Urantia Book Forum

Urantia Book Discussion Board : Study Group
It is currently Thu Jul 09, 2020 3:40 am +0000

All times are UTC - 7 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 195 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Experiential Wisdom
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:11 pm +0000
Posts: 932
fanofVan wrote:
Your opinions of my understanding are irrelevant, unwelcome...and rude...in my opinion. :wink:

You don't appear to understand what the topic is or anything I have said or posted on the topic. But perhaps others might. 8)


Sorry. I didn't realize I was being rude. I've been hopeful that you would entertain some of my ideas. I suppose you think I have rejected yours, but I haven't. I think I've pointed out where we agree and have attempted to launch from those points of agreement, but you never seem to follow. That's okay.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Experiential Wisdom
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 4379
Apology accepted...thank you. Just so you know, I have mostly enjoyed your posts related to human wisdom and appreciate the text support for your opinions on the matter - even if you don't think I "appear to follow"...so much innuendo with each post.

Hahaha...oh well...perhaps humor should override battered ego? And perhaps you don't intend to be so insulting. Perhaps.

It is not important that we agree on everything and personalized perspectives provide better triangulation of perception and appreciation of all related issues.

It is unfortunate you find my posts so difficult to understand and it is my hope your perception will improve with more time and familiarity with my writing style. I appreciate your efforts in that regard and your difficulties of comprehension.

Back to the topic... :wink:


Last edited by fanofVan on Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:44 am +0000, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Experiential Wisdom
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 4379
katroofjebus wrote:
I don't think any wisdom, other than existential perfect wisdom, can exist without choice. Experience is the realm in which choices are offered and selected by personality through the mediation of mind. Wisdom is a mind ministry after all, and mind is endowed. Wisdom is a mind ministry which urges the personality to align its choices with the way of the universe, God's will. That's why it's designed to facilitate discernment of right from wrong/ good from evil, especially with Spirit leading.


So the life in the flesh has the Holy Spirit and Guardian Angels and TA guiding the mortal experience into and toward specific situations and circumstances and intersections of choice. It appears to be a personalized curriculum designed for the circle progress and spiritization of each mortal.

113:4.3 (1245.3) Seraphim function as teachers of men by guiding the footsteps of the human personality into paths of new and progressive experiences. To accept the guidance of a seraphim rarely means attaining a life of ease. In following this leading you are sure to encounter, and if you have the courage, to traverse, the rugged hills of moral choosing and spiritual progress.

108:5.5 (1191.6) The Mystery Monitors are not thought helpers; they are thought adjusters. They labor with the material mind for the purpose of constructing, by adjustment and spiritualization, a new mind for the new worlds and the new name of your future career. Their mission chiefly concerns the future life, not this life. They are called heavenly helpers, not earthly helpers. They are not interested in making the mortal career easy; rather are they concerned in making your life reasonably difficult and rugged, so that decisions will be stimulated and multiplied. The presence of a great Thought Adjuster does not bestow ease of living and freedom from strenuous thinking, but such a divine gift should confer a sublime peace of mind and a superb tranquillity of spirit.

108:5.6 (1192.1) Your transient and ever-changing emotions of joy and sorrow are in the main purely human and material reactions to your internal psychic climate and to your external material environment. Do not, therefore, look to the Adjuster for selfish consolation and mortal comfort. It is the business of the Adjuster to prepare you for the eternal adventure, to assure your survival. It is not the mission of the Mystery Monitor to smooth your ruffled feelings or to minister to your injured pride; it is the preparation of your soul for the long ascending career that engages the attention and occupies the time of the Adjuster.

Me here: And, as you point out above, the truth ministries of the TA and Spirit of Truth deliver insights and inspiration and confirmations and assurances....the yearn created and the response to the yearn rewarded by the Spirits within.

107:0.5 (1176.5) It is the Adjuster who creates within man that unquenchable yearning and incessant longing to be like God, to attain Paradise, and there before the actual person of Deity to worship the infinite source of the divine gift. ...

Me here: When repeated and reaffirmed and repeated more, such choices become wisdom...and habitual....and reflexive.

100:1.8 (1095.3) Religious habits of thinking and acting are contributory to the economy of spiritual growth. One can develop religious predispositions toward favorable reaction to spiritual stimuli, a sort of conditioned spiritual reflex. Habits which favor religious growth embrace cultivated sensitivity to divine values, recognition of religious living in others, reflective meditation on cosmic meanings, worshipful problem solving, sharing one’s spiritual life with one’s fellows, avoidance of selfishness, refusal to presume on divine mercy, living as in the presence of God. The factors of religious growth may be intentional, but the growth itself is unvaryingly unconscious.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Experiential Wisdom
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:11 pm +0000
Posts: 932
fanofVan wrote:
Apology accepted...thank you. Just so you know, I have mostly enjoyed your posts related to human wisdom and appreciate the text support for your opinions on the matter - even if you don't think I "appear to follow"...so much innuendo with each post.

Hahaha...oh well...perhaps humor should override battered ego? And perhaps you don't intend to be so insulting. Perhaps.

It is not important that we agree on everything and personalized perspectives provide better triangulation of perception and appreciation of all related issues.

It is unfortunate you find my posts so difficult to understand and it is my hope your perception will improve with more time and familiarity with my writing style. I appreciate your efforts in that effort and your difficulties of comprehension.

Back to the topic... :wink:


Humor certainly can't hurt. I just want you to know that I think we agree on more than is apparent. It's your writing that is so confusing to me. I read what you write a few times and then begin to reply, but then ask myself, "is that really what he meant, or is it something else?" I then go back and read and reread only to come up with another conclusion as to the meaning and have to start all over, and even then I'm not sure. This happens with almost every post. You use so many, many words without punctuation, to say one simple thing, that your meanings get tangled up and knotted in my mind. That's not meant to be a destructive criticism but rather an observation and attempt at explanation as to why your writing confuses me. I don't expect you to change your writing, but hopefully you might be agreeable to answering my questions about its meaning, because I'm rarely ever sure. That is, if you're interested in a conversation. If not, we can continue to just talk at each other instead of with each other. I personally prefer the latter and hopefully you do the same.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Experiential Wisdom
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:11 pm +0000
Posts: 932
fanofVan wrote:
So the life in the flesh has the Holy Spirit and Guardian Angels and TA guiding the mortal experience into and toward specific situations and circumstances and intersections of choice. It appears to be a personalized curriculum designed for the circle progress and spiritization of each mortal.


I agree, but I think the Spirit of Truth is absolutely vital in discovering the will of the Father in every life situation. The Spirit of Truth is the director of relations between all persons and all things as well as the source of spiritual philosophy and wisdom, living truth.

(647.4) 56:10.13 The recognition of true relations implies a mind competent to discriminate between truth and error. The bestowal Spirit of Truth which invests the human minds of Urantia is unerringly responsive to truth — the living spirit relationship of all things and all beings as they are co-ordinated in the eternal ascent Godward.

(1950.6) 180:5.11 And so must we clearly recognize that neither the golden rule nor the teaching of nonresistance can ever be properly understood as dogmas or precepts. They can only be comprehended by living them, by realizing their meanings in the living interpretation of the Spirit of Truth, who directs the loving contact of one human being with another.

fanofVan wrote:
Me here: And, as you point out above, the truth ministries of the TA and Spirit of Truth deliver insights and inspiration and confirmations and assurances....the yearn created and the response to the yearn rewarded by the Spirits within.


Yes, but the Spirit of Truth is much more than a source of inspiration, confirmation and assurance. The Spirit of Truth is the actual go-between, the agent of true relations, which is why we're admonished to allow the Spirit of Truth to do his own work. We can partner with him in his efforts and we're told that we must make that a priority. Fellowshipping with the Spirit of Truth is a relationship which is supposed to take precedence over all other human relationships. That's pretty startling news when you think about it. I know it blew my mind when I read it.

(1593.6) 141:7.5 Jesus made it plain that he had come to establish personal and eternal relations with men which should forever take precedence over all other human relationships. And he emphasized that this intimate spiritual fellowship was to be extended to all men of all ages and of all social conditions among all peoples. The only reward which he held out for his children was: in this world — spiritual joy and divine communion; in the next world — eternal life in the progress of the divine spirit realities of the Paradise Father.

fanofVan wrote:
Me here: When repeated and reaffirmed and repeated more, such choices become wisdom...and habitual....and reflexive.

100:1.8 (1095.3) Religious habits of thinking and acting are contributory to the economy of spiritual growth. One can develop religious predispositions toward favorable reaction to spiritual stimuli, a sort of conditioned spiritual reflex. Habits which favor religious growth embrace cultivated sensitivity to divine values, recognition of religious living in others, reflective meditation on cosmic meanings, worshipful problem solving, sharing one’s spiritual life with one’s fellows, avoidance of selfishness, refusal to presume on divine mercy, living as in the presence of God. The factors of religious growth may be intentional, but the growth itself is unvaryingly unconscious.


Yes, and note too the conditioned spiritual reflexes include the elevation of wisdom through reflective meditation on cosmic meanings and worshipful problem solving. Reflective meditation, worship and prayer are all methods the spirit of wisdom utilizes to keep the gateway to spiritual insight open. When that happens there is increased sensitivity to divine values, the ability to see others the way the Father sees them as well as access to fellowship with the Spirit of Truth, who directs the sharing of the religious life with others. Spiritual insight is God consciousness which is essential to living as in the presence of God. Living in the presence of God is the recognition of sonship and sonship goes far in eventually destroying selfish tendencies. I think it is essential to understand how the spirit of wisdom works to help us open ourselves to all these treasures.

(1949.6) 180:5.4 The true child of universe insight looks for the living Spirit of Truth in every wise saying. The God-knowing individual is constantly elevating wisdom to the living-truth levels of divine attainment; the spiritually unprogressive soul is all the while dragging the living truth down to the dead levels of wisdom and to the domain of mere exalted knowledge.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Experiential Wisdom
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 4379
We are told that the Spirit of Truth follows us through our entire journey through the Superuniverse adventure, well beyond Nebadon!

So, what of our moronitial experience and that of our celestial brethren? How is truth realized and wisdom acquired beyond the reach and ministry of the Adjutants I wonder? Do the celestials also enjoy the Spirit of Truth ministry and the Holy Spirit??

Experiential wisdom is still acquired by one's decisions and by trial and error and trial and success!! Choices have similar repercussions and require both discernment and transcendent insight and expansion of consciousness and utilization of mind in response to our prior results.

Also, I wonder did Jesus as the Son of Man receive his Creator Son experiential wisdom after his baptism (a symbolic event that coincided with the completion of his 7th bestowal requirements)? I am quite certain the wisdom he demonstrated prior to that was human wisdom acquired as a mortal of the realm. But I have noticed that the Master's ministry and confrontational conflict with the priesthood exhibited uncanny wisdom as a thoughtful campaign of thrust and parry and advance and retreat and flanking maneuvers and timing and execution that was not an accidental sequence of haphazard events. He seemed to be in perfect control of events as they unfolded.

I do not mean to say that he manipulated these events in some predetermined destiny of outcome. No. He was often surprised I think. And even disappointed in some hopes he carried regarding the contemporary response to his ministry. But his actual ministry was a voluntary gift of love to Urantia and those times and those people, as well as to the future generations and all of Nebadon. I recall that the text says these bestowal Sons, either Creator or Magisterial Sons, who come to live among mortals who... "...are not put to death by violence..".

That really grabbed me in my first and all subsequent reads. Murder of Bestowal Sons is not the norm but neither is it so rare it seems. It depends upon the Mortal Epoch and the circumstances of the bestowal mission. These bestowals Sons, always born into the world of ministry as human babes, come to live with us and to be one of us to gain experiential wisdom and to intimately learn their great empathy and affection for the Local Universe mortals of time. Only one world of ten million has the Creator Son choose them for the 7th and final bestowal mission to become the Master Son of the Local Universe! That's why we are the one and only Shrine of Nebadon!

So....Jesus was not unaware of the potential and the probabilities of his own murder and violent end. Urantia is not the first or only world that brutally and violently terminate a Divine Son's bestowal mission and ministry as a mortal being. Every inhabited world receives such a bestowal ministry and Son...9,999,999 in each Local Universe receive a Magisterial Son. By this bestowal and ministry does each world receive the Spirit of the Son....the Local Universe Spirit of Truth.

I would love to consider how this Son's Spirit serves us in acquiring experiential wisdom. Kat has already offered great references to consider.

21:5.10 (241.4) The Master Sons seem to be in perfect communication with their bestowal worlds, not only the worlds of their personal sojourn but all worlds whereon a Magisterial Son has bestowed himself. This contact is maintained by their own spiritual presence, the Spirit of Truth, which they are able to “pour out upon all flesh.” These Master Sons also maintain an unbroken connection with the Eternal Mother Son at the center of all things. They possess a sympathetic reach which extends from the Universal Father on high to the lowly races of planetary life in the realms of time.

34:4.5 (377.9) The Creator Sons are endowed with a spirit of universe presence in many ways analogous to that of the Seven Master Spirits of Paradise. This is the Spirit of Truth which is poured out upon a world by a bestowal Son after he receives spiritual title to such a sphere. This bestowed Comforter is the spiritual force which ever draws all truth seekers towards Him who is the personification of truth in the local universe. This spirit is an inherent endowment of the Creator Son, emerging from his divine nature just as the master circuits of the grand universe are derived from the personality presences of the Paradise Deities.

34:4.6 (377.10) The Creator Son may come and go; his personal presence may be in the local universe or elsewhere; yet the Spirit of Truth functions undisturbed, for this divine presence, while derived from the personality of the Creator Son, is functionally centered in the person of the Divine Minister.

34:4.7 (378.1) The Universe Mother Spirit, however, never leaves the local universe headquarters world. The spirit of the Creator Son may and does function independently of the personal presence of the Son, but not so with her personal spirit. The Holy Spirit of the Divine Minister would become nonfunctional if her personal presence should be removed from Salvington. Her spirit presence seems to be fixed on the universe headquarters world, and it is this very fact that enables the spirit of the Creator Son to function independently of the whereabouts of the Son. The Universe Mother Spirit acts as the universe focus and center of the Spirit of Truth as well as of her own personal influence, the Holy Spirit.

117:5.8 (1286.6) And so it is with the spiritual circuits: Man utilizes these in his ascent through the universes, but he never possesses them as a part of his eternal personality. But these circuits of spiritual ministry, whether Spirit of Truth, Holy Spirit, or superuniverse spirit presences, are receptive and reactive to the emerging values in ascending personality, and these values are faithfully transmitted through the Sevenfold to the Supreme.

117:5.9 (1286.7) While such spiritual influences as the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Truth are local universe ministrations, their guidance is not wholly confined to the geographic limitations of a given local creation. As the ascending mortal passes beyond the boundaries of his local universe of origin, he is not entirely deprived of the ministry of the Spirit of Truth which has so constantly taught and guided him through the philosophic mazes of the material and morontial worlds, in every crisis of ascension unfailingly directing the Paradise pilgrim, ever saying: “This is the way.” When you leave the domains of the local universe, through the ministry of the spirit of the emerging Supreme Being and through the provisions of superuniverse reflectivity, you will still be guided in your Paradise ascent by the comforting directive spirit of the Paradise bestowal Sons of God.

8)


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Experiential Wisdom
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 4379
Kat posts above: "I personally don't think it's worthwhile discussing mota if there's no understanding of what wisdom entails while in the flesh, a time when we have to use revelation in mota's stead. None of us has a clue what mota is all about, so regurgitating material on the subject is not all that useful in our lives."

I wonder why then that mota is presented to us in the Papers?? It is mentioned in 11 different Papers:

https://www.urantia.org/urantia-book/se ... &op=Search

To me it seems to be directly connected to the topic of Experiential Wisdom. In fact, our very standing in wisdom progress and citizenship are directly related to our rating of experiential wisdom acquirement. Thus we are measured in our experiential wisdom progress and our advancement depends upon certain levels of wisdom acquired by experience. It seems that such information is very important to our consideration of the ascension career?!

45:7.6 (518.2) Suffrage is universal on Jerusem among these three groups of citizenship, but the vote is differentially cast in accordance with the recognized and duly registered personal possession of mota—morontia wisdom. The vote cast at a Jerusem election by any one personality has a value ranging from one up to one thousand. Jerusem citizens are thus classified in accordance with their mota achievement.

45:7.7 (518.3) From time to time Jerusem citizens present themselves to the Melchizedek examiners, who certify to their attainment of morontia wisdom. Then they go before the examining corps of the Brilliant Evening Stars or their designates, who ascertain the degree of spirit insight. Next they appear in the presence of the four and twenty counselors and their associates, who pass upon their status of experiential attainment of socialization. These three factors are then carried to the citizenship registrars of representative government, who quickly compute the mota status and assign suffrage qualifications in accordance therewith.

45:7.8 (518.4) Under the supervision of the Melchizedeks the ascending mortals, especially those who are tardy in their personality unification on the new morontia levels, are taken in hand by the Material Sons and are given intensive training designed to rectify such deficiencies. No ascending mortal leaves the system headquarters for the more extensive and varied socialization career of the constellation until these Material Sons certify to the achievement of mota personality—an individuality combining the completed mortal existence in experiential association with the budding morontia career, both being duly blended by the spiritual overcontrol of the Thought Adjuster.

Me here: 47:5.3 tells us that mota is an enhancements and continuation of human logic, reason, philosophy, metaphysics, and the comprehension of cosmic meanings. This certainly tells us of the value of such pursuits in this life I think. And demonstrates how important is intuition and insight and inspiration to human understanding of universe reality. Indeed, it tells us how important knowledge and understanding of reality are to wisdom itself!!

We are taught that the highest and most enlightened forms of human thought, reason, and wisdom actually touch upon mota in this life!!! And are given 28 fascinating and enlightening morsels of human philosophy as examples of such an intersection of mota and mortal thinking/understanding.

It is unfortunate if you find such a study a mere regurgitation of text. Why would you think anyone has even a clue as to the meaning the value of mota or how it relates to human thinking? If not important, then it would not be in the UB!

We must all begin somewhere. Perhaps consideration of and reflection upon these morsels of truth and wisdom might actually deliver insight and appreciation and guidance in such worthy pursuits of understanding?? I think so yes. Far better than those dense and paradoxical Zen koans I love so much!!

48:7.1 (556.1) The lower planes of morontia mota join directly with the higher levels of human philosophy. On the first mansion world it is the practice to teach the less advanced students by the parallel technique; that is, in one column are presented the more simple concepts of mota meanings, and in the opposite column citation is made of analogous statements of mortal philosophy.

48:7.2 (556.2) Not long since, while executing an assignment on the first mansion world of Satania, I had occasion to observe this method of teaching; and though I may not undertake to present the mota content of the lesson, I am permitted to record the twenty-eight statements of human philosophy which this morontia instructor was utilizing as illustrative material designed to assist these new mansion world sojourners in their early efforts to grasp the significance and meaning of mota. These illustrations of human philosophy were:

48:7.3 (556.3) 1. A display of specialized skill does not signify possession of spiritual capacity. Cleverness is not a substitute for true character.

48:7.4 (556.4) 2. Few persons live up to the faith which they really have. Unreasoned fear is a master intellectual fraud practiced upon the evolving mortal soul.

48:7.5 (556.5) 3. Inherent capacities cannot be exceeded; a pint can never hold a quart. The spirit concept cannot be mechanically forced into the material memory mold.

48:7.6 (556.6) 4. Few mortals ever dare to draw anything like the sum of personality credits established by the combined ministries of nature and grace. The majority of impoverished souls are truly rich, but they refuse to believe it.

48:7.7 (556.7) 5. Difficulties may challenge mediocrity and defeat the fearful, but they only stimulate the true children of the Most Highs.

48:7.8 (556.8) 6. To enjoy privilege without abuse, to have liberty without license, to possess power and steadfastly refuse to use it for self-aggrandizement—these are the marks of high civilization.

48:7.9 (556.9) 7. Blind and unforeseen accidents do not occur in the cosmos. Neither do the celestial beings assist the lower being who refuses to act upon his light of truth.

48:7.10 (556.10) 8. Effort does not always produce joy, but there is no happiness without intelligent effort.

48:7.11 (556.11) 9. Action achieves strength; moderation eventuates in charm.

48:7.12 (556.12) 10. Righteousness strikes the harmony chords of truth, and the melody vibrates throughout the cosmos, even to the recognition of the Infinite.

48:7.13 (556.13) 11. The weak indulge in resolutions, but the strong act. Life is but a day’s work—do it well. The act is ours; the consequences God’s.

48:7.14 (556.14) 12. The greatest affliction of the cosmos is never to have been afflicted. Mortals only learn wisdom by experiencing tribulation.

48:7.15 (556.15) 13. Stars are best discerned from the lonely isolation of experiential depths, not from the illuminated and ecstatic mountain tops.

48:7.16 (556.16) 14. Whet the appetites of your associates for truth; give advice only when it is asked for.

48:7.17 (557.1) 15. Affectation is the ridiculous effort of the ignorant to appear wise, the attempt of the barren soul to appear rich.

48:7.18 (557.2) 16. You cannot perceive spiritual truth until you feelingly experience it, and many truths are not really felt except in adversity.

48:7.19 (557.3) 17. Ambition is dangerous until it is fully socialized. You have not truly acquired any virtue until your acts make you worthy of it.

48:7.20 (557.4) 18. Impatience is a spirit poison; anger is like a stone hurled into a hornet’s nest.

48:7.21 (557.5) 19. Anxiety must be abandoned. The disappointments hardest to bear are those which never come.

48:7.22 (557.6) 20. Only a poet can discern poetry in the commonplace prose of routine existence.

48:7.23 (557.7) 21. The high mission of any art is, by its illusions, to foreshadow a higher universe reality, to crystallize the emotions of time into the thought of eternity.

48:7.24 (557.8) 22. The evolving soul is not made divine by what it does, but by what it strives to do.

48:7.25 (557.9) 23. Death added nothing to the intellectual possession or to the spiritual endowment, but it did add to the experiential status the consciousness of survival.

48:7.26 (557.10) 24. The destiny of eternity is determined moment by moment by the achievements of the day by day living. The acts of today are the destiny of tomorrow.

48:7.27 (557.11) 25. Greatness lies not so much in possessing strength as in making a wise and divine use of such strength.

48:7.28 (557.12) 26. Knowledge is possessed only by sharing; it is safeguarded by wisdom and socialized by love.

48:7.29 (557.13) 27. Progress demands development of individuality; mediocrity seeks perpetuation in standardization.

48:7.30 (557.14) 28. The argumentative defense of any proposition is inversely proportional to the truth contained.

48:7.31 (557.15) Such is the work of the beginners on the first mansion world while the more advanced pupils on the later worlds are mastering the higher levels of cosmic insight and morontia mota.

Don't you think each of the above important and interesting and related to experiential wisdom?? I do!!

:!: :idea: 8) :wink:


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Experiential Wisdom
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:16 pm +0000
Posts: 1166
Location: Nanticoke NY
Before I would begin to explain what knowledge or understanding really is meant in the Urantia Papers, I would look again at how to Jesus, personal religious experience was rendered forth through the unconsciousness of his being, and always a personal experience. Jesus role as a teacher was most dynamically edified through his personal experience with the Princes of India: Gonod the father and Ganid the son. So the opportunity to share knowledge and understanding, only occured during the periods of activity with other human minds that were truly sincere and receptive to his thoughts. And Jesus did not simply draw from his past experiences, but every moment in his life, he was, too, growing in experiencial wisdom, or "waxing strong in spirit" (developing in spiritual quality).

The work of the father goes before experiencial wisdom. Aspirations are not a fleeting experience of children, but the sons of man, the eternal child of man, are tied to those personal aspirations of everyone on Urantia. In order to be a good pupil, one must exhaust the daily potentials of human possibility, and there are universe cycles of activity and rest ordained that for after every successful period of activity, children might obtain true rest, and through that period of dormancy, comes the true emotional matriculation of faith, to rebuild the temple of the human thought processes, of human dexterity. And as long as one works, one obtains rest; one may experiencially grow.

If one does original work during the day and exhausts his creature potentials, there is a greater propensity to dream, not of the things of urantia, but of the actualities of the grand universe. But aspiration should not be cut short, and society should not pre-impose those potentials, but through the traditions of playing with clay, of dancing, and of carpentry, children might learn to imbellish their own personal style into the fabric of life on urantia. But my family is also required to produce the materials, to provide the clay, and to have planted and have grown the wood before it has been harvested.

_________________
to the Underlaying Unity of All Life so that the Voice of Intuition may guide Us closer to Our Common Keeper


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Experiential Wisdom
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:11 pm +0000
Posts: 932
fanofVan wrote:
So, what of our moronitial experience and that of our celestial brethren? How is truth realized and wisdom acquired beyond the reach and ministry of the Adjutants I wonder? Do the celestials also enjoy the Spirit of Truth ministry and the Holy Spirit??


Of course they do. The morontia mind is described here:

(481.2) 42:10.5 3. Evolving morontia minds — the expanding consciousness of evolving personalities in the local universe ascending careers. This is the bestowal of the local universe Mother Spirit in liaison with the Creator Son. This mind level connotes the organization of the morontia type of life vehicle, a synthesis of the material and the spiritual which is effected by the Morontia Power Supervisors of a local universe. Morontia mind functions differentially in response to the 570 levels of morontia life, disclosing increasing associative capacity with the cosmic mind on the higher levels of attainment. This is the evolutionary course of mortal creatures, but mind of a nonmorontia order is also bestowed by a Universe Son and a Universe Spirit upon the nonmorontia children of the local creations.

fanofVan wrote:
Experiential wisdom is still acquired by one's decisions and by trial and error and trial and success!!


At the animal and superanimal level, yes. But what about the progressive experience of ascending levels of wisdom and spiritual achievement, the psychic/cosmic circles? Human and superhuman experience is necessary for both. If we don't avail ourselves of all three reality insights, including spiritual insight, we are functioning on the animal level of existence. Reference:

(193.4) 16:7.5 When man fails to discriminate the ends of his mortal striving, he finds himself functioning on the animal level of existence. He has failed to avail himself of the superior advantages of that material acumen, moral discrimination, and spiritual insight which are an integral part of his cosmic-mind endowment as a personal being.

fanofVan wrote:
Choices have similar repercussions and require both discernment and transcendent insight and expansion of consciousness and utilization of mind in response to our prior results.


Isn't focusing on prior results emphasizing the past while ignoring the present and the future? What you are describing is wisdom of the world.

fanofVan wrote:
Also, I wonder did Jesus as the Son of Man receive his Creator Son experiential wisdom after his baptism (a symbolic event that coincided with the completion of his 7th bestowal requirements)?


He received his original existential wisdom and memories of all his bestowal experiences as well as a perfect unification of his human and divine minds.

(1512.7) 136:3.3 Jesus was then wholly self-conscious concerning his relation to the universe of his making and also to the universe of universes, supervised by the Paradise Father, his Father in heaven. He now fully recalled the bestowal charge and its instructions administered by his elder brother, Immanuel, ere he entered upon his Urantia incarnation. He now clearly and fully comprehended all these far-flung relationships, and he desired to be away for a season of quiet meditation so that he could think out the plans and decide upon the procedures for the prosecution of his public labors in behalf of this world and for all other worlds in his local universe.

(1514.5) 136:4.4 These forty days were the occasion of the final conference between the human and the divine minds, or rather the first real functioning of these two minds as now made one. The results of this momentous season of meditation demonstrated conclusively that the divine mind has triumphantly and spiritually dominated the human intellect. The mind of man has become the mind of God from this time on, and though the selfhood of the mind of man is ever present, always does this spiritualized human

fanofVan wrote:
He seemed to be in perfect control of events as they unfolded.


Because he was perfect, and still is a perfect union of human and divine, the creature and the Creator, the perfected and the perfect, the evolutionary/experiential and existential, a.k.a. a revelation of the Supreme.

fanofVan wrote:
I would love to consider how this Son's Spirit serves us in acquiring experiential wisdom.


Then you have to be willing to consider that wisdom is philosophy and the Spirit of Truth's philosophy is a superphilosophy. Our search for superphilosophy is filled with many paradoxes due to an absence of an experiential connection. The only connection we have is the adjutant of wisdom, which can reach up only so far, being material as it is. But because of her great mercy our Universe Mother provides the Holy Spirit who reaches down and provides the rest of the connection to the morontia soul.

Her consort, the Spirit of Truth, is able to utilize that connection also known as the vine. Those paradoxes of life can only be solved by a willingness to elevate wisdom to this level where the Holy Spirit of soul consciousness (supermind) can make contact to complete the connection. Here personality forms a relationship with Truth who will help us utilize the connection with greater super-wisdom.

Then there's more, the relationship in the soul strives to further elevate wisdom towards cosmic consciousness, or morontia consciousness, or superconsciousness, which can unify all three aspects of reality according to God's will. That is called spiritization which is followed by the Spirit of Truth's help in transforming this self-revelation into something true and actionable within our personal life experience. It's the greatest adventure of the flesh, to advance the self-consciousness to those glorious heights where the Spirit of Truth can teach truth and begin to reveal mota to the human soul for the purpose of actually living Truth.

(1121.4) 102:3.2 Therefore will religion always be characterized by paradoxes, the paradoxes resulting from the absence of the experiential connection between the material and the spiritual levels of the universe — morontia mota, the superphilosophic sensitivity for truth discernment and unity perception.

112:2.8 All mortal concepts of reality are based on the assumption of the actuality of human personality; all concepts of superhuman realities are based on the experience of the human personality with and in the cosmic realities of certain associated spiritual entities and divine personalities.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Experiential Wisdom
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 4379
katroofjebus wrote:

fanofVan wrote:
Choices have similar repercussions and require both discernment and transcendent insight and expansion of consciousness and utilization of mind in response to our prior results.


Isn't focusing on prior results emphasizing the past while ignoring the present and the future? What you are describing is wisdom of the world.

Me here: Not at all...wisdom in the moment is most accurate and real and effective when in the perspective and context of the time continuum that includes the past and future. Being aware of the outcomes and results of prior choices is not material (or "of the world")...it is mature and logical and functional and the very foundation of wisdom itself! Your claim is illogical and contrary to the UB. Clearly so.

Making decisions without regard to past results is most likely to merely repeat immature and unwise habits and patterns of choice! Wisdom is a function of experience! It is choosing timing, strategies, and tactics in response to situations and circumstances for the very purpose of improving those responses and being more aware of the subtleties and probabilities of impact and outcome. What are discernment and insight for then...if not learning from experience how better to choose?

So I will still claim: "Choices have similar repercussions and require both discernment and transcendent insight and expansion of consciousness and utilization of mind in response to our prior results."


118:1.4 (1295.4) Experience, wisdom, and judgment are the concomitants of the lengthening of the time unit in mortal experience. As the human mind reckons backward into the past, it is evaluating past experience for the purpose of bringing it to bear on a present situation. As mind reaches out into the future, it is attempting to evaluate the future significance of possible action. And having thus reckoned with both experience and wisdom, the human will exercises judgment-decision in the present, and the plan of action thus born of the past and the future becomes existent.

118:1.5 (1295.5) In the maturity of the developing self, the past and future are brought together to illuminate the true meaning of the present. As the self matures, it reaches further and further back into the past for experience, while its wisdom forecasts seek to penetrate deeper and deeper into the unknown future. And as the conceiving self extends this reach ever further into both past and future, so does judgment become less and less dependent on the momentary present. In this way does decision-action begin to escape from the fetters of the moving present, while it begins to take on the aspects of past-future significance.



fanofVan wrote:
Also, I wonder did Jesus as the Son of Man receive his Creator Son experiential wisdom after his baptism (a symbolic event that coincided with the completion of his 7th bestowal requirements)?


He received his original existential wisdom and memories of all his bestowal experiences as well as a perfect unification of his human and divine minds.

(1512.7) 136:3.3 Jesus was then wholly self-conscious concerning his relation to the universe of his making and also to the universe of universes, supervised by the Paradise Father, his Father in heaven. He now fully recalled the bestowal charge and its instructions administered by his elder brother, Immanuel, ere he entered upon his Urantia incarnation. He now clearly and fully comprehended all these far-flung relationships, and he desired to be away for a season of quiet meditation so that he could think out the plans and decide upon the procedures for the prosecution of his public labors in behalf of this world and for all other worlds in his local universe.

(1514.5) 136:4.4 These forty days were the occasion of the final conference between the human and the divine minds, or rather the first real functioning of these two minds as now made one. The results of this momentous season of meditation demonstrated conclusively that the divine mind has triumphantly and spiritually dominated the human intellect. The mind of man has become the mind of God from this time on, and though the selfhood of the mind of man is ever present, always does this spiritualized human

fanofVan wrote:
He seemed to be in perfect control of events as they unfolded.


Because he was perfect, and still is a perfect union of human and divine, the creature and the Creator, the perfected and the perfect, the evolutionary/experiential and existential, a.k.a. a revelation of the Supreme..

Me here: If the Supreme is experiential, then so too are the Paradise Sons, including the Creator Sons. They have origin and a beginning of experience. How do such Paradise origin beings have existential mind and/or wisdom? I do not claim they do not...but how does the child or being created by existential parents access or share existential consciousness and wisdom?

How is it those deemed to be experiential are perfect? Is a Master Son then more perfect than the Creator Son that they were prior to completion of the 7th bestowal? How can a Creator or Paradise Son be considered "perfect" when their wisdom requires experience?


0:1.18 (3.5) Divinity may be perfect—complete—as on existential and creator levels of Paradise perfection; it may be imperfect, as on experiential and creature levels of time-space evolution; or it may be relative, neither perfect nor imperfect, as on certain Havona levels of existential-experiential relationships.

21:1.2 (235.1) Each Creator Son is the only-begotten and only-begettable offspring of the perfect union of the original concepts of the two infinite and eternal and perfect minds of the ever-existent Creators of the universe of universes. There never can be another such Son because each Creator Son is the unqualified, finished, and final expression and embodiment of all of every phase of every feature of every possibility of every divine reality that could, throughout all eternity, ever be found in, expressed by, or evolved from, those divine creative potentials which united to bring this Michael Son into existence. Each Creator Son is the absolute of the united deity concepts which constitute his divine origin.

21:1.3 (235.2) The divine natures of these Creator Sons are, in principle, derived equally from the attributes of both Paradise parents. All partake of the fullness of the divine nature of the Universal Father and of the creative prerogatives of the Eternal Son, but as we observe the practical outworking of the Michael functions in the universes, we discern apparent differences. Some Creator Sons appear to be more like God the Father; others more like God the Son. For example: The trend of administration in the universe of Nebadon suggests that its Creator and ruling Son is one whose nature and character more resemble that of the Eternal Mother Son. It should be further stated that some universes are presided over by Paradise Michaels who appear equally to resemble God the Father and God the Son. And these observations are in no sense implied criticisms; they are simply a recording of fact.

21:2.9 (236.7) When such a perfect and divine Son has taken possession of the space site of his chosen universe; when the initial problems of universe materialization and of gross equilibrium have been resolved; when he has formed an effective and co-operative working union with the complemental Daughter of the Infinite Spirit—then do this Universe Son and this Universe Spirit initiate that liaison which is designed to give origin to the innumerable hosts of their local universe children. In connection with this event the Creative Spirit focalization of the Paradise Infinite Spirit becomes changed in nature, taking on the personal qualities of the Mother Spirit of a local universe.



Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Experiential Wisdom
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:11 pm +0000
Posts: 932
fanofVan wrote:
Me here: If the Supreme is experiential, then so too are the Paradise Sons, including the Creator Sons.


The term "existential" has to do with origins. The Paradise Creator Sons are existential in origin. They then go on to participate in the experience of descending by creating a universe in time and space. It's very similar to the Thought Adjusters who have existential origins and then go on to participate in the experience of co-creating an ascending-son. The Supreme cannot evolve without the participation between existential and experiential, descending and ascending beings. That's why the height of beauty is the unification of contrasts, between creature and Creator, the imperfect and perfect, co-creating together for the purpose of evolving the supremely beautiful, God the Supreme.

(646.4) 56:10.3 The supreme beauty, the height of finite art, is the drama of the unification of the vastness of the cosmic extremes of Creator and creature. Man finding God and God finding man — the creature becoming perfect as is the Creator — that is the supernal achievement of the supremely beautiful, the attainment of the apex of cosmic art.

fanofVan wrote:
They have origin and a beginning of experience. How do such Paradise origin beings have existential mind and/or wisdom? I do not claim they do not...but how does the child or being created by existential parents access or share existential consciousness and wisdom?
How is it those deemed to be experiential are perfect?


Creator Sons are not created, they are only theoretical offspring. If you recall the Revelation refers to the Eternal Son as an offspring for the purpose of describing origins. Clearly the Second Source and Center is not a created offspring, and neither are the Creator Sons.

(88:1) 7:6.3 The Original and Eternal Son is the offspring-person of the "first" completed and infinite thought of the Universal Father.

The Creator Sons are actuated, or eventuated, from two members of the infinite and eternal Trinity which has no beginning or end, so the Creator Sons don't either; they are made of the same substance. Being of one substance with the Father and Eternal Son, the Creator Sons are personalized perfect concepts of Divinity. Because of our human need for a timeline, the authors of the next reference plot out the origin of the Creator Sons as though it were an actual beginning. But if you read carefully they use these words and phrases in describing Creator Sons: absolute, infinite oneness, without loss of anything, perfection and flashes. The flash is something which takes place within the circle of eternity, without actual beginning or end, but described as a point on that circle for the purpose of description. There never was a time when the members of the Trinity were not ONE, so a creative union between members cannot occur at a specified time, or beginning, either.

(234.6) 21:1.1 When the fullness of absolute spiritual ideation in the Eternal Son encounters the fullness of absolute personality concept in the Universal Father, when such a creative union is finally and fully attained, when such absolute identity of spirit and such infinite oneness of personality concept occur, then, right then and there, without the loss of anything of personality or prerogative by either of the infinite Deities, there flashes into full-fledged being a new and original Creator Son, the only-begotten Son of the perfect ideal and the powerful idea whose union produces this new creator personality of power and perfection.

There's a difference between the words "origin" and "beginning". In this regard they are not interchangeable. The Creator Sons are creators so they themselves cannot be created, their origin is an existential flash. They originate directly from the unattenuated creative spark of Trinity Deity. They cannot be attenuated or they would also have attenuated creative ability. Here's another reference which states the Creator Sons are perfect and ONE with the Universal Father.

(28:3) 1:5.6 The Father and his Sons are one. These Paradise Sons of the order of Michael are perfect personalities,––

fanofVan wrote:
Is a Master Son then more perfect than the Creator Son that they were prior to completion of the 7th bestowal? How can a Creator or Paradise Son be considered "perfect" when their wisdom requires experience?


A Master Son has a perfected experience in addition to a perfect existential existence. He has both, which is why a Master Son is a revelation of the Supreme. A Paradise Son's wisdom is perfect because he is ONE with the Father, and also a PERFECT being himself. A Paradise Son gains perfected experiential wisdom by undergoing seven bestowals, which is in addition to his already perfect divine wisdom.

Remember that perfect divine wisdom always does the same thing in the same way because it is the best way and the right way. But out here in the seven superuniverses, where nothing is perfect, other influences come into play which require adaptation, known as experience. Eventually though, the seven superuniverses will be brought to a condition of stability where divine wisdom rules and the same thing can be done in the same way because it is best and right, also known as God the Supreme. The Universal Father sends his Creator Sons into these universes in order to accomplish this very thing through revealing the will of God and the wisdom of God.

(137.5) 12:7.2 You observe that God does the same thing in the same way, repeatedly, simply because that is the best way to do that particular thing in a given circumstance; and the best way is the right way, and therefore does infinite wisdom always order it done in that precise and perfect manner. You should also remember that nature is not the exclusive act of Deity; other influences are present in those phenomena which man calls nature.

(137.8 ) 12:7.5 Because God is changeless, therefore can you depend, in all ordinary circumstances, on his doing the same thing in the same identical and ordinary way. God is the assurance of stability for all created things and beings. He is God; therefore he changes not.

Here is another reference describing the difference between a Creator Son and a Master Son:

(1318:5) 119:8.6 In the experience of descending from God to man, Michael was concomitantly experiencing the ascent from partiality of manifestability to supremacy of finite action and finality of the liberation of his potential for absonite function. Michael, a Creator Son, is a time-space creator, but Michael, a sevenfold Master Son, is a member of one of the divine corps constituting the Trinity Ultimate.

You provided this following reference presumably as proof that Creator Sons are not existential, but the first sentence states that divinity is completely perfect on existential and creator levels of Paradise. What do you think it means by creator levels of Paradise? It means Creator Sons, beings from Paradise who create. "Existential" and "creator" are levels of Paradise, a perfect place with perfect beings, unlike Havona which has beings who are neither perfect or imperfect. Creator Sons are not from Havona, they are from Paradise.

0:1.18 (3.5) Divinity may be perfect—complete—as on existential and creator levels of Paradise perfection; it may be imperfect, as on experiential and creature levels of time-space evolution; or it may be relative, neither perfect nor imperfect, as on certain Havona levels of existential-experiential relationships.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Experiential Wisdom
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 4379
You misunderstand...I clearly said I don't disbelieve the claim that the Paradise Sons are perfect...the text is clear on the matter. I did post from Paper 21 as to the Creator Sons' perfection. I claimed confusion, not doubt or disbelief. Thanks for helping me find the proof that Creator Sons are perfect....AND experiential!

I did claim earlier that the Supreme and Paradise Sons are experiential beings. And, in fact, they are. I remain confused as to how beings with origin and who gain wisdom experientially and are called experiential beings in the Papers are also, somehow, existential. And I do remain doubtful as well as perplexed by the matter. May require some future mota to untangle. I can wait. In the meantime, your claim that the Paradise Sons or the Creator Sons have no beginning but have origin does not make sense to me.

I'll take it as an opinion rather than a fact...for now anyway. I really appreciate your presentation and the clarification of your thinking...but I do not agree with your presumptions or conclusions...and think some of it as illogical. We are told some things are unrevealed and some cannot be understood with human mind. I'll go with that. But really....thank you. It helps.

The quote says..."... there flashes into full-fledged being a new and original Creator Son...". There was no such origination of God or the Trinity. There is a difference between the parent/source and the child/progeny/creation of the parent/source. The UB clearly names the original Trinity Deity as the only existential personalities in creation and that all the rest of creation and all beings in that creation have origination in, from, or by that Trinity. 0:1.18 clearly says "...existential and creator levels of Paradise perfection..." but the Creator Sons are not creators of or in Paradise. Are you claiming the God has origin but origin without beginning??? Your claim is origin and beginning mean two different things...definitely an opinion I think.

The Master Son cannot be existential because of being perfect. Perfect is not the definition of existential in the Papers. Perfection can be created by those who are perfect...or so I think.

However, I am fascinated by those beings which have the "nature" of their existential sources and those beings who bridge the gulf between the experiential and existential. So fascinating that finaliters are one of those! What a destiny for tadpoles.

Again Kat...thank you very much for your presentations and research. You really make me think and reconsider. Please don't take my perplexions and confusions personally!

:wink: :biggrin:


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Experiential Wisdom
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:16 pm +0000
Posts: 1166
Location: Nanticoke NY
Master Spirit Seven and Master Son are different, because Master Son implies the sovereignty of Nebadon, the time-sovereignty of Michael the Creator Son throughout Nebadon, and the space-sovereignty of his counterpart, the Divine Minister of Salvington. But can you wholly disregard that Michael the Creator Son, while rendering his service wholly in conformity with the Universal Father, and all His Personality Attributes that could have been bestowed upon the creatures of Nebadon, also did so within Uversa, and as a service to Master Spirit Number Seven.


Consider the magnitude of Master Spirit Seven's responsibilities. He is like the Father of the Seventh Superuniverse of Time. Therefore, all the ordainments that the 100,000 Sons of the Order of Michael, for the experiencial ascencion of their creatures, was rendered not only in conformity with the Universal Father's will, but suitable to the experience of Master Spirit Seven.

Well, you should address the relationship between the Three Deities who are wholly existential, and their relationships, separately as Persons, to each of the Seven Master Spirits. The Seven Master Spirits contain the time relationship of experience, all that is experiencible as a creature, even before the Ancients of Days were entered into the records of Uversa. Thus, even the 3 Presiding Ancients of Days within the seventh superuniverse, although creatures created conjointly of Uversa and the 3 Existential Deities, were "born in time" even though the Creator Sons were not.

How does a Time-Universe become populated with Beings who originated existentially, I wonder? I speculate that those Beings must have needed to fulfill God's purpose here, needed to become experiencialised or manifest in a way that revealed the nature of the universal father to the creatures of space, in a way that revealed the Father-Nature to the space-creature.

Whereas Michael "completed" or "finalised" the fact of his personality's unity with the Supreme Being AND the Universal Father, through his bestowals, also did the Eternal Mother "factualise" the reality of personality-conformity with the First Source through His Bestowals, seven, within the Central Universe. And so, too, will Master Spirit number seven reveal the Will of the Universal Father, reveal the predominant Nature of the Universal Father, even in one who is the cocreation of the relationship of Three Original Persons experiencially-eventuationally through His, Master Spirit Seven's, relationship to the Supreme Being.

And that became part of Master Spirit Seven's total experience, so now it is said of Michael, that he is the "Master" Son, a revelation of the Supreme Experience to All who happen to be in Nebadon, and the moment when you reach/attain Salvington as the beginning of your ultimate experiences in the seventh superuniverse. He is the Master, because Michael knows the destiny of every being created within Nebadon, and Michael achieved/revealed his destiny (realised the final component of his destiny) here as the lowliest of created beings.

But how do you separate the identities of Michael, as Sovereign Son, from Master Spirit Seven? Michael is the experiencial completion of individual destiny as a Being within Nebadon, but He is, to us, also our Father, the Father/Creator of Nebadon. And Michael's work was completed within a Sovereign Universe that has yet to be experiencially realised; therefore the experiencial realisation of Uversa Himself seems also inevitable. Therefore, how will the First Source and Center help Master Spirit Seven to realise the completion of Orvonton as an Experiencial Child of Uversa (Uversa is the Parent of Orvonton)?

Or, if I can restate this a la Dr. McCoy, Michael is the Alefa and Michael is the Tava. Michael descended from Paradise, through Uversa, but he returned thereto, through Orvonton.

_________________
to the Underlaying Unity of All Life so that the Voice of Intuition may guide Us closer to Our Common Keeper


Last edited by SEla_Kelly on Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:40 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Experiential Wisdom
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:27 pm +0000
Posts: 97
Location: west central florida
Here's how I think about the perfection of Creator Sons, or of other celestial beings: they are perfectly capable of doing the service they were created for, but no being but the Universal Father is perfect in all things. They need experience, they need to learn new things, and grew in the process. And they can err. Lucifer was not a Creator Son, a Son nonetheless, but willful and disbelieving in the Universal Father. What an amazing thing!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Experiential Wisdom
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:11 pm +0000
Posts: 932
fanofVan wrote:
I did claim earlier that the Supreme and Paradise Sons are experiential beings. And, in fact, they are.


In fact the Supreme is an experiential entity, but Paradise Sons are NOT. They are existential beings participating in experience as part of their service. Existential Thought Adjusters participate in experience as well. The Supreme, on the other hand, is entirely experiential. It's your terminology that is confusing you.

Creator Sons are existential beings manifesting an experience, finding man so man can find God. That does not make them experiential beings; it makes them existential beings participating with experience to fulfill their service. Experiential beings have beginnings; the are created by Creators. Creator Sons do not have beginnings and they are not created; they are existential and perfect. They descend from Paradise in order to manifest the evolutionary experience of Supremacy, or the next manifestation of the Godhead, or Trinity, through the commingling of the experiential creature with the existential Creator. The only way that can happen is if the existential Creator comes to the experiential creature and reveals himself as ONE with the Father.

(297:2) 26:11.5 The mortal creature must find God. The Creator Son never stops until he finds man — the lowest will creature. Beyond doubt, the Creator Sons and their mortal children are preparing for some future and unknown universe service. Both traverse the gamut of the experiential universe and so are educated and trained for their eternal mission. Throughout the universes there is occurring this unique blending of the human and the divine, the commingling of creature and Creator.

fanofVan wrote:
I remain confused as to how beings with origin and who gain wisdom experientially and are called experiential beings in the Papers are also, somehow, existential.


I have yet to find a reference that calls a Creator Son an experiential being. Do you have one? Actually, I can find only one reference for "experiential being" and it's about the post-Supreme universe age.

fanofVan wrote:
In the meantime, your claim that the Paradise Sons or the Creator Sons have no beginning but have origin does not make sense to me.


Does the origin of the Trinity from the I AM make sense to you? If so, it's the same thing. I also think you have difficulty with the concept that existential beings can evolve without changing their status as existential beings. Creator Sons evolve by participating with experience, but they remain as existential beings because their origin is existential reality, the reality of the Trinity.

fanofVan wrote:
The quote says..."... there flashes into full-fledged being a new and original Creator Son...". There was no such origination of God or the Trinity.


Not so. The Infinite Spirit, or Conjoint Actor, or Third Source and Center, flashed into existence:

The Almighty Supreme is now factualizing in time and space through the activities of the Supreme Creator Personalities, even as in eternity the Conjoint Actor flashed into being by the will of the Universal Father and the Eternal Son.

fanofVan wrote:
0:1.18 clearly says "...existential and creator levels of Paradise perfection..." but the Creator Sons are not creators of or in Paradise.


What? If Creator Sons are not in Paradise, or don't come from Paradise, why are they called Paradise Sons? In the next references their origin is clear, it's Paradise! Of course they don't create Paradise itself, they create a new paradise in the evolving superuniverses.

7:6.2 ––the Paradise Sons who go out from the eternal Isle to reveal his divine character to the universe of universes.
7:6.4 The Creator Sons go out from Paradise into the universes of time ––
21:0.3 These primary Paradise Sons are personalized as Michaels. As they go forth from Paradise to found their universes, they are known as Creator Michaels.

fanofVan wrote:
Perfect is not the definition of existential in the Papers. Perfection can be created by those who are perfect...or so I think.


The reference, 0:1.18, states that Deity can be perfect as on existential levels of Paradise perfection. That pretty much marries perfect and existential in my mind. Creator Sons are perfect beings of Deity origin so they are technically NOT evolutionary in nature, as described below, despite the fact that they participate with and in evolution and experience. Evolutionary and experiential are essentially the same thing, so origin matters. Paradise Creator Sons originate, or flash into existence, within existential Paradise.

(361:3) 32:3.8 Excepting perfect beings of Deity origin, all will creatures in the superuniverses are of evolutionary nature, ––

fanofVan wrote:
Again Kat...thank you very much for your presentations and research. You really make me think and reconsider. Please don't take my perplexions and confusions personally!


Thanks for saying that. Sometimes I get frustrated and think my work is futile. I'm so glad it makes you think though, very glad actually. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to share my understanding.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 195 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Registered users: Google [Bot]


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You can post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group