Urantia Book Forum

Urantia Book Discussion Board : Study Group
It is currently Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:37 am +0000

All times are UTC - 7 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 109 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next
Author Message
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:11 pm +0000
Posts: 932
Riktare wrote:
The reasons for the temporary regression towards nationalism may lie in the temporary lack of vision and foresight of each sovereignty's authority. And also in the inability to build adequate responses to, or even recognize, the very real problems they face. But which is more positive in the long term destiny of the planet? That a very fallible structure of super-nation sovereignties temporarily falls back to re-examine how a more permanent super-nation sovereignty is to be build and function? Or that the entire system of super sovereignties collapses and all values and visions are lost?


The Revelation informs us that there is a natural brake put upon civilization when progress outruns worship and wisdom.

(1302.3) 118:8.6 The slowness of evolution, of human cultural progress, testifies to the effectiveness of that brake — material inertia — which so efficiently operates to retard dangerous velocities of progress. Thus does time itself cushion and distribute the otherwise lethal results of premature escape from the next-encompassing barriers to human action. For when culture advances overfast, when material achievement outruns the evolution of worship-wisdom, then does civilization contain within itself the seeds of retrogression; and unless buttressed by the swift augmentation of experiential wisdom, such human societies will recede from high but premature levels of attainment, and the “dark ages” of the interregnum of wisdom will bear witness to the inexorable restoration of the imbalance between self-liberty and self-control.

Although the movement toward global government is inevitable, such a thing is not possible without the foundational support of a citizenry capable of recognizing and choosing higher ideas and ideals conducive to the emergence of such a thing. The modern problem is delineated rather well in the Revelation, and until it is solved, the retrogressive impulse will persist.

(1090.2) 99:4.6 During the psychologically unsettled times of the twentieth century, amid the economic upheavals, the moral crosscurrents, and the sociologic rip tides of the cyclonic transitions of a scientific era, thousands upon thousands of men and women have become humanly dislocated; they are anxious, restless, fearful, uncertain, and unsettled; as never before in the world's history they need the consolation and stabilization of sound religion. In the face of unprecedented scientific achievement and mechanical development there is spiritual stagnation and philosophic chaos.

(1086.4) 99:1.1 Mechanical inventions and the dissemination of knowledge are modifying civilization; certain economic adjustments and social changes are imperative if cultural disaster is to be avoided. This new and oncoming social order will not settle down complacently for a millennium. The human race must become reconciled to a procession of changes, adjustments, and readjustments. Mankind is on the march toward a new and unrevealed planetary destiny.

(1086.6) 99:1.3  Urantia society can never hope to settle down as in past ages. The social ship has steamed out of the sheltered bays of established tradition and has begun its cruise upon the high seas of evolutionary destiny; and the soul of man, as never before in the world’s history, needs carefully to scrutinize its charts of morality and painstakingly to observe the compass of religious guidance. The paramount mission of religion as a social influence is to stabilize the ideals of mankind during these dangerous times of transition from one phase of civilization to another, from one level of culture to another.

(765.2) 68.2.5  History is but the record of man’s agelong food struggle. Primitive man only thought when he was hungry; food saving was his first self-denial, self-discipline. With the growth of society, food hunger ceased to be the only incentive for mutual association. Numerous other sorts of hunger, the realization of various needs, all led to the closer association of mankind. But today society is top-heavy with the overgrowth of supposed human needs. Occidental civilization of the twentieth century groans wearily under the tremendous overload of luxury and the inordinate multiplication of human desires and longings. Modern society is enduring the strain of one of its most dangerous phases of far-flung interassociation and highly complicated interdependence.

(766.1) 68.2.11  Vanity contributed mightily to the birth of society; but at the time of these revelations the devious strivings of a vainglorious generation threaten to swamp and submerge the whole complicated structure of a highly specialized civilization. Pleasure-want has long since superseded hunger-want; the legitimate social aims of self-maintenance are rapidly translating themselves into base and threatening forms of self-gratification. Self-maintenance builds society; unbridled self-gratification unfailingly destroys civilization.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 4145
Glad we are all in agreement. Recent nationalism is not a reasonable response to the land to population ratio but is a regressionary trend of political and nationalistic resistance to globalization and the tectonic shifts of national sovereignty. Progress is not a straight line forward.

The facts are obvious...regardless of the political resistance of nationalism and bigotries, national borders are being overrun by social progress and new borderless cultural groups that are growing in number and in membership and in influence and effect creating a momentum that propels our world.

It is only someone's opinion, and not factual or objective or particularly informed, that declares our world has a spiritual, religious, social, or cultural crisis. Horse Feathers. This is a prejudiced and biased and subjective opinion...and nothing more and very unwelcome!!!!

And thanks to Kat/Bonita for redundantly reposting the same quotes as me...again. A clumsy form of discussion and study chosen by blocking others. Sigh....


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:07 am +0000
Posts: 964
fanofVan wrote:
So...is sovereignty spiritual...either personal or planetary? Or is it secular and administrative? Every level of creation includes administrative and organizational and physical/material aspects of reality that are not spiritual I think.

I think sovereignty is an administrative jurisdiction including personal sovereignty and planetary and universe and associative groups affiliated by creature type or function, etc.


I'd say that sovereignty can extend into the spiritual, in both the personal and planetary sense. Isn't it both secular and administrative and in addition ultimately extending into the Supreme Being's realm of activity?

Granted, we typically talk about sovereignty applying to the secular realm of creatures. But as those creature's activities and loyalties extend to commingle with creators, don't the creators become part and parcel of the sovereignty?

Don't the terms "power-personality mobilization", "power-personality manifestation" and "power-personality synthesis" describe what is occurring that has a bearing on sovereignty in personal, non-personal, physical, morontial and spiritual realms?

0:7:10 (11.4) All time-space finite reality, under the directive urge of the evolving Supreme Being, is engaged in an ever-ascending mobilization and perfecting unification ( power-personality synthesis) of all phases and values of finite reality, in association with varied phases of Paradise reality, to the end and for the purpose of subsequently embarking upon the attempt to reach absonite levels of supercreature attainment.

56:6:3 (641.4) The material-minded creatures of the evolutionary worlds of the seven superuniverses can comprehend Deity unity only as it is evolving in this power-personality synthesis of the Supreme Being. ... Deity, having been thus grasped as unified in power, can then be personalized in spirit to creature understanding and attainment.

106:5:2 (1167.3) While this presentation deals primarily with the personal phases of the unification of the cosmos, it is nonetheless true that the impersonal aspects of the universe of universes are likewise destined to undergo unification as is illustrated by the power-personality synthesis now going on in connection with the evolution of the Supreme Being. The spirit-personal qualities of the Supreme are inseparable from the power prerogatives of the Almighty, and both are complemented by the unknown potential of Supreme mind.

21:3:24 (239.6) These primary Paradise Sons are the real revealers of the Father’s loving nature and beneficent authority, the same Father who, in association with the Son and the Spirit, is the universal head of all power, personality, and government throughout all the universal realms.

Quote:
Who's in charge of activities and priorities of any associative group of beings? What's the level of authority and autonomy and freedom to group self determination? Isn't sovereignty measured by such issues. In the parable of tribute, Jesus said to render unto Ceasar that which is his and unto God what is God's....so sovereignties overlap and exist some within others and some exclusive of orhers.


Yes. Apparently sovereignty that is held by creatures is increasingly limited the less mature the creatures (as a group) are. Which would seem to be a very wise precaution on the part of the gods :smile:

Quote:
Isn't sovereignty about who has authority over whom and what and the source of that authority? Celestially, isn't jurisdictional authority designated by higher jurisdictional authority and all levels subject to the personal sovereignty of free will?


Yes. Applying Lansing's concept again, I guess in general, the less mature and less deserving creatures are not as likely to generate sufficient energy, power and vision to enable them to overpower a more advanced group.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:11 pm +0000
Posts: 932
Riktare wrote:
Don't the terms "power-personality mobilization", "power-personality manifestation" and "power-personality synthesis" describe what is occurring that has a bearing on sovereignty in personal, non-personal, physical, morontial and spiritual realms?


Absolutely. I don't think it's possible to separate personal sovereignty and group sovereignty (part and whole), without involving evolution of the sovereignty of the Supreme. Creatures born in the universe age after the Supreme becomes sovereign will not have this opportunity to participate in power-personality synthesis.

(1280.7) 117:2.7 As existent upon the consummation of the present universe age, the Supreme Being will function as an experiential sovereign in the grand universe. Outer-spacers — citizens of the next universe age — will have a postsuperuniverse growth potential, a capacity for evolutionary attainment presupposing the sovereignty of the Almighty Supreme, hence excluding creature participation in the power-personality synthesis of the present universe age.

Riktare wrote:
Applying Lansing's concept again, I guess in general, the less mature and less deserving creatures are not as likely to generate sufficient energy, power and vision to enable them to overpower a more advanced group.


In regards to your statement above, I'm curious to get your opinion concerning the right to segregate mentioned in this reference:

(804:16) 71:4.16 The appearance of genuine brotherhood signifies that a social order has arrived in which all men delight in bearing one another's burdens; they actually desire to practice the golden rule. But such an ideal society cannot be realized when either the weak or the wicked lie in wait to take unfair and unholy advantage of those who are chiefly actuated by devotion to the service of truth, beauty, and goodness. In such a situation only one course is practical: The "golden rulers" may establish a progressive society in which they live according to their ideals while maintaining an adequate defense against their benighted fellows who might seek either to exploit their pacific predilections or to destroy their advancing civilization.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:07 am +0000
Posts: 964
katroofjebus wrote:
In regards to your statement above, I'm curious to get your opinion concerning the right to segregate mentioned in this reference:

(804:16) 71:4.16 The appearance of genuine brotherhood signifies that a social order has arrived in which all men delight in bearing one another's burdens; they actually desire to practice the golden rule. But such an ideal society cannot be realized when either the weak or the wicked lie in wait to take unfair and unholy advantage of those who are chiefly actuated by devotion to the service of truth, beauty, and goodness. In such a situation only one course is practical: The "golden rulers" may establish a progressive society in which they live according to their ideals while maintaining an adequate defense against their benighted fellows who might seek either to exploit their pacific predilections or to destroy their advancing civilization.


I think there's no question that the "weak", the "wicked" and the "benighted" will affect the energy and power of a sovereignty in addition to posing the problems listed above. It would seem wise for countries to protect themselves against a negative influx of such individuals and groups if those countries wish to maintain or improve their power to grow and improve.

Could or would a country or sovereignty permit other groups from forming segregated islands where the participants are pledged to uphold a higher standard of thought, ideals, action and performance than the status quo? That is a very interesting question in my opinion. One of the fastest growing groups of people holding to a religion whose origin is North America do that to some extent. They have been persecuted in the past but as far as I know the government has not posed restrictions on them.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 4145
Mennonites? Or Mormons?

Isolationism is an interesting topic. But exclusion by color, culture, religion? Don't think the UB supports such bigotries. Excluding genetic defectives is not at all the same.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:11 pm +0000
Posts: 932
katroofjebus wrote:
Could or would a country or sovereignty permit other groups from forming segregated islands where the participants are pledged to uphold a higher standard of thought, ideals, action and performance than the status quo?


It seems doubtful in the United States which was formed by "golden rulers" leaving their sovereign nations to establish their own segregated society. There's no place to run now unless the polar regions become habitable. I think escape is part of the impetus to colonize Mars, foolish as that reason is. Although this is a hot-button political issue, I will dare to say that the impetus behind "sanctuary cities" is to segregate a portion of society for protection. I won't venture to pass judgment on that issue, but it falls within the confines of the reference.

This brings me to the question, who are the "golden rulers"? I don't think our society is fit to make such a determination, given the fact that there are six levels of the golden rule. Any group falling within one of those levels can consider themselves 'golden rulers" and set themselves aside for self-defense. Additionally, what is considered acceptable "adequate defense"?

Reference for the six levels of the golden rule can be found in Paper 147 Section 4, The Rule of Living.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:16 pm +0000
Posts: 1166
Location: Nanticoke NY
Right Riktare! That sounds like the acceptable approach in your second post prior! Wow, and to think that the Supreme Being is seeking to emerge through the hearts of strangers I happen to meet every day. Thanks everyone for creating this topic and find some meaningful elaboration about this.

_________________
to the Underlaying Unity of All Life so that the Voice of Intuition may guide Us closer to Our Common Keeper


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:07 am +0000
Posts: 964
fanofVan wrote:
Mennonites? Or Mormons?


Shakers, Quakers and the Amish could be added to the list. It is comforting that, so long as they are law abiding, pay their taxes and educate their children, religious groups tending towards isolation are tolerated by the American governments.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 4145
It is the motive for isolationism that will determine its success or failure I think. The motive for many isolationists is the halt of progress and change and the retention of the grip of power and privilege. Or the avoidance of loyalty or sacrifice for important ideals. Conflict avoidance is another.

The US was isolationist in the 30's until the very last moment hoping to avoid conflict. England tried appeasement with the Nazis in their own attempt to avoid conflict. Treaties and loyalties did not result in England or the USA entering the war. Only direct and deadly attack did that. Obviously, sovereignty in the earlier mortal epochs is not won nor maintained by simple isolationism. Even the celestial led corporeal staff and the Garden's populations had to defend themselves.

Again Bonita gives political opinions!!!

Personally I think sanctuary cities demonstrate true golden rulers acting with compassion and good sense to protect a deserving population from political terrorists and illegal authoritarianism!!! Now....does anyone really want to know my political opinions?

Nope. Neither do we want Bonita's constant posting of her political beliefs. Just Stop It!! :roll:


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:07 am +0000
Posts: 964
I think it might be very easy to miss-judge and miss-interpret exactly what is happening with folk groups who have some tendencies towards isolation. Aren't they in effect combating the inertia of unguided or misguided groups of people to gravitate towards the mediocre?

No human group is likely to succeed in isolating itself from the rest of humanity. But the partial separation of groups of humans might sometimes be absolutely necessary to the destiny of human kind. Witness Andon and Fonta and the Andonites, for example.

At this moment I'm watching the History Channel's video "Desperate Crossing: The Untold Story of the Mayflower". Admittedly there is an element of self interest as at least 2 or 3 ancestors were aboard that vessel. The "pilgrims" were a persecuted people, taken advantage of, but still managed to collectively invest in the trip to America. Half of them died within the first year. The Mayflower had an additional roster of passengers equally as large as the number of religious pilgrims.

Circumstances led all to reconsider the terms of contract that were dictated by the King of England and by the corporate investors in the enterprise once the ship encountered severe difficulties upon nearing land at the Massachusetts Cape. They all essentially wrote and signed a statement that ultimately established a new sovereignty in America, even though their intentions were merely to sketch a temporarily fulfilling contract amongst themselves.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:52 am +0000
Posts: 992
Speaking of ships, and religious groups that isolate themselves, are you familiar with the Freewinds?

Excerpt from a CNN article about it:

Quote:
The church describes the Freewinds as a kind of moving Mount of Olives, the site of Jesus' ascension into heaven. It's the place where Scientologists can reach the highest level of spiritual attainment, OT VIII, which stands for Operating Thetan Level 8. What, exactly, that entails is the subject of some mystery (and a little suspicion) outside of Scientology, but the church describes it as "the pinnacle of a deeply spiritual journey."

"Years of training and auditing have brought him to this ultimate point. It is the most significant spiritual accomplishment of his lifetime and brings with it the full realization of his immortality," the church says.

It's worth noting, though, that some former members have far less positive views of what goes on aboard the Freewinds.


Isolation is not always a good thing. In fact, I would venture to say more often than not, it becomes problematic over time.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:11 pm +0000
Posts: 932
Riktare wrote:
I think it might be very easy to miss-judge and miss-interpret exactly what is happening with folk groups who have some tendencies towards isolation. Aren't they in effect combating the inertia of unguided or misguided groups of people to gravitate towards the mediocre?


Do you mean those groups who isolate themselves are protecting themselves from the mediocre? I think the mediocre can isolate themselves as well, for example some of the "turn-on and drop-out" commune groups of the 70's.

Riktare wrote:
But the partial separation of groups of humans might sometimes be absolutely necessary to the destiny of human kind. Witness Andon and Fonta and the Andonites, for example.


Brilliant point. Simply brilliant.

Riktare wrote:
At this moment I'm watching the History Channel's video "Desperate Crossing: The Untold Story of the Mayflower". Admittedly there is an element of self interest as at least 2 or 3 ancestors were aboard that vessel.


I've seen that documentary a few times because Francis Cooke and Hester Mahieu were my 8th great grandparents. I'm so grateful they made the journey and survived. Such determination is inspiring.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 4145
katroofjebus wrote:
Riktare wrote:
I think it might be very easy to miss-judge and miss-interpret exactly what is happening with folk groups who have some tendencies towards isolation. Aren't they in effect combating the inertia of unguided or misguided groups of people to gravitate towards the mediocre?


Do you mean those groups who isolate themselves are protecting themselves from the mediocre? I think the mediocre can isolate themselves as well, for example some of the "turn-on and drop-out" commune groups of the 70's.

Riktare wrote:
But the partial separation of groups of humans might sometimes be absolutely necessary to the destiny of human kind. Witness Andon and Fonta and the Andonites, for example.


Brilliant point. Simply brilliant.

Riktare wrote:
At this moment I'm watching the History Channel's video "Desperate Crossing: The Untold Story of the Mayflower". Admittedly there is an element of self interest as at least 2 or 3 ancestors were aboard that vessel.


I've seen that documentary a few times because Francis Cooke and Hester Mahieu were my 8th great grandparents. I'm so grateful they made the journey and survived. Such determination is inspiring.


Your prideful and false condemnations of those free spirits who engaged in countless and individualized communities of social experience and experiment is most unfortunate and ignorant...talk about mediocre! During a time of social and political and military insanity delivered by paranoid conservatives (your brand of unwelcome political rhetoric and opinion), many people did indeed seek alternative communities in rejection of entrenched fear and hate and social chaos.

How reasonable. So many powerful and lasting cultural seeds planted that positively infected the world...environmentalism, organic and sustainable farming, micro/local farming, vertically integrated farming, vegetarianism, aquaculture, gridless and carbon free energy production, recycling, reduced personal footprints on the biosphere, natural birth and breast feeding, feminism, civil and human rights, educational systems, etc. Those of us who embraced the lifestyles of The Whole Earth Catalogue and Mother Earth News do not deserve such judgmental and self righteous slander.

More politics!!! Will it never end? I object, again, to Bonita/kat's endless political rhetoric. Inaccurate and unwelcome. Shall I begin to allocute Ginsberg and Hoffman and Dylan? Shouldn't we be celebrating Woodstock this 50th anniversary?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Online
Moderator

Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 9:13 am +0000
Posts: 1079
Location: Denver CO
Has this topic reached its conclusion?

If not, please get back to it. This side trip is not very UB-related.

Thanks...MaryJo


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 109 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Registered users: Google [Bot], maryjo606


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You can post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group