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Do hope and desire win souls for the kingdom?? I think they do.

2:4.4 (38.4) Mercy is the natural and inevitable offspring of goodness and love. The good nature of a loving Father could not possibly withhold the wise ministry of mercy to each member of every group of his universe children. Eternal justice and divine mercytogether constitute what in human experience would be called fairness.

2:4.5 (38.5) Divine mercy represents a fairness technique of adjustment between the universe levels of perfection and imperfection. Mercy is the justice of Supremacy adapted to the situations of the evolving finite, the righteousness of eternity modified to meet the highest interests and universe welfare of the children of time. Mercy is not a contravention of justice but rather an understanding interpretation of the demands of supreme justice as it is fairly applied to the subordinate spiritual beings and to the material creatures of the evolving universes. Mercy is the justice of the Paradise Trinity wisely and lovingly visited upon the manifold intelligences of the creations of time and space as it is formulated by divine wisdom and determined by the all-knowing mind and the sovereign free will of the Universal Father and all his associated Creators.

5. The Love of God

2:5.1 (38.6) “God is love”; therefore his only personal attitude towards the affairs of the universe is always a reaction of divine affection. The Father loves us sufficiently to bestow his life upon us. “He makes his sun to rise on the evil and on the good and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.”

6.9 (42.1) Facing the world of personality, God is discovered to be a loving person; facing the spiritual world, he is a personal love; in religious experience he is both. Love identifies the volitional will of God. The goodness of God rests at the bottom of the divine free-willness—the universal tendency to love, show mercy, manifest patience, and minister forgiveness.

100:5.1 (1098.4) The world is filled with lost souls, not lost in the theologic sense but lost in the directional meaning, wandering about in confusionamong the isms and cults of a frustrated philosophic era. Too few have learned how to install a philosophy of living in the place of religious authority. 


110:3.5 (1206.3) Confusion, being puzzled, even sometimes discouraged and distracted, does not necessarily signify resistance to the leadings of the indwelling Adjuster. Such attitudes may sometimes connote lack of active co-operation with the divine Monitor and may, therefore, somewhat delay spiritual progress, but such intellectual emotional difficulties do not in the least interfere with the certain survival of the God-knowing soul. Ignorance alone can never prevent survival; neither can confusional doubts nor fearful uncertainty. Only conscious resistance to the Adjuster’s leading can prevent the survival of the evolving immortal soul.


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fanofVan wrote:
Hahaha....no worries!! :lol:

The UB describes the faith experience in ways I had never imagined. Lots of people on this world are having faith experiences and giving faith expressions to others as well! Indeed both faith and religious experience are so innate and natural and internally responsive to the Spirit ministry that mortal mind cannot even conceive or explain true religious experience. Can one have religious experience without being "religious"??? Yes. For sure.

There are those that require certain beliefs and acts and expressions for any to be "saved" from damnation or to earn survival status. Thankfully God has no such creedal requirements. Of course fusion and eternal standing are another matter and there are rather strenuous requirements for such ascendency that do require knowledge and effort. But the birth of soul happens to children and primitives and barbarians ….and atheists….and when we give the love we feel to others, we are having a religious experience...a bona fide and genuine soul feeding spiritualizing progressive experience!!


Tell me about it! It's so hard putting into words your own religious experience.

My agnostic friend is highly put off of dogma, given the background we both came from (religious leaders demanding control). It's a catch 22 because he wants something concrete to believe, but at the same time is repulsed by teachers who are absolute in their beliefs! The paradox being that the more detailed a faith is (e.g. Urantia book) the less likely it is to be true to him. That's the price of leaving a spiritually abusive cult. It's thrown him into a type of far left (liberal) philosophy with a fear of fundamentalism/commitment (fear of being intellectually vulnerable?). Tragically the UB gets lumped into one camp or another when it's neither - in my opinion it's a perfect blend of them all (solid information which at the same time allows the individual freedom to grow).

It seems that being the trendy vague "new age" guru is the easiest get out of jail free card because it lets the listener fill in the gaps and thus they think that a spiritual/philosophical teacher is amazing...when in reality all they've done is used what could be described as the power of suggestion/placebo/cold reading (hard to describe?) and allowed the listener to connect dots in their own mind and build their own story (which is accredited to the guru).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0O8Jw6grro

Throw in a few facts or real world observations and the guru has become a reassuring expert. Don't forget to pepper your teaching with the adage "we don't know for sure" (I'm just one of you), and then the student can feel as though they're not being coerced by a domineering hierarchy. When the teacher is faced with a question, the answer is yes and no. Ultimately it still leaves that gap in the truth seekers mind; not having solid direction....but they're scared to be shown something exact (!) because "that's too close to the likes of Joseph Smith and his golden plates".


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BrotherP wrote:
Good reminder. I often get carried away with the minutiae of a mechanical nature and forget what inspired that shift within me in the first place (i.e. reading the Jesus papers). So hard knowing what to do when someone is caught up in a "sign seeking" mindset. It's also hard to put myself in his shoes because I already had a moderate faith when I came across the UB, but for him he's questioning everything, even the validity/story of the historical Jesus.


I once had a sign-seeking mindset, even after falling in love with Jesus. I just wanted assurances that I had actually found him and wasn't dreaming it up. It's always been a comfort to me to read the amazingly truthful revelation which informs us that once we start looking for God, it's proof that he has already found us. A soul can't seek for God without God himself urging him to seek in the first place. So searching for God is evidence that we have actually found him, but don't recognize him as God.

(1440.2) 130:8.2 Said Jesus: “If you truly want to find God, that desire is in itself evidence that you have already found him. Your trouble is not that you cannot find God, for the Father has already found you; your trouble is simply that you do not know God. Have you not read in the Prophet Jeremiah, ‘You shall seek me and find me when you shall search for me with all your heart’?

Your friend is looking, so you can tell him with certainty that God has already found him. All your friend has to do is recognize him within his own heart and mind, it's that rebirth, or born of the spirit thing Jesus spoke of. It's a waking up to the fact that you're not alone within your inner, deeper mind. The only way to do that is to realize God is a loving person who you are desperately trying to love in return within your inner soul.

(2078:2) 195:6.16 And so, when you once start out to find God, that is the conclusive proof that God has already found you.
(1733:6) 155:6.18    You are my apostles, and to you religion shall not become a theologic shelter to which you may flee in fear of facing the rugged realities of spiritual progress and idealistic adventure; but rather shall your religion become the fact of real experience which testifies that God has found you, idealized, ennobled, and spiritualized you, and that you have enlisted in the eternal adventure of finding the God who has thus found and sonshipped you.

BrotherP wrote:
That may sound more shocking to certain parts of America, but here in the UK the religious are a dying breed (from where I'm standing) and the bible mostly isn't seen as any kind of authority.


It's not shocking to me that the UK has fallen victim to secularism. It's all part of evolution which will eventually give way under its own weight. The seeds of its own destruction are built into it. But it is sad that there are so many lost souls searching for something that they already have and can't seem to recognize. Sooner or later reality and truth will win the day, and sincere seekers, despite their doubts, will actually see.

(1960.1) 181:2.20 Philip, you have always wanted to be shown, and very soon shall you see great things. Far better that you should have seen all this by faith, but since you were sincere even in your material sightedness, you will live to see my words fulfilled. And then, when you are blessed with spiritual vision, go forth to your work, dedicating your life to the cause of leading mankind to search for God and to seek eternal realities with the eye of spiritual faith and not with the eyes of the material mind. Remember, Philip, you have a great mission on earth, for the world is filled with those who look at life just as you have tended to.

(1766:4) 159:3.8 The world is filled with hungry souls who famish in the very presence of the bread of life; men die searching for the very God who lives within them. Men seek for the treasures of the kingdom with yearning hearts and weary feet when they are all within the immediate grasp of living faith. Faith is to religion what sails are to a ship; it is an addition of power, not an added burden of life. There is but one struggle for those who enter the kingdom, and that is to fight the good fight of faith. The believer has only one battle, and that is against doubt--unbelief.

(1098:4) 100:5.1 The world is filled with lost souls, not lost in the theologic sense but lost in the directional meaning, wandering about in confusion among the isms and cults of a frustrated philosophic era. Too few have learned how to install a philosophy of living in the place of religious authority. (The symbols of socialized religion are not to be despised as channels of growth, albeit the river bed is not the river.)


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"I'm just one of you" - No way. That's a Spartan promise.

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The paradox is not between two dichotomous rational views. It is in knowing that everyone who has made the supreme realisation of faith, which for Jesus was gradual, comes the potential for every son of man to have a distinct Concept of Being, that if offered to God would allow that person to perform the individual destiny for all time in the grand universe. Therefore, the full matriculation of faith is experiencial and leads to separate outcomes for every human individual. It is not necessary to "recruit" followers, but rather you should know within your experiences who else is following the personal mandates of faith, and the duty not to reveal that to society but to humbly assist in the progress of all beings.

The downfall of Troi is the scenario-archetype of the dangers of cults. Self-Pride, and the matching of values, can lead to the destruction of real cultures on Urantia. The substitution of mediocre values leads to the dilution of merit. Therefore, within the personal standard, one cannot substitute ideals for experiencial values. Only the Adjuster knows how to lead man through his dilemmas.

Man learns to cooperate, to act independently of, the indwelling Adjuster:
128:4.8 By the end of this year the Nazareth home was running fairly smoothly. The children were growing up, and Mary was becoming accustomed to Jesus' being away from home. He continued to turn over his earnings to James for the support of the family, retaining only a small portion for his immediate personal expenses.

The goals of financial independence, and self-directedness, are far more incumbent upon a priest, than his personal need to be present within the culture of the home. We are all required to maintain that trust in the Adjuster's stead.

Religiously, the culture is of the grand universe. Spiritually, our souls stand in that realisation, but our contention is within this material and scientific plane of civilized progress: the soul and the Adjuster working to bring life from Urantia. It's good to "win souls" for Havona, but not to win them to your personal view. It is better that each adult realise the separate Concept of Being, appling their solutions through novel/universal means. There is a scientific method of horticultural experiement; likewise there is an experiencial method of progress within the soul of man, and the religious realisation that may come out of that experiencial progress is existential. Therefore, I am not required to provide testimony (this is a terrible burden, karmically), but I should only work to make the representation of my Concept, and to repair the caravan-train of all souls bound for the seventh satellite of Jerusem. But does the Universal Father affirm my testimony? You know He does. But I can only claim my reward on Urantia now, that is the price for giving you this. How much greater is the realisation for those who silently create God's Centrual Universe on Urantia.

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That's 3 irrelevant posts in a row....and another topic hijacked!!!


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For the Spartans, the post-Troian conquest mean an era of duality: internal values versus external values. How to project the external values of Troi as a means of conquering other tribes, whereas how to keep those values, hold them in tact, without internally distorting the original goals.

Therefore, you can engage in discourse with philosophers, or with scientists, and maybe you can see how your attempts to actually enlighten others fell on deaf, or closed, ears. Philosophers are called to teach other pupils, not others who have already gained knowledge!

You know better than to think there is superiority of the dove over the serpent! You know better than to suggest that it is better to be a philosopher than a scientist!

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Now....4 irrelevant posts.... =; :-# :-$

Just how rude are you Dude?????


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The pleasures, or the blessings, of the Central Universe come after the adequate functioning of faith. One should save the treasures of human experience, stow them away in Havona. By thinking you are able to steer others' hearts who have already carved their viewpoints, you are sowing your truth on barren ground, and not in the fertile hearts of those whom aspire to become like the Universal Father, always sincere in doing that work within the exigent regions of the soul, the scant corners of the arena of human consideration.

Often people setting on becoming a preacher, because of teachers it is said "if you cannot do, teach", a faulty standard to be sure. It is because there is too much trauma, emotionally, to recognise that fear has a hand putting dimunitive returns on one's personal experience. But within households, there has to be one person accountable to observe and keep in mind the actions that others say do not exist, "it is too traumatic for them to personally encounter." But the consolance that one puts on identity, is the shortsale of faith, for one who willingly does all that is required throughout the experiences of life as a human individual.

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And....that makes 5...!!!!

Holy Cow!! :-&


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fanofVan wrote:
And....that makes 5...!!!!

Holy Cow!! :-&


:lol:


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katroofjebus wrote:
BrotherP wrote:
Good reminder. I often get carried away with the minutiae of a mechanical nature and forget what inspired that shift within me in the first place (i.e. reading the Jesus papers). So hard knowing what to do when someone is caught up in a "sign seeking" mindset. It's also hard to put myself in his shoes because I already had a moderate faith when I came across the UB, but for him he's questioning everything, even the validity/story of the historical Jesus.


I once had a sign-seeking mindset, even after falling in love with Jesus. I just wanted assurances that I had actually found him and wasn't dreaming it up. It's always been a comfort to me to read the amazingly truthful revelation which informs us that once we start looking for God, it's proof that he has already found us. A soul can't seek for God without God himself urging him to seek in the first place. So searching for God is evidence that we have actually found him, but don't recognize him as God.

(1440.2) 130:8.2 Said Jesus: “If you truly want to find God, that desire is in itself evidence that you have already found him. Your trouble is not that you cannot find God, for the Father has already found you; your trouble is simply that you do not know God. Have you not read in the Prophet Jeremiah, ‘You shall seek me and find me when you shall search for me with all your heart’?

Your friend is looking, so you can tell him with certainty that God has already found him. All your friend has to do is recognize him within his own heart and mind, it's that rebirth, or born of the spirit thing Jesus spoke of. It's a waking up to the fact that you're not alone within your inner, deeper mind. The only way to do that is to realize God is a loving person who you are desperately trying to love in return within your inner soul.

(2078:2) 195:6.16 And so, when you once start out to find God, that is the conclusive proof that God has already found you.
(1733:6) 155:6.18    You are my apostles, and to you religion shall not become a theologic shelter to which you may flee in fear of facing the rugged realities of spiritual progress and idealistic adventure; but rather shall your religion become the fact of real experience which testifies that God has found you, idealized, ennobled, and spiritualized you, and that you have enlisted in the eternal adventure of finding the God who has thus found and sonshipped you.

BrotherP wrote:
That may sound more shocking to certain parts of America, but here in the UK the religious are a dying breed (from where I'm standing) and the bible mostly isn't seen as any kind of authority.


It's not shocking to me that the UK has fallen victim to secularism. It's all part of evolution which will eventually give way under its own weight. The seeds of its own destruction are built into it. But it is sad that there are so many lost souls searching for something that they already have and can't seem to recognize. Sooner or later reality and truth will win the day, and sincere seekers, despite their doubts, will actually see.

(1960.1) 181:2.20 Philip, you have always wanted to be shown, and very soon shall you see great things. Far better that you should have seen all this by faith, but since you were sincere even in your material sightedness, you will live to see my words fulfilled. And then, when you are blessed with spiritual vision, go forth to your work, dedicating your life to the cause of leading mankind to search for God and to seek eternal realities with the eye of spiritual faith and not with the eyes of the material mind. Remember, Philip, you have a great mission on earth, for the world is filled with those who look at life just as you have tended to.

(1766:4) 159:3.8 The world is filled with hungry souls who famish in the very presence of the bread of life; men die searching for the very God who lives within them. Men seek for the treasures of the kingdom with yearning hearts and weary feet when they are all within the immediate grasp of living faith. Faith is to religion what sails are to a ship; it is an addition of power, not an added burden of life. There is but one struggle for those who enter the kingdom, and that is to fight the good fight of faith. The believer has only one battle, and that is against doubt--unbelief.

(1098:4) 100:5.1 The world is filled with lost souls, not lost in the theologic sense but lost in the directional meaning, wandering about in confusion among the isms and cults of a frustrated philosophic era. Too few have learned how to install a philosophy of living in the place of religious authority. (The symbols of socialized religion are not to be despised as channels of growth, albeit the river bed is not the river.)



It is reassuring to know!

I guess the only thing you can do is state your own testament of faith...which as we know in the UB is futile because the skeptic will say this is merely subjectivity, not based on "fact". This leads to going round in circles:

“If the nonreligious approaches to cosmic reality presume to challenge the certainty of faith on the grounds of its unproved status, then the spirit experiencer can likewise resort to the dogmatic challenge of the facts of science and the beliefs of philosophy on the grounds that they are likewise unproved; they are likewise experiences in the consciousness of the scientist or the philosopher.” (1127.1) 102:7.7

:smile:

Then again, it's usually a given that mankind don't know everything, and the above reasoning is said to be an excuse to believe in "fables". My agnostic friend doesn't doubt so much the potential existence of a higher/divine power as much as he doubts the stories about them and the cosmos. He's more comfortable with belief on a philosophical and speculative level, but not so much detailed "superhuman" accounts. The contention he has is this - how do we know the UB is an angelic revelation and not just a bunch of man made stories.

To reiterate, he believes in the good values of the UB (or any religion), but struggles to see it as more than human thinking. He wants to know why I've come to different conclusions, and wonders if there's anything tangible.

(in hindsight, this thread probably would have been more suitable in the skeptics section)


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I'd say that deep down my friend believes in these kinds of statements:

(43.3) 2:7.10 The religious challenge of this age is to those farseeing and forward-looking men and women of spiritual insight who will dare to construct a new and appealing philosophy of living out of the enlarged and exquisitely integrated modern concepts of cosmic truth, universe beauty, and divine goodness. Such a new and righteous vision of morality will attract all that is good in the mind of man and challenge that which is best in the human soul. Truth, beauty, and goodness are divine realities, and as man ascends the scale of spiritual living, these supreme qualities of the Eternal become increasingly co-ordinated and unified in God, who is love.

(43.4) 2:7.11 All truth — material, philosophic, or spiritual — is both beautiful and good. All real beauty — material art or spiritual symmetry — is both true and good. All genuine goodness — whether personal morality, social equity, or divine ministry — is equally true and beautiful. Health, sanity, and happiness are integrations of truth, beauty, and goodness as they are blended in human experience. Such levels of efficient living come about through the unification of energy systems, idea systems, and spirit systems.

(43.5) 2:7.12 Truth is coherent, beauty attractive, goodness stabilizing. And when these values of that which is real are co-ordinated in personality experience, the result is a high order of love conditioned by wisdom and qualified by loyalty.


He believes that truth is an essential pursuit, not just a "nice way of living" which as he reckons could be man made. It's just where the "rubber meets the road" (his words), that's where he doubts. e.g. Descriptions of the "afterlife", midwayers, accounts about Jesus etc. His attitude would be "aye right!" when he reads a detailed account. It basically leaves me stumped, because you either believe it or you don't! Not that I have this desperation for him to believe as I do in the UB. Although that would be nice, I fully understand that real faith and human value goes deeper than a book.


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For me, some of the information in TUB relating to science and history is powerful intellectual support of its authority. At the time the book was first printed, many things the authors state were either unknown to any scientist or conflict strongly with the understanding of the times. I'd have to say that at least 90% of all scientists, at least publicly, stick to the "party line" or consensus view, regardless of how poorly that consensus view fits reality. Maybe you know the saying "Science advances one funeral at a time"?


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For the Spartans, the post-Troian conquest mean an era of duality: internal values versus external values. How to project the external values of Troi as a means of conquering other tribes, whereas how to keep those values, hold them in tact, without internally distorting the original goals.

Therefore, you can engage in discourse with philosophers, or with scientists, and maybe you can see how your attempts to actually enlighten others fell on deaf, or closed, ears. Philosophers are called to teach other pupils, not others who have already gained knowledge!

You know better than to think there is superiority of the dove over the serpent! You know better than to suggest that it is better to be a philosopher than a scientist!


SEla_Kelly, please refrain from any more of these Sparta posts, or any other posts that are not relevant. Please try to stick with the topic at hand.

MaryJo


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