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 Post subject: Re: Adam & Laotta
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fanofVan wrote:
Who challenges the motives or wisdom of this Material Son??


Do you mean the wisdom of the Material Sons, to have sent their children to Urantia? I am saying, how brave of the original human descendents, to offer daughters to Adam in such wise. How brave of such women to face such known risk. I am not questioning Eve's motive: I am praising, "how selfless" were those people who faced the same risk of death as Laotta.

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 Post subject: Re: Adam & Laotta
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What risk? Pure speculative fiction...still.

Do you mean the unblemished sacrificial lambs?

The supposed and alleged risk is still an invention and unfounded presumption within the question posted and still no text or logic in support.

You Stephen have falsely claimed 112 infant deaths and 50% death rate in mothers here. Balderdash, malarky, and horse feathers!!

Exaggerations, lies, deceit...but you simply ignore it when confronted.

Again...what risk? Rick? Please identify the risk presumed to be imposed by Adam upon others.

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 Post subject: Re: Adam & Laotta
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How brave of such women to face such known risk. I am not questioning Eve's motive: I am praising, "how selfless" were those people who faced the same risk of death as Laotta.


I suspect that the chosen women were honored to be part of the plan. If you'll remember. the inhabitants of the Garden were in awe of Adam and Eve, and had to be constrained from actually woshiping them as gods.

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74:4.1 That night, the night following the sixth day, while Adam and Eve slumbered, strange things were transpiring in the vicinity of the Father's temple in the central sector of Eden. There, under the rays of the mellow moon, hundreds of enthusiastic and excited men and women listened for hours to the impassioned pleas of their leaders. They meant well, but they simply could not understand the simplicity of the fraternal and democratic manner of their new rulers. And long before daybreak the new and temporary administrators of world affairs reached a virtually unanimous conclusion that Adam and his mate were altogether too modest and unassuming. They decided that Divinity had descended to earth in bodily form, that Adam and Eve were in reality gods or else so near such an estate as to be worthy of reverent worship.

74:4.2 The amazing events of the first six days of Adam and Eve on earth were entirely too much for the unprepared minds of even the world's best men; their heads were in a whirl; they were swept along with the proposal to bring the noble pair up to the Father's temple at high noon in order that everyone might bow down in respectful worship and prostrate themselves in humble submission. And the Garden dwellers were really sincere in all of this.


https://truthbook.com/urantia-book/paper-74-adam-and-eve#U74_4_1


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 Post subject: Re: Adam & Laotta
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maryjo606 wrote:
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I suspect that the chosen women were honored to be part of the plan. If you'll remember. the inhabitants of the Garden were in awe of Adam and Eve, and had to be constrained from actually woshiping them as gods.



Agreed, MaryJo, and the word honored may not be strong enough. Eager, willing, enthusiastic, et al come to mind. Cano probably thought he was king of the world for a few hours before he and his village were massacred.


.

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 Post subject: Re: Adam & Laotta
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Rick - still wondering about the basic nature of the question?? Why would anyone think Adam responsible for any mortal's death? Or specifically the death of Laotta??

Please specify the nature of the inquiry and the presumed cause of her death and the risk Adam is alleged to have imposed upon Laotta or any others.

Why are you dodging the very issue you raised here??

What risk?

Did these Nodite women have any increased mortality risk by being impregnated with Violet genes? By either Adam or his sons? Where does it say that in the UB?

What was Laotta's vulnerability - besides that which is specified in text as being in hasty escape and on a long hard journey on foot or the back of a beast? Indeed...doesn't the quote you posted tell us that Eve too was similarly affected by the same risk that resulted in the death of Laotta but Eve survived due to greater strength?? How is Adam to blame here again?

Please be specific in that text which describes and supports this new "risk" you have created and claimed here (at least so far as I can tell).

If you cannot or will not answer such reasonable questions, then it is my opinion that you are fostering and perpetuating a great evil/error here by such insinuation and inference.

Make the claim or withdraw the claim....but don't pretend the claim has not been made. One should not open such a can of worms to then ignore the results Rick.

The claim is that Adam thoughtlessly or deliberately put women's lives at risk which resulted in the death of at least one such mother - Laotta. Your post here has resulted in Stephen's claims that the UB says that 112 babies and mothers perished by Adam's decision. A horrific lie and misrepresentation of the text....but posted publicly and likely believed by some who won't read the text for themselves.

That's the claim you make here....now deal with it. The inference made is rather damning to Adam I think...and as false as it can get or be. Who would ask such a question? Why? What's the reasoning? And where's the supporting reasons or text?

Interesting how you support Maryjo's rejection of the claim and inferences made in your post while you also claim thoughtfulness for those who accept the insinuation and allegation which, logically, results in those who oppose such nonsense as thoughtless.

Do you see? You have posed the question. You claim those who agree with the premise are the thoughtful ones who replied insinuating your agreement with the premise by both acts and statements. You have offered no agreement with any of the many salient and relevant points in opposition to such a claim and premise. You deny any accusation against Adam but then confirm your accusation when you say:

"The question wasn't intended to be accusatory, more a poll. A reader on another forum felt he was culpable. I was surprised anyone did, then asked around and found other readers do also, in some measure at least because Adam was a biologist for 15,000 years and a System renowned expert anatomist.

It seems most reasonable of all opinions, that they both realized the risk and accepted it--willingly. What do you think of that theory?"


WHAT RISK?????????

YOU are now claiming there was a risk....not some other poster somewhere else! You. Explain yourself and your claim please. What risk do you refer to?

So far here only Stephen agrees with your so called "theory" - based on the deaths of 112 babies and 112 mothers (WHICH NEVER HAPPENED). Not good for your theory or your post. What is your theory based on? What is the risk?

I think we should be very cautious with our "theories" and consider them in full context of the UB's contents. I look forward to that. This site is a study group, primarily for newer readers to discover the wonder and beauty and assurances provided about universe reality and our history and destiny...as presented in the Papers. The only risk to Laotta I have discovered in the UB is a long, hard overland journey in her final weeks and days of pregnancy. Have you found another?? Thank you.

Bradly 8)


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 Post subject: Re: Adam & Laotta
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The UB explodes and reconstructs our reality, so it s no wonder our imaginations can run wild over episodes relating to our past, especially surrounding the Edenic era. We need to reign it in. We can't possibly know the intimate details. the motivations, and the stress of the beings, both human and divine, who took part.

Don't make a soap opera of a sacred episode. Look for the larger lessons and be thankful for the glimpses we are allowed. All will come clear when we are ready to witness it through the reflective services in the times to come.


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 Post subject: Re: Adam & Laotta
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76:4.2 (850.8 ) Eve did not suffer pain in childbirth; neither did the early evolutionary races. Only the mixed races produced by the union of evolutionary man with the Nodites and later with the Adamites suffered the severe pangs of childbirth.

Why would that be the case? Possibly the geometry and constitution of the reproductive systems of the different types of races was originally quite different.


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 Post subject: Re: Adam & Laotta
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Riktare wrote:
76:4.2 (850.8 ) Eve did not suffer pain in childbirth; neither did the early evolutionary races. Only the mixed races produced by the union of evolutionary man with the Nodites and later with the Adamites suffered the severe pangs of childbirth.

Why would that be the case? Possibly the geometry and constitution of the reproductive systems of the different types of races was originally quite different.



That's an excellent question, Rictare. I never understood the connection between race mixing and birth labor. Did the Life Carriers put that feature in to prevent premature racial amalgamation? Or was it unintentional, just an unfortunate, painful side effect of procreation?

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 Post subject: Re: Adam & Laotta
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rick warren wrote:
.


The question wasn't intended to be accusatory, more a poll. A reader on another forum felt he was culpable. I was surprised anyone did, then asked around and found other readers do also, in some measure at least because Adam was a biologist for 15,000 years and a System renowned expert anatomist.

It seems most reasonable of all opinions, that they both realized the risk and accepted it--willingly. What do you think of that theory?
.


So....evidently all objections, questions, and refutations are simply going to be ignored here and the claim of Adam's "irresponsible" and imposed "risk" upon others which is claimed to have resulted in a "victim's" death will stand?

Very well. Unfortunate.

The fact remains nothing has been offered here to support such claims or explain the reasoning which led to such claims and insinuations of responsibility and guilt. While the text posted clearly articulates the actual source of risk which resulted in this death is ignored and unacknowledged.

But even more troubling than the original false claims and accusations against our Material Son is the further expression of insinuation that the UB authors are or might be withholding or even lying about Urantia's history by the declaration that "Humanity deserves to know our true origin, history, and destiny..." including the consequences of the Adamic default.

Don't we know that? Isn't that the contents of the Revelation? Others have come here before to question the contents of the Papers and the motives and intentions of the Revelation authors. They also ignore what is written and deliver doubts by inventions and insinuations and also ignore objections and refutations and corrections when offered.

Rick...you are long known as a stalwart student, believer, and scholar of the Revelation as well as a tireless and dedicated servant of its dissemination to our world. Your position and deafness here is bewildering and startling to me. But in all ways and things I do offer best wishes to you and my sincere admiration and thanks for your generous service. Thank you.

Doesn't the UB say the woman died from weakness suffered during travel and escape, fleeing the enemies of the Garden? And doesn't the UB say that Eve likewise suffered in childbirth during the same trip for the same reason? Isn't that what you posted in the original text quote? And have you offered another?

Why is it suggested here that the authors have failed to disclose the truth about the consequences of the Adamic default? What a dangerous inference.

Commitment to fact and truth is a good thing...the problem here is with those who ignore it as presented and claim fictions as true instead. What's up with that I wonder??

8)


Last edited by fanofVan on Fri Dec 20, 2019 9:24 am +0000, edited 2 times in total.

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76:4.2 (850.8 ) Eve did not suffer pain in childbirth; neither did the early evolutionary races. Only the mixed races produced by the union of evolutionary man with the Nodites and later with the Adamites suffered the severe pangs of childbirth.


Quote:
That's an excellent question, Rictare. I never understood the connection between race mixing and birth labor. Did the Life Carriers put that feature in to prevent premature racial amalgamation? Or was it unintentional, just an unfortunate, painful side effect of procreation?


As regards Adam's role in this racial amalgamation...it seems that that mixing of the VIolet race with evolutionary man was an inevitability in any event. It was destined to happen, either when it did, or as part of the original plan. And the Nodites had mated with the evolutionary races long before the default. So evolutionary women had already been subject to difficult labor and delivery.

Quote:
73:1.6 These Nodites had freely mated with the Sangik races and had left behind an able progeny. And some of the descendants of the rebellious Dalamatians subsequently joined Van and his loyal followers in the lands north of Mesopotamia. Here, in the vicinity of Lake Van and the southern Caspian Sea region, the Nodites mingled and mixed with the Amadonites, and they were numbered among the "mighty men of old."

73:1.7 Prior to the arrival of Adam and Eve these groups—Nodites and Amadonites—were the most advanced and cultured races on earth.


https://truthbook.com/urantia-book/paper-73-the-garden-of-eden#U73_1_6


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fanofVan wrote:
rick warren wrote:
.

The question wasn't intended to be accusatory, more a poll. A reader on another forum felt he was culpable. I was surprised anyone did, then asked around and found other readers do also, in some measure at least because Adam was a biologist for 15,000 years and a System renowned expert anatomist.

It seems most reasonable of all opinions, that they both realized the risk and accepted it--willingly. What do you think of that theory?
.


So....evidently all objections, questions, and refutations are simply going to be ignored here and the claim of Adam's "irresponsible" and imposed "risk" upon others which is claimed to have resulted in a "victim's" death will stand?

Hi Bradly. Please forgive the delay. Not ignored, just postponed.

Very well. Unfortunate.

The fact remains nothing has been offered here to support such claims or explain the reasoning which led to such claims and insinuations of responsibility and guilt. While the text posted clearly articulates the actual source of risk which resulted in this death is ignored and unacknowledged.

But even more troubling than the original false claims and accusations against our Material Son is the further expression of insinuation that the UB authors are or might be withholding or even lying about Urantia's history by the declaration that "Humanity deserves to know our true origin, history, and destiny..." including the consequences of the Adamic default.


I would classify them as speculations and opinions, not claims.


Don't we know that? Isn't that the contents of the Revelation? Others have come here before to question the contents of the Papers and the motives and intentions of the Revelation authors. They also ignore what is written and deliver doubts by inventions and insinuations and also ignore objections and refutations and corrections when offered.

The authors are reliable and I don't question their authority or veracity, but I do enjoy deepening the context of revelation through polling, discussion, gathering a diversity of meanings and interpretations. And too, I want to stimulate discussions of real, revealed history, especially Adam and Eve's, in order to prepare the soil for a new version of their little understood incarnation, their tenure and error, one based in revealed truth, not so-called 'original sin.'

Rick...you are long known as a stalwart student, believer, and scholar of the Revelation as well as a tireless and dedicated servant of its dissemination to our world. Your position and deafness here is bewildering and startling to me. But in all ways and things I do offer best wishes to you and my sincere admiration and thanks for your generous service. Thank you.

Thank you as well. But I am a student, not a scholar. And I am not deaf or taking a position, aside from wanting the people of Earth to know their true history.

Doesn't the UB say the woman died from weakness suffered during travel and escape, fleeing the enemies of the Garden? And doesn't the UB say that Eve likewise suffered in childbirth during the same trip for the same reason? Isn't that what you posted in the original text quote? And have you offered another?

Why is it suggested here that the authors have failed to disclose the truth about the consequences of the Adamic default? What a dangerous inference.


Hmm... Not following. I didn't suggest that.


Commitment to fact and truth is a good thing...the problem here is with those who ignore it as presented and claim fictions as true instead. What's up with that I wonder??

Understood. But I can't see where anyone's made an absolute statement or claim. My apologies for startling and bewildering you, it wasn't intentional, nor was it intended as a threat to Solonia's presentation of the lives and times of these two magnificent toilers who so altered the course of humanity for the better, much better.

Good Christmas to you, yours, and all TB forum's citizens.


.


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Thanks Rick....may you and yours enjoy a wonderful season together in celebration of peace and good will between all as we remember that Divine love we are all so blessed to receive. Joy and glad tidings my friend!!

:biggrin:

Bradly


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maryjo606 wrote:

As regards Adam's role in this racial amalgamation...it seems that that mixing of the VIolet race with evolutionary man was an inevitability in any event. It was destined to happen, either when it did, or as part of the original plan. And the Nodites had mated with the evolutionary races long before the default. So evolutionary women had already been subject to difficult labor and delivery.


Thanks for the reply, MaryJo. Good and right points all.

Do you have an opinion about the reason mixing creates labor pain?

.

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Do you have an opinion about the reason mixing creates labor pain?


Well, Rick, I really don't - although I have thought about it. I know this might be too eerie a comparison, but I remember an old movie called "The Island of Dr Moreau" where this mad scientist tried to cross men with animals through some sort of scientific process of grafting - not normal procreation. The resultant creature was part man, part beast, and they suffered terribly by having been made partially intelligent, so that the truth dawned on them that they were really animals with devastating limitations. It was hurtful to them and eventually, the whole island, and the experiment was destroyed by these creatures - in fire, I think.

I just bring it up because I think there's something inherently painful about introducing higher pattern into a lower being...whether it's through this childbearing process, or whether it's the struggle that we experience by learning higher spiritual truth - which often comes in the midst of painful adversity.

Now, please do not misunderstand. I am not likening Adam to a mad scientist, or to us as unintelligent animals (although we really are animal-origin beings). It's just that we are pretty low on the totem pole of evolutionary beings of spirit potential. And injecting the evolutionary races with these higher elements of potential may be the cause of pain in several areas.

This is only my crude attempt to understand this phenomenon. One might think that over generations of time, that the painful process of childbirth might have been eased. And for some, it has eased. But it has not eased for most women. Neither has the painful process of discovering and activating higher spiritual truth eased.

Some women experience less (and some no) pain, though, and there are some of us mortals who are likewise able to incorporate higher truth without a lot of struggle, too. Is it evolution at work?

Here's an interesting article about women who have experienced a relatively painless labor and delivery:

http://www.unassistedchildbirth.com/inspiration/laborless-labors-painless-births/

Merry Christmas to all!!!

Much Love, MaryJo


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 Post subject: Re: Adam & Laotta
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Rick...you say your post is speculative...and yet you posted:

"It seems most reasonable of all opinions, that they both realized the risk and accepted it--willingly. What do you think of that theory?"

There is a presumption of "the risk" in your post which makes your speculation a claim...a claim of risk - even a mortality risk, a risk of death.

This presumption and claim has zero text or logic support provided by you or the original poster. False or faulty premise unerringly results in false conclusions...and claims.

Your own wording here elevates speculation and transforms it into claims of fact...which are fictional or at least unsupported allegations. You should acknowledge that and say so at the other site in the name of objectivity and accuracy. IMO.

Cheers! :wink:


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