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 Post subject: Seed of Destruction
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The "seed of destruction" concept appears twice in the Revelation. I think we are all familiar with this reference to sin:

(611.7) 53:9.8 But for ages the seven prison worlds of spiritual darkness in Satania have constituted a solemn warning to all Nebadon, eloquently and effectively proclaiming the great truth "that the way of the transgressor is hard"; "that within every sin is concealed the seed of its own destruction"; that "the wages of sin is death."

But I was surprised to find this reference as well:

(1457.2) 132:1.3 Unless the moral insight and the spiritual attainment of mankind are proportionately augmented, the unlimited advancement of a purely materialistic culture may eventually become a menace to civilization. A purely materialistic science harbors within itself the potential seed of the destruction of all scientific striving, for this very attitude presages the ultimate collapse of a civilization which has abandoned its sense of moral values and has repudiated its spiritual goal of attainment.

It seems ominous to me. What exactly is a purely materialistic science and how does it inevitably lead to destruction of ALL scientific striving and the collapse of civilization? Is there a way to recognize this phenomenon in today's world, if it is indeed happening? It is written that at the time of the writing of the Revelation the higher scientific minds were not wholly materialistic. Is this still true today?

(2076.9) 195:6.4 At the time of this writing the worst of the materialistic age is over; the day of a better understanding is already beginning to dawn. The higher minds of the scientific world are no longer wholly materialistic in their philosophy, but the rank and file of the people still lean in that direction as a result of former teachings. But this age of physical realism is only a passing episode in man's life on earth. Modern science has left true religion — the teachings of Jesus as translated in the lives of his believers — untouched. All science has done is to destroy the childlike illusions of the misinterpretations of life.


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 Post subject: Re: Seed of Destruction
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Go no further in your research than the diversity of the Hebrew people (peoples). How do we protect all varieties of corn, is this possible in a world with a supposive genetically superior corn-culture? Well, but the Hebrew people, before they left AEgypt, were forced to scour the fields for every kind of grain that could be eaten, having with them therefore a decent collection. That scientifical materialism, on the other hand, promotes things like "winning the most $$", gambling and addiction, or narrow means that cannot accomplish your actual goal.

In striving for cash crops, we have created idols of certain seed varieties, that become part of an industrially-civilized pattern, that is implented at the cost of diversity. Sooner or later, the variety of corn will become ubiquitized, and the "genetic pools" for each species become too narrow to support continuous evolution. The materialism of science predictates a value on certain conditions, that are rewarded by the marketplace-system: larger volumes of fruit and seed-protein mostly. This attitude of "bigger is better" within the research field, places bizarre favouritism that hurts what we are dealing with, in terms of the true wealth, the basis for life from which new possibilities are to arise.

It is the covetousness of Midas, by gaining one thing at the expense of all other goals, you may overshadow or even destroy the basis of that which you seek to uphold.

Scientific materialism, in the western motif of manifest destiny, gives us the practical realisation, one possibility of how man (civilization) may indeed "move mountains". However, it can create the blindness, the failure to incorporate, undue eviction of indigenous culture, and the Ballite covetousness "ownership of the material tabernacle". It does not compare with physical skill, of inherent wisdom, and creates a culture of switches and triggers that predictate consequences. Scientific materialism, even when you look at monota, creates a false religion of worshipping "the body of the First Source, rather than who he is." It neglects the mandate of, in becoming like the universal father, "one must eventually divest one's self of all material form, even Paradise."

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 Post subject: Re: Seed of Destruction
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To be clear, I don't believe the term "purely materialistic science" has anything to do with greed or profits. That would be "materialism", which puts an psychological preference on material possessions (things) over spiritual values. Even so, I admit there is some overlap between the two words.

It seems to me that the word "materialistic", as used in the two references I cited, has more to do with worldliness, the mundane, temporal and physical level of reality. A purely materialistic science would naturally exclude the reality levels of philosophy and religion (spirit).

If purely materialistic science excludes philosophy and religion, and by doing so it destroys all scientific striving, can we say that philosophy and religion probably play a role in scientific striving?


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 Post subject: Re: Seed of Destruction
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Religion plays and advisory role to civilization, governance, in all the subjects that tUB recommends children aught to know. I say this because the human perception can become limited by the intellectual/rational world view. Yet the human soul always strives for perfection. So imagine you do not have all the facts, but you accept this: "Matter is the basis for the cosmos, and there is practically nothing beyond the cosmos". Gradually, your need to lay hold of the truth, of the personality of God, will lead you to challenge/affirm your previously held views. The opportunities that God would share with you to reveal something more than the grand universe, are few and affect your decision making abilities. You become either, "a wise administrator" or you will eventuate as a shell of a person, "one with a dead centre of indecision", to be removed from the roll calls.

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 Post subject: Re: Seed of Destruction
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SEla_Kelly wrote:
Religion plays and advisory role to civilization, governance, in all the subjects that tUB recommends children aught to know. I say this because the human perception can become limited by the intellectual/rational world view. Yet the human soul always strives for perfection. So imagine you do not have all the facts, but you accept this: "Matter is the basis for the cosmos, and there is practically nothing beyond the cosmos". Gradually, your need to lay hold of the truth, of the personality of God, will lead you to challenge/affirm your previously held views. The opportunities that God would share with you to reveal something more than the grand universe, are few and affect your decision making abilities. You become either, "a wise administrator" or you will eventuate as a shell of a person, "one with a dead centre of indecision", to be removed from the roll calls.


Stephen,
When you use quote marks in your posts, could you please provide the source and context of the quotes? For example, you seem to be talking about God revealing the grand universe and that, somehow, resulting in one eventuating as a shell of a person, "one with a dead centre of indecision". But when the UB talks about the dead center of indecision, it is discussing the conditions of effective prayer.

Quote:
9. Conditions of Effective Prayer
91:9.1 (1002.6) If you would engage in effective praying, you should bear in mind the laws of prevailing petitions:


Quote:
91:9.5 (1002.10) 4. You must make a wholehearted choice of the divine will. You must obliterate the dead center of indecision.


These do not seem to be related. It's almost like you find a quote in the UB and build your own philosophy around it and post it as something for our study group to consider. But it's really not helpful when you do it that way.


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 Post subject: Re: Seed of Destruction
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SEla_Kelly wrote:
Yet the human soul always strives for perfection. So imagine you do not have all the facts, but you accept this: "Matter is the basis for the cosmos, and there is practically nothing beyond the cosmos". Gradually, your need to lay hold of the truth, of the personality of God, will lead you to challenge/affirm your previously held views. The opportunities that God would share with you to reveal something more than the grand universe, are few and affect your decision making abilities. You become either, "a wise administrator" or you will eventuate as a shell of a person, "one with a dead centre of indecision", to be removed from the roll calls.


Are you saying that a purely materialistic science ignores the soul which is always striving for perfection? And also, that scientific striving is also a striving for perfection? That sounds right to me. If science is purely about physical matter it has nowhere to go besides more physical matter, no purpose other than physical, and that will surely kill off the soul.

I've been struggling to come up with an example of a purely materialistic science but can't think of one. It seems that most, if not all, of our sciences are philosophically driven in some way (rightly or wrongly). Do you think that is true?


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 Post subject: Re: Seed of Destruction
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well i think the purely 'mechanistic' viewpoint is ultimately depressingly fatalistic towards a "we can't know and it doesn't matter" conclusion that would be slowly suicidal...all the while blind to the fact that it's a philosophy and not science to start with. whereas some foundations of science like cause and effect, order from chaos and grand unified theories all have their roots in, and lead to, higher levels of thought...and ideals. and the source of all the ideals that drive civilization forward is Spirit.


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 Post subject: Re: Seed of Destruction
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Makalu wrote:
well i think the purely 'mechanistic' viewpoint is ultimately depressingly fatalistic towards a "we can't know and it doesn't matter" conclusion that would be slowly suicidal...all the while blind to the fact that it's a philosophy and not science to start with.


Interesting. Are you saying that all science is a philosophy to start with? Also, are you saying that "purely materialistic" and "mechanistic" are describing the same thing?

I've been wondering if the laws of physics and mathematics are purely materialistic, whereas the striving to understand and utilize those laws require a philosophic approach.


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 Post subject: Re: Seed of Destruction
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katroofjebus wrote:

Interesting. Are you saying that all science is a philosophy to start with? Also, are you saying that "purely materialistic" and "mechanistic" are describing the same thing?

I've been wondering if the laws of physics and mathematics are purely materialistic, whereas the striving to understand and utilize those laws require a philosophic approach.


yes i think of a purely materialistic science as being mechanistic...but no not saying that science is philosophy. the "problem" is that there's no science without a scientist (person) and all people have some sort of philosophy/world view. it's touched upon in this paragraph previous to the one you posted:

Quote:
132:1.2 (1457.1) The standard of true values must be looked for in the spiritual world and on divine levels of eternal reality. To an ascending mortal all lower and material standards must be recognized as transient, partial, and inferior. The scientist, as such, is limited to the discovery of the relatedness of material facts. Technically, he has no right to assert that he is either materialist or idealist, for in so doing he has assumed to forsake the attitude of a true scientist since any and all such assertions of attitude are the very essence of philosophy.


so i guess i see it as mostly warning about recognizing the distinctions and maintaining a value-based balance between science, philosophy and religion....


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 Post subject: Re: Seed of Destruction
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These do not seem to be related. It's almost like you find a quote in the UB and build your own philosophy around it and post it as something for our study group to consider. But it's really not helpful when you do it that way.


More than not helpful.

What I think you do, Sela_Kelly, is attempt to blend your previous and probably current religious and "philosophic" ideas and viewpoint with the revelation of the UB. It won't work. You may be earnest and sincere, but anyone reading your posts ought to see the confusion that comes from your attempts. You're in the comfort zone of your imaginative cosmology so you don't do the work of verifying your sources, and reading the UB with a clear and open mind. You know their is nothing else in the world like it.


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 Post subject: Re: Seed of Destruction
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Please do not post criticism directed at other people's manner of thinking or writing on my threads. Please only comment on the subject matter and direct personal feelings and emotions concerning other people to private conversations. This is not a psychotherapy session where you can air your grievances at one another. All topics that have been derailed on this forum start with insults. The first insult contains the seed of destruction. Personally, I'm not done exploring this topic and would like it to stay alive for just a little longer. Thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: Seed of Destruction
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Makalu wrote:
yes i think of a purely materialistic science as being mechanistic...but no not saying that science is philosophy. the "problem" is that there's no science without a scientist (person) and all people have some sort of philosophy/world view. it's touched upon in this paragraph previous to the one you posted:

Quote:
132:1.2 (1457.1) The standard of true values must be looked for in the spiritual world and on divine levels of eternal reality. To an ascending mortal all lower and material standards must be recognized as transient, partial, and inferior. The scientist, as such, is limited to the discovery of the relatedness of material facts. Technically, he has no right to assert that he is either materialist or idealist, for in so doing he has assumed to forsake the attitude of a true scientist since any and all such assertions of attitude are the very essence of philosophy.


I can agree with that. It's the creativity of the mind which inspires the scientist to discover the relatedness of facts (science) and it's in those discoveries that lie value. I think it is written elsewhere that value is hidden within facts and that growth is the discovery of new meanings of old facts. So, it seems that a purely materialistic science is essentially impossible unless you're a machine, a computer.

So what is a "true scientist"? And also, how does this all relate to civilization? The seed of destruction within a "purely materialistic science" causes the collapse of civilization. I still can't imagine what that is. I look at the various collapsed civilizations throughout history, and even in modern day, and I don't recognize a "purely materialistic science" as the seed of their destruction. Is the lack of scientific striving a symptom of a lack of creativity? I'm not connecting the dots, but maybe I'm making it more complicated than it really is?


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 Post subject: Re: Seed of Destruction
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Who died and left you in charge Bonita? Gate keeping much? Not your job as you remind others all the time here. Your topic? I asked you 5 times on one topic of mine to get focused on the topic or be quiet...you did neither!!! But did include plenty of insults and sarcasm.

What a sanctimonious pile of rubbish. You accuse a new poster here falsely and emotionally insult them with your imperious demands and personal criticism of your own...how very hypocritical. Poppycock (by the way, a saying originated by Bonita). The audience does not belong to you. Neither does the discussion.

Talk about needing psychotherapy...you block large parts of the "conversations" you comment on. How healthy is that? You refuse to even read what others write here. Perhaps you should just block gizmo too...rather than publicly insult him/her and make demands of others? This squabble is another of your own making.

:roll: :-s


Last edited by fanofVan on Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:54 am +0000, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Seed of Destruction
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katroofjebus wrote:
Makalu wrote:
yes i think of a purely materialistic science as being mechanistic...but no not saying that science is philosophy. the "problem" is that there's no science without a scientist (person) and all people have some sort of philosophy/world view. it's touched upon in this paragraph previous to the one you posted:

Quote:
132:1.2 (1457.1) The standard of true values must be looked for in the spiritual world and on divine levels of eternal reality. To an ascending mortal all lower and material standards must be recognized as transient, partial, and inferior. The scientist, as such, is limited to the discovery of the relatedness of material facts. Technically, he has no right to assert that he is either materialist or idealist, for in so doing he has assumed to forsake the attitude of a true scientist since any and all such assertions of attitude are the very essence of philosophy.


I can agree with that. It's the creativity of the mind which inspires the scientist to discover the relatedness of facts (science) and it's in those discoveries that lie value. I think it is written elsewhere that value is hidden within facts and that growth is the discovery of new meanings of old facts. So, it seems that a purely materialistic science is essentially impossible unless you're a machine, a computer.

So what is a "true scientist"? And also, how does this all relate to civilization? The seed of destruction within a "purely materialistic science" causes the collapse of civilization. I still can't imagine what that is. I look at the various collapsed civilizations throughout history, and even in modern day, and I don't recognize a "purely materialistic science" as the seed of their destruction. Is the lack of scientific striving a symptom of a lack of creativity? I'm not connecting the dots, but maybe I'm making it more complicated than it really is?


I believe the UB says that meaning is found in facts and value is derived by meanings.

100:2.2 (1095.6) Spiritual growth is first an awakening to needs, next a discernment of meanings, and then a discovery of values. The evidence of true spiritual development consists in the exhibition of a human personality motivated by love, activated by unselfish ministry, and dominated by the wholehearted worship of the perfection ideals of divinity. And this entire experience constitutes the reality of religion as contrasted with mere theological beliefs.

100:3.4 (1097.1) Meaning is something which experience adds to value; it is the appreciative consciousness of values. An isolated and purely selfish pleasure may connote a virtual devaluation of meanings, a meaningless enjoyment bordering on relative evil. Values are experiential when realities are meaningful and mentally associated, when such relationships are recognized and appreciated by mind.

100:4.1 (1097.5) Religious living is devoted living, and devoted living is creative living, original and spontaneous. New religious insights arise out of conflicts which initiate the choosing of new and better reaction habits in the place of older and inferior reaction patterns. New meanings only emerge amid conflict; and conflict persists only in the face of refusal to espouse the higher valuesconnoted in superior meanings.

100:4.4 (1098.1) In physical life the senses tell of the existence of things; mind discovers the reality of meanings; but the spiritual experience reveals to the individual the true values of life. These high levels of human living are attained in the supreme love of God and in the unselfish love of man. If you love your fellow men, you must have discovered their values. Jesus loved men so much because he placed such a high value upon them. You can best discover values in your associates by discovering their motivation. If someone irritates you, causes feelings of resentment, you should sympathetically seek to discern his viewpoint, his reasons for such objectionable conduct. If once you understand your neighbor, you will become tolerant, and this tolerance will grow into friendship and ripen into love.*


Materialistic science would be devoid of consideration perhaps of the greatest good for the greatest number. It might be created for and applied as the means of war, destruction, and domination. Even planetary wide self destruction. Is economics science? For the greed and self importance of the dominating class can destroy economic systems and wreak havoc with death by chaos and systemic poverty.

When the science of profit controls the science of governance and the science of research and manufacturing and social priorities are in the hands of materialists, then certainly can such a civilization collapse by its irrelevancy to reality. It is unsustainable and carries the seed of self destruction.


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katroofjebus wrote:

I can agree with that. It's the creativity of the mind which inspires the scientist to discover the relatedness of facts (science) and it's in those discoveries that lie value. I think it is written elsewhere that value is hidden within facts and that growth is the discovery of new meanings of old facts. So, it seems that a purely materialistic science is essentially impossible unless you're a machine, a computer.

So what is a "true scientist"? And also, how does this all relate to civilization? The seed of destruction within a "purely materialistic science" causes the collapse of civilization. I still can't imagine what that is. I look at the various collapsed civilizations throughout history, and even in modern day, and I don't recognize a "purely materialistic science" as the seed of their destruction. Is the lack of scientific striving a symptom of a lack of creativity? I'm not connecting the dots, but maybe I'm making it more complicated than it really is?


yeah i read it as simply saying the civilization has collapsed because it has abandoned moral values and spiritual goals as an outcome of the mechanistic viewpoint (which unintentionally stifles its own scientific inquiry). and that's a relatively new conflict brought about by industrialization and the scientific advances so not to be found in history. i think the dangers and weaknesses of mechanistic materialism is elaborated on pretty well in paper 195...


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