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 Post subject: Re: Suffering
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fanofVan wrote:

Is there suffering in heaven? See above. Not much. Some perhaps but not physical in source or nature. We begin in heaven right where we leave off here so far as spirituality and animal nature legacy goes. So anxiety and self importance will still affect us I think. There are still consequences for our motives and intentions and priorities and choices. We will not awaken as perfected and sainted beings who are magically enlightened somehow. There is still work to do and progress to make by our choices. We will still reap what we sow. So...yes, suffering will still attend us in some ways.


Good question, Bradly. Paper 47 implies the greatest of all suffering may be 'in heaven.' Consider the parents whose beloved child awakens in the probationary nursery, and subsequently rejects the eternal career. On Urantia, when a reader's child dies, he or she knows the child will resurrect. Not so when their offspring chooses permanent death. And isn't it likely, many family and friends will quit along the way to Paradise, give up and retire into oblivion? Suicide is still a choice, at least until fusion, no? In such cases, there's nothing to do but mourn. Mourning is only cure for such profound suffering. Physical suffering is short-lived, soul suffering probably is not.

47:2.7 (532.5) When material life has run its course, if no choice has been made for the ascendant life, or if these children of time definitely decide against the Havona adventure, death automatically terminates their probationary careers. There is no adjudication of such cases; there is no resurrection from such a second death. They simply become as though they had not been.

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fanofVan wrote:
Evidently, it is not so unusual for a bestowal Son to be unfairly and most cruelly treated by the natives of an evolutionary world. See below...."When Bestowal Sons are not put to death....". This treatment is not a requirement and does not always happen and our Michael Son was most horribly abused and suffered in so many ways. Besides betrayal, torture, false accusations, public humiliation, and execution by a most gruesome means, Jesus also suffered from parents who misunderstood and restrained him, the tragic death of his dad leaving him to assume burdens and responsibilities no teen should suffer, that leaving him suddenly jilted and disappointed from his youthful prime and expectations, and he suffered from misplaced expectations of his mother and his Apostles regarding his ministry and mission no matter how clearly and redundantly he worked to set and manage those misguided material kingly expectations.


That's quite interesting and may give us some insight into the character of The Universal Father and his Creator Sons. I'd be willing to guess that most of the Creator Sons would choose to experience their final bestowal on a planet where prophets or other ambassadors of the heavenly realm are regularly put to death or suffer great injustice. In doing so their mission would have powerful auxiliary goals:

1. Provide the human society and other beings with a very much upgraded model and example of ideals in our regard for others, especially if others live a life cultivating truth, beauty and goodness - the attributes of god.
2. Make clear the status of rebel and apostate rulers.
3. Experience the trials and trauma of both the average mortal and those who cultivate and teach how to live in truth, beauty and goodness.
4. Make clear who is the absolute authority and sovereign of the universe.


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rick warren wrote:
fanofVan wrote:

Is there suffering in heaven? See above. Not much. Some perhaps but not physical in source or nature. We begin in heaven right where we leave off here so far as spirituality and animal nature legacy goes. So anxiety and self importance will still affect us I think. There are still consequences for our motives and intentions and priorities and choices. We will not awaken as perfected and sainted beings who are magically enlightened somehow. There is still work to do and progress to make by our choices. We will still reap what we sow. So...yes, suffering will still attend us in some ways.


Good question, Bradly. Paper 47 implies the greatest of all suffering may be 'in heaven.' Consider the parents whose beloved child awakens in the probationary nursery, and subsequently rejects the eternal career. On Urantia, when a reader's child dies, he or she knows the child will resurrect. Not so when their offspring chooses permanent death. And isn't it likely, many family and friends will quit along the way to Paradise, give up and retire into oblivion? Suicide is still a choice, at least until fusion, no? In such cases, there's nothing to do but mourn. Mourning is only cure for such profound suffering. Physical suffering is short-lived, soul suffering probably is not.

47:2.7 (532.5) When material life has run its course, if no choice has been made for the ascendant life, or if these children of time definitely decide against the Havona adventure, death automatically terminates their probationary careers. There is no adjudication of such cases; there is no resurrection from such a second death. They simply become as though they had not been.

***


Perhaps. For UB "readers", which is a very small population so far, such a irrevocable choice might be our worst suffering. I don't think that the worst suffering by Jesus was physical or material (although those were great indeed).

I do think the suffering in this life is more common and more acute due to ignorance and doubts and confusions about reality. What of the loss of watching one's own child die of malnutrition or starvation or disease or violence without knowing God's love and mercy? Or the uncertainty of eternity or Divine affection and forgiveness and mercy?

I think the fact and experience of awakening in heaven eliminates the worst forms of suffering.

And NO I do NOT think it likely that many, many family and friends will reject survival and the eternal adventure. What a very peculiar belief for any "reader" to proclaim here. Such a source of doubt and fear is a very sad form of suffering for you Brother. Common among Christians but quite inappropriate I think for Revelation readers and believers. Sad really.

The unequivocal and ultimate knowing rejection of reality is not common I do not think. Consider the heavenly abode and estate...so much love and example and knowledge and friendly help and guidance and patient ministry and brotherhood. Hmmmm.....

Our understanding of the Mansion Worlds is quite different I think. While we arrive in heaven as we left Urantia related to wisdom and spirit progress, still are the Mansion Worlds so very different in culture. We are taught that the very fact of survival and reawakening is a startling shift in perception and perspective.

We lose all animal legacy by Mansion World 3. Imagine no fear or anxiety or animosity!! I don't think your fears and anxieties Rick are sourced by or supported in the Papers. Imagine awakening to realize there is a heaven and you are there and you can see angels and are immediately embraced by kindness and friendly helpers and guides - our Morontia Companions and Pilgrim Guardians and Mansion World Teachers - in the midst of glory and grandeur and beauty and peace!!! Heaven is filled with happiness and mirth!! You think many reject this reality? Why???? Hmmmmm…...

47:3.7 (533.5) On mansion world number one (or another in case of advanced status) you will resume your intellectual training and spiritual development at the exact level whereon they were interrupted by death. Between the time of planetary death or translation and resurrection on the mansion world, mortal man gains absolutely nothing aside from experiencing the fact of survival. You begin over there right where you leave off down here.

47:4.5 (535.1) Your Adjuster memory remains fully intact as you ascend the morontia life. Those mental associations that were purely animalistic and wholly material naturally perished with the physical brain, but everything in your mental life which was worth while, and which had survival value, was counterparted by the Adjuster and is retained as a part of personal memory all the way through the ascendant career. You will be conscious of all your worth-while experiences as you advance from one mansion world to another and from one section of the universe to another—even to Paradise.

47:4.8 (535.4) Mansonia number two more specifically provides for the removal of all phases of intellectual conflict and for the cure of all varieties of mental disharmony. The effort to master the significance of morontia mota, begun on the first mansion world, is here more earnestly continued. ...

48:4.1 (547.4) Joyful mirth and the smile-equivalent are as universal as music. There is a morontial and a spiritual equivalent of mirth and laughter. The ascendant life is about equally divided between work and play—freedom from assignment.

What a glorious life to come for all!! The very purpose of the Mansion Worlds is the continued survival and spiritual progression of mortals. Are we to think that such environments and beings and plans and purposes and examples and caring, patient, loving helpers often fail at their appointed work??? What might make any reader think, believe, or say such a thing I wonder???

Perplexing.




8)


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 Post subject: Re: Suffering
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Thanks Fan, for focusing on a universal condition of being an organic being in a material world. Suffering is something we all share, but it is far more than a burden, or a cross to bear.

“ The Creators are possessed of full power to make Urantia a veritable paradise, but such an Eden would not contribute to the development of those strong, noble, and experienced characters which the Gods are so surely forging out on your world between the anvils of necessity and the hammers of anguish”.

Jesus is the sublime example for bearing suffering while holding fast to trust in the Father's will and purpose. But didn't he also know great joy? We can't avoid suffering in one form or another, but have we joy in our lives too? I believe it is something of a duty to delight in the things we experience that partake of goodness, beauty, and truth. We remember our pain and suffering, but do we count our blessings?

Maryjo, thank you for sharing your deeply personal story. This “technique” of offering It up reminds me of something G. Gurdjieff introduced in his lectures: conscious labor and intentional suffering. This is perhaps an antidote to the suffering that comes automatically to everyone who lives in this world, but it is not an easy thing to grasp. What is meant by “intentional” suffering? Why would we do that?

Perhaps it's fitting to explore this concept, or actual technique, in the thread on Self Knowledge. It's in this context that we might find meaning.


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Link to topic "Self Knowledge":

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5669

:wink: :biggrin: 8)


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 Post subject: Re: Suffering
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To consciously suffer but yet not become self centered in the effort requires empathy I think...the suffering of others and the desire to reduce such suffering. Such empathy, if enlightened, becomes more than empathy for some or certain others and expands to include ALL others. 

It becomes a sympathetic understanding of the 'condition' of our universally shared suffering. It becomes a source of community and a sharing of our universal humanity as experience. It results in tribal and familial affection and understanding kindness toward others...all others.

Thus is the circuitry of love connecting the one to the all and the all to the one. It was in this way that the Master first approached each person upon his path...with a knowing understanding and empathy towards their very personal sources and forms of suffering...no matter how that manifested in perspective, attitude, or behavior, he looked for the hope and ideals and spirit at the core of BEING to encourage and feed.

We share the light in common. We also share the experiential distortions of that light. Jesus saw past the distortions I think and shared his light with the light within others. By sharing light with light, we soothe and reduce the distortions or the suffering due to such distortions.

117:6.9 (1289.2) Men all too often forget that God is the greatest experience in human existence. Other experiences are limited in their nature and content, but the experience of God has no limits save those of the creature’s comprehension capacity, and this very experience is in itself capacity enlarging. When men search for God, they are searching for everything. When they find God, they have found everything. The search for God is the unstinted bestowal of love attended by amazing discoveries of new and greater love to be bestowed.

117:6.10 (1289.3) All true love is from God, and man receives the divine affection as he himself bestows this love upon his fellows. Love is dynamic. It can never be captured; it is alive, free, thrilling, and always moving. Man can never take the love of the Father and imprison it within his heart. The Father’s love can become real to mortal man only by passing through that man’s personality as he in turn bestows this love upon his fellows. The great circuit of love is from the Father, through sons to brothers, and hence to the Supreme. The love of the Father appears in the mortal personality by the ministry of the indwelling Adjuster. Such a God-knowing son reveals this love to his universe brethren, and this fraternal affection is the essence of the love of the Supreme.


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The questions again...some of which have been somewhat addressed:

Does suffering benefit us somehow? If so, then how? When does suffering end? How does it end? When? Is there suffering in heaven? Does anyone ever suffer forever? What is the cure for suffering?

How is the suffering of innocents fair? Or how does it become fair and equitable over time? Or how does it benefit us? Is there reward ultimately for suffering? Are there actual advantages and meaning and value which result from our suffering? How is wisdom and enlightenment and perfecting affected by suffering? How is the world and the universe affected by suffering?

Let us consider this last set of related questions. We are taught that evolutionary and experiential life in-time is for the perfecting of the imperfect by the freewill choice of each personality born or created in time and imperfection. THIS is the very purpose of time and the plan and process created by the Creators and First Source and Center.

It is immature and blind to ask "Why is there suffering?" when one understands the plan for and purpose of perfecting the imperfect!! How could there possibly be no suffering??!! Consider the objective. All that is imperfect and weak and impure and unreliable and disloyal and untested and incomplete and inadequate and immature and inexperienced and incapable and ignorant and blind and self important and not yet forged and not tempered is not and cannot be perfect.

All of time is about perfecting. The potential of freewill, personality, and experience to develop wisdom and to choose perfecting and to realize truth, beauty, and goodness in both experience and our expressions of that reality experience is to actualize new levels of perfection...perfection achieved by the decisions and choices and actions (experience) of imperfect freewill personality in time.

To focus too intently upon suffering, whether our own or that of others even, tends to blind us and obscure the actual causes and results and very purpose of suffering. We are told early humans do not even think unless hungry or in pain...suffering.

Tools for hunting, gathering, planting, building come only to relieve suffering. Cooperation with others, community, trade, specialization, towns?? Progressive responses to relieve and reduce human suffering! Medicine, mass production, education, music, art, science? To reduce suffering. We act collectively to reduce personal suffering...our own and other's.

And if we don't? More suffering for longer by more people. And what motive best serves this reality? Love of others delivers perfecting progress best and fastest!! Suffering lasts longer and is more acute by acts of self importance. That's a fact. Deal with it. Learn that. Make better choices for better reasons and watch suffering subside and retreat.

Suffering has a purpose. It also has a cause. And it also has a solution. A simple solution. Not easy...but simple. Love one another. The greatest good for the greatest number is also the best for the each as well as for the all. How so?

In two ways...first, the individual is always eventually and ultimately best served when all others also are motivated by love of others. Always. Also...we are wired for reality response...which means our true happiness and joy and contentment and all the fruits of the Spirit only come to us in response to our embrace and expressions of truth, beauty, and goodness - LOVE!!!

103:5.5 (1134.3) Human happiness is achieved only when the ego desire of the self and the altruistic urge of the higher self (divine spirit) are co-ordinated and reconciled by the unified will of the integrating and supervising personality. The mind of evolutionary man is ever confronted with the intricate problem of refereeing the contest between the natural expansion of emotional impulses and the moral growth of unselfish urges predicated on spiritual insight—genuine religious reflection.

103:5.6 (1134.4) The attempt to secure equal good for the self and for the greatest number of other selves presents a problem which cannot always be satisfactorily resolved in a time-space frame. Given an eternal life, such antagonisms can be worked out, but in one short human life they are incapable of solution. Jesus referred to such a paradox when he said: “Whosoever shall save his life shall lose it, but whosoever shall lose his life for the sake of the kingdom, shall find it.”

103:5.7 (1134.5) The pursuit of the ideal—the striving to be Godlike—is a continuous effort before death and after. The life after death is no different in the essentials than the mortal existence. Everything we do in this life which is good contributes directly to the enhancement of the future life. Real religion does not foster moral indolence and spiritual laziness by encouraging the vain hope of having all the virtues of a noble character bestowed upon one as a result of passing through the portals of natural death. True religion does not belittle man’s efforts to progress during the mortal lease on life. Every mortal gain is a direct contribution to the enrichment of the first stages of the immortal survival experience.

103:5.8 (1134.6) It is fatal to man’s idealism when he is taught that all of his altruistic impulses are merely the development of his natural herd instincts. But he is ennobled and mightily energized when he learns that these higher urges of his soul emanate from the spiritual forces that indwell his mortal mind.

103:5.9 (1134.7) It lifts man out of himself and beyond himself when he once fully realizes that there lives and strives within him something which is eternal and divine. And so it is that a living faith in the superhuman origin of our ideals validates our belief that we are the sons of God and makes real our altruistic convictions, the feelings of the brotherhood of man.

103:5.10 (1134.8) Man, in his spiritual domain, does have a free will. Mortal man is neither a helpless slave of the inflexible sovereignty of an all-powerful God nor the victim of the hopeless fatality of a mechanistic cosmic determinism. Man is most truly the architect of his own eternal destiny.

God created that which is and those who are perfect. His Paradise Creator Sons have created the universes of time and filled them with imperfect beings, who are each given personality, mind, freewill, and spirit by Paradise Deity, for the adventure of perfecting.

So how is perfecting achieved by the imperfect? By the experience of adversity. Conflict. Dilemma and paradox. Perplexion and confusions. Problems and puzzles to solve. Disappointments and failure. Resolutions that require teamwork and collaborative cooperation. Right and wrong. Good choices and better choices. Outcomes of choices. Unintended outcomes as well as the intended ones sometimes. Foolishness and wisdom.

Pain and suffering are not desirable but they are inherently vital parts of the process. The avoidance and reduction and elimination of pain and suffering are the hamner and anvil and fire and water and steam of the forge of perfecting the imperfect by the freewill choices of the imperfect.

Perfection is not and cannot be required or forced upon the imperfect and also be chosen by freewill. Experiential wisdom is a great prize in the universe of universes!! There is no substitute or equal! Experiential wisdom cannot be given or bestowed one to another. There is only one way to acquire and achieve experiential wisdom.

The personal religious experience delivers first the perfecting and purification of motive and intention and priorities long before experiential wisdom arrives. But the fruits of the Spirit arrive to us and our own suffering is relieved by the very faith experience that purifies our motive and philosophy of living that expresses that religious experience.

Or so I understand the teachings.

Bradly. 8)


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How is wisdom and enlightenment and perfecting affected by suffering? How is the world and the universe affected by suffering?

I think suffering retards AND accelerates wisdom, enlightenment, and perfecting - BOTH ...or may do either and therefore does both. How so?

When the focus is on the suffering itself then suffering is an obstacle to progress. When the focus turns to the causes and solutions to suffering then suffering accelerates progress.

There are many different ways to reduce and eliminate suffering. Many methods and tools have been invented and improved which reduce human suffering. Many of those in history also can be instruments to inflict or which result in suffering still...and again. Is a knife a tool or a weapon? Of course it is both...or either. The knife does not decide or choose which it is...we do.

Ultimately only love conquers and vanquishes suffering...or can. The love of God, the love for God, the love of others, the love for one another....only this love and wisdom can truly and effectively reduce and eliminate suffering.

Scientific and material progress delivers many marvelous and wonderful devices to reduce many forms of human suffering, all of which also deliver new forms of suffering to endure and overcome. But when such devices and means are administered and shared in love for others and one another, then does suffering truly lessen and do er evolve and progress in wisdom.

Even without the whispering voice of the Spirit within, we should still learn this simple fact and truth that provides so many profoundly obvious proofs...love ends suffering and delivers happiness...to the each and for the all. The more we love others, tha more happiness we have. The more we love and serve one another, the happier we all become! And the less we each and all suffer....

I wonder if this current planetary crisis of a pandemic caused by covid19 will teach us more about how best to reduce this and all other sources of human suffering? Science is only one way to address and arrest the suffering of victims and their families. Social/governmental systems and business/industrial mechanisms are also responding. All must work together and demonstrate cooperative resolve, creativity, experience, insight, and wisdom to end this threat and the suffering it causes.

But only love will truly make those successful in functional results and realities over time. Science and technology and government snd industry can never provide or replace loving service, kindness, and goodness to one another. That we must each choose. And that is the choice that moves individuals and our world forward toward our personal and planetary destiny.

Or so I understand the teachings.... 8) Bradly


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I was just reading this in the section: The Almighty Supreme. A lot to ponder. The purpose behind it is vast! I think I'm beginning to understand, God help me.


116:0.1 (1268.1) IF MAN recognized that his Creators—his immediate supervisors—while being divine were also finite, and that the God of time and space was an evolving and nonabsolute Deity, then would the inconsistencies of temporal inequalities cease to be profound religious paradoxes. No longer would religious faith be prostituted to the promotion of social smugness in the fortunate while serving only to encourage stoical resignation in the unfortunate victims of social deprivation.

116:0.2 (1268.2) When viewing the exquisitely perfect spheres of Havona, it is both reasonable and logical to believe they were made by a perfect, infinite, and absolute Creator. But that same reason and logic would compel any honest being, when viewing the turmoil, imperfections, and inequities of Urantia, to conclude that your world had been made by, and was being managed by, Creators who were subabsolute, preinfinite, and other than perfect.

116:0.3 (1268.3) Experiential growth implies creature-Creator partnership—God and man in association. Growth is the earmark of experiential Deity: Havona did not grow; Havona is and always has been; it is existential like the everlasting Gods who are its source. But growth characterizes the grand universe.

116:0.4 (1268.4) The Almighty Supreme is a living and evolving Deity of power and personality. His present domain, the grand universe, is also a growing realm of power and personality. His destiny is perfection, but his present experience encompasses the elements of growth and incomplete status.


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Anxiety, fear, real and invented suffering, the great mysteries of life....all give confirming evidence of the supernatural. Such primitive superstitions open the door to the evolution of personal religion and social mythology.

86:1.2 (950.4) The limited intellectual horizon of the savage so concentrates the attention upon chance that luck becomes a constant factor in his life. Primitive Urantians struggled for existence, not for a standard of living; they lived lives of peril in which chance played an important role. The constant dread of unknown and unseen calamity hung over these savages as a cloud of despair which effectively eclipsed every pleasure; they lived in constant dread of doing something that would bring bad luck. Superstitious savages always feared a run of good luck; they viewed such good fortune as a certain harbinger of calamity.

86:1.3 (950.5) This ever-present dread of bad luck was paralyzing. Why work hard and reap bad luck—nothing for something—when one might drift along and encounter good luck—something for nothing? Unthinking men forget good luck—take it for granted—but they painfully remember bad luck.

86:1.4 (950.6) Early man lived in uncertainty and in constant fear of chance—bad luck. Life was an exciting game of chance; existence was a gamble. It is no wonder that partially civilized people still believe in chance and evince lingering predispositions to gambling. Primitive man alternated between two potent interests: the passion of getting something for nothing and the fear of getting nothing for something. And this gamble of existence was the main interest and the supreme fascination of the early savage mind.

86:1.5 (951.1) The later herders held the same views of chance and luck, while the still later agriculturists were increasingly conscious that crops were immediately influenced by many things over which man had little or no control. The farmer found himself the victim of drought, floods, hail, storms, pests, and plant diseases, as well as heat and cold. And as all of these natural influences affected individual prosperity, they were regarded as good luck or bad luck.

86:1.6 (951.2) This notion of chance and luck strongly pervaded the philosophy of all ancient peoples. Even in recent times in the Wisdom of Solomon it is said: “I returned and saw that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither bread to the wise, nor riches to men of understanding, nor favor to men of skill; but fate and chance befall them all. For man knows not his fate; as fishes are taken in an evil net, and as birds are caught in a snare, so are the sons of men snared in an evil time when it falls suddenly upon them.”

2. The Personification of Chance

86:2.1 (951.3) Anxiety was a natural state of the savage mind. When men and women fall victims to excessive anxiety, they are simply reverting to the natural estate of their far-distant ancestors; and when anxiety becomes actually painful, it inhibits activity and unfailingly institutes evolutionary changes and biologic adaptations. Pain and suffering are essential to progressive evolution.

8)


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