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Perhaps to you, and to others, the issues here are but the splitting of hairs and the hot air of mere bickering, a pointless exercise in argument for its own sake. That is a pity.

For, to me anyway, the issues here demonstrate profoundly important distinctions between the reality perspective within the UB and that of evolved religious superstitions based on fear and guilt. Our natural relationship with and connection to Deity is fully functional and intact long before it is polluted and distorted by such fears and superstitions and the guilt of human conscience.

What is repentance? What is it for? When is it needed? Is it required for our atonement or redemption or salvation or for God’s forgiveness? Important issues to understand I think.

12:9.5 (141.6) Your religion is becoming real because it is emerging from the slavery of fear and the bondage of superstition. Your philosophy struggles for emancipation from dogma and tradition. Your science is engaged in the agelong contest between truth and error while it fights for deliverance from the bondage of abstraction, the slavery of mathematics, and the relative blindness of mechanistic materialism.

12:9.6 (142.1) Mortal man has a spirit nucleus. The mind is a personal-energy system existing around a divine spirit nucleus and functioning in a material environment. Such a living relationship of personal mind and spirit constitutes the universe potential of eternal personality. Real trouble, lasting disappointment, serious defeat, or inescapable death can come only after self-concepts presume fully to displace the governing power of the central spirit nucleus, thereby disrupting the cosmic scheme of personality identity.

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Bradly, I am all for the Jesusonian gospel, and all for setting the facts straight concerning the fallacies of Judeo-Christian dogma and doctrines. And the word repentance definitely rings of that when I hear it or read it.

My only objection to what appears to me to be arguing and bickering is that the Master never set that example for us, and since you are a teacher you have a heightened responsibility to accurately reflect Jesus' sample, and some folks, myself included, have trouble understanding your tone and what appears to be a condescending attitude towards the younger tadpoles finding their way.

This has been something that has bothered me since I first came to this forum, one minute I benefit from one of your thorough explanations of a difficult to understand passage and the next minute I am scratching my head and wondering about the incongruent impatience you show with others.

It is the experiential that has value, and not the parse English vocabulary available to describe the experiential. Although evidently some wackos appear now and then on this forum in an attempt to throw some kind of doctrinal monkey wrench into the works, in general it appears that most of us are sincerely tadpoling our way forward.

Do we need to repent or show repentance? Of course not, that is abundantly clear in the Papers. Can we repent without feeling coerced by fear and guilt? I believe we can, but I most definitely agree that it isn't necessary to repent or show repentance in the traditional sense of the word.

So once again thanks for your teaching and explanations which have always been helpful and strengthening, I only mentioned the bickering (and it takes two to tango) because of the unnecessary negative influence it has on a public forum.


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pethuel wrote:
Bradly, I am all for the Jesusonian gospel, and all for setting the facts straight concerning the fallacies of Judeo-Christian dogma and doctrines. And the word repentance definitely rings of that when I hear it or read it.

My only objection to what appears to me to be arguing and bickering is that the Master never set that example for us, and since you are a teacher you have a heightened responsibility to accurately reflect Jesus' sample, and some folks, myself included, have trouble understanding your tone and what appears to be a condescending attitude towards the younger tadpoles finding their way.

This has been something that has bothered me since I first came to this forum, one minute I benefit from one of your thorough explanations of a difficult to understand passage and the next minute I am scratching my head and wondering about the incongruent impatience you show with others.

It is the experiential that has value, and not the parse English vocabulary available to describe the experiential. Although evidently some wackos appear now and then on this forum in an attempt to throw some kind of doctrinal monkey wrench into the works, in general it appears that most of us are sincerely tadpoling our way forward.

Do we need to repent or show repentance? Of course not, that is abundantly clear in the Papers. Can we repent without feeling coerced by fear and guilt? I believe we can, but I most definitely agree that it isn't necessary to repent or show repentance in the traditional sense of the word.

So once again thanks for your teaching and explanations which have always been helpful and strengthening, I only mentioned the bickering (and it takes two to tango) because of the unnecessary negative influence it has on a public forum.


Thanks for the clarification and compliments, and the reminder to be more gracious in all responses in every circumstance ...as our Lord certainly exemplified. It is certainly true that I am often clumsy and inelegant. But there is no reason to be harsh or crude.

I think of myself more as a student who teaches by sharing my own sense of wonder and discovery and excitement about the enhanced reality perspective provided by the Papers!! We are told our understanding gained as student is truly measured by our willingness and ability to teach what we learn as student. Which should encourage other students here to participate in the discussions and discovery we enjoy here.

Regarding the Master.... hmmmm.... certainly I too am but another tadpole here and make no claims as to my own wisdom or maturity. Jesus certainly did encourage robust debate and discussion and the inevitable disagreements of perspective and conclusion by the Apostles and disciples, often refusing to engage or interfere with such discourse and discord and sometimes using those various perspectives to illuminate complexities and the differing levels of appreciation and insight and experience by different students of truth.

Jesus especially and directly criticized and challenged those who distorted truth and demonstrated fear based superstitions and falsehoods regarding universe reality. And he also directly challenged those priests who beguiled and deceived God's children with fears and manipulations of tradition and doctrine. .

So.... I am a little confused by your perception of the Master and his teaching style. He never ignored falsehood or ignorance or prejudice. He certainly did have a much better grasp of how to present new perspective and appreciation for the truth. We can all learn much by such an example of wit, charm, sincerity, courage, and graciousness!!

I always found the Master’s occasional impatience to be so human, if rare. How often did he wonder aloud how long he must bear/abide/suffer the Apostles' inability to understand concepts and their frequent bickering about favoritism and preference in the Kingdom??!! The answer is well over a dozen times in text did Jesus express impatient exasperation out loud. Again am I a little confused by your recollection of this endearing trait described in both the Bible and the Urantia Book.

My "impatience" is, I hope, limited to those who come here to declare falsehoods and contradictions of the UB to the students here by so called experienced readers who claim their words represent the teachings in the UB but directly contradict those instead!! Especially any who might tell others what they should be believing or doing or criticizing the religious experience and relationship to the Spirit of others. I do try to be patient with all sincere students who come here to discover the UB... rather than those here to preach falsehoods about the text!!

Condescension is another, more important, issue. I hope I am never condescending to any sincere student, especially new readers. Certainly inappropriate if true.

I will likely remain impatient with preachers who condescend all others with their own supposed spiritual superiority and contradictions of text here who also claim great scholarship and understanding of the UB. We all know who that describes I think.

I don't tell others what to think or believe or do, nor do I measure other's spirituality, or complain about our world's epochal evolutionary progress. Personally, I hope only to discover and appreciate the UB and its own presentations of universe reality as accurately as possible with as little distortion and falsehood as possible, as related to our stated purpose here of studying this text and gaining understanding of its meaning and embracing its value for our personal religious experience and spiritual growth and philosophy of living.

My hope here is to share the joy of Divine Assurance and Cosmic Citizenship in the UB.

The reality perspective provided us is so enlightening and exhilarating to me... as I know it is to you. And I agree I have much yet to learn and improve upon.... no doubt... indeed.... hahaha!!!!

So glad you are here. :wink: :D :idea: :!: 8)


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138:7.1 (1543.4) Jesus had planned for a quiet missionary campaign of five months’ personal work. He did not tell the apostles how long this was to last; they worked from week to week. And early on this first day of the week, just as he was about to announce this to his twelve apostles, Simon Peter, James Zebedee, and Judas Iscariot came to have private converse with him. Taking Jesus aside, Peter made bold to say: “Master, we come at the behest of our associates to inquire whether the time is not now ripe to enter into the kingdom. And will you proclaim the kingdom at Capernaum, or are we to move on to Jerusalem? And when shall we learn, each of us, the positions we are to occupy with you in the establishment of the kingdom—” and Peter would have gone on asking further questions, but Jesus raised an admonitory hand and stopped him. And beckoning the other apostles standing near by to join them, Jesus said: “My little children, how long shall I bear with you! Have I not made it plain to you that my kingdom is not of this world? I have told you many times that I have not come to sit on David’s throne, and now how is it that you are inquiring which place each of you will occupy in the Father’s kingdom? Can you not perceive that I have called you as ambassadors of a spiritual kingdom? Do you not understand that soon, very soon, you are to represent me in the world and in the proclamation of the kingdom, even as I now represent my Father who is in heaven? Can it be that I have chosen you and instructed you as messengers of the kingdom, and yet you do not comprehend the nature and significance of this coming kingdom of divine pre-eminence in the hearts of men? My friends, hear me once more. Banish from your minds this idea that my kingdom is a rule of power or a reign of glory. Indeed, all power in heaven and on earth will presently be given into my hands, but it is not the Father’s will that we use this divine endowment to glorify ourselves during this age. In another age you shall indeed sit with me in power and glory, but it behooves us now to submit to the will of the Father and to go forth in humble obedience to execute his bidding on earth.”

138:7.2 (1544.1) Once more were his associates shocked, stunned. 

142:7.17 (1605.2) Jesus replied: “Thomas, Thomas,  how long before you will acquire the ability to listen with the ear of the spirit? How long will it be before you discern that this kingdom is a spiritual kingdom, and that my Father is also a spiritual being? Do you not understand that I am teaching you as spiritual children in the spirit family of heaven, of which the fatherhead is an infinite and eternal spirit? Will you not allow me to use the earth family as an illustration of divine relationships without so literally applying my teaching to material affairs? In your minds cannot you separate the spiritual realities of the kingdom from the material, social, economic, and political problems of the age? When I speak the language of the spirit, why do you insist on translating my meaning into the language of the flesh just because I presume to employ commonplace and literal relationships for purposes of illustration? My children, I implore that you cease to apply the teaching of the kingdom of the spirit to the sordid affairs of slavery, poverty, houses, and lands, and to the material problems of human equity and justice. These temporal matters are the concern of the men of this world, and while in a way they affect all men, you have been called to represent me in the world, even as I represent my Father. You are spiritual ambassadors of a spiritual kingdom, special representatives of the spirit Father. By this time it should be possible for me to instruct you as full-grown men of the spirit kingdom. Must I ever address you only as children? Will you never grow up in spirit perception? Nevertheless, I love you and will bear with you, even to the very end of our association in the flesh. And even then shall my spirit go before you into all the world.”

152:5.3 (1704.2) “How long shall I bear with you? Are you all slow of spiritual comprehension and deficient in living faith? All these months have I taught you the truths of the kingdom, and yet are you dominated by material motives instead of spiritual considerations. Have you not even read in the Scriptures where Moses exhorted the unbelieving children of Israel, saying: ‘Fear not, stand still and see the salvation of the Lord’? Said the singer: ‘Put your trust in the Lord.’ ‘Be patient, wait upon the Lord and be of good courage. He shall strengthen your heart.’ ‘Cast your burden on the Lord, and he shall sustain you. Trust him at all times and pour out your heart to him, for God is your refuge.’ ‘He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.’ ‘It is better to trust the Lord than to put confidence in human princes.’

Me here: Indeed!!! :wink:

I wonder who here recalls the raging debates over whether the Apostles would baptize believers? Or should they also anoint them with oil? Or the disagreements about the role of John's disciples? How about the rebuke of Mary, the mother of Jesus regarding her expectations and demands vs. the Master's own ministry and mission? How about the male chauvinism and objections and resistance to the new and elevated status of women in the Kingdom? How about the fights between apostles over who would be greatest in the new Kingdom? The washing of the feet episode at the Last Supper?? Perhaps we recall the anger and indignation of Jesus in the temple with the money changers and those who profit from fear and superstition and "repentance" and atonement??? Yes? No?

I can assure you Jesus was quite human!! He was so wise and eloquent however. Amazingly so. But tolerance of evil and error and superstition was not a habit of the Master. Both innocent as the dove and wise as the serpent. So comfortable within paradox and conflict!! What an example!!! But Jesus did not avoid conflict or shy from controversy or mutely stand for deception and manipulation and distortion of truth either. May we all learn therefrom and thereby!!

8) Bradly

Those who see no wolves see Iittle indeed!

140:9.3 (1584.2) Jesus advised them to take neither money nor extra clothing, saying, “The laborer is worthy of his hire.” And finally he said: “Behold I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves; be you therefore as wise as serpents and as harmless as doves. But take heed, for your enemies will bring you up before their councils, while in their synagogues they will castigate you. Before governors and rulers you will be brought because you believe this gospel, and your very testimony shall be a witness for me to them. And when they lead you to judgment, be not anxious about what you shall say, for the spirit of my Father indwells you and will at such a time speak through you. Some of you will be put to death, and before you establish the kingdom on earth, you will be hated by many peoples because of this gospel; but fear not; I will be with you, and my spirit shall go before you into all the world. And my Father’s presence will abide with you while you go first to the Jews, then to the gentiles.”

163:1.3 (1800.5) Before Jesus laid his hands upon the heads of the seventy to set them apart as gospel messengers, addressing them, he said: “The harvest is indeed plenteous, but the laborers are few; therefore I exhort all of you to pray that the Lord of the harvest will send still other laborers into his harvest. I am about to set you apart as messengers of the kingdom; I am about to send you to Jew and gentile as lambs among wolves. ...

178:1.7 (1930.4) Display wisdom and exhibit sagacity in your dealings with unbelieving civil rulers. By discretion show yourselves to be expert in ironing out minor disagreements and in adjusting trifling misunderstandings. In every possible way—in everything short of your spiritual allegiance to the rulers of the universe—seek to live peaceably with all men. Be you always as wise as serpents but as harmless as doves.

171:7.1 (1874.4) Jesus spread good cheer everywhere he went. He was full of grace and truth. His associates never ceased to wonder at the gracious words that proceeded out of his mouth. You can cultivate gracefulness, but graciousness is the aroma of friendliness which emanates from a love-saturated soul.

171:7.2 (1874.5) Goodness always compels respect, but when it is devoid of grace, it often repels affection. Goodness is universally attractive only when it is gracious. Goodness is effective only when it is attractive.



8) So much for a tadpole to learn!

pethuel says above: "My only objection to what appears to me to be arguing and bickering is that the Master never set that example for us, and since you are a teacher you have a heightened responsibility to accurately reflect Jesus' sample..."

:shock: :-s. I know of no mortal in history who deserves or measures up to such a comparison or expectation. Certainly do I fall far short of any such ideal. I wonder how the Apostles themselves rank on such a scale?? Hmmm....


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pethuel says above: "My only objection to what appears to me to be arguing and bickering is that the Master never set that example for us, and since you are a teacher you have a heightened responsibility to accurately reflect Jesus' sample..."

Busted! Sorry for that comment!


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In Paper 144 we are given a restatement of the colloquial “Lord’s Prayer” in Section 3 (interestingly, the midwayers give it the name “The Believer’s Prayer”). This prayer is the model that Jesus taught the Apostles to teach others, the one that he taught his brothers and sisters. In it there is the line “and forgive us every one of our debts.” I always thought that the use of “debts” was a curious choice of words compared to the more familiar “trespasses”. Over time it actually feels more natural to me, as in my personal experience I have found much meaning in the idea of accruing and reconciling my spiritual debts. Asking Father to forgive me of every one of my spiritual debts is the essence of repentance. While in truth he has already forgiven me, even before I asked, in order for me to experience this forgiveness, I must forgive others of their spiritual debts they’ve accrued with me. In my experience it is impossible to understand things like grace and mercy without this experience of forgiveness, and to initiate the experience, I must repent.

There are other very beautiful prayers in this Paper. I especially like the last one, and it so happens there is a line “Look down upon us in kindness and forgive us in mercy”.

I dont see the controversy here. How could asking Father for forgiveness be anything other than repentance?

If repentance isn’t necessary, then why would Jesus make it a feature of probably the most famous prayer of all time?

Don’t forget, it was Jesus who once asked out loud “Why do you call me good?”


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Greetings quil!! Always good to hear your voice!! :biggrin:

An interesting perspective. The "controversy" would be the definition of sin compared to evil/error and whether any formal plea for forgiveness is required for spiritization or circle progress or salvation or survival. The UB certainly does not teach that in my own opinion.

Your understanding of the prayer is interesting. I find the meaning to be a lesson to those who recite the prayer to hinge upon the term "AS".

Forgive our debts AS we forgive the debts of others. I cannot find or remember anything about "spiritual debts" ...what is that?

This is not a plea or request for forgiveness. It is a lesson, a teaching, about receiving what must be given, of reaping what is sown. Nothing needs to be known, said, or done to initiate forgiveness or mercy. Where in the Prodigal Son parable or in the love of any parent for any child do we find such a requirement?

Apparently, not everyone appreciates the important contrasts presented in the Papers regarding God's nature and our relationship with God as beloved children. My children are not required anything at all to "initiate " my love or forgiveness ...and neither do the children of God I do not think. I find these distinctions between the Jesusonian Gospel and the Paulinian Doctrines, and also the details of definition and nuance provided in the UB to be quite profound (personally) and of utmost importance to the perspective, philosophy, and understanding of reality for UB students. But that's just me (evidently). Oh well....

144:3.9 (1620.7) And forgive us every one our debts

144:3.10 (1620.8) As we also have forgiven our debtors.


188:4.9 (2017.4) All this concept of atonement and sacrificial salvation is rooted and grounded in selfishness. Jesus taught that service to one’s fellows is the highest concept of the brotherhood of spirit believers. Salvation should be taken for granted by those who believe in the fatherhood of God. The believer’s chief concern should not be the selfish desire for personal salvation but rather the unselfish urge to love and, therefore, serve one’s fellows even as Jesus loved and served mortal men.

188:4.10 (2017.5) Neither do genuine believers trouble themselves so much about the future punishment of sin. The real believer is only concerned about present separation from God. True, wise fathers may chasten their sons, but they do all this in love and for corrective purposes. They do not punish in anger, neither do they chastise in retribution.

188:4.11 (2017.6) Even if God were the stern and legal monarch of a universe in which justice ruled supreme, he certainly would not be satisfied with the childish scheme of substituting an innocent sufferer for a guilty offender.

188:4.12 (2017.7) The great thing about the death of Jesus, as it is related to the enrichment of human experience and the enlargement of the way of salvation, is not the fact of his death but rather the superb manner and the matchless spirit in which he met death.

188:4.13 (2017.8) This entire idea of the ransom of the atonement places salvation upon a plane of unreality; such a concept is purely philosophic. Human salvation is real; it is based on two realities which may be grasped by the creature’s faith and thereby become incorporated into individual human experience: the fact of the fatherhood of God and its correlated truth, the brotherhood of man. It is true, after all, that you are to be “forgiven your debts, even as you forgive your debtors.”

144:6.9 (1625.6) And then was it voted that, in case of John’s death, the apostles of Jesus would begin to baptize with water as the emblem of the baptism of the divine Spirit. As to whether or not repentance should be attached to the preaching of baptism was left optional; no decision was made binding upon the group. John’s apostles preached, “Repent and be baptized.” Jesus’ apostles proclaimed, “Believe and be baptized.”

138:8.8 (1545.9) Jesus made plain to his apostles the difference between the repentance of so-called good works as taught by the Jews and the change of mind by faith—the new birth—which he required as the price of admission to the kingdom. He taught his apostles that faith was the only requisite to entering the Father’s kingdom. John had taught them “repentance—to flee from the wrath to come.” Jesus taught, “Faith is the open door for entering into the present, perfect, and eternal love of God.” Jesus did not speak like a prophet, one who comes to declare the word of God. He seemed to speak of himself as one having authority. Jesus sought to divert their minds from miracle seeking to the finding of a real and personal experience in the satisfaction and assurance of the indwelling of God’s spirit of love and saving grace.

140:10.1 (1584.4) That evening while teaching in the house, for it had begun to rain, Jesus talked at great length, trying to show the twelve what they must be, not what they must do. They knew only a religion that imposed the doing of certain things as the means of attaining righteousness—salvation. But Jesus would reiterate, “In the kingdom you must be righteous in order to do the work.” Many times did he repeat, “Be you therefore perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect.” All the while was the Master explaining to his bewildered apostles that the salvation which he had come to bring to the world was to be had only by believing, by simple and sincere faith. Said Jesus: “John preached a baptism of repentance, sorrow for the old way of living. You are to proclaim the baptism of fellowship with God. Preach repentance to those who stand in need of such teaching, but to those already seeking sincere entrance to the kingdom, open the doors wide and bid them enter into the joyous fellowship of the sons of God.” But it was a difficult task to persuade these Galilean fishermen that, in the kingdom, being righteous, by faith, must precede doing righteousness in the daily life of the mortals of earth.


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pethuel wrote:
pethuel says above: "My only objection to what appears to me to be arguing and bickering is that the Master never set that example for us, and since you are a teacher you have a heightened responsibility to accurately reflect Jesus' sample..."

Busted! Sorry for that comment!


No worries. I try not to take myself too seriously. We are here to learn. I learn something by every comment and discussion... and argument!!

I wonder what you think about my take on the Master's own impatience, rare as it might be?

And his own comfort with conflict rather than its avoidance?

I find so many examples of his deliberate agitation and provocation and confrontation of the enemies of truth. The blind man that last week was a direct finger in the eye of the priesthood don't you think? So many others too. Jesus was never shy or accepting of the distortions of truth I don't think.

Glad you're here....and quil too!! I count you both as sincere students with a reality perspective I truly enjoy to hear. Thanks.

8) :biggrin: :wink: :idea:


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As to quil's use of the term "spiritual debts". Hmmmm..... I think we need to be very, very, very careful about our understanding and definition of "repentance". For it certainly congers up some very primitive superstitions about human guilt and fear based appeasements which are abhorrent, I think, and insulting to the true nature of God and our relationship to God.

Found these:

89:0.1 (974.1) PRIMITIVE man regarded himself as being in debt to the spirits, as standing in need of redemption. As the savages looked at it, in justice the spirits might have visited much more bad luck upon them. As time passed, this concept developed into the doctrine of sin and salvation. The soul was looked upon as coming into the world under forfeit—original sin. The soul must be ransomed; a scapegoat must be provided. The head-hunter, in addition to practicing the cult of skull worship, was able to provide a substitute for his own life, a scapeman.

89:0.2 (974.2) The savage was early possessed with the notion that spirits derive supreme satisfaction from the sight of human misery, suffering, and humiliation. At first, man was only concerned with sins of commission, but later he became exercised over sins of omission. And the whole subsequent sacrificial system grew up around these two ideas. This new ritual had to do with the observance of the propitiation ceremonies of sacrifice. Primitive man believed that something special must be done to win the favor of the gods; only advanced civilization recognizes a consistently even-tempered and benevolent God. Propitiation was insurance against immediate ill luck rather than investment in future bliss. And the rituals of avoidance, exorcism, coercion, and propitiation all merge into one another.

89:4.2 (977.4) Early in the evolution of religion there existed two conceptions of the sacrifice: the idea of the gift sacrifice, which connoted the attitude of thanksgiving, and the debt sacrifice, which embraced the idea of redemption. Later there developed the notion of substitution.

89:4.6 (978.3) Surrounded by so many sensitive spirits and grasping gods, primitive man was face to face with such a host of creditor deities that it required all the priests, ritual, and sacrifices throughout an entire lifetime to get him out of spiritual debt. The doctrine of original sin, or racial guilt, started every person out in serious debt to the spirit powers.

Hmmmm..... spiritual debts?? Redemption?? You see the problem.

=; :idea: 8)


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Brad,

I mean this with as much respect as I can convey: You’re overthinking this, man.

If you truly wrong someone, do you not in your heart feel the obligation to apologize, even you had no intention to wrong them? That’s a debt. That’s why we say “I owe you an apology”. It could be merely social, but any substantial wrong is also going to affect spirit realities.

Our Father is a person. He seeks a living and loving relationship with us. He is God, we are human. He is perfect, and we mess up… a lot! Sometimes our messes are unintentional, which is evil. Sometimes we act intentionally against his wishes, which is sin.

He does not require an apology from us to love or forgive us. But we are human, and by our very nature we ourselves require that we apologize (repent) before we can ever experience that forgiveness. It’s just one of those things about being a creature.

If you crossed me, and I forgave you, how could you ever experience my forgiveness in your heart if you never seek it to begin with?

To me it’s like a spiritual law akin to a law of physics. Forgiveness must sought and bestowed in order to be received. That’s the nature of spiritual reality.

What Jesus wanted was for us to look even beyond redemption into the higher plain of assurance. The Jesusonian Gospel doesn’t do away with repentance, but it does de-emphasize it so that we put it in its proper place. Repentance is a stepping stone in our journey towards living faith.


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Well...as a student of the UB and within this study group who are gathered in study to discover, learn, understand, and apply the teachings, I am very keen to find meanings and embrace related values to gain therefrom and thereby.

So I am very interested in what you mean by "spiritual debts" and how repentance is required to "initiate" forgiveness.

Thanks.

I wonder how my loyalty to God and my humility related to God’s goodness and greatness and my smallness in comparison and my trust in God’s affectionate guidance compares to a constant state of guilt, contrition, and confession?

What if we simply trust and have faith in our relationship with God I wonder?


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fanofVan wrote:
I wonder what you think about my take on the Master's own impatience, rare as it might be?


“James, do you trust me?” And of course James replied, “Yes, Master, I trust you with all my heart.” Then said Jesus: “James, if you trust me more, you will be less impatient with your brethren. 192.2:8


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144:6.9 (1625.6) And then was it voted that, in case of John’s death, the apostles of Jesus would begin to baptize with water as the emblem of the baptism of the divine Spirit. As to whether or not repentance should be attached to the preaching of baptism was left optional; no decision was made binding upon the group. John’s apostles preached, “Repent and be baptized.” Jesus’ apostles proclaimed, “Believe and be baptized.”

1. Divine Forgiveness

174:1.1 (1898.1) For several days Peter and James had been engaged in discussing their differences of opinion about the Master’s teaching regarding the forgiveness of sin. They had both agreed to lay the matter before Jesus, and Peter embraced this occasion as a fitting opportunity for securing the Master’s counsel. Accordingly, Simon Peter broke in on the conversation dealing with the differences between praise and worship, by asking: “Master, James and I are not in accord regarding your teachings having to do with the forgiveness of sin. James claims you teach that the Father forgives us even before we ask him, and I maintain that repentance and confession must precede the forgiveness. Which of us is right? what do you say?”

174:1.2 (1898.2) After a short silence Jesus looked significantly at all four and answered: “My brethren, you err in your opinions because you do not comprehend the nature of those intimate and loving relations between the creature and the Creator, between man and God. You fail to grasp that understanding sympathy which the wise parent entertains for his immature and sometimes erring child. It is indeed doubtful whether intelligent and affectionate parents are ever called upon to forgive an average and normal child. Understanding relationships associated with attitudes of love effectively prevent all those estrangements which later necessitate the readjustment of repentance by the child with forgiveness by the parent.

174:1.3 (1898.3) “A part of every father lives in the child. The father enjoys priority and superiority of understanding in all matters connected with the child-parent relationship. The parent is able to view the immaturity of the child in the light of the more advanced parental maturity, the riper experience of the older partner. With the earthly child and the heavenly Father, the divine parent possesses infinity and divinity of sympathy and capacity for loving understanding. Divine forgiveness is inevitable; it is inherent and inalienable in God’s infinite understanding, in his perfect knowledge of all that concerns the mistaken judgment and erroneous choosing of the child. Divine justice is so eternally fair that it unfailingly embodies understanding mercy.

174:1.4 (1898.4) “When a wise man understands the inner impulses of his fellows, he will love them. And when you love your brother, you have already forgiven him. This capacity to understand man’s nature and forgive his apparent wrongdoing is Godlike. If you are wise parents, this is the way you will love and understand your children, even forgive them when transient misunderstanding has apparently separated you. The child, being immature and lacking in the fuller understanding of the depth of the child-father relationship, must frequently feel a sense of guilty separation from a father’s full approval, but the true father is never conscious of any such separation. Sin is an experience of creature consciousness; it is not a part of God’s consciousness.

174:1.5 (1898.5) “Your inability or unwillingness to forgive your fellows is the measure of your immaturity, your failure to attain adult sympathy, understanding, and love. You hold grudges and nurse vengefulness in direct proportion to your ignorance of the inner nature and true longings of your children and your fellow beings. Love is the outworking of the divine and inner urge of life. It is founded on understanding, nurtured by unselfish service, and perfected in wisdom.”

Me here: I really don't feel such a "guilty sense of separation". I feel sublimely cared for and affectionately protected.

8)


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Brad,

Pasting a bunch of quotes together (repeatedly) and emphasizing certain lines does not a conversation make. I have read the same book as you.

You won’t find a precise definition for “spiritual debt” in the revelation because no such definition is necessary. It’s a self-evident and self-contained concept and can be understood plainly.

I never said we have to initiate God’s forgiveness. It’s already there, a gift extant in eternity. I did say that, as a time-bound creature, I must initiate the experience of receiving this gift by first seeking it!

You brought up the Prodigal Son. What did he resolve to say to his father when he returned? What was the attitude of his soul?


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You don't find me conversational...? ...or wordy and opinionated enough??!!

:wink: :lol:

So.... we do not need to initiate forgiveness? But we must initiate the experience of forgiveness to receive it?

And the UB does not teach that we have spiritual debts but you have opinions and beliefs that we must account for and reconcile such debts? You say above: "...in my personal experience I have found much meaning in the idea of accruing and reconciling my spiritual debts."


And you ask: "If repentance isn’t necessary, then why would Jesus make it a feature of probably the most famous prayer of all time?"

Me here: It is my opinion, and I'm just being conversational here, that the Lord's Prayer says nothing at all about repentance. But includes an important teaching about needing to be forgiving of others to receive forgiveness. That is not repentance by any definition of the term.

Repentance is not needed for salvation or the birth of soul or circle progress or spiritization or survival or forgiveness or to initiate or to receive forgiveness. None of that. Faith and trust is all that is needed. Repentance is only for the restoration of relationship by those who commit deliberate and intentional sin and rebellion and disloyalty. Not a failure to be perfect or achieve highest ideals. Not immaturity. Or confusion. Or uncertainty. Or self centerdness.
Or honest doubts.
8)


Last edited by fanofVan on Wed Jun 30, 2021 10:11 am +0000, edited 2 times in total.

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