2.1 When Thought Adjusters indwell human minds, they bring with them the model careers, the ideal lives, as determined and foreordained by themselves and the Personalized Adjusters of Divinington, which have been certified by the Personalized Adjuster of Urantia. Thus they begin work with a definite and predetermined plan for the intellectual and spiritual development of their human subjects, but it is not incumbent upon any human being to accept this plan. You are all subjects of predestination, but it is not foreordained that you must accept this divine predestination; you are at full liberty to reject any part or all of the Thought Adjusters' program. It is their mission to effect such mind changes and to make such spiritual adjustments as you may willingly and intelligently authorize, to the end that they may gain more influence over the personality directionization; but under no circumstances do these divine Monitors ever take advantage of you or in any way arbitrarily influence you in your choices and decisions. The Adjusters respect your sovereignty of personality; they are always subservient to your will.

118:1.9 On the levels of the infinite and the absolute the moment of the present contains all of the past as well as all of the future. I AM signifies also I WAS and I WILL BE. And this represents our best concept of eternity and the eternal.

118:1.10 On the absolute and eternal level, potential reality is just as meaningful as actual reality. Only on the finite level and to time-bound creatures does there appear to be such a vast difference. To God, as absolute, an ascending mortal who has made the eternal decision is already a Paradise finaliter. But the Universal Father, through the indwelling Thought Adjuster, is not thus limited in awareness but can also know of, and participate in, every temporal struggle with the problems of the creature ascent from animallike to Godlike levels of existence.

118:7.1 The function of Creator will and creature will, in the grand universe, operates within the limits, and in accordance with the possibilities, established by the Master Architects. This foreordination of these maximum limits does not, however, in the least abridge the sovereignty of creature will within these boundaries. Neither does ultimate foreknowledge—full allowance for all finite choice—constitute an abrogation of finite volition. A mature and farseeing human being might be able to forecast the decision of some younger associate most accurately, but this foreknowledge takes nothing away from the freedom and genuineness of the decision itself. The Gods have wisely limited the range of the action of immature will, but it is true will, nonetheless, within these defined limits.

118:7.2 Even the supreme correlation of all past, present, and future choice does not invalidate the authenticity of such choosings. It rather indicates the foreordained trend of the cosmos and suggests foreknowledge of those volitional beings who may, or may not, elect to become contributory parts of the experiential actualization of all reality.

118.9.2 Mechanisms produced by higher minds function to liberate their creative sources but to some degree unvaryingly limit the action of all subordinate intelligences. To the creatures of the universes this limitation becomes apparent as the mechanism of the universes. Man does not have unfettered free will; there are limits to his range of choice, but within the radius of this choice his will is relatively sovereign.


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I may be wrong in saying this but I think the revelator's are saying they are not sure if god does know the future act's of his children or not just from this quote.

"We are not wholly certain as to whether or not God chooses to foreknow events of sin. But even if God should foreknow the freewill acts of his children, such foreknowledge does not in the least abrogate their freedom. One thing is certain: God is never subjected to surprise".

Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if God know's our future, there are so many aspect's of god that are amazing to me that I cannot comprehend :).

I will say this though with certainty, I am so glad that god in the urantia book is revealed as a being more powerfull than any other being has been revealed in any revelation. Never in any previous religion has god been given this much beauty and power.

I feel that the first section's of the Urantia Book are the most amazing and powerfull section's of the entire book and truly all that matter's in our lives is God and I feel so lucky to have the knowledge of how powerfull God really is, I feel set free. Wether he know's what I will do in the future I am not certain, but if he does than I wouldn't be surprised because of how unbelievably powerfull he is.

Anyway's I am glad we all love the urantia book here, and though we may debate minor difference's we all agree more or less on where we want to go :).

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THE Mind of GOD Has A Plan for ALL His Children of Time .
Plan B ... IS ... Its Our Freewill Choice to Choose His Plan .
HE Will give Us the Keys to the Kingdom Free for the Asking .
THE I AM
THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA
MAY Know the Begining and the End
But Everything between IS Still Our Choice to Choose ...
Decisions , decisions and more decisions .
And I AM May Choose To foreknow ''such foreknowledge does not in the least abrogate their freedom. One thing is certain: God is never subjected to surprise".

P.365 - §3
There is in the mind of God a plan which embraces every creature of all his vast domains, and this plan is an eternal purpose of boundless opportunity, unlimited progress, and endless life. And the infinite treasures of such a matchless career are yours for the striving!


Last edited by coop on Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:11 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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The Fact that WE/MANKIND
Can at anytime Choose to embrace Sin , Evil an Inequity
Proves That We Do Have the Freewill Choice to Choose
The Light or Live in Darkness .

1.1.2
The Universal Father never imposes any form of arbitrary recognition, formal worship, or slavish service upon the intelligent will creatures of the universes. The evolutionary inhabitants of the worlds of time and space must of themselves — in their own hearts — recognize, love, and voluntarily worship him. The Creator refuses to coerce or compel the submission of [the spiritual free wills of his material creatures. ]The affectionate dedication of the human will to the doing of the Father’s will is man’s choicest gift to God; in fact, such a consecration of creature will constitutes man’s only possible gift of true value to the Paradise Father. In God, man lives, moves, and has his being; there is nothing which man can give to God except this choosing to abide by the Father’s will, and such decisions, effected by the intelligent will creatures of the universes, constitute the reality of that true worship which is so satisfying to the love-dominated nature of the Creator Father.


The Danger of the gift of Freewill choices of man , Is that
One may even Choose to Embrace Sin and Live in Darkness .
ITS A Spiritual Suicide ~ For the Wages of Sin IS Death .

2.3.4 When this sentence is finally confirmed, the sin-identified being instantly becomes as though he had not been. There is no resurrection from such a fate; it is everlasting and eternal. The living energy factors of identity are resolved by the transformations of time and the metamorphoses of space into the cosmic potentials whence they once emerged. As for the personality of the iniquitous one, it is deprived of a continuing life vehicle by the creature’s failure to make those choices and final decisions which would have assured eternal life. When the continued embrace of sin by the associated mind culminates in complete self-identification with iniquity, then upon the cessation of life, upon cosmic dissolution, such an isolated personality is absorbed into the oversoul of creation, becoming a part of the evolving experience of the Supreme Being. Never again does it appear as a personality; its identity becomes as though it had never been. In the case of an Adjuster-indwelt personality, the experiential spirit values survive in the reality of the continuing Adjuster.

5.1.10 The Father is not in spiritual hiding, but so many of his creatures have hidden themselves away in the mists of their own willful decisions and for the time being have separated themselves from the communion of his spirit and the spirit of his Son by the choosing of their own perverse ways and by the indulgence of the self-assertiveness of their intolerant minds and unspiritual natures.

12.6.5
The universe is highly predictable only in the quantitative or gravity-measurement sense; even the primal physical forces are not responsive to linear gravity, nor are the higher mind meanings and true spirit values of ultimate universe realities. Qualitatively, the universe is not highly predictable as regards new associations of forces, either physical, mindal, or spiritual, although many such combinations of energies or forces become partially predictable when subjected to critical observation.
When matter, mind, and spirit are unified by creature personality, we are unable fully to predict the decisions of such a freewill being.

P.435 - §7
The keys of the kingdom of heaven are: sincerity, more sincerity, and more sincerity. All men have these keys. Men use them--advance in spirit status--by decisions, by more decisions, and by more decisions. The highest moral choice is the choice of the highest possible value, and always--in any sphere, in all of them--this is to choose to do the will of God.


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coop wrote:
...
THE I AM
THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA
MAY Know the Begining and the End
But Everything between IS Still Our Choice to Choose ...

Thanks for the quotes Coop. :) And I agree with your above statement. That is what the revelators appear to be saying.. God may foreknow/foreordain our destiny, but he doesn’t know at any given moment the exact future paths that each individual will take to get there (i.e. all our choices/decisions within the finite limited boundaries of possible future choice)..
Quote:
12:6.5 The universe is highly predictable only in the quantitative or gravity-measurement sense; even the primal physical forces are not responsive to linear gravity, nor are the higher mind meanings and true spirit values of ultimate universe realities. Qualitatively, the universe is not highly predictable as regards new associations of forces, either physical, mindal, or spiritual, although many such combinations of energies or forces become partially predictable when subjected to critical observation. When matter, mind, and spirit are unified by creature personality, we are unable fully to predict the decisions of such a freewill being.

118.7.1 7. OMNISCIENCE AND PREDESTINATION The function of Creator will and creature will, in the grand universe, operates within the limits, and in accordance with the possibilities, established by the Master Architects. This foreordination of these maximum limits does not, however, in the least abridge the sovereignty of creature will within these boundaries. Neither does ultimate foreknowledge — full allowance for all finite choice — constitute an abrogation of finite volition. A mature and farseeing human being might be able to forecast the decision of some younger associate most accurately, but this foreknowledge takes nothing away from the freedom and genuineness of the decision itself. The Gods have wisely limited the range of the action of immature will, but it is true will, nonetheless, within these defined limits.

BTW, here’s an interesting explanation of the term foreordain or foreordination as used in the Bible (and The Urantia Book)..
Quote:
The word foreordain is uniformly used in the Revised Version (British and American) to render the Greek proorizo, in the passages where this verb occurs (Acts 4:28; Rom 8:29,30; 1 Cor 2:7; Eph 15,11). In the passages in Romans and Ephesians it takes the place of the King James Version word predestinate, a return to the usage of the older English versions The word has simply the sense of determining beforehand. It is thus kindred in meaning with a number of other New Testament words expressing the idea of Divine purpose, as foreknow (in pregnant sense, Acts 2:23; Rom 8:29, etc.); determine (Acts 17:26); appoint (1 Pet 2:8). Foreordination, in the widest sense, is coextensive with the sphere of God's universal providence, being but another name for that Divine plan, purpose or counsel which embraces all things, great and small (Mt 10:29,30), that happen in Nature, or fall out in human life. Man's free actions are not regarded in Scripture as excluded from it (Acts 2:28). Foreordination, at the same time, is not to be conceived of as in any way overriding, or doing violence to, human freedom. Man acts freely, as Nature acts necessarily, but it is God who appoints the time, place and circumstances of the free act, permits its happening, and overrules it and its issues for the furthering of His own wise and holy ends. Foreordination in the sphere of grace has respect to the choice, calling and blessing of those who, through faith, are made partakers of eternal life (Rom 8:29,30; Eph 1:5,11).

(http://www.bible-history.com/isbe/F/FOREORDAIN%3B+FORORDINATION/)


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But I think that this quote is saying that he may know our future descision's and choice's because Sin is a choice and descision, and our "freewill acts" are our choice's and descisions.....

"We are not wholly certain as to whether or not God chooses to foreknow events of sin. But even if God should foreknow the freewill acts of his children, such foreknowledge does not in the least abrogate their freedom. One thing is certain: God is never subjected to surprise".

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Let's say I have the ability to go back in time. I go back to see my younger self walking up to a crossroad. I know that at this particular crossroad I had chosen to take the left turn and sure enough, I watch my younger self turn left. Does my knowing this particular choice mean that my younger self had no choice but to turn left? No, of course it doesn't. It only means that because I already know what has happened, I know the choice that was made. Now I don't have the ability to see the future, but the quotes we have already shared have shown that God does indeed have this ability. God can look at the future just as we would look at the past. I submit again that just because God already knows what we are going to choose in the future, this does not in any way invalidate the (limited) free will that we used in making those choices. I will admit that from our limited perspective, this may indeed look like our future is predetermined. Indeed, from our current perspective and by this reasoning, our future IS predetermined! However, once we have lived through this time we will be able to look back from that future perspective just as I looked back at my younger self at the crossroad and realize that we did indeed make all those choices at each moment in the timeline. I believe this concept is supported by the UB. I don't have the references handy and I'll try to find them later, but I recall the book stating something to the effect that although the Supreme Being is growing through the spiritual activity of the grand universe, in fact, the Supreme Being already exists on Paradise. How can he be growing and yet already grown? How can our future choices be known and yet we still have free will to choose now? The answer is the temporal perspective from which one is currently looking colors the perception.

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I guess another way for me to look at it is that Gods knowledge of us individually is god-like. he can be completely focussed to our need's individually because he can be in two places at once, he can I am sure also be in infinite places at once.

So in reality he know's us infinitely better than we know ourselves. In a way I look at it as if I were god's only created being I would not be surprised that he could forsee my future.

And so now just because there is an infinite number of son's that does not mean that he is in way less focussed on me if I were his only created being because he can be in an infinite number of places at once and not lose anything.

I think its just confusing to think that we could be given as much personal attention and love as if we were the only being in the universe, because there are so many other beings out there. yet if God can be personally present in an infinite number places at once than It makes more sense to me.

I mean really I am sure we can all grasp that God forsaw the future of his created eternal son because of how intimitely close the eternal son is in relation to God. It may just be surprising to think that God can put that much attention and care into us as he does his eternal son.... I am sure god envision's a future for all created being's who desire to have life in him and with him just as he does for micheal, and not a symbolic future either, but a real future unrevealed to even the revelators...

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First of all, in common understanding, the very concept of free will implies that our choices are not absolutely predetermined or known in advance by anyone or anything, not even by God. And it is my humble opinion that such a concept of free will is also what the revelators had in mind. If not, then the term in the book becomes utterly meaningless; and the revelators should have explained their nonstandard interpretation of free will, or they should not have used the term.

I explained how the fact that "God is never subjected to surprise" (2:1.5, 3:3.4) doesn’t necessarily mean that God knows all our future choices. Instead, it appears to mean that God may know in advance all possible outcomes of all possible finite choice. Within this (safe) range of finite choice we have true free will. And I think this interpretation is fully compatible with the notion that "to God all time is present at any given moment" (2:1.5).

According to The Urantia Book, "God’s ultimate foreknowledge", "even the supreme correlation of all past, present, and future choice", fully allows for all finite free will choice and just "indicates the foreordained trend of the cosmos" (118:7.1-2). Divine foreknowledge is compared to "a mature and farseeing human being who might be able to forecast the decision of some younger associate most accurately, whereas this foreknowledge takes nothing away from the freedom and genuineness of the decision itself" (118:7.1).

Whether God chooses not to know or predetermine our finite choices (thus allowing us to have free will) is another question. The Father-I AM has infinity of will, "to deny the possibility of his volitional self-limitation amounts to a denial of the very concept of his volitional absoluteness" (4:4.4). And "God has decreed the sovereignty of the material and mortal will, and that decree is absolute" (5:6.8 ).

The revelators may not know "whether or not God chooses to foreknow events of sin" (3:3.4), but my guess is that he does. And the revelators do know that "The possibility of cosmic self-destruction cannot be avoided if the evolving personality is to be truly free in the exercise of finite will" (118:7.7), and "Sin in time-conditioned space clearly proves the temporal liberty—even license—of the finite will" (118:7.4).

After all, if God could know in advance exactly which of his creatures will self-destruct, then why did he create them in the first place, and what, then, constitutes their free will (to do God’s will)?


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Bart wrote:

After all, if God could know in advance exactly which of his creatures will self-destruct, then why did he create them in the first place, and what, then, constitutes their free will (to do God’s will)?


Well I guess in a sense we are not free in that if we do not choose to do god's will and choose to be his partner in eternity we become nothing.

I don't think that god having foreknowledge of our future though makes us not free. Like you said he just can accurately predict where we are going because he is our parent so well he can envision us far in the future, even though we are not there yet.

The book say's god makes only 2 distinction's to mortal's those who desire to do god's will and those who do not. Perhaps god can envision a future for those mortal's who desire to do god's will, and he see's the eternal plan set out for them at that moment when they begin to desire to do god's will in their soul....... And for those who haven't made up their mind yet maybe he hasn't even acknowledged their future career yet...

When I look at jesus life even he had a pretty good eye for telling which mortal's where ready for god and which were not and he did all this with a human mind. The book also say's that jesus envisioned the long career's for mortal's. I mean if jesus could do all this with a human mind, than the mind of god must have this ability times infinity black magic plus 1 hahahah.

I guess that may feel like an invasion of privacy and will but I dont think so.

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boomshuka wrote:
Well I guess in a sense we are not free in that if we do not choose to do god's will and choose to be his partner in eternity we become nothing.

I don't think that god having foreknowledge of our future though makes us not free. Like you said he just can accurately predict where we are going because he is our parent so well he can envision us far in the future, even though we are not there yet.

The book say's god makes only 2 distinction's to mortal's those who desire to do god's will and those who do not. Perhaps god can envision a future for those mortal's who desire to do god's will, and he see's the eternal plan set out for them at that moment when they begin to desire to do god's will in their soul....... And for those who haven't made up their mind yet maybe he hasn't even acknowledged their future career yet...

Yes.. The book says we do have free will. And individual free will is related to personality and has a creative or cocreative function in the overall evolution of God the Supreme and the perfection of the grand universe. "The bestowal of creature personality confers relative liberation from slavish response to antecedent causation" (5:6.9). "Personality is relatively creative or cocreative" (112:0.5).

And I think there may be more for us to choose than just doing God’s will or not. Possibly, we can do God’s will in (many) more than one way. That may constitute our personal creativity. To me, it’s interesting in this respect that in the field of computational problem solving, very noisy (pseudo-random) self-contained (recursive) search-algorithms, may autonomously arrive at new and unexpected high quality solutions in a complex problem-space. Such algorithms can be seen as agents and their pseudo-random, trial-and-error-like, problem-solving behaviour, might be somewhat akin to our creative free will.

You see, our personal free-will implements creativity; and as creative persons, we may be a part of God’s overall search-algorithm so to speak. As such, we must be searching for a possible solution of our own tiny part of the big puzzle. :)

Something like this may be suggested by the revelators, regarding the evolution of God the Supreme: "We evolve in him and he evolves in us. Sometime in the eternal future the evolution of Supreme Deity will become a completed fact of universe history" (31:10.5). And "if a creature rejects the eternal career, that part of the Supreme which was dependent on this creature’s choice experiences inescapable delay, a deprivation which must be compensated by substitutional or collateral experience" (117.4.2)..

Anyway, our individual task (or problem) seems to be to "transcend the material sequence of temporal events" (130:7.4). Thereby "the attainment of completed spiritual insight enables the ascending personality to detect (evolve) harmony in what was theretofore chaos" (117:7.14, 118:10.19)..

Quote:
5:6.9 The bestowal of creature personality confers relative liberation from slavish response to antecedent causation, and the personalities of all such moral beings, evolutionary or otherwise, are centered in the personality of the Universal Father. They are ever drawn towards his Paradise presence by that kinship of being which constitutes the vast and universal family circle and fraternal circuit of the eternal God. There is a kinship of divine spontaneity in all personality.

31:10.5 During the present universe age the evolving personalities of the grand universe suffer many difficulties due to the incomplete actualization of the sovereignty of God the Supreme, but we are all sharing the unique experience of his evolution. We evolve in him and he evolves in us. Sometime in the eternal future the evolution of Supreme Deity will become a completed fact of universe history, and the opportunity to participate in this wonderful experience will have passed from the stage of cosmic action.

117.4.2 Throughout the grand universe the Supreme struggles for expression. His divine evolution is in measure predicated on the wisdom-action of every personality in existence. When a human being chooses eternal survival, he is cocreating destiny; and in the life of this ascending mortal the finite God finds an increased measure of personality self-realization and an enlargement of experiential sovereignty. But if a creature rejects the eternal career, that part of the Supreme which was dependent on this creature’s choice experiences inescapable delay, a deprivation which must be compensated by substitutional or collateral experience; as for the personality of the nonsurvivor, it is absorbed into the oversoul of creation, becoming a part of the Deity of the Supreme.

117:7.14 The perfected grand universe of those future days will be vastly different from what it is at present. Gone will be the thrilling adventures of the organization of the galaxies of space, the planting of life on the uncertain worlds of time, and the evolving of harmony out of chaos, beauty out of potentials, truth out of meanings, and goodness out of values. The time universes will have achieved the fulfillment of finite destiny! And perhaps for a space there will be rest, relaxation from the agelong struggle for evolutionary perfection. But not for long! Certainly, surely, and inexorably the enigma of the emerging Deity of God the Ultimate will challenge these perfected citizens of the settled universes just as their struggling evolutionary forebears were once challenged by the quest for God the Supreme. The curtain of cosmic destiny will draw back to reveal the transcendent grandeur of the alluring absonite quest for the attainment of the Universal Father on those new and higher levels revealed in the ultimate of creature experience.

118:10.19 Providence becomes increasingly discernible as men reach upward from the material to the spiritual. The attainment of completed spiritual insight enables the ascending personality to detect harmony in what was theretofore chaos. Even morontia mota represents a real advance in this direction.

130:7.4 Time is the stream of flowing temporal events perceived by creature consciousness. time is a name given to the succession-arrangement whereby events are recognized and segregated. The universe of space is a time-related phenomenon as it is viewed from any interior position outside of the fixed abode of Paradise. The motion of time is only revealed in relation to something which does not move in space as a time phenomenon. In the universe of universes Paradise and its Deities transcend both time and space. On the inhabited worlds, human personality (indwelt and oriented by the Paradise Father’s spirit) is the only physically related reality which can transcend the material sequence of temporal events.


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 Post subject: Re: I have a question..
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Tony wrote:
Let's say I have the ability to go back in time. I go back to see my younger self walking up to a crossroad. I know that at this particular crossroad I had chosen to take the left turn and sure enough, I watch my younger self turn left. Does my knowing this particular choice mean that my younger self had no choice but to turn left? No, of course it doesn't. It only means that because I already know what has happened, I know the choice that was made.
Hi Tony. If God has the ability to see/know your exact future (as you suggest), then what exactly constitutes your free will? If your present is somehow equivalent to God’s past, then when are/were you actually free to choose? Apparently not in the present, because (as you suggest) God somehow already knows any choice you will make, which simply means that somehow it was already made.. The (only) way out of this paradox is to assume that your present choices were already made in your past, or perhaps will (somehow) be made in your future (God’s present?). Either way, such a view is called determinism.

Tony wrote:
Now I don't have the ability to see the future, but the quotes we have already shared have shown that God does indeed have this ability. God can look at the future just as we would look at the past. I submit again that just because God already knows what we are going to choose in the future, this does not in any way invalidate the (limited) free will that we used in making those choices.
Please explain how/where The Urantia Book indicates that God knows the future? After all, if this is indeed the case, then why didn’t the revelators simply say so?

Tony wrote:
I will admit that from our limited perspective, this may indeed look like our future is predetermined. Indeed, from our current perspective and by this reasoning, our future IS predetermined! However, once we have lived through this time we will be able to look back from that future perspective just as I looked back at my younger self at the crossroad and realize that we did indeed make all those choices at each moment in the timeline. I believe this concept is supported by the UB. I don't have the references handy and I'll try to find them later, but I recall the book stating something to the effect that although the Supreme Being is growing through the spiritual activity of the grand universe, in fact, the Supreme Being already exists on Paradise. How can he be growing and yet already grown? How can our future choices be known and yet we still have free will to choose now? The answer is the temporal perspective from which one is currently looking colors the perception.
Again, please show me where TUB states (from any perspective) that our future is predetermined or pre-known. And according to the book: incomplete/imperfect/subinfinite/experiential beings like the Supreme being, do personally exist; mortal humans may be the most obvious example (106:0.3).


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 Post subject: Re: I have a question..
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Bart wrote:
Hi Tony. If God has the ability to see/know your exact future (as you suggest), then what exactly constitutes your free will? If your present is somehow equivalent to God’s past, then when are/were you actually free to choose? Apparently not in the present, because (as you suggest) God somehow already knows any choice you will make, which simply means that somehow it was already made.. The (only) way out of this paradox is to assume that your present choices were already made in your past, or perhaps will (somehow) be made in your future (God’s present?). Either way, such a view is called determinism.


I'm obviously not explaining myself very well and for that I apologize. I never meant to suggest that our future is actually predetermined. I was trying to show that it is simply our current perspective which makes it appear so. But it is only perspective! God's perspective is entirely different.

Bart wrote:
Please explain how/where The Urantia Book indicates that God knows the future? After all, if this is indeed the case, then why didn’t the revelators simply say so?


As the original post quoted:

Quote:
2:1.5 No thing is new to God, and no cosmic event ever comes as a surprise; he inhabits the circle of eternity. He is without beginning or end of days. To God there is no past, present, or future; all time is present at any given moment. He is the great and only I AM.


To God there is no past, present, or future; all time is present at any given moment. If this does not mean that God knows the future as well as the past and present, what do you believe it means? The future is part of time and if all time is present to God, he would therefore know what was going on in the future because the future is as the present to him. That seems rather clear to me.

To explain how this jives with free will, my conjecture would be that at the moment God created the time-space continuum, everything that happened in the continuum happened in a linear fashion - including our free will choices - but were instantly known to God as if they all happened at once. From his perspective, in which "all time is present at any given moment", I imagine it would look as though everything happens at once. The perspective we have is entirely different, of course.

Obviously I don't know exactly how it works because I'm not God, but I understand conceptually how free will and future omniscience can coexist and I've tried to explain that difficult concept as best as I can. At this point I can't really think of any other way to explain it to make it more clear so we may just have to agree to disagree. :)

_________________
"If a man places a gulf between himself and God, this gulf will bring fear. But if a man finds the support of the Invisible and Ineffable, he is free from fear." --from the Taittiriya Upanishad


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