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I look forward to text supporting your claims and propositions here Student!!

Michael’s bestowal was no rescue mission nor any test either... according to the Papers. And the very human boy and young man of Jesus did not know of anything in Papers 1-119... as the text I posted clearly states. Jesus was both the Son of Man and the Son of God, but born as a human among humans.

The reservation?

Glad you are here and appreciate your perspective.

8)


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the michael sons will still be the ruling sons in the next outer space level while the finaliters will be the constellation, system and planetary rulers.

55:10.11 (635.2) We are, however, satisfied regarding two features of our speculations: If the Creator Sons are destined to the outer universes, the Divine Ministers will undoubtedly accompany them. We are equally sure that the Melchizedeks are to remain with the universes of their origin. We hold that the Melchizedeks are destined to play ever-increasingly responsible parts in local universe government and administration.

fanofVan wrote:
I look forward to your understanding of how these concepts are related - exchanging our mind for Michael’s and our TA becoming personalized and experiential upon our future fusion. One is now and the other in the potential future destiny of our spiritization.

The Adjusters are not us prior to fusion. We are the source of personality and selfhood and identity - not the God Fragments.

My Adjuster is not me yet. But will be so upon fusion. The text you post here is about far into our future! So one quote is about being a tadpole and the other about being a post-fusion ascender or finaliter.

44:0.17 (498.8) There are certain types of beings who are capable of discerning the reality of the creatures of both the spirit and the material worlds. Belonging to this class are the so-called fourth creatures of the Havona Servitals and the fourth creatures of the conciliators. The angels of time and space are endowed with the ability to discern both spirit and material beings as also are the ascending mortals subsequent to deliverance from the life in the flesh. After attainment of the higher spirit levels the ascenders are able to recognize material, morontia, and spirit realities.

44:0.18 (498.9) There is also here with me a Mighty Messenger from Uversa, an ascendant Adjuster-fused, onetime mortal being, and he perceives you as you are, and at the same time he visualizes the Solitary Messenger, the supernaphim, and other celestial beings present. Never in your long ascendancy will you lose the power to recognize your associates of former existences. Always, as you ascend inward in the scale of life, will you retain the ability to recognize and fraternize with the fellow beings of your previous and lower levels of experience. Each new translation or resurrection will add one more group of spirit beings to your vision range without in the least depriving you of the ability to recognize your friends and fellows of former estates.

44:0.19 (498.10) All this is made possible in the experience of ascending mortals by the action of the indwelling Thought Adjusters. Through their retention of the duplicates of your entire life’s experiences, you are assured of never losing any true attribute you once had; and these Adjusters are going through with you, as a part of you, in reality, as you.

8)


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Rich - I have always wondered about the role of the various Finaliter Corps in the outer universe levels. Do you have text references for us?

Thanks. :smile:

12:2.5 (131.2) We know very little of the significance of these tremendous phenomena of outer space. A greater creation of the future is in process of formation. We can observe its immensity, we can discern its extent and sense its majestic dimensions, but otherwise we know little more about these realms than do the astronomers of Urantia. As far as we know, no material beings on the order of humans, no angels or other spirit creatures, exist in this outer ring of nebulae, suns, and planets. This distant domain is beyond the jurisdiction and administration of the superuniverse governments.

12:2.6 (131.3) Throughout Orvonton it is believed that a new type of creation is in process, an order of universes destined to become the scene of the future activities of the assembling Corps of the Finality; and if our conjectures are correct, then the endless future may hold for all of you the same enthralling spectacles that the endless past has held for your seniors and predecessors.


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fanofVan wrote:
I look forward to text supporting your claims and propositions here Student!!

Michael’s bestowal was no rescue mission nor any test either... according to the Papers. And the very human boy and young man of Jesus did not know of anything in Papers 1-119... as the text I posted clearly states. Jesus was both the Son of Man and the Son of God, but born as a human among humans.

The reservation?

Glad you are here and appreciate your perspective.

8)



He proved humanity could still grow a soul as originally designed.


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Student says above: "He proved humanity could still grow a soul as originally designed."


Do you think souls were rare on Urantia? If so, why so I wonder?

Certainly are souls more common on every world after the Spirit of Truth is bestowed I think.

But souls are born upon the expression of morality and loyalty and duty and altruism and generosity and love. The very first humans gave birth to soul... and for the next million years many others did so too.

The ability to give birth to a soul by mortals has been functional since the 6th and 7th Adjutants made connection with Andon and Fonta a million years ago (as you point out above). At no time has this function been jeopardized or dysfunctional according to my understanding of the Papers.

Soul is born by our connection to and response to the Deity connection of the Holy Spirit and the Adjutants of Worship and Wisdom. Those connections are the very definition of being human rather than animal. By those connections are we bestowed personality and are connected to the Personality, Mind, and Spirit Gravity Circuits. No person or being or act can disrupt or interfere with those Divine connections to mortals or celestials. Only our own choices and resistance can interfere with or diminish the connection.

8)

5:6.9 (71.4) The bestowal of creature personality confers relative liberation from slavish response to antecedent causation, and the personalities of all such moral beings, evolutionary or otherwise, are centered in the personality of the Universal Father. They are ever drawn towards his Paradise presence by that kinship of being which constitutes the vast and universal family circle and fraternal circuit of the eternal God. There is a kinship of divine spontaneity in all personality.

5:6.10 (71.5) The personality circuit of the universe of universes is centered in the person of the Universal Father, and the Paradise Father is personally conscious of, and in personal touch with, all personalities of all levels of self-conscious existence. And this personality consciousness of all creation exists independently of the mission of the Thought Adjusters.

5:6.11 (71.6) As all gravity is circuited in the Isle of Paradise, as all mind is circuited in the Conjoint Actor and all spirit in the Eternal Son, so is all personality circuited in the personal presence of the Universal Father, and this circuit unerringly transmits the worship of all personalities to the Original and Eternal Personality.


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Student wrote:

fanofVan wrote:
Student says above: "And that's what is so spectacular about Part IV of the Urantia Book - Jesus already knows everything in Papers 1 through 119."

Hmmmm.... eventually, yes. But not prior to the time in the Perean Hills I don't think. Jesus was quite human, the Son of Man, first. His mind and mortal religious experience and growth were so wonderfully human in nature and expression. He was 29-30 before he comes to remember his universe reality perspective and experience as Son of God. His public ministry begins at this time. See Paper 136.

Student replies: "Hi there,

Not "eventually" - at least not according to Paper 120...He was rescuing humanity - our natural birthright as Children of God.

Origin, purpose, destiny. No conversation among sincere students learning ANYTHING in life can go off the reservation, so to speak, when it comes to the Truth - who are we?

So you seem to have interpreted what was always a part of the plan for the Bestowal of Michael on Nebadon as a "test". It was a "test" to find a good set of parents after the default of Adam and Eve, I'll give you that, but that was delegated to the rest of the Bestowal Mission personnel to find. He was going to come back in Morontia form to "show the way", and that is why the CHOICE was doing it the "natural" way, at least that is how I read it after reading all the 119 papers setting up the facts of the Bestowal. And that's what was awesome about rediscovering how he never left us. That's what "The Spirit of Truth" is, His Personality presence in one of the four gravities distributed across the Eternal NOW creation in time and space. His personal and intimate gift to the human consciousness that knows there is a higher consciousness.

Personality is from God in ORIGIN, and the Thought Adjusters ARE God in presence.

Fatherhood of God, Brotherhood of Man

Even a completely mechanistic approach tells you that is who we are....Children of God, who don't need anything that God did not already give us, freely, to grow our soul in his garden - Earth - a cosmic Nursery of Life Forms.

So what do you think is going on...who are you?"


Bradly here: Such an interesting, and complex, question. Who are we or who am I... indeed! I think we are both self-aware and other-aware from our very early days after birth. That awareness of self however is not really yet a sense of identity. We "are" but "who" are we? I think that sense of identity is truly a function of religious experience and the relationship of self to other, or of self to the Deity connection within. Only those beings with personality actually have both selfhood and identity. Are we who we think we are??? Although personality is changeless, I think our own identity and selfhood is the experiential realization of potentials. Our identity is actualizing by that realization of potential. We are beings of ascension and transformation and transcendence and progressive attainment and experiential wisdom. We are a reflection of that process. Or so I understand.

Keyword search for "selfhood":

https://www.urantia.org/urantia-book/se ... &op=Search

And "identity":

https://www.urantia.org/urantia-book/se ... &op=Search

5:6.4 (70.5) The bestowal of personality is the exclusive function of the Universal Father, the personalization of the living energy systems which he endows with the attributes of relative creative consciousness and the freewill control thereof. There is no personality apart from God the Father, and no personality exists except for God the Father. The fundamental attributes of human selfhood, as well as the absolute Adjuster nucleus of the human personality, are the bestowals of the Universal Father, acting in his exclusively personal domain of cosmic ministry.

5:6.5 (70.6) The Adjusters of prepersonal status indwell numerous types of mortal creatures, thus insuring that these same beings may survive mortal death to personalize as morontia creatures with the potential of ultimate spirit attainment. For, when such a creature mind of personality endowment is indwelt by a fragment of the spirit of the eternal God, the prepersonal bestowal of the personal Father, then does this finite personality possess the potential of the divine and the eternal and aspire to a destiny akin to the Ultimate, even reaching out for a realization of the Absolute.

5:6.6 (71.1) Capacity for divine personality is inherent in the prepersonal Adjuster; capacity for human personality is potential in the cosmic-mind endowment of the human being. But the experiential personality of mortal man is not observable as an active and functional reality until after the material life vehicle of the mortal creature has been touched by the liberating divinity of the Universal Father, being thus launched upon the seas of experience as a self-conscious and a (relatively) self-determinative and self-creative personality. The material self is truly and unqualifiedly personal.

5:6.7 (71.2) The material self has personality and identity, temporal identity; the prepersonal spirit Adjuster also has identity, eternal identity. This material personality and this spirit prepersonality are capable of so uniting their creative attributes as to bring into existence the surviving identity of the immortal soul.

5:6.8 (71.3) Having thus provided for the growth of the immortal soul and having liberated man’s inner self from the fetters of absolute dependence on antecedent causation, the Father stands aside. Now, man having thus been liberated from the fetters of causation response, at least as pertains to eternal destiny, and provision having been made for the growth of the immortal self, the soul, it remains for man himself to will the creation or to inhibit the creation of this surviving and eternal self which is his for the choosing. No other being, force, creator, or agency in all the wide universe of universes can interfere to any degree with the absolute sovereignty of the mortal free will, as it operates within the realms of choice, regarding the eternal destiny of the personality of the choosing mortal. As pertains to eternal survival, God has decreed the sovereignty of the material and mortal will, and that decree is absolute.

5:6.9 (71.4) The bestowal of creature personality confers relative liberation from slavish response to antecedent causation, and the personalities of all such moral beings, evolutionary or otherwise, are centered in the personality of the Universal Father. They are ever drawn towards his Paradise presence by that kinship of being which constitutes the vast and universal family circle and fraternal circuit of the eternal God. There is a kinship of divine spontaneity in all personality.


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i'm resting and reverting, engaged in spirit play.

25:7.2 (282.6) Though you will have earnest and progressively difficult tasks to perform on the morontia training worlds of Nebadon, you will always be provided with regular seasons of rest and reversion. Throughout the journey to Paradise there will always be time for rest and spirit play; and in the career of light and life there is always time for worship and new achievement.

fanofVan wrote:
Nope...again! Not what I said at all. I said you choose to serve us irrelevant gibberish here.

Try harder Rich. :roll:


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Hi There!

FOV wrote, "Do you think souls were rare on Urantia? If so, why so I wonder?

Certainly are souls more common on every world after the Spirit of Truth is bestowed I think."

________________________________________________________________________________

Not after reading Part I, which is my personal favorite experience with the book.

________________________________________________________________________________

FOV wrote, "No person or being or act can disrupt or interfere with those Divine connections to mortals or celestials. Only our own choices and resistance can interfere with or diminish the connection."

____________________________________________________________________________________________________

LOL - well, it's not as if people don't try to disrupt and interfere - look at Lucifer. And isn't this thread about "censored in the light of the counsel of high minds"....?

Can you censor a soul using the "telephone"....? Paper 12 - The Universe of Universes - 9. Personal Realities - "...The number assigned to a telephone subscriber does not in any manner identify the personality of that subscriber or signify anything concerning his character...."

Do YOU "think" that people are trying to interfere with origin, purpose, destiny on a cosmic scale by interfering with soul growth choices of individuals...?

Personality is a gravity field and Thought Adjusters are the purest kind of "energy" anywhere, ever, in Infinity and the purpose of the combo is Soul....the Mind Gravity field is in play, but the material gravity field is not a factor in Soul creation.

So this conversation would be much more fun if we stay in the "Spiritual Kingdom" because we can choose to do that 8)

Part I is information even Lucifer should have found to be mind boggling :shock:


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Student asks above: "Do YOU "think" that people are trying to interfere with origin, purpose, destiny on a cosmic scale by interfering with soul growth choices of individuals...?"

No. I don't think people intentionally attempt to interfere with soul growth. I think there are many reasons and factors which do provide interference to the Spirit connection within however. I think we can be easily distracted by pleasure and suffering, and by self indulgence and self pity, and by the mind poisons of fear, hate, anger, greed, lust, envy, covetousness, and material ambition.

I think parents and culture can interfere with the child's natural predisposition and nature of altruism and generosity and curiosity and loyalty and thereby disrupt the spirit connection. But soul, once born, has its own Divine Connection (as you say) and may make great progress by the human mind's unconscious responses to the Spirit presence within.

The mortal's pre-fusion experience is all about getting tuned in to the Divine Connection and eliminating the static and interference of materialism and self importance of ignorance, immaturity, and inexperience of selfhood.

8)

110:1.5 (1204.3) The Adjuster remains with you in all disaster and through every sickness which does not wholly destroy the mentality. But how unkind knowingly to defile or otherwise deliberately to pollute the physical body, which must serve as the earthly tabernacle of this marvelous gift from God. All physical poisons greatly retard the efforts of the Adjuster to exalt the material mind, while the mental poisons of fear, anger, envy, jealousy, suspicion, and intolerance likewise tremendously interfere with the spiritual progress of the evolving soul.

"Attunement":

https://www.urantia.org/urantia-book/se ... &op=Search

39:5.6 (437.5) In the more advanced epochs of planetary evolution these seraphim are instrumental in supplanting the atonement idea by the concept of divine attunement as a philosophy of mortal survival.

8)

110:3.4 (1206.2) I cannot but observe that so many of you spend so much time and thought on mere trifles of living, while you almost wholly overlook the more essential realities of everlasting import, those very accomplishments which are concerned with the development of a more harmonious working agreement between you and your Adjusters. The great goal of human existence is to attune to the divinity of the indwelling Adjuster; the great achievement of mortal life is the attainment of a true and understanding consecration to the eternal aims of the divine spirit who waits and works within your mind. But a devoted and determined effort to realize eternal destiny is wholly compatible with a lighthearted and joyous life and with a successful and honorable career on earth. ....


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you serve as a broadcast director for the group censoring my broadcast material.

44:4.9 (504.1) 5. The broadcast directors. The broadcasts of Paradise, the superuniverses, and the local universes are under the general supervision of this group of thought conservers. They serve as censors and editors as well as co-ordinators of the broadcast material, making a superuniverse adaptation of all Paradise broadcasts and adapting and translating the broadcasts of the Ancients of Days into the individual tongues of the local universes.

fanofVan wrote:
Is there some proposition being argued or defended here by anyone? What might that be?

Something topical or relevant from you Rich would be so welcome!! So far you offer nothing for consideration, reflection, study, discussion, or any argument.

:wink:


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rich.sachs wrote:
you serve as a broadcast director for the group censoring my broadcast material.

44:4.9 (504.1) 5. The broadcast directors. The broadcasts of Paradise, the superuniverses, and the local universes are under the general supervision of this group of thought conservers. They serve as censors and editors as well as co-ordinators of the broadcast material, making a superuniverse adaptation of all Paradise broadcasts and adapting and translating the broadcasts of the Ancients of Days into the individual tongues of the local universes.

fanofVan wrote:
Is there some proposition being argued or defended here by anyone? What might that be?

Something topical or relevant from you Rich would be so welcome!! So far you offer nothing for consideration, reflection, study, discussion, or any argument.

:wink:


If that were true then your irrelevancy would require me shutting down your broadcasts. Luckily for you I'm not in charge.

:wink:

Student - I have enjoyed the conversation with you but this is my last post on this troll's thread. Perhaps we can reconnect on another, less cluttered and ridiculous topic?

8) :biggrin:


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"....But a devoted and determined effort to realize eternal destiny is wholly compatible with a lighthearted and joyous life and with a successful and honorable career on earth..."

Amen to that :-)

The PURPOSE of everyone's bona-fide imperfect changeless personality that God the Father gave all his Children (only a person can love and be loved) in "attuning" to the Thought Adjuster is to give birth to a SOUL.

Personality is from God, Thought Adjuster is from God....what could go wrong?

Seems like some people are over-complicating it in their own minds and wanting a material "telephone" connection, or something, to do it for them - a magic trick to get those lottery numbers right :lol:

I would never dare to comment on your, or anyone's, one on one relationship with their TA because that would be a terrible breach of ethics and privacy. No one knows you better than your TA. I don't know you at all. We just exchange words using electron magic gizmos on a "telephone" line.


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i'm so wholly, divinely, and spiritually unified with the positive and supreme qualities of goodness, beauty, and truth that there remains no possibility that i could cast any negative shadow of potential evil as exposed to the searching luminosity of the divine light of the infinite Rulers of Paradise.

132:2.9 (1458.6) By the time of the attainment of Paradise the ascending mortal’s capacity for identifying the self with true spirit values has become so enlarged as to result in the attainment of the perfection of the possession of the light of life. Such a perfected spirit personality becomes so wholly, divinely, and spiritually unified with the positive and supreme qualities of goodness, beauty, and truth that there remains no possibility that such a righteous spirit would cast any negative shadow of potential evil when exposed to the searching luminosity of the divine light of the infinite Rulers of Paradise. In all such spirit personalities, goodness is no longer partial, contrastive, and comparative; it has become divinely complete and spiritually replete; it approaches the purity and perfection of the Supreme.

maryjo606 wrote:
Rich, I am glad that you want to have discussion on this forum. But your use of Urantia Book quotes is off the mark. I know you love the book and you're good at finding passages but do you think it is really helpful to use quotes like this to answer those who are trying to engage with you?

Isn't there something you could contribute to the discussion that has developed here about the soul? Something that is important to you about your own soul, for example?


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[quote="rich.sachs"]i'm so wholly, divinely, and spiritually unified with the positive and supreme qualities of goodness, beauty, and truth that there remains no possibility that i could cast any negative shadow of potential evil as exposed to the searching luminosity of the divine light of the infinite Rulers of Paradise.

132:2.9 (1458.6) By the time of the attainment of Paradise the ascending mortal’s capacity for identifying the self with true spirit values has become so enlarged as to result in the attainment of the perfection of the possession of the light of life. Such a perfected spirit personality becomes so wholly, divinely, and spiritually unified with the positive and supreme qualities of goodness, beauty, and truth that there remains no possibility that such a righteous spirit would cast any negative shadow of potential evil when exposed to the searching luminosity of the divine light of the infinite Rulers of Paradise. In all such spirit personalities, goodness is no longer partial, contrastive, and comparative; it has become divinely complete and spiritually replete; it approaches the purity and perfection of the Supreme.
_________________________________________________________________


Hey! Congratulations, Rich!

Your twitter suspension is over...?


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The various Finaliter Corps will become the superb rulers, matchless administrators, and understanding and sympathetic directors of any and all forms of intelligent life which may come into existence throughout the future universes of the first outer space level.

112:7.15 (1239.4) The present known destiny of surviving mortals is the Paradise Corps of the Finality; this is also the goal of destiny for all Thought Adjusters who become joined in eternal union with their mortal companions. At present the Paradise finaliters are working throughout the grand universe in many undertakings, but we all conjecture that they will have other and even more supernal tasks to perform in the distant future after the seven superuniverses have become settled in light and life, and when the finite God has finally emerged from the mystery which now surrounds this Supreme Deity.

112:7.16 (1239.5) You have been instructed to a certain extent about the organization and personnel of the central universe, the superuniverses, and the local universes; you have been told something about the character and origin of some of the various personalities who now rule these far-flung creations. You have also been informed that there are in process of organization vast galaxies of universes far out beyond the periphery of the grand universe, in the first outer space level. It has also been intimated in the course of these narratives that the Supreme Being is to disclose his unrevealed tertiary function in these now uncharted regions of outer space; and you have also been told that the finaliters of the Paradise corps are the experiential children of the Supreme.

112:7.17 (1239.6) We believe that the mortals of Adjuster fusion, together with their finaliter associates, are destined to function in some manner in the administration of the universes of the first outer space level. We have not the slightest doubt that in due time these enormous galaxies will become inhabited universes. And we are equally convinced that among the administrators thereof will be found the Paradise finaliters whose natures are the cosmic consequence of the blending of creature and Creator.

112:7.18 (1239.7) What an adventure! What a romance! A gigantic creation to be administered by the children of the Supreme, these personalized and humanized Adjusters, these Adjusterized and eternalized mortals, these mysterious combinations and eternal associations of the highest known manifestation of the essence of the First Source and Center and the lowest form of intelligent life capable of comprehending and attaining the Universal Father. We conceive that such amalgamated beings, such partnerships of Creator and creature, will become superb rulers, matchless administrators, and understanding and sympathetic directors of any and all forms of intelligent life which may come into existence throughout these future universes of the first outer space level.

fanofVan wrote:
Rich - I have always wondered about the role of the various Finaliter Corps in the outer universe levels. Do you have text references for us?

Thanks. :smile:

12:2.5 (131.2) We know very little of the significance of these tremendous phenomena of outer space. A greater creation of the future is in process of formation. We can observe its immensity, we can discern its extent and sense its majestic dimensions, but otherwise we know little more about these realms than do the astronomers of Urantia. As far as we know, no material beings on the order of humans, no angels or other spirit creatures, exist in this outer ring of nebulae, suns, and planets. This distant domain is beyond the jurisdiction and administration of the superuniverse governments.

12:2.6 (131.3) Throughout Orvonton it is believed that a new type of creation is in process, an order of universes destined to become the scene of the future activities of the assembling Corps of the Finality; and if our conjectures are correct, then the endless future may hold for all of you the same enthralling spectacles that the endless past has held for your seniors and predecessors.


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