Urantia Book Forum

Urantia Book Discussion Board : Study Group
It is currently Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:14 am +0000

All times are UTC - 7 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 108 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next
Author Message
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 3281
As previously stated, social and cultural progress begins with the experience of evolutionary religion and evolutionary religion - the impulse and response to worship - is the absolute very beginning of humanity itself. It is the definitive line between animal and human. Humans do not invent or discover religion sometime during the history and development of humanity. Humanity is defined by the very moment of the impulse and response of evolutionary religious experience!! Our species begins by religious experience. And that moment is the very purpose and exclusive purpose of all prior evolution related to solar systems and planetary creation and geological and atmospheric evolution and all living cellular, plant, and animal life and evolution.

That moment, reached here on our world about 1 million years ago, was the end of a great success and the beginning of the next phase of planetary destiny! The Mortal Epochs of Time had finally begun on Urantia with Andon and Fonta!

85:7.1 Nature worship may seem to have arisen naturally and spontaneously in the minds of primitive men and women, and so it did; but there was operating all this time in these same primitive minds the sixth adjutant spirit, which had been bestowed upon these peoples as a directing influence of this phase of human evolution. And this spirit was constantly stimulating the worship urge of the human species, no matter how primitive its first manifestations might be. The spirit of worship gave definite origin to the human impulse to worship, notwithstanding that animal fear motivated the expression of worshipfulness, and that its early practice became centered upon objects of nature.

85:7.2 You must remember that feeling, not thinking, was the guiding and controlling influence in all evolutionary development. To the primitive mind there is little difference between fearing, shunning, honoring, and worshiping.

85:7.3 When the worship urge is admonished and directed by wisdom—meditative and experiential thinking—it then begins to develop into the phenomenon of real religion. When the seventh adjutant spirit, the spirit of wisdom, achieves effective ministration, then in worship man begins to turn away from nature and natural objects to the God of nature and to the eternal Creator of all things natural.

86:1.1 Aside from the natural worship urge, early evolutionary religion had its roots of origin in the human experiences of chance—so-called luck, commonplace happenings. Primitive man was a food hunter. The results of hunting must ever vary, and this gives certain origin to those experiences which man interprets as good luck and bad luck. Mischance was a great factor in the lives of men and women who lived constantly on the ragged edge of a precarious and harassed existence.

86:2.2 The struggle for life is so painful that certain backward tribes even yet howl and lament over each new sunrise. Primitive man constantly asked, "Who is tormenting me?" Not finding a material source for his miseries, he settled upon a spirit explanation. And so was religion born of the fear of the mysterious, the awe of the unseen, and the dread of the unknown. Nature fear thus became a factor in the struggle for existence first because of chance and then because of mystery.

86:2.4 Man naturally tends to believe that which he deems best for him, that which is in his immediate or remote interest; self-interest largely obscures logic. The difference between the minds of savage and civilized men is more one of content than of nature, of degree rather than of quality.

(Excuse me...but HAHAHAHAHAHHAHA!)

86:2.5 But to continue to ascribe things difficult of comprehension to supernatural causes is nothing less than a lazy and convenient way of avoiding all forms of intellectual hard work. Luck is merely a term coined to cover the inexplicable in any age of human existence; it designates those phenomena which men are unable or unwilling to penetrate. Chance is a word which signifies that man is too ignorant or too indolent to determine causes. Men regard a natural occurrence as an accident or as bad luck only when they are destitute of curiosity and imagination, when the races lack initiative and adventure. Exploration of the phenomena of life sooner or later destroys man's belief in chance, luck, and so-called accidents, substituting therefor a universe of law and order wherein all effects are preceded by definite causes. Thus is the fear of existence replaced by the joy of living.

86:2.6 The savage looked upon all nature as alive, as possessed by something. Civilized man still kicks and curses those inanimate objects which get in his way and bump him. Primitive man never regarded anything as accidental; always was everything intentional. To primitive man the domain of fate, the function of luck, the spirit world, was just as unorganized and haphazard as was primitive society. Luck was looked upon as the whimsical and temperamental reaction of the spirit world; later on, as the humor of the gods.

86:4.2 The dream origin of the belief in a future existence explains the tendency always to imagine unseen things in the terms of things seen. And presently this new dream-ghost-future-life concept began effectively to antidote the death fear associated with the biologic instinct of self-preservation.

86:4.3 Early man was also much concerned about his breath, especially in cold climates, where it appeared as a cloud when exhaled. The breath of life was regarded as the one phenomenon which differentiated the living and the dead. He knew the breath could leave the body, and his dreams of doing all sorts of queer things while asleep convinced him that there was something immaterial about a human being. The most primitive idea of the human soul, the ghost, was derived from the breath-dream idea-system.

86:4.4 Eventually the savage conceived of himself as a double—body and breath. The breath minus the body equaled a spirit, a ghost. While having a very definite human origin, ghosts, or spirits, were regarded as superhuman. And this belief in the existence of disembodied spirits seemed to explain the occurrence of the unusual, the extraordinary, the infrequent, and the inexplicable.

86:4.5 The primitive doctrine of survival after death was not necessarily a belief in immortality. Beings who could not count over twenty could hardly conceive of infinity and eternity; they rather thought of recurring incarnations.

86:4.6 The orange race was especially given to belief in transmigration and reincarnation. This idea of reincarnation originated in the observance of hereditary and trait resemblance of offspring to ancestors. The custom of naming children after grandparents and other ancestors was due to belief in reincarnation. Some later-day races believed that man died from three to seven times. This belief (residual from the teachings of Adam about the mansion worlds), and many other remnants of revealed religion, can be found among the otherwise absurd doctrines of twentieth-century barbarians.

(Please excuse me again....Hahahahahahha!)

86:4.7 Early man entertained no ideas of hell or future punishment. The savage looked upon the future life as just like this one, minus all ill luck. Later on, a separate destiny for good ghosts and bad ghosts— heaven and hell—was conceived. But since many primitive races believed that man entered the next life just as he left this one, they did not relish the idea of becoming old and decrepit. The aged much preferred to be killed before becoming too infirm.

8)


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:11 pm +0000
Posts: 428
fanofVan wrote:
And the argument misses the point of this topic and has become a real distraction. So I will ask one more time that we return Evolutionary Religion as it pertains to planetary and social progress through the Mortal Epochs....for now. Please.


I'd like to point out, Bradly, that you included "Religious Experience" in your topic title. How exactly are you defining religious experience? Perhaps you would expound on how religious experience "pertains to planetary and social progress through the Mortal Epochs"?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 3281
katroofjebus wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
And the argument misses the point of this topic and has become a real distraction. So I will ask one more time that we return Evolutionary Religion as it pertains to planetary and social progress through the Mortal Epochs....for now. Please.


I'd like to point out, Bradly, that you included "Religious Experience" in your topic title. How exactly are you defining religious experience? Perhaps you would expound on how religious experience "pertains to planetary and social progress through the Mortal Epochs"?


Me here: Below is the first and introductory post for this topic. I hope it helps you understand kat.


fanofVan wrote:
I am hoping this topic trends in two distinct directions: first is how religion progresses socially through the mortal epochs of time and the profound effects on culture and planetary progress that socialized, evolutionary religion has on our progress as a whole population. This topic will also, naturally, include the impact of revelational or revelationary religion on planetary/cultural evolution, both before the endowment of the Son's Spirit of Truth and flood of Thought Adjusters and after. We can examine our unique history on Urantia considering the rebellion and default and that of a more normal or typical world but in either case, the evolution of religious experience certainly provides a lens upon social experience and progress too.

The second direction has to do with the personal and individual religious experience prior to the revelational relationship of the Thought Adjuster's ministry in the mind of the religionist; or, what is the human religious experience prior to the arrival of the TA? Regarding this particular aspect, here's a link to another and contemporary topic on that specific issue:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5603

I'm going to allow that topic to progress further before taking it any further here except in very general terms, and will instead begin with consideration of the effects of religion itself of planetary social evolution!

We are told that a world is not consider "populated" until that moment in biological evolution when the combined efforts of the Life Carriers and Adjutant Mind Spirits are cooperatively successful in connecting all 7 adjutants to the mind of a being that prior to that connection is considered animal mind only. Human mind does not originate or begin or receive recognition in the universe until the Adjutants of Worship and Wisdom are both functionally connected to mind. This moment takes millions of years of effort on every material, evolutionary world by these two cooperative teams (and others) who join forces and work together to exclusively and directly give origin and bring life to 7 trillion worlds in the 7 Super Universes that are each unique in the biological life forms and the evolutionary track of those life forms to evolve eventually into human/mortal habitation.

This evolution is not accidental or haphazard. It follows patterns but is not duplicated or cloned or copied with any precision or intent either. There may be archetypical similarities in some worlds but there will always be individualized uniqueness and distinctions in all 7 trillion worlds as well....like snowflakes and crystals...the same ingredients and forces still result in an original expression every time. For example, we are told that people are universally upright bi-pedals and the protoplasmic cell is the biologic unit of life. All of the 7 Super Universes in time and space are evolutionary. Only the Central Isle of Paradise and Havona are perfect and non-evolutionary. The rest of creation evolves by the function of cause and effect and the free will choices of its creators and administrators and inhabitants.

Evolution requires free will and is a function of cause and effect and the realization and actualization of what was once potential only. The realization of potential always results in more and greater potential for further realization. This is a self perpetuating feedback system with theoretically unlimited future progression. As it is given and managed in time, evolution based on free will choice results in experiential wisdom....there is a progressive, enlightening, improving, experientially based wisdom gained over time that is reflected in the experience AND the expression of free will choice.

This is a critical element and fact to consider. Free will does not lead to random outcomes that result in regression or decline and yet free will is free indeed. No matter how ignorant or primitive or savage or barbaric or inexperienced are any beings in the universes of time, still does evolution lead, eventually, to progress!! How can this be so? If free will is free and mistakes are inherent to this process of free will choice, then how can it be perpetually and predictably progressive???? That is the crux of the discussion to come I hope. Our creators do not fail to achieve light and life and always successfully complete all the mortal epochs of time on material evolutionary worlds but neither do they supercede or abrogate or over rule free will once a world is deemed inhabited. Evolution succeeds...by free will. Rather amazing to contemplate.

There are scientists and philosophers that argue that we do not have free will. They claim that all of us "choose" according to biological and social and genetic tendencies and patterns that are auto-responses that are learned or innate and preclude true freedom in choosing. We know this is false. However, the theory is not without merit. There are those who repeat choices over and over by unthinking habits or preferences and those who repeat responses and choices to stimuli that are learned or mimicked of others, and those whose only motivation in choice is self pleasure and gratification, and those that are driven by superstition, ignorance, and fear....rather than choices made by thoughtful consideration and the discernment of outcomes and repercussions and consequences which lead to self correcting adjustment to our choices over time to improve the experience, results, and trends of our choices. But either way, we ARE choosing. We choose what we choose but we also choose why we choose what we choose...we choose our motives and intentions and priorities and our strategies and our tactics and our timing.

All of those choices deliver results. Does everyone learn and adjust? Well no.....and those who do learn and adjust do so very personally and uniquely and not uniformly or predictably. So how then does social and planetary progress come about. It comes by the function of universe reality!! The choices made which do not relate to or result from or contribute to reality do not have any lasting effect on reality. Only those choices made which recognize reality and are a true experience and expression OF reality have an affect or causation of effect. That which is unreal does not and cannot effect reality.

So when we experience and express something/anything that comes from or is related to reality, there is an effect which is permanent and even eternal....a contribution and experience that adds meaning and value to the totality of reality - personally, socially, and universally. Free choices without such meaning and value evaporate into nothingness. In this way does free will become only progressive in its effects over time. The truth, beauty, and goodness of free will choice accumulates, aggregates, and integrates into the totality of experiential wisdom and progress while all other free will choice merely dissipates and evaporates and remains without meaning or value or effect.



The above is simply my understanding of the teachings and text of the UB and the expression of my own experience with free will. I look forward to yours!!

Some pre-reading is recommended for the discussion to come:

Papers 32, 36, 49, 52, and 65!

8) Bradly

I look forward to your comments and questions.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 3281
katroofjebus wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
And the argument misses the point of this topic and has become a real distraction. So I will ask one more time that we return Evolutionary Religion as it pertains to planetary and social progress through the Mortal Epochs....for now. Please.


I'd like to point out, Bradly, that you included "Religious Experience" in your topic title. How exactly are you defining religious experience? Perhaps you would expound on how religious experience "pertains to planetary and social progress through the Mortal Epochs"?


Actually I have expounded quite a bit on the topic and provided many quotes related thereto...still more to come! It's a big topic. Social change comes by the individuality and the totality of personal religious experience and Part III of the UB includes an exhaustive presentation of Urantia's progress through the Mortal Epochs and the many unique experiences of our world in its progressive story of socialization. All of this secular and scientific progress is inextricably linked to evolutionary and revelational religion of the person and the group.

Sorry if the title seems less than descriptive of the topic...but the description of the topic in its introduction seems clear enough. Or I think so anyway!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:11 pm +0000
Posts: 428
fanofVan wrote:
Me here: Below is the first and introductory post for this topic. I hope it helps you understand kat.


Well, you did mention religious experience over 45 times. How exactly are you defining it going forward? Or is it no longer a part of the discussion. Help me understand.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 3281
katroofjebus wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
Me here: Below is the first and introductory post for this topic. I hope it helps you understand kat.


Well, you did mention religious experience over 45 times. How exactly are you defining it going forward? Or is it no longer a part of the discussion. Help me understand.


Your frustration and impatience with me is palpable...and distracting and helpful to no one. I did not and do not define religious experience. I have described the topic and its parameters the best I know how. If insufficient I suggest you move on to a topic with greater clarity and interest. So far here, you seem to have an agenda....of domination and disruption and dissatisfaction with me personally. Enough already.

Keyword search for: "religious experience"

https://truthbook.com/search/UBParagrap ... rch=Search

Perhaps you might find a suitable definition in these 100 quotes and then might apply them to the topic of planetary progress from the times of Andon and Fonta to today and onward to Light and Life? Such is my hope.


Last edited by fanofVan on Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:52 pm +0000, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:11 pm +0000
Posts: 428
fanofVan wrote:
Your frustration and impatience with me is palpable...and distracting and helpful to no one. I did not and do not define religious experience. I have described the topic and its parameters the best I know how. If insufficient I suggest you move on to a topic with greater clarity and interest. So far here, you seem to have an agenda....of domination and disruption and dissatisfaction with me personally. Enough already.

Keyword search for: "religious experience"

Perhaps you might find a suitable definition in these 100 quotes and then might apply them to the topic of planetary progress from the times of Andon and Fonta to today and onward to Light and Life? Such is my hope.


Firstly I'd like to say that I'm sorry you have those emotions. I am not here to harass you, I just find your writing overcomplicated and sometimes obscure and in need of some kind of clarification in order to understand.

I also want to point out that you started your topic in the question and answer subform, not the essay subform. So I am asking a question and would like the courtesy of an actual answer rather than an attack on my character.

Since you feel threatened by my question allow me to attempt a less threatening way to ask it. I would like to know how you want to define religious experience going forward since you seem to want the discussion to move in the direction of evolutionary religion and social progress. In regards to that, when you say "religious experience" are you referring to experience with organized religion or are you referring to an individual's personal relationship with God. Do you want the direction of the discussion to go in the way of socialized religion or personal religion? Or both? It's confusing.

Looking forward to your answer. Thanks


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 3281
Emotions? Threatened? You have my answer.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:11 pm +0000
Posts: 428
Bradly, you asked me to go back to the beginning of the topic and to get back on track with it. I'm doing that now and I came across this:

fanofVan wrote:
Let us Exuberate by this Good News!! Next we will begin to examine the fact and function of evolutionary religion and how it leads to planetary progress as well as personal and generational progression. It begins with the feeling and growing certainty of the "other within". There is me in here...but I am not alone in here either. The I AM speaks in a whisper....at first. There is a "presence" and it brings a comfort "to" and a confirmation "of" me. An assurance arrives.


You say that evolutionary religion begins with a "feeling and growing certainty of the "other within"." Then you go on to describe the "other within" as the I AM who speaks in a whisper. I think we can agree that this is the soul. And if indeed it is the soul, you appear to be saying that evolutionary religion begins with the growing certainty of the I AM as the "other within" the soul?

My question: Are you describing evolutionary religion here, or revelatory religion?

fanofVan wrote:
Also, the material world is filled effects which are the results of cause....the first causes are less scientific and physics oriented leading to confidence in the hand and finger of unseen beings who create and cause all that happens to us - and doesn't happen to us! The inner life of the first people...and children.


Certainly you can appreciate why a person can get confused with your statement above. I'm going to try to decipher it according to my own understanding, but I'm not sure if it's what you mean. Here's my understanding:

The material world of cause and effect is poorly understood by the primitive mind so it is attributed to unseen beings who bring good luck and bad luck. This is the inner life of the original man and of children.

My question: Is my interpretation correct?

fanofVan wrote:
The beginning of the evolutionary religious experience is the beginning of the discovery of reality -


Again, I find this confusing. You wrote above that the beginning of evolutionary religious experience has to do with the "feeling and growing certainty of the "other within"."

My question: Is this the same reality you are referring to?

fanofVan wrote:
- two realities in our perception only which become the one, unified and integrated and actual reality.... eventually, once we have acquired sufficient experiential wisdom and spiritual progress.


It appears that the two realities are: 1. the individual, and 2. the "other within", the I AM. If so, I interpret the rest of the sentence to mean that it takes wisdom and spiritual progress to turn these two realities into one.

My questions:

1. Are you saying that the beginning of evolutionary religion, which you describe as the "feeling and growing certainty of the "other within" which I presume is also the "beginning of the discovery of reality" is really two realities that must be "unified and integrated" through "experiential wisdom and spiritual progress"?

2. What is the one reality? Are you referring to fusion, or the Supreme? It's unclear to me.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 3281
Kat posts: "It appears that the two realities are: 1. the individual, and 2. the "other within", the I AM. If so, I interpret the rest of the sentence to mean that it takes wisdom and spiritual progress to turn these two realities into one.

My questions:

1. Are you saying that the beginning of evolutionary religion, which you describe as the "feeling and growing certainty of the "other within" which I presume is also the "beginning of the discovery of reality" is really two realities that must be "unified and integrated" through "experiential wisdom and spiritual progress"?

2. What is the one reality? Are you referring to fusion, or the Supreme? It's unclear to me."



Yes indeed you are so confused!

The two realities are the external material world into which we are born with body. The other is the internal world of "me" as distinct from the material world. The reality of me and of not me.

The two realities we must harmonize kat are the spirit reality and the material reality...as you know but pretend not to. Reality is the unified source of both the spirit worlds and the material worlds and the morontial experience between them.

The presence within is not "me" but is the "other" within me. A growing awareness of God through the personality circuit I think...the whisper of comfort that gives assurance...the assurance of faith that comes prior to the Adjuster and personal revelation. And no, I don't think this is the soul but comes prior to soul.

You are coming across as coy and clever and insincere kat….never a good look. :roll:

Since everything I write is so confusing to you perhaps you would be better off elsewhere? After years and thousands of posts and hundreds of interactions with others and comments, I've never met anyone so baffled or unable to understand my words. And only 2-4 persons who could twist them into such contortions of misrepresentation. It turned out those folks also had an agenda of disruption and had no real interest in study or sharing....just domination and control. You will please refrain from all further comments and criticism on my writing style. Go pick your nits elsewhere please.

34:6.9 In every mortal there exists a dual nature: the inheritance of animal tendencies and the high urge of spirit endowment. During the short life you live on Urantia, these two diverse and opposing urges can seldom be fully reconciled; they can hardly be harmonized and unified; but throughout your lifetime the combined Spirit ever ministers to assist you in subjecting the flesh more and more to the leading of the Spirit. Even though you must live your material life through, even though you cannot escape the body and its necessities, nonetheless, in purpose and ideals you are empowered increasingly to subject the animal nature to the mastery of the Spirit. There truly exists within you a conspiracy of spiritual forces, a confederation of divine powers, whose exclusive purpose is to effect your final deliverance from material bondage and finite handicaps.

34:6.10 The purpose of all this ministration is, “That you may be strengthened with power through His spirit in the inner man.” And all this represents but the preliminary steps to the final attainment of the perfection of faith and service, that experience wherein you shall be “filled with all the fullness of God,” “for all those who are led by the spirit of God are the sons of God.” *

34:6.11 The Spirit never drives, only leads. If you are a willing learner, if you want to attain spirit levels and reach divine heights, if you sincerely desire to reach the eternal goal, then the divine Spirit will gently and lovingly lead you along the pathway of sonship and spiritual progress. Every step you take must be one of willingness, intelligent and cheerful co-operation. The domination of the Spirit is never tainted with coercion nor compromised by compulsion.

34:6.12 And when such a life of spirit guidance is freely and intelligently accepted, there gradually develops within the human mind a positive consciousness of divine contact and assurance of spirit communion; sooner or later “the Spirit bears witness with your spirit (the Adjuster) that you are a child of God.” Already has your own Thought Adjuster told you of your kinship to God so that the record testifies that the Spirit bears witness “with your spirit,” not to your spirit.

34:6.13 The consciousness of the spirit domination of a human life is presently attended by an increasing exhibition of the characteristics of the Spirit in the life reactions of such a spirit-led mortal, “for the fruits of the spirit are love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance.” Such spirit-guided and divinely illuminated mortals, while they yet tread the lowly paths of toil and in human faithfulness perform the duties of their earthly assignments, have already begun to discern the lights of eternal life as they glimmer on the faraway shores of another world; already have they begun to comprehend the reality of that inspiring and comforting truth, “The kingdom of God is not meat and drink but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.” And throughout every trial and in the presence of every hardship, spirit-born souls are sustained by that hope which transcends all fear because the love of God is shed abroad in all hearts by the presence of the divine Spirit.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:11 pm +0000
Posts: 428
fanofVan wrote:
The two realities are the external material world into which we are born with body. The other is the internal world of "me" as distinct from the material world. The reality of me and of not me. . . . .The presence within is not "me" but is the "other" within me. A growing awareness of God through the personality circuit I think...the whisper of comfort that gives assurance...the assurance of faith that comes prior to the Adjuster and personal revelation. And no, I don't think this is the soul but comes prior to soul.


So there's two realities, the outside world and the inside world. Then within the inside world there's an "other" than me, who is God? Doesn't that add up to three realities, physical, mental and spiritual? The reference below refers to consciousness of the self and consciousness of "other-mindness". That's two minds. One mind is the self's mind, the other is a the spiritual mindness of God in the soul, another person. Right? The physical world, including the body would be a third reality, and I agree, it all needs to be integrated and coordinated.

(1123:3) 102:4.3 Man very early becomes conscious that he is not alone in the world or the universe. There develops a natural spontaneous self-consciousness of other-mindness in the environment of selfhood. Faith translates this natural experience into religion, the recognition of God as the reality—source, nature, and destiny—of other-mindness. But such a knowledge of God is ever and always a reality of personal experience. If God were not a personality, he could not become a living part of the real religious experience of a human personality.

But more to the point, you said, and I'm paraphrasing, that the awareness of "other-mindness" is the beginning of evolutionary religion. I don't disagree with that, but then you said that the beginning of evolutionary religion is the discovery of reality, which you described as two in number, the external world and the internal world. What about the two realities in the internal world, the self consciousness reality of mind and the other-mindness of God? I think we can both agree that there are three levels of reality.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 3281
We are told we are dual natured kat. The text is clear. Spirit and material realities, appear to us as different when they really are not and are perfectly harmonized in reality and our task is likewise to harmonize them in and by mind function. The intervening reality of morontia is not known to us and that lack provides a burden and obstacle to our philosophy and metaphysics and integration/harmonization of reality...which we will overcome with mota and our own morontia experience. Reality has many levels but yet we have but a dual nature and only discover different levels of reality one at a time. Discovering the "other" in-mind is simply to discover God within. This discovery delivers and is itself religious experience.

34:6.9 (381.3) In every mortal there exists a dual nature: the inheritance of animal tendencies and the high urge of spirit endowment. During the short life you live on Urantia, these two diverse and opposing urges can seldom be fully reconciled; they can hardly be harmonized and unified; but throughout your lifetime the combined Spirit ever ministers to assist you in subjecting the flesh more and more to the leading of the Spirit. Even though you must live your material life through, even though you cannot escape the body and its necessities, nonetheless, in purpose and ideals you are empowered increasingly to subject the animal nature to the mastery of the Spirit. There truly exists within you a conspiracy of spiritual forces, a confederation of divine powers, whose exclusive purpose is to effect your final deliverance from material bondage and finite handicaps.

We are engineered, built, and wired to experience God's presence and to respond to that presence. Early in religious experience, faith is not a conscious event or force but is the connection of parent and child...lips suckling breast, responding to touch and urge and receiving nourishment and attention and embrace and love. The religious experience defines humanity, from infancy to adulthood and from the trees to the moon.

And still, it is that second experience we are supposedly discussing here...the trip from the trees to the moon...and on to Light and Life through the Mortal Epochs. I begin to despair we will ever begin if we keep following you off track and onto every rabbit track and detour you keep running down kat. Oh well, patience then, patience. Perhaps we can get to the topic yet.

There are so many agents and agencies of human progress through the Mortal Epochs. Was reading Paper 39 about the Seraphic Hosts and their influences to the progress of humanity and Paper 113 and The Seraphic Guardians and their ministry to mind and environment, guiding the footsteps of individuals and manipulating the social and material and moral environments and intersections of choice to teach and guide us, individually and thusly collectively, forward into new responses and finding new meanings in life...working to affect motives and intentions and priorities over time. All of which leads to incremental evolutionary social changes.

114:0.1 (1250.1) THE Most Highs rule in the kingdoms of men through many celestial forces and agencies but chiefly through the ministry of seraphim.

114:6.4 (1255.3) The twelve corps of the master seraphim of planetary supervision are functional on Urantia as follows:

114:6.5 (1255.4) 1. The epochal angels. These are the angels of the current age, the dispensational group. These celestial ministers are intrusted with the oversight and direction of the affairs of each generation as they are designed to fit into the mosaic of the age in which they occur. The present corps of epochal angels serving on Urantia is the third group assigned to the planet during the current dispensation.

114:6.6 (1255.5) 2. The progress angels. These seraphim are intrusted with the task of initiating the evolutionary progress of the successive social ages. They foster the development of the inherent progressive trend of evolutionary creatures; they labor incessantly to make things what they ought to be. The group now on duty is the second to be assigned to the planet.

114:6.7 (1255.6) 3. The religious guardians. These are the “angels of the churches,” the earnest contenders for that which is and has been. They endeavor to maintain the ideals of that which has survived for the sake of the safe transit of moral values from one epoch to another. They are the checkmates of the angels of progress, all the while seeking to translate from one generation to another the imperishable values of the old and passing forms into the new and therefore less stabilized patterns of thought and conduct. These angels do contend for spiritual forms, but they are not the source of ultrasectarianism and meaningless controversial divisions of professed religionists. The corps now functioning on Urantia is the fifth thus to serve.

114:6.8 (1255.7) 4. The angels of nation life. These are the “angels of the trumpets,” directors of the political performances of Urantia national life. The group now functioning in the overcontrol of international relations is the fourth corps to serve on the planet. It is particularly through the ministry of this seraphic division that “the Most Highs rule in the kingdoms of men.”

114:6.9 (1255.8) 5. The angels of the races. Those who work for the conservation of the evolutionary races of time, regardless of their political entanglements and religious groupings. On Urantia there are remnants of nine human races which have commingled and combined into the people of modern times. These seraphim are closely associated with the ministry of the race commissioners, and the group now on Urantia is the original corps assigned to the planet soon after the day of Pentecost.

114:6.10 (1255.9) 6. The angels of the future. These are the projection angels, who forecast a future age and plan for the realization of the better things of a new and advancing dispensation; they are the architects of the successive eras. The group now on the planet has thus functioned since the beginning of the current dispensation.

114:6.11 (1256.1) 7. The angels of enlightenment. Urantia is now receiving the help of the third corps of seraphim dedicated to the fostering of planetary education. These angels are occupied with mental and moral training as it concerns individuals, families, groups, schools, communities, nations, and whole races.

114:6.12 (1256.2) 8. The angels of health. These are the seraphic ministers assigned to the assistance of those mortal agencies dedicated to the promotion of health and the prevention of disease. The present corps is the sixth group to serve during this dispensation.

114:6.13 (1256.3) 9. The home seraphim. Urantia now enjoys the services of the fifth group of angelic ministers dedicated to the preservation and advancement of the home, the basic institution of human civilization.

114:6.14 (1256.4) 10. The angels of industry. This seraphic group is concerned with fostering industrial development and improving economic conditions among the Urantia peoples. This corps has been seven times changed since the bestowal of Michael.

114:6.15 (1256.5) 11. The angels of diversion. These are the seraphim who foster the values of play, humor, and rest. They ever seek to uplift man’s recreational diversions and thus to promote the more profitable utilization of human leisure. The present corps is the third of that order to minister on Urantia.

114:6.16 (1256.6) 12. The angels of superhuman ministry. These are the angels of the angels, those seraphim who are assigned to the ministry of all other superhuman life on the planet, temporary or permanent. This corps has served since the beginning of the current dispensation.

Me here: The evolutionary progress of religion, science, society, and philosophy cannot be appreciated without study of the seraphic role in that process. Those who believe that Urantia is some poor, isolated, forgotten orphan on the edges of time could not be more wrong. Never has there been a world with more attention and affection bestowed upon it and we have such skill and talent focused upon us daily that it is a thrill to consider the evolutionary progress of Urantia without and despite the losses incurred by rebellion and default. We quiver on the brink and race forward into the epochs of time toward our inevitable destiny of Light and Life...despite all the whiners and doomers and gloomers and feckless and faithless voices who starve at the banquet table of life in this friendly universe! Fear Not.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:11 pm +0000
Posts: 428
fanofVan wrote:
Early in religious experience, faith is not a conscious event or force but is the connection of parent and child...lips suckling breast, responding to touch and urge and receiving nourishment and attention and embrace and love. The religious experience defines humanity, from infancy to adulthood and from the trees to the moon.


Are you saying that a suckling infant does so due to its faith? That an infant who responds to a parent's loving touch is having a religious experience? Would you mind explaining more about that?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 3281
Nope...not saying that at all. Just a simple analogy.

And into the weeds she goes!

I will now be ignoring your posts which appear to be solely for the purpose of distractions and disruption. Apparently only my silence or acquiescence will satisfy your agenda. Ypu shall not get such satisfaction here.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:52 am +0000
Posts: 784
katroofjebus wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
Early in religious experience, faith is not a conscious event or force but is the connection of parent and child...lips suckling breast, responding to touch and urge and receiving nourishment and attention and embrace and love. The religious experience defines humanity, from infancy to adulthood and from the trees to the moon.


Are you saying that a suckling infant does so due to its faith? That an infant who responds to a parent's loving touch is having a religious experience? Would you mind explaining more about that?


I see, above, that Bradly says he was NOT saying that. But I'd like to offer a different perspective. When I read that post of Bradly's I agreed with him that a suckling child is experiencing the very early glimmers of faith. The reason I say this is a baby has complete trust that her needs will be met by her loving parent. When she cries or roots for the breast, nourishment is soon forthcoming. The baby has, as Bradly put it, a "connection" with the parent and this connection is founded on trust and belief (reassurance) that the parent loves and cares for the needs of the child. To me, that is a very early, undeveloped form of faith. Faith and connection to the earthly parent, to be sure. But to a baby, their earthly caregivers are God, in a way. Their mind is too undeveloped to conceive of anything outside that physical and emotional connection.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 108 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Registered users: No registered users


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You can post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group