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Makalu wrote:
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First what is a prophet? The most obvious is one who foretells of future events with a degree of accuracy. That skill in speaking future events can be both from calculation or with communication with celestial entities.


it was posted before but in the papers true prophetic vision is defined as a superpsychologic presentiment

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91:7.3 (1000.4) Religious ecstasy is permissible when resulting from sane antecedents, but such experiences are more often the outgrowth of purely emotional influences than a manifestation of deep spiritual character. Religious persons must not regard every vivid psychologic presentiment and every intense emotional experience as a divine revelation or a spiritual communication. Genuine spiritual ecstasy is usually associated with great outward calmness and almost perfect emotional control. But true prophetic vision is a superpsychologic presentiment. Such visitations are not pseudo hallucinations, neither are they trancelike ecstasies.


We need to be careful about too narrow and specific a definition. I can name a couple of dozen, at least, in the last century I personally consider prophets according to these quotes already posted above:

91:7.2 The great religious teachers and the prophets of past ages were not extreme mystics. They were God-knowing men and women who best served their God by unselfish ministry to their fellow mortals....

92:5.16 The future of Urantia will doubtless be characterized by the appearance of teachers of religious truth - the Fatherhood of God and the fraternity of all creatures. But it is to be hoped that the ardent and sincere efforts of these future prophets will be directed less toward the strengthening of interreligious barriers and more toward the augmentation of the religious brotherhood of spiritual worship among the many followers of the differing intellectual theologies which so characterize Urantia of Satania.


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fanofVan wrote:
Makalu wrote:
Quote:
First what is a prophet? The most obvious is one who foretells of future events with a degree of accuracy. That skill in speaking future events can be both from calculation or with communication with celestial entities.


it was posted before but in the papers true prophetic vision is defined as a superpsychologic presentiment

Quote:
91:7.3 (1000.4) Religious ecstasy is permissible when resulting from sane antecedents, but such experiences are more often the outgrowth of purely emotional influences than a manifestation of deep spiritual character. Religious persons must not regard every vivid psychologic presentiment and every intense emotional experience as a divine revelation or a spiritual communication. Genuine spiritual ecstasy is usually associated with great outward calmness and almost perfect emotional control. But true prophetic vision is a superpsychologic presentiment. Such visitations are not pseudo hallucinations, neither are they trancelike ecstasies.


We need to be careful about too narrow and specific a definition. I can name a couple of dozen, at least, in the last century I personally consider prophets according to these quotes already posted above:

91:7.2 The great religious teachers and the prophets of past ages were not extreme mystics. They were God-knowing men and women who best served their God by unselfish ministry to their fellow mortals....

92:5.16 The future of Urantia will doubtless be characterized by the appearance of teachers of religious truth - the Fatherhood of God and the fraternity of all creatures. But it is to be hoped that the ardent and sincere efforts of these future prophets will be directed less toward the strengthening of interreligious barriers and more toward the augmentation of the religious brotherhood of spiritual worship among the many followers of the differing intellectual theologies which so characterize Urantia of Satania.


uh well i'd say it's more like be aware that the noun has a broader relative definition than the verb and not all capable of superpsychological presentiment voice it and acquire the label "prophet" in some fashion. op concerns prophecy and the main point i see in the definition is superpsychological is still sub-spiritual.


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Makalu wrote:
uh well i'd say it's more like be aware that the noun has a broader relative definition than the verb and not all capable of superpsychological presentiment voice it and acquire the label "prophet" in some fashion. op concerns prophecy and the main point i see in the definition is superpsychological is still sub-spiritual.


As you suggest, I have to ask, do true prophets actually need to make prophesies in order to qualify as such? Aren't true prophets those who are gifted with particularly acute spiritual insight? Spiritual insight is a gift given to all, but not all desire to discover, recognize, interpret or choose it. Spiritual insight is something that accrues within the superpsychological mind due to the presence of the Thought Adjuster. Its accrual requires God-hunger and the gradual assurance that comes from the experience of God-consciousness. (2094.9) 196:3.10; (1105:2) 101:1.5; (1001:3) 91:7.5

In regards to "superpsychological presentiment" I believe they are referring to an intuitive feeling arising from the superconscious level of God-consciousness, as opposed to the subconscious trancelike state of a false prophet, or the emotion-laden psychology of the conscious psyche.


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katroofjebus wrote:
Makalu wrote:
uh well i'd say it's more like be aware that the noun has a broader relative definition than the verb and not all capable of superpsychological presentiment voice it and acquire the label "prophet" in some fashion. op concerns prophecy and the main point i see in the definition is superpsychological is still sub-spiritual.


As you suggest, I have to ask, do true prophets actually need to make prophesies in order to qualify as such? Aren't true prophets those who are gifted with particularly acute spiritual insight? Spiritual insight is a gift given to all, but not all desire to discover, recognize, interpret or choose it. Spiritual insight is something that accrues within the superpsychological mind due to the presence of the Thought Adjuster. Its accrual requires God-hunger and the gradual assurance that comes from the experience of God-consciousness. (2094.9) 196:3.10; (1105:2) 101:1.5; (1001:3) 91:7.5

In regards to "superpsychological presentiment" I believe they are referring to an intuitive feeling arising from the superconscious level of God-consciousness, as opposed to the subconscious trancelike state of a false prophet, or the emotion-laden psychology of the conscious psyche.


So well said....thank you. Prophets are not required to portend or predict to prophesy. They bring insight, foresight, warning, wisdom, and inspiration to an audience that may grow over time and over multiple generations. Great quotes.


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katroofjebus wrote:


As you suggest, I have to ask, do true prophets actually need to make prophesies in order to qualify as such?


no, that's why i pointed out the distinction in my response

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In regards to "superpsychological presentiment" I believe they are referring to an intuitive feeling arising from the superconscious level of God-consciousness, as opposed to the subconscious trancelike state of a false prophet, or the emotion-laden psychology of the conscious psyche.


i believe it's referring to none of those...but only based on my own personal experience. albeit i have to point out that foreknowledge of a solar eclipse as the papers indicate a true prophet did isnt a particularly spiritual and god-consciousness learning and growing thing to know. not the only example though i'm sure.


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To answer your question Katro, yes, that's what is written about Samuel in tUB, a very compulsive personality.

Okay, so if people who have the potential for what Makalu mentions, is "the superpsychologic presentiment," which I think we can agree is the very essence of what psychologists describe as "Gestallt impressions". So I am not arguing against the facts of this kind of experience. I am just saying, "don't let the awesomeness overpower you."

Maintain your emotional composure, and know that fulfilling prophecy is about doing, not saying. You need to have faith even in your own mind: emotions are a sacred geometry that forms to hold/disseminate your mindal experiences. People say this "you only see what you want to see", but without properly formed emotional units (hormonally and physiologically), I think a person actually sees very little.

Again, if a person is entitled to the fulmination of his actual choices, as is recognised by God the Almighty, then this is much greater than being a prophet. Do not be like Bradley, to treat any pronouncement that bears the appearance of universal wisdom, or to say that the Urantia Book is a source of prophecy. In fact, I advice if you hear your children's, your sibling's choices, then you are bound to protect the experience and later show how such choices became manifest.

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Makalu wrote:
albeit i have to point out that foreknowledge of a solar eclipse as the papers indicate a true prophet did isnt a particularly spiritual and god-consciousness learning and growing thing to know.


I definitely agree, but I'm wondering if foreknowledge and the ability to make predictions is really a part of superpsychologic presentiment, or rather a natural consequence of wisdom. Yet prophets are sometimes called wisemen, which adds to the confusion, at least for me.

Here are two examples of visionary prophets mentioned in the Revelation which do not include prognostication but do suggest a superpsychologic presentiment.

p539:4 47:10.2 John the Revelator saw a vision of the arrival of a class of advancing mortals from the seventh mansion world to their first heaven, the glories of Jerusem. He recorded: "And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire; and those who had gained the victory over the beast that was originally in them and over the image that persisted through the mansion worlds and finally over the last mark and trace, standing on the sea of glass, having the harps of God, and singing the song of deliverance from mortal fear and death." (Perfected space communication is to be had on all these worlds; and your anywhere reception of such communications is made possible by carrying the "harp of God," a morontia contrivance compensating for the inability to directly adjust the immature morontia sensory mechanism to the reception of space communications.)

(539:5) 47:10.3 Paul also had a view of the ascendant-citizen corps of perfecting mortals on Jerusem, for he wrote: "But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the grand assembly of Michael, and to the spirits of just men being made perfect."


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If all persons have the power to make actual choices, then you must abridge prophecy with the restraints of fatherly logic. Jesus or the ascended Master Son put it this way, "If you love me, Peter, you will feed my sheep." In a sense, we must all accept under different terms, the foreknowledge of how "God knows our own hearts." Therefore, in teaching others how they may optimize their skill sets, expand the field of potential their perceptions may grasp, but certainly one must understand, that choices can be defeated by anxiety and/or complacency, they require commitment and certain obligations, always, and thus by honoring contracts under the effort of virtuousness, one may learn in the most certain and affirmative manner, how one may transcend the decadence and the lure of the original life as passionate intelligent animal mortals. That is to say, place not your commitments in the pen and pad, but learn to honour the word you have given to other men. Let not other men study your ways, let you be responsible for the choices they are making. And in the final sense, every child of Urantia is a prophet, God's son, because truly in the end each of we will be had our way with God, amen.

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katroofjebus wrote:
Makalu wrote:
albeit i have to point out that foreknowledge of a solar eclipse as the papers indicate a true prophet did isnt a particularly spiritual and god-consciousness learning and growing thing to know.


I definitely agree, but I'm wondering if foreknowledge and the ability to make predictions is really a part of superpsychologic presentiment, or rather a natural consequence of wisdom. Yet prophets are sometimes called wisemen, which adds to the confusion, at least for me.

Here are two examples of visionary prophets mentioned in the Revelation which do not include prognostication but do suggest a superpsychologic presentiment.

p539:4 47:10.2 John the Revelator saw a vision of the arrival of a class of advancing mortals from the seventh mansion world to their first heaven, the glories of Jerusem. He recorded: "And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire; and those who had gained the victory over the beast that was originally in them and over the image that persisted through the mansion worlds and finally over the last mark and trace, standing on the sea of glass, having the harps of God, and singing the song of deliverance from mortal fear and death." (Perfected space communication is to be had on all these worlds; and your anywhere reception of such communications is made possible by carrying the "harp of God," a morontia contrivance compensating for the inability to directly adjust the immature morontia sensory mechanism to the reception of space communications.)

(539:5) 47:10.3 Paul also had a view of the ascendant-citizen corps of perfecting mortals on Jerusem, for he wrote: "But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the grand assembly of Michael, and to the spirits of just men being made perfect."


well i think those are two examples of revelation, which probably involves the superconscious, and the events revealed aren't necessarily future events.


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I agree...personal revelation is not prophesy or prophetic. And there is nothing about the future in John's vision. That is an error of others much later.....to make that vision about the end of times....which the UB certainly refutes.

Predicting and predictions may not be required of prophesy but that doesn't mean that John's vision makes him a prophet either. What is prophetic about this personal experience and vision?


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What is prophetic is that John the Revelator had seen the actual mansonia - Jerusem, and the seven spheres of morontial candidates. That is currently regarded as the great meeting ground of all believing souls, who graduated the material coil. Well, but it does not pertain to the true destiny of human ascenders, individually so you're right, but people regard this as prophetic, being in the sense, the beginning of what the sons of man must inevitably cross through (what we each must experience before having obtained and activated our individuated destinies), after Urantia from Satania to Salvington. But to me, those are inevitabilities, facts of the grand universe, and what is considered prophetic, is to help that person to realise the father within her. But I cannot speak about the emergence of the supreme being, there is no need to explain how this occurs to you who must understand so well. Again, this is found not in my prayer, but in the fulfillment of Jesus' prayer, to see each of us, as we are existence on Paradise, before this Urantia sphere had begun its Life, you can know who each of we truly is, personally.

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Good point....I agree. The vision is not about the future of Urantia but is a vision of the future of mortal ascenders.

Cool. 8)


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Makalu wrote:
well i think those are two examples of revelation, which probably involves the superconscious, and the events revealed aren't necessarily future events.


Yes, that was my point in posting them. And I think the superconscious involves the superpsyche which gives rise to superpsychological presentiments.


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katroofjebus wrote:

Yes, that was my point in posting them. And I think the superconscious involves the superpsyche which gives rise to superpsychological presentiments.


but there's no presentimental vision in the examples given so i'm not seeing a connection.

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Religious persons must not regard every vivid psychologic presentiment and every intense emotional experience as a divine revelation or a spiritual
communication.


i'm not reading "must not regard every" as "may regard some" in the quote there, even though there are experiences that conjoin the psychological with the spiritual like conversion, i cant think of any also conjoined with a vivid psychologic presentiment.


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Makalu wrote:
but there's no presentimental vision in the examples given so i'm not seeing a connection.


I realize the dictionary definition of "presentiment" centers predominantly on foreboding intuitions of future unpleasantries, but I don't think that's the emphasis in the reference under consideration. I believe the word can also refer to a "sixth sense", the faculty of being aware of something beyond the bounds of normal perception. At lease "sixth sense" is offered as a synonym for presentiment. In the reference cited the word is used in relation to emotional experiences falsely assumed to be spiritual communications as well as real and true prophetic visions. By "prophetic vision" it seems to me they are referring to visions like the two references I previously posted, not necessarily visions of future events, but events beyond the visionary's current point in time and space.

The reference again:
(1000.4) 91:7.3 Religious ecstasy is permissible when resulting from sane antecedents, but such experiences are more often the outgrowth of purely emotional influences than a manifestation of deep spiritual character. Religious persons must not regard every vivid psychologic presentiment and every intense emotional experience as a divine revelation or a spiritual communication. Genuine spiritual ecstasy is usually associated with great outward calmness and almost perfect emotional control. But true prophetic vision is a superpsychologic presentiment. Such visitations are not pseudo hallucinations, neither are they trancelike ecstasies.

I think this reference comes close to what I'm trying to describe:
(2078.8 ) 195:7.5 The realities and values of spiritual progress are not a “psychologic projection” — a mere glorified daydream of the material mind. Such things are the spiritual forecasts of the indwelling Adjuster, the spirit of God living in the mind of man. And let not your dabblings with the faintly glimpsed findings of “relativity” disturb your concepts of the eternity and infinity of God. And in all your solicitation concerning the necessity for self-expression do not make the mistake of failing to provide for Adjuster-expression, the manifestation of your real and better self.

Makalu wrote:
i'm not reading "must not regard every" as "may regard some" in the quote there, even though there are experiences that conjoin the psychological with the spiritual like conversion, i cant think of any also conjoined with a vivid psychologic presentiment.
.

In regards to conversion, didn't Paul's include a vision of Jesus on the Damascus road which he interpreted as a presentiment, or vision, of his new apostolic work?

(2091.10) 196:2.1 The Apostle Paul later on transformed this new gospel into Christianity, a religion embodying his own theologic views and portraying his own personal experience with the Jesus of the Damascus road.


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