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katroofjebus wrote:
No doubt though, it seems that the formation of social groups is rooted in the need for self-protection and self-perpetuation with the group suppling the collective power to fulfill that need. Is this the same power that Lansing calls sovereignty?


I agree that self-protection and self-perpetuation are important impulses and needs that help supply the collective power or energy that Lansing calls sovereignty. Also, as has been noted here, the creation of an environment that allows the fulfillment of vanity and ego associated needs contributes to that energy or force.

That may be a rather important insight Lansing has given us. That energy is collected and becomes its own force or motivation. It may build something more than just physical power (which he does speak at length about). For one thing identity is generated. In much larger groups that identity forms the basis of nationalism, doesn't it?


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fanofVan wrote:
Okay...so the topic is being changed. So be it. From planetary sovereignty to political sovereignty. Sovereignty does not evolve on rhe material worlds.


I wouldn't say the topic is being changed. It's rather focused on trying to understand the root and meaning of sovereignty itself, regardless of which context it is being considered in. I don't see, yet, how personal sovereignty fits in with planetary sovereignty in a spiritual sense. Maybe a first step is to investigate how personal sovereignty fits into political or national sovereignty.


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Riktare wrote:
]I agree that self-protection and self-perpetuation are important impulses and needs that help supply the collective power or energy that Lansing calls sovereignty. Also, as has been noted here, the creation of an environment that allows the fulfillment of vanity and ego associated needs contributes to that energy or force.

That may be a rather important insight Lansing has given us. That energy is collected and becomes its own force or motivation. It may build something more than just physical power (which he does speak at length about). For one thing identity is generated. In much larger groups that identity forms the basis of nationalism, doesn't it?


I've always thought that the identity of any given society is their culture and ethos. Nationalism, or tribalism seems to me to be a a collective power for self-protection and perpetuation of the culture the people identify with. The Revelation mentions social sovereignty and civil sovereignty. I'm not sure, but I think social sovereignty has to do with culture, civil sovereignty has to do with government, and possibly together they make up national sovereignty?

Our society today is culturally weak. It's identity is fractured such that social sovereignty has become a battleground. Civil sovereignty is maintained by government, but even there, the cultural divide has weakened it. The current movement toward nationalism I think is reactionary, perhaps an attempt to maintain what is left of cultural identity.


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Riktare wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
Okay...so the topic is being changed. So be it. From planetary sovereignty to political sovereignty. Sovereignty does not evolve on rhe material worlds.


I wouldn't say the topic is being changed. It's rather focused on trying to understand the root and meaning of sovereignty itself, regardless of which context it is being considered in. I don't see, yet, how personal sovereignty fits in with planetary sovereignty in a spiritual sense. Maybe a first step is to investigate how personal sovereignty fits into political or national sovereignty.


I don't think it does...or not at first and for a long time. I think it takes mortal epochs timeline evolution for the respect of personal liberty and personal sovereignty to guide mortal politics to any significant degree. Civil rights and human rights are but a beginning of this recognition of personal sovereignty and so it has begun on Urantia.

I think the models of Dalamatia and the Garden by their own internal example and their interaction with surrounding peoples as that radiates outward leads most worlds into a much faster evolutionary process regarding respect for individual freewill and personal liberty as we mortals begin to grapple with the distinctions between true and false liberty. Where and when one or some enjoy more liberty than others then false liberty exists.

Human political sovereignty certainly has and still does include many forms of governance and entities that do recognize or support the individual's personal freewill sovereignty. But I do agree that as the world progresses through the Epochs of Time and Progress that the celestial/heavenly ideals of sovereignty will emerge. Remember that we are taught however that political sovereignty must give itself over from nationalism to a single state and a single language and a single amalgamated race where order is maintained by the voluntary cooperation of planetary citizens. Social sovereignty has been established by might and held by might and still is. Much evolution is required for social/political sovereignty to be based solely upon the functional partnership and cooperative support of its individual citizens - where equal protection/standing under the law and equal opportunity for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is not enforced by law, rule, coercion, or force but simply becomes the shared priority of all people - whether richer or poorer, more educated or less, more talented/skilled or less, etc.

The promise of the Revelation is we're on that planetary destiny path and there is much historical evidence of that fact. How sovereignty has changed over time is certainly one portrayal of that evolution.

I really like the concept of sovereigns as trustees with obligations. I think this fits the celestial example quite well. Sovereigns are appointed servants in heaven, each appointed/selected by a higher sovereign whose power likewise is sustained by the cooperative efforts of all the freewill individual sovereigns of self...or so I understand it.

8)


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fanofVan wrote:
I don't think it does...or not at first and for a long time. I think it takes mortal epochs timeline evolution for the respect of personal liberty and personal sovereignty to guide mortal politics to any significant degree. Civil rights and human rights are but a beginning of this recognition of personal sovereignty and so it has begun on Urantia.


Do you mean that you don't think that personal sovereignty fits into political or national sovereignty? That could be the case for a good portion of the activity involved in creating or maintaining a human sovereignty, especially in the early epochs. But if we apply Lansings considerations to personal sovereignty we might see some interesting things.

Suppose that some portion of a person's energies are devoted to maintaining or growing the whole system integrity or integration of its parts. There would seem to be a need to establish some kind of central command or authority. That authority must effectively build a vision or identity to focus the whole system's energies on and protect. The concept of sovereignty then begins to sound like a bit like the stages of personal development the revelators tell us about.

fanofVan wrote:
I think the models of Dalamatia and the Garden by their own internal example and their interaction with surrounding peoples as that radiates outward leads most worlds into a much faster evolutionary process regarding respect for individual freewill and personal liberty as we mortals begin to grapple with the distinctions between true and false liberty. Where and when one or some enjoy more liberty than others then false liberty exists.

Human political sovereignty certainly has and still does include many forms of governance and entities that do recognize or support the individual's personal freewill sovereignty. But I do agree that as the world progresses through the Epochs of Time and Progress that the celestial/heavenly ideals of sovereignty will emerge. Remember that we are taught however that political sovereignty must give itself over from nationalism to a single state and a single language and a single amalgamated race where order is maintained by the voluntary cooperation of planetary citizens. Social sovereignty has been established by might and held by might and still is. Much evolution is required for social/political sovereignty to be based solely upon the functional partnership and cooperative support of its individual citizens - where equal protection/standing under the law and equal opportunity for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is not enforced by law, rule, coercion, or force but simply becomes the shared priority of all people - whether richer or poorer, more educated or less, more talented/skilled or less, etc.

The promise of the Revelation is we're on that planetary destiny path and there is much historical evidence of that fact. How sovereignty has changed over time is certainly one portrayal of that evolution.

I really like the concept of sovereigns as trustees with obligations. I think this fits the celestial example quite well. Sovereigns are appointed servants in heaven, each appointed/selected by a higher sovereign whose power likewise is sustained by the cooperative efforts of all the freewill individual sovereigns of self...or so I understand it.


Yes. It kind of feels as though personal growth and the approach to more and more interaction and cooperation with the divine is a micro-pattern of a larger movement throughout the cosmos. And sovereignty encompasses aspects of that.


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katroofjebus wrote:
Our society today is culturally weak. It's identity is fractured such that social sovereignty has become a battleground. Civil sovereignty is maintained by government, but even there, the cultural divide has weakened it. The current movement toward nationalism I think is reactionary, perhaps an attempt to maintain what is left of cultural identity.


That sounds like a valid insight. If the movement toward nationalism is not successful in the longer run then probably some new authority will need to arise which has a vision that is satisfying enough to stir peoples aspirations to positive and constructive determination I imagine.


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Riktare wrote:
If the movement toward nationalism is not successful in the longer run then probably some new authority will need to arise which has a vision that is satisfying enough to stir peoples aspirations to positive and constructive determination I imagine.


What do you mean by new authority? Are you talking about an institution or a person?


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katroofjebus wrote:
What do you mean by new authority? Are you talking about an institution or a person?


I think it could be either. In either case the new authority would have to be extraordinary to generate a sufficient energy momentum and become a part of a significant number of people's lives. But then we are told

195:9:2 (2082.7) Urantia is now quivering on the very brink of one of its most amazing and enthralling epochs of social readjustment, moral quickening, and spiritual enlightenment.


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Riktare wrote:
I think it could be either. In either case the new authority would have to be extraordinary to generate a sufficient energy momentum and become a part of a significant number of people's lives. But then we are told

195:9:2 (2082.7) Urantia is now quivering on the very brink of one of its most amazing and enthralling epochs of social readjustment, moral quickening, and spiritual enlightenment.


I have to think that true religion would play a large role in initiating such an epoch, but the type of authority that comes from that would not be a specific institution or human being.


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Riktare wrote:
katroofjebus wrote:
Our society today is culturally weak. It's identity is fractured such that social sovereignty has become a battleground. Civil sovereignty is maintained by government, but even there, the cultural divide has weakened it. The current movement toward nationalism I think is reactionary, perhaps an attempt to maintain what is left of cultural identity.


That sounds like a valid insight. If the movement toward nationalism is not successful in the longer run then probably some new authority will need to arise which has a vision that is satisfying enough to stir peoples aspirations to positive and constructive determination I imagine.


Insight? Or just another political opinion?

What society is she talking about? A national society? Western society? Just the USA society? All of society? And which one is that? Again with local and recent and personal biases posted as facts. What is social sovereignty? The term is used but once in the text. Are cultures and societies limited to nationalistic and political borders? Must I identify only with my country of origin society?

Aren't there billions of us on Urantia with a global sense of culture and society? Even some with a universal sense of belonging? Who here claims to know the thinking and the sense of belonging of 7 billion souls today??? What cultural commonalities break down isolationistic barriers? Religion, music, travel, education, common problems like food and climate and disasters, mobile communications and global networks, international institutional formations, etc

Are we really moving "toward nationalism" or witnessing its death throes in opposition to an obvious growing globalism in our national culture, especially among the educated and the youth that coincides with the same evolutionary development around the planet today?? Reversionary and devolutionary movements do not signify a growing movement or new movement so much as they give testimony to its public demise and reluctant end. Is the KKK and nazism really surging and growing or expressing their own death chant?

By cultural divide does she mean between the youth and the status quo?? A divide that always exists!! Or the divide between who is getting inked/tattooed and those who would never? Or the jazz and blues divide. Sounds like my grandparents lament (and theirs commenting on them in the 20's) about youth, change (like hair, music, and priorities - the geezer's eternal or at least perennial lament), and the uncertainty of all these accelerating changes of politics, culture, society, economics, etc. now and back every generation.

More unwelcome and irrelevant political commentary by the discontented and opinionated IMO. Many appear to be blind to the globalization that is marginalizing nationalism and making it a bit defensive and reactionary which does not mean that nationalism is rising. Many of every generation complain about the youth, culture, social values, and changes as unwelcome and damning proving only that some things never change...hahaha. Now I am of such an age...if not such a perspective and opinion.

Do we need such opinions here? Such declarations of opinions posing as facts? That are not that at all. Political opinions are unwelcome here and violate guidelines and mostly demonstrate prejudice, ignorance, and blindness to any objective standard or reality.

To claim that cultures are the source of nationalism appears to misunderstand the sources of the nationalistic resistance to globalization of culture and society and the integration of it's mutual benefit around the world - there are vested political and economic beneficiaries of fear, hate, blame, nationalism, and division, especially those who seek victory and power by fear and hate and those who profit from war and know that nationalistic self interest is the source of profits.

Likewise are there so many social, cultural, religious, and political agencies breaking down nationalism and propelling us into the globalization of our future, per the UB teachings of our planetary evolutionary progress through the mortal epochs. To make declarations here contrary to the UB and contradictory to the evidence all around us shows the folly of such claims by some here.

An unlearned and ill considered opinion declared and proclaimed as fact is merely an opinion still. There are 7 billion souls on Urantia and countless cultures and multiple civilizations that are not the USA. Perhaps we might consider the entire planet when considering the Mortal Epochs of Progress and sovereignty, whether personal, political, social, cultural, or planetary. Who here is denying the obvious demise of nationalism and the evolutionary momentum of globalism??

195:9.3 (2082.8) The teachings of Jesus, even though greatly modified, survived the mystery cults of their birthtime, the ignorance and superstition of the dark ages, and are even now slowly triumphing over the materialism, mechanism, and secularism of the twentieth century. And such times of great testing and threatened defeat are always times of great revelation.

195:6.1 (2076.6) Scientists have unintentionally precipitated mankind into a materialistic panic; they have started an unthinking run on the moral bank of the ages, but this bank of human experience has vast spiritual resources; it can stand the demands being made upon it. Only unthinking men become panicky about the spiritual assets of the human race. When the materialistic-secular panic is over, the religion of Jesus will not be found bankrupt. The spiritual bank of the kingdom of heaven will be paying out faith, hope, and moral security to all who draw upon it “in His name.” *

195:6.2 (2076.7) No matter what the apparent conflict between materialismand the teachings of Jesus may be, you can rest assured that, in the ages to come, the teachings of the Master will fully triumph. ...

195:6.4 (2076.9) At the time of this writing the worst of the materialistic age is over; the day of a better understanding is already beginning to dawn. The higher minds of the scientific world are no longer wholly materialistic in their philosophy, but the rank and file of the people still lean in that direction as a result of former teachings. But this ageof physical realism is only a passing episode in man’s life on earth. Modern science has left true religion—the teachings of Jesus as translated in the lives of his believers—untouched. All science has done is to destroy the childlike illusions of the misinterpretations of life.


Last edited by fanofVan on Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:09 am +0000, edited 5 times in total.

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Riktare wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
Okay...so the topic is being changed. So be it. From planetary sovereignty to political sovereignty. Sovereignty does not evolve on rhe material worlds.


I wouldn't say the topic is being changed. It's rather focused on trying to understand the root and meaning of sovereignty itself, regardless of which context it is being considered in. I don't see, yet, how personal sovereignty fits in with planetary sovereignty in a spiritual sense. Maybe a first step is to investigate how personal sovereignty fits into political or national sovereignty.


So...is sovereignty spiritual...either personal or planetary? Or is it secular and administrative? Every level of creation includes administrative and organizational and physical/material aspects of reality that are not spiritual I think.

I think sovereignty is an administrative jurisdiction including personal sovereignty and planetary and universe and associative groups affiliated by creature type or function, etc.

Who's in charge of activities and priorities of any associative group of beings? What's the level of authority and autonomy and freedom to group self determination? Isn't sovereignty measured by such issues. In the parable of tribute, Jesus said to render unto Ceasar that which is his and unto God what is God's....so sovereignties overlap and exist some within others and some exclusive of orhers.

Isn't sovereignty about who has authority over whom and what and the source of that authority? Celestially, isn't jurisdictional authority designated by higher jurisdictional authority and all levels subject to the personal sovereignty of free will?

I hope we can get back to the topic without the political rhetoric and opinions. Thanks.


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katroofjebus wrote:
Riktare wrote:
Yes, that's true and I have no problems in the least in defending myself. But this problem is rampant and out of control. It's not just us who are affected.


Oh I know. Almost everyone has complained about it. The more complaints there are, the worse it gets. That's why I think blocking works best. You can't complain about something that doesn't exist. Brooklynborn opened my eyes to that. I have to thank him/her.

Despite it all, I'm enjoying the conversation. Don't let the noise distract you.


Kat...this post is so curious to me. You know perfectly well who BrooklynBorn is...you two have been squabbling and fighting like cats and dogs for years now on another public UB forum. He uses the same monicker at both sites. As I recall he blocked you there and complained loudly and frequently about your personal attacks, which IMO were merely disagreements about his contradictions to the text (he made the same complaints about me both there and here).

Hahaha. Ironic don't you think? You praise and thank someone here for opening your eyes to something who has already done the same to you, while pretending you do not know them. Why is it you act as if new and unknown and unfamiliar with posters here you have forumed with for years and years? Especially BB. Weird.

Larry W. commented unflatteringly on the motive and intention of those who changed their name here over time. There have been several who did so but usually it was due to Larry's banishment and termination of posting priveleges. Not so with you. Your departure was voluntary I believe. So why change your name and pretend to be new here now?

:?: What's up with that?


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While we are on the subject of “katroofjebus” name, can I just say that I really dislike that moniker and I wonder why she chose it. To me, it trivializes Jesus and is offensive. Every time I see it on the forum, my blood pressure spikes a little.


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I certainly will defer in this conversation to anyone whom as a human individual is truly sovereign. But I wonder about certain metaphors, of fathers, the times people have stepped in to vouch for me, wow. A captain, who has vowed certainly to remain with his old sinking ship. A spacecraft carrying Urantia's ambassadors. It points to this idea that Jesus once expressed "let ye now you who is without sin, to cast the first stone upon this woman." Please, tell us the duty of possessing true human sovereignty. I will trust your opinion about planetary sovereignty. Individual human sovereignty, and the ability to be a self-determinative being, yes that is certainly a personal matter. But urantia's potential sovereignty would be relegated only to certain individuals such as Jesus of Nazareth or Machiventa Melchizedek, in terms of holding the power to actually represent such sovereignty (of Urantia), on a personal level, for such level is like the sovereignty of the local universe, or even the grand universe.

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Riktare wrote:
That sounds like a valid insight. If the movement toward nationalism is not successful in the longer run then probably some new authority will need to arise which has a vision that is satisfying enough to stir peoples aspirations to positive and constructive determination I imagine.


Insight? Or just another political opinion?

What society is she talking about? A national society? Western society? Just the USA society? All of society? And which one is that? Again with local and recent and personal biases posted as facts. What is social sovereignty? The term is used but once in the text. Are cultures and societies limited to nationalistic and political borders? Must I identify only with my country of origin society?

Aren't there billions of us on Urantia with a global sense of culture and society? Even some with a universal sense of belonging? Who here claims to know the thinking and the sense of belonging of 7 billion souls today??? What cultural commonalities break down isolationistic barriers? Religion, music, travel, education, common problems like food and climate and disasters, mobile communications and global networks, international institutional formations, etc

Are we really moving "toward nationalism" or witnessing its death throes in opposition to an obvious growing globalism in our national culture, especially among the educated and the youth that coincides with the same evolutionary development around the planet today?? Reversionary and devolutionary movements do not signify a growing movement or new movement so much as they give testimony to its public demise and reluctant end. Is the KKK and nazism really surging and growing or expressing their own death chant?

By cultural divide does she mean between the youth and the status quo?? A divide that always exists!! Or the divide between who is getting inked/tattooed and those who would never? Or the jazz and blues divide. Sounds like my grandparents lament (and theirs commenting on them in the 20's) about youth, change (like hair, music, and priorities - the geezer's eternal or at least perennial lament), and the uncertainty of all these accelerating changes of politics, culture, society, economics, etc. now and back every generation.


We do of course need to be wary of not speaking about politics here other than in very general ways, as the revelators do, or in terms of theory if such theory isn't specific enough to incite emotional responses. At least that is my understanding of the forum rules.

I didn't interpret katroofjebus' post to be saying anything so much involving political content. Katroofjebus may correct me, but the observation is that there is most definitely a temporary retrogression across the world towards nationalism. The arguably most powerful human sovereignty in the world is not strictly uni-national. It encompasses an entire continent and has rather strong ties culturally, economically, militarily and shares very much philosophic and religious sentiments with the arguably second strongest sovereignty which is a voluntary federation of nation-states that encompasses a subcontinent. And yet that voluntary federation of nation-states is breaking apart in some ways and internal stress in recent years has threatened its very existence. The one time third strongest human sovereignty has already dissolved. Circumstances are bleak for the single nation being able to resurrect that defunct multi-national sovereignty, especially since the vision its authority provides does not in general appear to stir people's energies and aspirations towards wanting to support it. There has been a mass exodus of nations towards being members of the second sovereignty I mentioned.

The reasons for the temporary regression towards nationalism may lie in the temporary lack of vision and foresight of each sovereignty's authority. And also in the inability to build adequate responses to, or even recognize, the very real problems they face. But which is more positive in the long term destiny of the planet? That a very fallible structure of super-nation sovereignties temporarily falls back to re-examine how a more permanent super-nation sovereignty is to be build and function? Or that the entire system of super sovereignties collapses and all values and visions are lost?


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