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 Post subject: Subjective/Objective
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As is my habit I was listening to my UB CD before retiring, and in Paper 16 I heard this:

[16:9.8] Unselfish social consciousness must be, at bottom, a religious consciousness; that is, if it is
objective; otherwise it is a purely subjective philosophic abstraction and therefore devoid of love. Only a
God-knowing individual can love another person as he loves himself.


Well gosh! I was taught that being objective is a really hard thing to do, and that we are all pretty much hopelessly subjective... so how do you know if you are being objective when it could just be your own subjective opinion that you are objective, and nothing more?

It's late and I'm tired, so I'm going to think about this in the morning....

a.


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Hi Amy I've been arguing your position for a while to try to get non-believers to consider Subjective evidence of Supernatural events. Perhaps Objectivity in Subjective evidence is the recognition of the processes taking place and applying terms from our current conceptual frame of reference to describe and thus objectify those processes so as to be able to apply them in an objective fashion. Anyway tell me what you think. After you wake up. :smile: God's Peace to All.

Evidence to support the Christian Bible.
HERE
Post 574: Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:14 pm

Many non-believers make a Big Deal out of Objective evidence. When it reality ALL objective evidence in a manifestation of objectifying subjective evidence for the practical purpose of aiding US in our limited understanding of what exists around us.

Objective Reality comes from Subjective Reality.

Let me demonstrate:

Subjectively we KNOW that reality exists. Except Zzy doesn’t know this because he doesn’t accept my subjective reality O:) or the consensus of the “WE” who KNOW this to be TRUE: REALITY EXISTS.

We know it exists because we subjectively PRECIEVE THAT IT EXISTS. If “WE” didn’t exist would REALITY EXIST?

As far as “WE” are concerned. NO reality would NOT EXIST. Because WE wouldn’t be there to experience it. BUT we can SUBJECTIVELY CONJECTURE that REALITY WOULD EXIST even if “WE” didn’t. OH by the way “WE” is every last human being in existence, EVEN Zzy. Because even if HE refuses to accept “OUR” SUBJECTIVE REALITY, He’s still included in it weather he likes it or not. That’s just the way these LOGICAL things work.

So here we are NOT EXISTING and “WE” have NO IDEA weather REALITY REALLY EXISTS or NOT.

So “WHAT IF” Reality existed even though we didn’t? What would it be like. Would it be Objective or Subjective” WE can’t say because “WE” don’t exist. WELL THEN “WHO” (1st base) would define reality? Certainly NOT US.

So apparently weather reality is OBJECTIVE or SUBECTIVE as far as we are concerned depends on us. Well that’s SUBJECTIVE ISN’T IT? We individually decide what it is. I mean it sounds like Zzy is saying that when he says:
Quote:
My subjective determination is okay for ME.

Everyone else's subjective determination is okay for THEM.

I do not ask that anyone accept my subjective determination.

I do not feel obligated or inclined to accept the subjective determination of others.

It’s not a consensus. SO where does objective evidence and thus reality come from? Joer says it comes from Subjective reality. How can that be? OK consider this, it’s not real but it is logic and reason which some say Objective reality is based on:

We perceive something. We assume it’s REAL. BUT we all don’t see it the same way. So we develop ways to measure and determine what reality is. We call these ways OBJECTIVE because the units of measure remain the same. So now we apply these methods to the Reality we assume is REAL. Now we’ve subjectively objectified OUR REALITY. Now it is no longer WHAT IT “IS”. Now it “is” what it’s measured to be. So we’ve subjectively created a so called OBJECTIVE system to define Our reality to ourselves. BUT what happens in the process? We forget that REALITY IS WHAT IT IS. NOT WHAT IT’s measured to be. So now we reject the rest of our subjective perception and rely on the subjective system we created to interpret our reality and call it OBJECTIVE.

What’s going on here?

This is what is going on.

There is Absolute Reality

Because we perceive reality we never know for sure what it is. BUT we exist within it. For us it’s always colored (or interpreted) by our perception. So we invent ways in an attempt to standardize our perception to understand and perceive reality. We call those ways Objective.

So Objective Reality is just a conceptual framework we conceived of to fit onto reality in an attempt to help us understand reality further. BUT it is Subjectively invented and Subjective mind continues to analyze and intuit reality and steadily reinvents or adds to our Objective reality.

To deny Subjective Reality is to Deny the SOURCE of our understanding reality at ALL. IMHO

_________________
Joe - The more we discover how much we are Loved by God, the more we want to do God's Will.


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Some thoughts on what TUB teaches about subjectivity and objectivity:

Objectivity is reality based; subjectivity is individual interpreted reality -- it may be real or unreal; I can think my subjective interpretations represent objectivity.

My subjectivity is self-consciousness at best, ego-consciousness at worst.

My prayer is subjective, contacting with objective realities on spiritual levels. My religious experience is a purely spiritual subjective phenomenon.

My will enables my subjective consciousness to express itself objectively.

The highest objective reality is God whom I contact through the purely subjective experience of knowing, worshiping, realizing sonship with him.

Three inalienables of human consciousness:
The cosmic-mind-endowed, Adjuster-indwelt, personal creature possesses innate recognition-realization of energy reality, mind reality, and spirit reality. The will creature is thus equipped to discern the fact, the law, and the love of God. Aside from these three inalienables of human consciousness, all human experience is really subjective except that intuitive realization of validity attaches to the unification of these three universe reality responses of cosmic recognition. (16:9.1)


Last edited by lwatkins on Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:23 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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Ummmm... thanks Joer.

I think I'll write my Dad about this.

It's not just the subjective/objective part that that passage that's bothering me, it's also that religious consciousness must be objective, else it's a purely philosophical abstraction, devoid of love.

I'm no expert on love, in fact I'm not even sure I know what it is. What I do know is that I've seen next to nothing of it in this life as it is variously described.

Since God is love, and I know next to nothing of love, how can I be a God knowing person?

The passage goes on to say, "Only a God knowing individual can love another as he loves himself."

Well I'm not sure that I DO love myself. I suppose I basically approve of myself, but is that enough? Must one also be able to love oneself in order to love others, and more importantly God?

Therefore it might be that I'm just subjectively deluding myself. This is a most unsavory idea as I am sure you can appreciate.

a.


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. . . all personality reality is proportional to its divinity relationships. 613:06

The progressive comprehension of reality is the equivalent of approaching God. The finding of God, the consciousness of identity with reality, is the equivalent of the experiencing of self-completion--self-entirety, self-totality. The experiencing of total reality is the full realization of God, the finality of the God-knowing experience.2094:01

When man loses sight of the love of a personal God, the kingdom of God becomes merely the kingdom of good. p40:4 2:5.12


Last edited by Bonita on Sun Mar 22, 2009 9:28 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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Not sure it will answer your questions Amy,

But you touch on an important concept, that of loving one's self. Many of us on this crazy world grew up NOT loving ourselves, so the old axiom about loving others at least as much as one's self doesn't work. And it always seems to hold true that you treat others as you treat yourself.

After understanding that, and coming to know and appreciate Father thru revelation and meditation, love sprouted in my soul. It's an imperfect love, and I have more to realize of divine love than I can imagine, but it is still something I will always cherish and nurture. I learned love, like gardens, grow more perfect with watering and pruning.

No doubt love between creature and Creator becomes subjective when discussed, and doubtless it is unique in its individual expression. No one truly knows what another's love relation is with Deity, just you and Father.

When I came back from the war, I loved nothing and no one. That was forty years ago. It took all that time for the rage of ignorance to become love of life and family. Today I do love, albeit imperfectly. I expect this love will grow all the way to Paradise, all the way back to the source and creator of love.

What a trip, and what a challenge on a world where administrative mistakes perverted love's meaning and usages, where people have to relearn love from the top down, where love must battle with material want, carnal need and multiple defaults. Thank God for the recent revelations of the teachings on divine love, but it's taking me a while to impliment them because I am slow to learn about the ways and works of the divine affection. Regular worship is helping.


Much love, Rick


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Not sure it will answer your questions Amy,

But you touch on an important concept, that of loving one's self. Many of us on this crazy world grew up NOT loving ourselves, so the old axiom about loving others at least as much as one's self doesn't work. And it always seems to hold true that you treat others as you treat yourself.

After understanding that, and coming to know and appreciate Father thru revelation and meditation, love sprouted in my soul. It's an imperfect love, and I have more to realize of divine love than I can imagine, but it is still something I will always cherish and nurture. I learned love, like gardens, grow more perfect with watering and pruning.

No doubt love between creature and Creator becomes subjective when discussed, and doubtless it is unique in its individual expression. No one truly knows what another's love relation is with Deity, just you and Father.

When I came back from the war, I loved nothing and no one. That was forty years ago. It took all that time for the heathen rage of ignorance to become love of life and family. Today I do love, albeit imperfectly. I expect this love will grow all the way to Paradise, all the way back to the source and creator of love.

What a trip, and what a challenge on a world where administrative mistakes perverted love's meaning and usages, where people have to relearn love from the top down, where love must battle with material want, carnal need and multiple defaults. Thank God for the recent revelations of the teachings on divine love, but it's taking me a while to impliment them because I am slow to learn about the ways and works of the divine affection. Regular worship is helping.


Much love, Rick


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Iris wrote:
Amy,

Instead of thinking about subjectivity and objectivity think about reality and unreality. Most people's vision of the world is twisted backward. What they think is real is only the shadow of what is real.

. . . all personality reality is proportional to its divinity relationships. 613:06

The progressive comprehension of reality is the equivalent of approaching God. The finding of God, the consciousness of identity with reality, is the equivalent of the experiencing of self-completion--self-entirety, self-totality. The experiencing of total reality is the full realization of God, the finality of the God-knowing experience.2094:01

Once you know of reality, have experienced the presence of God, the act of service approaches reality as well because it is closer to God's will. Without this objectivity, social service is merely self-conscious, subjective, sentimental conscientious goodness, not God-conscious self-forgetfulness in the service of his will.

When man loses sight of the love of a personal God, the kingdom of God becomes merely the kingdom of good. p40:4 2:5.12

When Jesus taught about the Golden Rule (p1650), he described 6 progressive levels. Loving others as you love yourself is only level 3. You have to get beyond that level in order to be truly objective and not a slave to your subjective feelings of sympathy. In order to get beyond that level you must become God-knowing by developing a personal relationship with him; that is, become real.


Well thanks for trying, but none of that addresses my core issue. I can know all of this intellectually, and it still does nothing to clarify the root issue to me, and might as well be a subjective philosophical abstraction.

That issue, at bottom, is that I know virtually nothing of love. At least nothing in my experience corresponds with love as it's been described to me, and as I've stated elsewhere here, I did not grow up in anything like a loving home, with loving parents. Quite the opposite, and I feel that this is where the problem began.

I don't see that I've as yet overcome it.

a.


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rick warren wrote:
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Not sure it will answer your questions Amy,

But you touch on an important concept, that of loving one's self. Many of us on this crazy world grew up NOT loving ourselves, so the old axiom about loving others at least as much as one's self doesn't work. And it always seems to hold true that you treat others as you treat yourself.

After understanding that, and coming to know and appreciate Father thru revelation and meditation, love sprouted in my soul. It's an imperfect love, and I have more to realize of divine love than I can imagine, but it is still something I will always cherish and nurture. I learned love, like gardens, grow more perfect with watering and pruning...

What a trip, and what a challenge on a world where administrative mistakes perverted love's meaning and usages, where people have to relearn love from the top down, where love must battle with material want, carnal need and multiple defaults.


Hi Rick,

Well, had love sprouted in my soul I'm not at all sure I would recognize it as that. In some ways I treat others better than I treat myself. You make a good point in that the meaning of love has been widely perverted. Perhaps this is part of my problem.

The UB tells us that it is not good for us to be alone and isolated, and for most of my life that's just how I have been. There have been intimate relationships, albeit short ones, in which each time I found myself betrayed, deceived, used, and discarded.

Anymore I don't bother with such relationships, and at this point in life, having no carnal needs or desires, it's quite easy to keep myself apart from such relationships, notwithstanding that men are still after me. Recently even one from this board, asking if I were single. (sigh!)

Perhaps I am able to love, I do feel that I love my big sweet doggie very much. That's about as close to love as I have gotten. I regard him as my child, and love him in that way.

Without him I would be in a most ghastly state.

That said I have to ask myself what do I know of Divine love? Do I love the Father? It's an entirely different relationship, and I have to admit that I just don't know the answer. I'm pretty confused here.

a.


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Divine love, as I am beginning to understand and use it, is the realest of loves. And it's inside. The way I find it, and I'm not saying this is the right way for you or anyone Amy, is by setting aside daily time and place (alone down by the creek) for focus on Father, talk with and hug him, and Jesus and Mother of Nebadon. It's amazing, they don't talk yet, but they're personally present inside and I am beginning to think they enjoy affection! But divine love, for me, is not accidental, it had to be cultivated, maybe because I grew up not caring much about myself or anyone. Just pleasure. But it turns out worship is the greatest pleasure, communing with the God of the whole Universe, being friends. What kind of love is that when the Father of everyone stoops down for intimacy with wee human creatures? The trouble is God is so damned invisible. Faith has to fill in the vision, but the knowing of the reality of Father's love is there inside. Or I am delightfully deluded.


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p381:3 34:6.9 In every mortal there exists a dual nature: the inheritance of animal tendencies and the high urge of spirit endowment. During the short life you live on Urantia, these two diverse and opposing urges can seldom be fully reconciled; they can hardly be harmonized and unified; but throughout your lifetime the combined Spirit ever ministers to assist you in subjecting the flesh more and more to the leading of the Spirit. Even though you must live your material life through, even though you cannot escape the body and its necessities, nonetheless, in purpose and ideals you are empowered increasingly to subject the animal nature to the mastery of the Spirit. There truly exists within you a conspiracy of spiritual forces, a confederation of divine powers, whose exclusive purpose is to effect your final deliverance from material bondage and finite handicaps.


Last edited by Bonita on Sun Mar 22, 2009 9:30 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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Iris wrote:
You know, and I am absolutely certain you know this and have felt this, that God is calling you every single microsecond of your life.


Well Iris you may be right there, and were I not down with the flu and a bit depressed as well I might be able to feel that now. I do pray, and try to worship, though I'm not certain I'm doing it right.

Others seem far more certain of these things than I feel, and coming upon this passage threw me into a tailspin of doubt. Many times I've run into this with the UB. In one place it tells me I have no reason to worry about my spiritual status, that I'm doing just dandy, and then I run into something else that just scares the snot out of me!

I'm going to just write my Dad, he always has a good answer for these things.

a.


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"The progression of religious growth leads from stagnation through conflict to co-ordination, from insecurity to undoubting faith, from confusion of cosmic consciousness to unification of personality, from the temporal objective to the eternal, from the bondage of fear to the liberty of divine sonship." 1098:04-05


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Man's own personality awareness, self-consciousness, is also directly dependent on this very fact of innate other-awareness, this innate ability to recognize and grasp the reality of other personality, ranging from the human to the divine. 196:04

Man very early becomes conscious that he is not alone in the world or the universe. There develops a natural spontaneous self-consciousness of other-mindness in the environment of selfhood. Faith translates this natural experience into religion, the recognition of God as the reality—source, nature, and destiny—of other-mindness. But such a knowledge of God is ever and always a reality of personal experience. If God were not a personality, he could not become a living part of the real religious experience of a human personality.102:4.3


Last edited by Bonita on Sun Mar 22, 2009 9:31 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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Iris wrote:
Amy, you are doing just fine.


Gosh, ya think?

Iris wrote:
So, you're one of those who gets scared easily. . .


Well, not of earthly things at all, but this is a whole other matter, an eternal one and the only important thing in life.

Iris wrote:
Trust me, you've felt God within you and you've talked to him and he's answered, whether you're conscious of it or not.


Well I hope you are right, I really want to believe that!

Iris wrote:
Let me ask you this, have you ever felt that there was someone watching you, lovingly and very much involved with you, but you don't know who it is or where this "otherness" is exactly?


Errr.... no...

Iris wrote:
Are you ever aware of being in the company of an invisible, non-threatening someone or something else? I'm not talking about schizophrenic delusions or mystical illusions here. It's something quite real. When you're alone, do you feel completely alone, or do you think you have company?


Well no! Not at all! Apparently you are getting something I'm not, and I have to envy that. Now I'm really starting to worry!

I've been alone nearly all my life, and it's been very very hard. If I had what you described it would be an awful lot easier, but I've never had that, and I have no idea how to get it.

This just re-enforces my suspicion that I'm damaged goods and damaged beyond recovery.

a.


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Human self-consciousness implies the recognition of the reality of selves other than the conscious self and further implies that such awareness is mutual; that the self is known as it knows. This is shown in a purely human manner in man's social life. But you cannot become so absolutely certain of a fellow being's reality as you can of the reality of the presence of God that lives within you. 16:9.4


Last edited by Bonita on Sun Mar 22, 2009 9:32 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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