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 Post subject: Re: Adam & Laotta
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Riktare wrote:
76:4.2 (850.8 ) Eve did not suffer pain in childbirth; neither did the early evolutionary races. Only the mixed races produced by the union of evolutionary man with the Nodites and later with the Adamites suffered the severe pangs of childbirth.

Why would that be the case? Possibly the geometry and constitution of the reproductive systems of the different types of races was originally quite different.


yeah there aren't a lot of fossils but certainly brain size increased and at some point birth canal shape and alignment requiring fetal rotation during birth evolved and that's thought to have originated with homo sapiens ~200kya (nodite era)

source: The evolution of the human pelvis: changing adaptations to bipedalism, obstetrics and thermoregulation


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 Post subject: Re: Adam & Laotta
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fanofVan wrote:
Rick...you say your post is speculative...and yet you posted:

"It seems most reasonable of all opinions, that they both realized the risk and accepted it--willingly. What do you think of that theory?"

There is a presumption of "the risk" in your post which makes your speculation a claim...a claim of risk - even a mortality risk, a risk of death.

This presumption and claim has zero text or logic support provided by you or the original poster. False or faulty premise unerringly results in false conclusions...and claims.

Your own wording here elevates speculation and transforms it into claims of fact...which are fictional or at least unsupported allegations. You should acknowledge that and say so at the other site in the name of objectivity and accuracy. IMO.

Cheers! :wink:


Hi Bradley,

You're right, the risk is presumed. But not without some basis, given Adam's System renown anatomical expertise, and Laotta's 'brilliance.' Prohibition of ever procreating with Adam or Eve may be in place to prevent such tragedies, among other reasons.

The Association's old forum is where this line of speculation began. Were you already a member in 2011? Thought it might be useful to consider the words of the original poster. She wrote them during the OPAD presentation of Paper 75 (the default). The old forum is an open-to-the-public archive still. Here is the post (and link to it):

Posted 06 October 2011 - 03:09 PM

"There's a big difference between what Eve did and what Adam did. Adam actually committed murder. He had to have known that there was no way for laotta to survive the birth of such an enormous child. Adam was eight feet tall and not at all compatible with the size of the Nodites. The baby had to be bigger than the usual eight pounds that we consider normal. In essence, he was sentencing this young girl to a cruel death of the worst kind.

And I can't believe he decided to leave the Garden of Eden to the savages to destroy. What was the matter with this guy? Seriously. And all this knowing that it meant default. He was not at all beguiled. He knew everything he was doing.

I also think that it was Eve's sense of loneliness that tricked her into thinking no one was watching her at all times. There really was no privacy. The Serapatatia conversations were supposedly "confidential." This should serve as a warning to me since I often feel alone in the world, no one watching me, no one hearing my "confidential" conversations. Adam and Eve are probably reading my posts thinking, "doesn't she know that her posts are not confidential? Seriously. What is the matter with her?"

It's true, though. I too should never think that anything is private or confidential. Afterall, this book is the 5th epochal revelation. The 5th epochal revelation is just as important as the mission of Adam and Eve, which was the 2nd epochal revelation. We shouldn't assume that we aren't being watched at all times.

Edited by Midsoniter woman, 06 October 2011 - 03:12 PM.

http://urantia.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/1156-paper-75-the-default-of-adam-and-eve/?p=19562

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 Post subject: Re: Adam & Laotta
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maryjo606 wrote:
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Do you have an opinion about the reason mixing creates labor pain?


Well, Rick, I really don't - although I have thought about it. I know this might be too eerie a comparison, but I remember an old movie called "The Island of Dr Moreau" where this mad scientist tried to cross men with animals through some sort of scientific process of grafting - not normal procreation. The resultant creature was part man, part beast, and they suffered terribly by having been made partially intelligent, so that the truth dawned on them that they were really animals with devastating limitations. It was hurtful to them and eventually, the whole island, and the experiment was destroyed by these creatures - in fire, I think.

I just bring it up because I think there's something inherently painful about introducing higher pattern into a lower being...whether it's through this childbearing process, or whether it's the struggle that we experience by learning higher spiritual truth - which often comes in the midst of painful adversity.

Now, please do not misunderstand. I am not likening Adam to a mad scientist, or to us as unintelligent animals (although we really are animal-origin beings). It's just that we are pretty low on the totem pole of evolutionary beings of spirit potential. And injecting the evolutionary races with these higher elements of potential may be the cause of pain in several areas.

This is only my crude attempt to understand this phenomenon. One might think that over generations of time, that the painful process of childbirth might have been eased. And for some, it has eased. But it has not eased for most women. Neither has the painful process of discovering and activating higher spiritual truth eased.

Some women experience less (and some no) pain, though, and there are some of us mortals who are likewise able to incorporate higher truth without a lot of struggle, too. Is it evolution at work?

Here's an interesting article about women who have experienced a relatively painless labor and delivery:

http://www.unassistedchildbirth.com/inspiration/laborless-labors-painless-births/

Merry Christmas to all!!!

Much Love, MaryJo



Thanks much for the thoughtful theory, MaryJo. And the link; fascinating anecdotes on painless, even unconscious, birth.

40 years ago a friend invited a bunch of us to her boy's birth, at home, with midwifes. She (a handsome, average sized, hazel-eyed, Irish-American, babyboomer) stood, breathed a lot, and focused intently. Then squatted partially with assistance at each arm, and proceeded with what appeared to be a painless birth of a very healthy 8 pound baby. It was magical, amazing, and laborless. Evidently that's not so very uncommon. Interesting that medical science hasn't delved into the reason why some have it and some don't. And too, if they discovered the cause is racial mixture, would they believe it?

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76:4.2 (850.8) ...Only the mixed races produced by the union of evolutionary man with the Nodites and later with the Adamites suffered the severe pangs of childbirth.


.

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 Post subject: Re: Adam & Laotta
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Wow! There's a very radical accusation and claim. Murder? I think the claim is outlandish and completely inaccurate and is totally refuted by the UB and even the same quote and same Paper.

What of the 1682 other births? What of Eve's own difficult delivery while caravaning? And to Maryjo's question about what, if any, is the bio difference in a Nodite woman giving birth to a child by one of Adam and Eve's violet sons or by Adam himself? Aren't the sons of Adam and Eve the same size and genetics?

Talk about thoughtless...such is the claim posted. And its reiteration I think. The more interesting and valid question is the abandonment of the Garden. I don't know the vulnerabilities but the first location seems more defensible than the second. I've always wondered about whether Van and Amadon were warrior priests and had to fight for their territorial culture north of the eventual first and second Gardens.

I can certainly understand the pacifism that made Adam run from violence. What an unusual situation they were in, surrounded by the barbarians who were so tribal and impressed only by strength and awe. There's a great movie, The Man Who Would Be King with Sean Connery and Michael Caine about two Brit explorers who become King and Ming's Man in a culture who worships them as gods....until one of these gods is accidentally wounded and the priests see him bleed. Uh oh.

Adam was no warrior or king with any real power over the surrounding tribes who were suddenly unawed and unimpressed by the behavior of these gods. And they were warriors. I'm sure there were Gardenites who were prepared to fight but the need to fight OR flee must have been very confusing.

Of course the original Garden was also an inescapable trap if the wall was breached.

I joined the Forum a couple months later than the post in question Rick...and TruthBook too...8 years ago. Your OPAD, one page a day, was a favorite of mine!


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 Post subject: Re: Adam & Laotta
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I am with Bradly on this one regarding Adam and Laotta. I trust the mercy of our Creator Son, our universe father, and the justice of the Ancient of Days. I also trust the material knowledge of Adam. Whatever was deemed culpable regarding Adam's and Eve's mission on Urantia has been adjudicated. Let us also not forget that he and Eve are two of the 24 Jerusem councelors:

45:4.11 (514.1) 9. Adam, the discredited but rehabilitated planetary father of Urantia, a Material Son of God who was relegated to the likeness of mortal flesh, but who survived and was subsequently elevated to this position by the decree of Michael.

45:4.12 (514.2) 10. Eve, the mother of the violet race of Urantia, who suffered the penalty of default with her mate and was also rehabilitated with him and assigned to serve with this group of mortal survivors.

114:2.1 (1251.4) Since the times of Michael’s bestowal on your world the general management of Urantia has been intrusted to a special group on Jerusem of twenty-four onetime Urantians. Qualification for membership on this commission is unknown to us, but we have observed that those who have been thus commissioned have all been contributors to the enlarging sovereignty of the Supreme in the system of Satania. By nature they were all real leaders when they functioned on Urantia, and (excepting Machiventa Melchizedek) these qualities of leadership have been further augmented by mansion world experience and supplemented by the training of Jerusem citizenship. Members are nominated to the twenty-four by the cabinet of Lanaforge, seconded by the Most Highs of Edentia, approved by the Assigned Sentinel of Jerusem, and appointed by Gabriel of Salvington in accordance with the mandate of Michael. The temporary appointees function just as fully as do the permanent members of this commission of special supervisors.

I think the above quote is enough to convince us of Adam's integrity.

Alexandros


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 Post subject: Re: Adam & Laotta
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.

Yeah, murder is going way too far, and maybe there is no culpability at all except for deliberately following Eve into impatient action. It's so odd that descending celestials don't get the impatience thing. Eve and Adam would have gotten all they wanted if they had just relaxed, churned out family to the half million goal, and let the amalgamation unfold without pushing the river. Instead Adam was always away tamping down trouble, Eve was without him too much, and with the help of rebels, Eden defaulted.

The other thing that's hard for this human to fathom about the Adamic mission is why the pair couldn't have been endowed with Adjusters before or upon coming to Urantia. They had been alive for tens of thousands of years. And too, we are told their children received them, right here on Urantia presumably. I don't doubt our Gods' wisdom, but I would like to understand what motivates them and their actions.

All that said, the more study of their story, the more fascination. After they received Adjusters on the way to the second Garden, they worked harder than anyone to make the best of things, never erring again in 400 years.

.

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The Material Sons and Daughters are never "humanized" by Adjuster endowment until ready for their ascension career...by success or failure. It's not done. Few are as isolated as our own Adam and Eve but still they had to await such endowment.

I've always wondered why Van and the corporeal staff were required to separate from theirs though. A much greater sacrifice and loss I think.

31:5.2 (349.2) When an advanced evolutionary world attains the later eras of the age of light and life, the Material Sons, the Planetary Adam and Eve, may elect to humanize, receive Adjusters, and embark upon the evolutionary course of universe ascent leading to the Corps of Mortal Finaliters. Certain of these Material Sons have partially failed or technically defaulted in their mission as biologic accelerators, as Adam did on Urantia; and then are they compelled to take the natural course of the peoples of the realm, receive Adjusters, pass through death, and progress by faith through the ascendant regime, subsequently attaining Paradise and the Corps of the Finality.

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 Post subject: Re: Adam & Laotta
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Makalu wrote:
Riktare wrote:
76:4.2 (850.8 ) Eve did not suffer pain in childbirth; neither did the early evolutionary races. Only the mixed races produced by the union of evolutionary man with the Nodites and later with the Adamites suffered the severe pangs of childbirth.

Why would that be the case? Possibly the geometry and constitution of the reproductive systems of the different types of races was originally quite different.


yeah there aren't a lot of fossils but certainly brain size increased and at some point birth canal shape and alignment requiring fetal rotation during birth evolved and that's thought to have originated with homo sapiens ~200kya (nodite era)

source: The evolution of the human pelvis: changing adaptations to bipedalism, obstetrics and thermoregulation


Lots of interesting details there:

Quote:
European Neanderthals maintained this archaic complex of pelvic anatomy (and possibly birth mechanism) well into the Late Pleistocene. However, some human populations during the late Middle Pleistocene, particularly in Africa and the Middle East, where H. sapiens evolved, were characterized by a mix of primitive traits and ones that are derived in the direction of modern humans.


Quote:
The relationship between body size and shape, overall pelvic size and shape, and birth canal size and shape in modern humans is complex. With the evolution of the modern pelvis, the size of the birth canal was essentially decoupled from the size of the body: birth canal proportions in modern humans do not necessarily correlate with body proportions.


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