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 Post subject: Re: I have a question..
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YSMAEL wrote:
But our NOW is different from God's NOW. Our NOW is just this moment in time but God's NOW is simultaneous in all time. Our view is of linear sequentiality but God's is of circular simultaneity.
I don’t think that you can say "our NOW is different from God’s NOW". Now simply denotes the present moment. To God, "who is all and in all" (3:1.2), "the moment of the present contains all of the past as well as all of the future" (118:1.9), which means that to God "potential reality is just as meaningful as actual reality" (118:1.10). This doesn’t mean, however, that God (all) exists anywhere else but now, or that he knows the exact future (potential reality), or that the future somehow already exists, in which case we couldn’t have free will.

We, on the other hand, "concentrate meaning-value into the present moment in such a way as to divorce the present of its true relationship to the not-present—the past-future" (118:1.8 ). This is due to our immature sectional view of the cyclical nonbeginning, nonending eternal continuum (or God; in whom we all live and move and have our being), the (sequential) fragments of which are called time..
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118:1.8 The time unit of immaturity concentrates meaning-value into the present moment in such a way as to divorce the present of its true relationship to the not-present—the past-future. The time unit of maturity is proportioned so to reveal the co-ordinate relationship of past-present-future that the self begins to gain insight into the wholeness of events, begins to view the landscape of time from the panoramic perspective of broadened horizons, begins perhaps to suspect the nonbeginning, nonending eternal continuum, the fragments of which are called time.

130.7.5 Animals do not sense time as does man, and even to man, because of his sectional and circumscribed view, time appears as a succession of events; but as man ascends, as he progresses inward, the enlarging view of this event procession is such that it is discerned more and more in its wholeness. That which formerly appeared as a succession of events then will be viewed as a whole and perfectly related cycle; in this way will circular simultaneity increasingly displace the onetime consciousness of the linear sequence of events.


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Well I think God's "now" moment is all of eternity, and that is what allows him to be the great and only "I AM". I think the revelator's hint at this nature when they say he exist's outside of time and space and dwells in eternity.

I dont think this makes us any less free though, it just mean's our father is powerfull beyond imagination and there may be no limit to him.....I guess though we don't have the free will to escape being partnered up with our father, unless we choose destruction...

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boomshuka wrote:
Well I think God's "now" moment is all of eternity, and that is what allows him to be the great and only "I AM". I think the revelator's hint at this nature when they say he exist's outside of time and space and dwells in eternity. ...
I don’t think The Urantia Book states anywhere that "God exists outside of time and space and dwells in eternity". TUB states that "God (Deity) transcends both time and space", which is a very different concept..
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130:7.4 Time is the stream of flowing temporal events perceived by creature consciousness. time is a name given to the succession-arrangement whereby events are recognized and segregated. The universe of space is a time-related phenomenon as it is viewed from any interior position outside of the fixed abode of Paradise. The motion of time is only revealed in relation to something which does not move in space as a time phenomenon. In the universe of universes Paradise and its Deities transcend both time and space. On the inhabited worlds, human personality (indwelt and oriented by the Paradise Father’s spirit) is the only physically related reality which can transcend the material sequence of temporal events.


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Bart wrote:
boomshuka wrote:
Well I think God's "now" moment is all of eternity, and that is what allows him to be the great and only "I AM". I think the revelator's hint at this nature when they say he exist's outside of time and space and dwells in eternity. ...
I don’t think The Urantia Book states anywhere that "God exists outside of time and space and dwells in eternity". TUB states that "God (Deity) transcends both time and space", which is a very different concept..
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130:7.4 Time is the stream of flowing temporal events perceived by creature consciousness. time is a name given to the succession-arrangement whereby events are recognized and segregated. The universe of space is a time-related phenomenon as it is viewed from any interior position outside of the fixed abode of Paradise. The motion of time is only revealed in relation to something which does not move in space as a time phenomenon. In the universe of universes Paradise and its Deities transcend both time and space. On the inhabited worlds, human personality (indwelt and oriented by the Paradise Father’s spirit) is the only physically related reality which can transcend the material sequence of temporal events.


Well if they transcend time, than time does not exist to them.

The whole issue of eternity is immense for comprehension.......I mean I dont know what "time" means to god hahaha Or what his relation is to it.....I am not even sure the revelator's fully know what Time mean's to god and what his relationship is to it fully......

34.4) 2:1.5 No thing is new to God, and no cosmic event ever comes as a surprise; he inhabits the circle of eternity. He is without beginning or end of days. To God there is no past, present, or future; all time is present at any given moment. He is the great and only I AM."

"Not only are his thoughts and plans unsearchable, but “he does great and marvelous things without number.” “God is great; we comprehend him not, neither can the number of his years be searched out.”

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boomshuka wrote:
Well if they transcend time, than time does not exist to them. ...
No. To transcend something, doesn’t necessarily mean you are not a part (or all) of it. Even us mortals can transcend time (see 130:7.4 above)! God is immanent and transcendent. He is all and more..
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3:1.2 “‘I am a God at hand as well as afar off,’ says the Lord. ‘Do not I fill heaven and earth?’” The Universal Father is all the time present in all parts and in all hearts of his far-flung creation. He is “the fullness of him who fills all and in all,” and “who works all in all,” and further, the concept of his personality is such that “the heaven (universe) and heaven of heavens (universe of universes) cannot contain him.” It is literally true that god is all and in all. But even that is not all of God. The Infinite can be finally revealed only in infinity; the cause can never be fully comprehended by an analysis of effects; the living God is immeasurably greater than the sum total of creation that has come into being as a result of the creative acts of his unfettered free will. God is revealed throughout the cosmos, but the cosmos can never contain or encompass the entirety of the infinity of God.


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Time/eternity seem to be the hardest of concept's for mortal's to understand in relation to the U.B paper's. Just because we have material mind's. I mean really its like a fish in a fishbowl trying to understand the speed at which satellites in outer space move hahahah. Trying to grasp how Eternal being's experience time is just one those concepts that makes me think about a quote in u.b how man's reach often goes farther than his grasp lol. Or something like that. I really cannot imagine how these being's expereince eternity, and I really cannot imagine how god experience's time. I find it interesting though that while these revelator's grasp eternity very well they have a have hard time comprehending how immense god is.

I imagine our highest concept's of experiencing timeless reality attain their maximum limit when we are able to view the shores of the mansion worlds.....Afterall Paul did envision this more enduring substance. Perhaps this is how we can trasnscend time....

I imagine to that experience with god will produce some timeless experience's...... so many questions......

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boomshuka wrote:
Time/eternity seem to be the hardest of concept's for mortal's to understand in relation to the U.B paper's. Just because we have material mind's. I mean really its like a fish in a fishbowl trying to understand the speed at which satellites in outer space move …
Yes. :) But our minds are not exactly "material". Mind (also) operates at the edge of the spiritual realm and our minds can transcend material (space-time) reality in terms of infinity (time/eternity) comprehension. Otherwise, why would the revelators even bother to explain the concept?

To me, one of the most fascinating and suggestive passages in The Urantia Book is this quote:
Quote:
105:0.1 To even high orders of universe intelligences infinity is only partially comprehensible, and the finality of reality is only relatively understandable. The human mind, as it seeks to penetrate the eternity-mystery of the origin and destiny of all that is called real, may helpfully approach the problem by conceiving eternity-infinity as an almost limitless ellipse which is produced by one absolute cause, and which functions throughout this universal circle of endless diversification, ever seeking some absolute and infinite potential of destiny.
Here, the revelators actually describe a simple mechanical model of all reality! And I think (as I argued elsewhere), they portray here what nowadays is known in mathematics as a chaotic oscillation. A chaotic oscillation can be imagined as a single dimensionless point (or a singularity), that describes an infinite oscillatory (cyclical) trajectory in a so-called state-space. The speed of the point may be (almost) infinite, and its never exactly repeating trajectory can be seen as an analogy of what TUB calls: eternity-infinity or all that is called real.

Infinite hierarchical self-similar (fractal) patterns or geometrical structure (the proverbial order in chaos) emerges in a chaotic oscillation, when (for example) the position of the singularity in its state-space is plotted at regular temporal intervals. Now, suppose this oscillating singular point (the absolute cause of all causes) is continuously conscious of its entire oscillatory trajectory in all past infinite eternity. Then we (or our individual material consciousness) may exist as (different) frequencies in this continuous consciousness, such that our individual space-time reality is projected as a complex (chaotic) sequence of (quantum mechanical) events in time..
Quote:
105:1.3 The I AM is the Infinite; the I AM is also infinity. From the sequential, time viewpoint, all reality has its origin in the infinite I AM, whose solitary existence in past infinite eternity must be a finite creature’s premier philosophic postulate. The concept of the I AM connotes unqualified infinity, the undifferentiated reality of all that could ever be in all of an infinite eternity.

130:7.4 Time is the stream of flowing temporal events perceived by creature consciousness. time is a name given to the succession-arrangement whereby events are recognized and segregated. The universe of space is a time-related phenomenon as it is viewed from any interior position outside of the fixed abode of Paradise. The motion of time is only revealed in relation to something which does not move in space as a time phenomenon. In the universe of universes Paradise and its Deities transcend both time and space. On the inhabited worlds, human personality (indwelt and oriented by the Paradise Father’s spirit) is the only physically related reality which can transcend the material sequence of temporal events.
Finally, TUB indeed states that what we call time, is a sequence of fragments of the nonbeginning, nonending eternal continuum. And when we mature spiritually, we may begin to discern the underlying wholeness of events by (free will) adjustment (increase) of the time unit (or frequency) of our conscious perception of reality:
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118:1.8 The time unit of immaturity concentrates meaning-value into the present moment in such a way as to divorce the present of its true relationship to the not-present—the past-future. The time unit of maturity is proportioned so to reveal the co-ordinate relationship of past-present-future that the self begins to gain insight into the wholeness of events, begins to view the landscape of time from the panoramic perspective of broadened horizons, begins perhaps to suspect the nonbeginning, nonending eternal continuum, the fragments of which are called time.

I sincerely hope you understand some (or all) of the above and that it may contribute to your personal concept of time-space reality and (timeless) spirit reality. Personally, I find the insight quite enlightening.. :) (By the way, free-will is not explicitly represented; mathematical chaos is infinitely creative but completely deterministic. Thus, mathematical deterministic chaos can only be a limited analogy of reality)..

If you’re interested, here are some related threads.. :mrgreen:
http://forums.truthbook.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=3463
http://forums.truthbook.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=3633
http://forums.truthbook.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=3616
http://forums.truthbook.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3333
http://forums.truthbook.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=3234


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I am pretty familiar with all of that, except there were 2 point's that where in those quotes from the U.B that I have never really reflected on, and Im glad you posted them so I can get a chance to do so....

105:1.3 The I AM is the Infinite; the I AM is also infinity. From the sequential, time viewpoint, all reality has its origin in the infinite I AM.

I love that quote you put up because I think just speak's to how amazing god is as the "I AM".
There is alot in that little line to digest hahahah. Here is a quote that I think fit's with that one...

"The final dynamics of the cosmos have to do with the continual transfer of reality from potentiality to actuality. In theory, there may be an end to this metamorphosis, but in fact, such is impossible since the Potential and the Actual are both encircuited in the Original (the I AM), and this identification makes it forever impossible to place a limit on the developmental progression of the universe. Whatsoever is identified with the I AM can never find an end to progression since the actuality of the potentials of the I AM is absolute, and the potentiality of the actuals of the I AM is also absolute."

"On the inhabited worlds, human personality (indwelt and oriented by the Paradise Father’s spirit) is the only physically related reality which can transcend the material sequence of temporal events."


I like that quote too, there is a lot to digest just in that little line. I think for now I will stick with digesting those two lines ahahha. there is alot to reflect for me there :).

Im trying to think of something that relates in the U.B to what you are saying with the oscillation and I think I remember somethign that may......though it may not hahaha oh well I'll post it and hopefully it relates to this....I like this line because it gives sort of a physical picture of how our minds may be able to understand some of these deeper concepts....

."From a creature’s viewpoint, actuality is substance, potentiality is capacity. Actuality exists centermost and expands therefrom into peripheral infinity; potentiality comes inward from the infinity periphery and converges at the center of all things. Originality is that which first causes and then balances the dual motions of the cycle of reality metamorphosis from potentials to actuals and the potentializing of existing actuals."




However in the end though I humbly bow down from spending to much time trying to understand Eternity and infinity hahaha, but I will definitely give it some reflection this week :). Here are a couple quotes though I am just using for myself as a sign of what limitations we do have in this field.


"man’s intellectual comprehension capacity is exhausted by the maximum conception of the Supreme Being. Beyond the Supreme, concepts are increasingly names; less and less are they true designations of reality; more and more do they become the creature’s projection of finite understanding toward the superfinite."

"There is no language in the past, present, or future of Urantia adequate to express the reality of infinity or the infinity of reality. Man, a finite creature in an infinite cosmos, must content himself with distorted reflections and attenuated conceptions of that limitless, boundless, never-beginning, never-ending existence the comprehension of which is really beyond his ability."

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Hi Boomshuka, I think you spotted the exact right points there. :D Please keep us informed about your conclusions..


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boomshuka wrote:
[115:3.16] The final dynamics of the cosmos have to do with the continual transfer of reality from potentiality to actuality. In theory, there may be an end to this metamorphosis, but in fact, such is impossible since the Potential and the Actual are both encircuited in the Original (the I AM), and this identification makes it forever impossible to place a limit on the developmental progression of the universe. Whatsoever is identified with the I AM can never find an end to progression since the actuality of the potentials of the I AM is absolute, and the potentiality of the actuals of the I AM is also absolute. Always will actuals be opening up new avenues of the realization of hitherto impossible potentials — every human decision not only actualizes a new reality in human experience but also opens up a new capacity for human growth. The man lives in every child, and the morontia progressor is resident in the mature God-knowing man.
Nice quote, Boomshuka. :) I’ve thought about it. And I think it’s compatible with a deterministic chaos analogy of reality.. The Potential is every possible reality, whereas the Actual is (only) what is consciously realised (or experienced) by subinfinite beings (or the Supreme being).

The Actual may then be (only) a limited (finite/temporal/periodical) projection of one singular continuous infinite (chaotic) oscillation. Mathematically, this projection is a linear function of the oscillation. So, it can never produce more than a finite subset of the infinite dynamics of the original oscillation.

Anyway, to me it’s obvious that The Urantia Book portrays absolute reality as a continuous complex (chaotic) oscillation (either creating its own space, or within absolute space). Absolute Gravity (or the chaotic attractor of the system) dictates the shape of infinite reality.

And the singularity in this chaos analogy (God or Paradise) is both immanent and transcendent:
Quote:
11:8.1 The inescapable pull of gravity effectively grips all the worlds of all the universes of all space. Gravity is the all-powerful grasp of the physical presence of Paradise. Gravity is the omnipotent strand on which are strung the gleaming stars, blazing suns, and whirling spheres which constitute the universal physical adornment of the eternal God, who is all things, fills all things, and in whom all things consist.

11:9.2 Paradise is the geographic center of infinity; it is not a part of universal creation, not even a real part of the eternal Havona universe. We commonly refer to the central Isle as belonging to the divine universe, but it really does not. Paradise is an eternal and exclusive existence.

42:1.2 Matter – energy – for they are but diverse manifestations of the same cosmic reality, as a universe phenomenon is inherent in the Universal Father. “In him all things consist.” Matter may appear to manifest inherent energy and to exhibit self-contained powers, but the lines of gravity involved in the energies concerned in all these physical phenomena are derived from, and are dependent on, paradise. The ultimaton, the first measurable form of energy, has Paradise as its nucleus.


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HI ALL 8)

'' The ultimaton, the first measurable form of energy,
has Paradise as its nucleus.''

To be honest , Ive never really been able to understand
this Quote . Anyone care to comment on it ?
Bart ... or boomshuka ... anyone , will look forward to any insights .

Peace and Light


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coop wrote:
HI ALL 8)

'' The ultimaton, the first measurable form of energy,
has Paradise as its nucleus.''

To be honest , Ive never really been able to understand
this Quote . Anyone care to comment on it ?
Bart ... or boomshuka ... anyone , will look forward to any insights .

Peace and Light


Yea I never really took physics in highschool ahahha, soooo when it comes to the atomic world I rely on information from people like dr. chris halvorson and others.
I have an imaginitve idea as to what that mean's, but I duno...My best idea so far is that atom's ressemble the make up of the universe, and that paradise is the gravity center of all thing's no matter where they are.....but really I dont know...

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coop wrote:
... To be honest , Ive never really been able to understand
this Quote . Anyone care to comment on it ? ...

Hi Coop. 8) Here are 2 well known verses (and translations) form Vedic (Hindu) scriptures:
Quote:
Bhagavad-gita (7.7):

mattah parataram nanyat
kincid asti dhananjaya
mayi sarvam idam protam
sutre mani-gana iva


"O conqueror of wealth, there is no truth superior to Me [Krishna]. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread."

Svetasvatara Upanishad (3.8-9):

vedaham etam purusham mahantam
aditya-varnam tamasah parastat
tam eva viditvati mrityum eti
nanyah pantha vidyate 'yanaya
yasmat param naparam asti kincid
yasman naniyo no jyayo 'sti kincit
vriksha iva stabdho divi tishthaty ekas
tenedam purnam purushena sarvam


"I know that Supreme Personality of Godhead who is transcendental to all material conceptions of darkness. Only he who knows Him can transcend the bonds of birth and death. There is no way for liberation other than this knowledge of that Supreme Person."

"There is no truth superior to that Supreme Person, because He is the supermost. He is smaller than the smallest, and He is greater than the greatest. He is situated as a silent tree, and He illumines the transcendental sky, and as a tree spreads its roots, He spreads His extensive energies."
It is generally concluded from these verses that "the Supreme Absolute Truth is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is all-pervading by His multi-energies, both material and spiritual. He pervades this material world and yet is beyond it." (see: http://vedabase.net/bg/7/7/en1, also see Bagavad-gita 8.9: http://vedabase.net/bg/8/9/en1)

To me, the above verses seem equivalent to the following 2 passages from The Urantia Book:
Quote:
11:8.1 The inescapable pull of gravity effectively grips all the worlds of all the universes of all space. Gravity is the all-powerful grasp of the physical presence of Paradise. Gravity is the omnipotent strand on which are strung the gleaming stars, blazing suns, and whirling spheres which constitute the universal physical adornment of the eternal God, who is all things, fills all things, and in whom all things consist.

42:1.2 Matter – energy – for they are but diverse manifestations of the same cosmic reality, as a universe phenomenon is inherent in the Universal Father. “In him all things consist.” Matter may appear to manifest inherent energy and to exhibit self-contained powers, but the lines of gravity involved in the energies concerned in all these physical phenomena are derived from, and are dependent on, Paradise. The ultimaton, the first measurable form of energy, has Paradise as its nucleus.
So, both the Vedas and TUB agree that God is immanent (all and in all) as well as transcendent (beyond all). And to be all pervading, God must be smaller than the smallest atom. To be simultaneously transcendent, God must be greater than the greatest structure. One way to accomplish this, is by being the all pervading infinite oscillation of an infinitesimal point (or singularity).. :)


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I actuallly followed what you were saying there Bart. That is some really interesting thoughts, that I can say for sure I have never thought about.

soo god the father smaller than the smallest thing ever....and bigger than the biggest and in all things existing within god....hahaha I like that thought.....makes me think of the matrix hahah.

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coop wrote:
"The ultimaton, the first measurable form of energy,
has Paradise as its nucleus."

To be honest , Ive never really been able to understand
this Quote . Anyone care to comment on it ?
Hi Coop and all. :) One more thing.. A problem with my view of Paradise (the actual source of the physical universes, or the Unqualified Absolute, or the First Source and Center) as an infinite (chaotic) oscillation of a singular point in space, may seem to be TUB’s statement that: "Paradise is motionless, being the only stationary thing in the universe of universes" (0:4.12).

You may ask: How can motionlessness be compatible with this concept of a complex dynamical oscillation? The answer is simply a matter of perspective. Paradise is "the origin and destiny of all that is called real in eternity-infinity" (105:0.1). So, in fact, we must exist as some derived aspect of Paradise, or a projection of the infinite oscillation in time. Only Paradise is existential; i.e. the infinitesimal point or singularity or nothing (0:4.13). When we grow inwards, towards our (spiritual) destiny, our consciousness will ultimately arrive at the singularity (Paradise), which is all that exists. And since all movement is defined relative to something else, Paradise will appear to be motionless or stationary.

Indeed, TUB often assumes the inside perspective: "from his infinite being there flow the flood-streams of life, energy, and personality to all universes" (11:1.4). The outside/external/oscillatory perspective seems to be: "conceiving eternity-infinity as an almost limitless ellipse which is produced by one absolute cause" (105:0.1)..
Quote:
0:4.12 The Isle of Paradise— Paradise not otherwise qualified — is the Absolute of the material-gravity control of the First Source and Center. Paradise is motionless, being the only stationary thing in the universe of universes. The Isle of Paradise has a universe location but no position in space. This eternal Isle is the actual source of the physical universes — past, present, and future. The nuclear Isle of Light is a Deity derivative, but it is hardly Deity; neither are the material creations a part of Deity; they are a consequence.

0:4.13 Paradise is not a creator; it is a unique controller of many universe activities, far more of a controller than a reactor. Throughout the material universes Paradise influences the reactions and conduct of all beings having to do with force, energy, and power, but Paradise itself is unique, exclusive, and isolated in the universes. Paradise represents nothing and nothing represents Paradise. It is neither a force nor a presence; it is just Paradise.

11:1.4 The Father is always to be found at this central location. Did he move, universal pandemonium would be precipitated, for there converge in him at this residential center the universal lines of gravity from the ends of creation. Whether we trace the personality circuit back through the universes or follow the ascending personalities as they journey inward to the Father; whether we trace the lines of material gravity to nether Paradise or follow the insurging cycles of cosmic force; whether we trace the lines of spiritual gravity to the Eternal Son or follow the inward processional of the Paradise Sons of God; whether we trace out the mind circuits or follow the trillions upon trillions of celestial beings who spring from the Infinite Spirit — by any of these observations or by all of them we are led directly back to the Father’s presence, to his central abode. Here is God personally, literally, and actually present. And from his infinite being there flow the flood-streams of life, energy, and personality to all universes.

11:8.9 Paradise is the absolute source and the eternal focal point of all energy-matter in the universe of universes. The Unqualified Absolute is the revealer, regulator, and repository of that which has Paradise as its source and origin. The universal presence of the Unqualified Absolute seems to be equivalent to the concept of a potential infinity of gravity extension, an elastic tension of Paradise presence. This concept aids us in grasping the fact that everything is drawn inward towards Paradise. The illustration is crude but nonetheless helpful. It also explains why gravity always acts preferentially in the plane perpendicular to the mass, a phenomenon indicative of the differential dimensions of Paradise and the surrounding creations.

11:9.2 Paradise is the geographic center of infinity; it is not a part of universal creation, not even a real part of the eternal Havona universe. We commonly refer to the central Isle as belonging to the divine universe, but it really does not. Paradise is an eternal and exclusive existence.

105:0.1 To even high orders of universe intelligences infinity is only partially comprehensible, and the finality of reality is only relatively understandable. The human mind, as it seeks to penetrate the eternity-mystery of the origin and destiny of all that is called real, may helpfully approach the problem by conceiving eternity-infinity as an almost limitless ellipse which is produced by one absolute cause, and which functions throughout this universal circle of endless diversification, ever seeking some absolute and infinite potential of destiny.


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