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fanofVan wrote:
I am certainly not "attached to fear"!!!!!! What a claim. Or squirm by the one who admits his personal fear of the Unqualified Absolute. :roll:

"Quite frankly The Unqualified Absolute scares me." said Riktare.

And please don't be accusing me of making things up! These are your words you posted.

And these are your propositions and theories needing documentation and reason which they, so far, sorely lack.

And yes, you are contradicting the definition of sovereign and sovereignty.

Sometimes we are just wrong about something. Admit it, learn from it, and move on....or risk exhibiting blind prejudice.


This is quite ridiculous and inappropriate for this forum! I ask the author to sincerely consider what the motivation behind this is. I ask the moderator to consider when "enough is enough".

Must every poster have to defend every minute detail of every word and phrase?

This appears to be an attack on my character. To defend the integrity of my character and mode of expression I will point out that being scared is not necessarily a result of fear. In this case experiencing being scared by something had more to do with awe and astonishment at a level of intensity that one more commonly associates with fear. This memory was also from a time years prior to encountering the revelation. Why should anyone participating in this forum be subjected to some kind of tribunal or witch trial?


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Riktare wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
I am certainly not "attached to fear"!!!!!! What a claim. Or squirm by the one who admits his personal fear of the Unqualified Absolute. :roll:

"Quite frankly The Unqualified Absolute scares me." said Riktare.

And please don't be accusing me of making things up! These are your words you posted.

And these are your propositions and theories needing documentation and reason which they, so far, sorely lack.

And yes, you are contradicting the definition of sovereign and sovereignty.

Sometimes we are just wrong about something. Admit it, learn from it, and move on....or risk exhibiting blind prejudice.


This is quite ridiculous and inappropriate for this forum! I ask the author to sincerely consider what the motivation behind this is. I ask the moderator to consider when "enough is enough".

Must every poster have to defend every minute detail of every word and phrase?

This appears to be an attack on my character. To defend the integrity of my character and mode of expression I will point out that being scared is not necessarily a result of fear. In this case experiencing being scared by something had more to do with awe and astonishment at a level of intensity that one more commonly associates with fear. This memory was also from a time years prior to encountering the revelation. Why should anyone participating in this forum be subjected to some kind of tribunal or witch trial?


Really??!! I am always most interested whenever anyone claims a fear of Deity or reality...as you did. Then you denied it and claimed fear to be my invention instead of simply explain it as you finally have.

How is seeking clarification and understanding any form of attack??!! But to deny saying what we just said is something to reconsider which might reflect something about one's character I suppose.

I am most curious about your lack of response to kat's most interesting questions and refutation of your unsubstantiated and illogical claims about sovereignty and the Unqualified Absolute.

My posts here have been about the topic posted and issues discussed and not about you at all. I think you simply cannot offer support of your claims and now attack me instead. What's that called?


Last edited by fanofVan on Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:05 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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Riktare wrote:
This is quite ridiculous and inappropriate for this forum! I ask the author to sincerely consider what the motivation behind this is. I ask the moderator to consider when "enough is enough".


It won't do any good. When I pleaded and pleaded for the harassment to stop absolutely nothing was said or done on my behalf. In fact, the more I pleaded the worse the attacks got.

Riktare wrote:
This appears to be an attack on my character. Why should anyone participating in this forum be subjected to some kind of tribunal or witch trial?


There's no need to defend yourself. There are no gatekeepers of the Revelation other than the Spirit of Truth. The best thing is to just block the perpetrator. You can do that on your user control panel. It has worked exceedingly well for me. Just a suggestion.


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What harassment? This is harrassment.

But no bother. Time and the student body will decipher the contributions and contradictions presented here. Kat's particular animosity is most personal and alarming and has been displayed persistently since returning from her 9 year absence.

Too bad. She sure has Riktare's tail tied in a knot here!!


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katroofjebus wrote:
There's no need to defend yourself. There are no gatekeepers of the Revelation other than the Spirit of Truth. The best thing is to just block the perpetrator. You can do that on your user control panel. It has worked exceedingly well for me. Just a suggestion.


Yes, that's true and I have no problems in the least in defending myself. But this problem is rampant and out of control. It's not just us who are affected.


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Riktare wrote:
Yes, that's true and I have no problems in the least in defending myself. But this problem is rampant and out of control. It's not just us who are affected.


Oh I know. Almost everyone has complained about it. The more complaints there are, the worse it gets. That's why I think blocking works best. You can't complain about something that doesn't exist. Brooklynborn opened my eyes to that. I have to thank him/her.

Despite it all, I'm enjoying the conversation. Don't let the noise distract you.


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Speaking of distraction....... :roll:

Neither of you can post a single inappropriate sentence of mine in this topic...but now the topic seems to be to attack me for some reason.

So far, Riktare has made numerous claims that Bonita and I both have questioned and posted related text. And Riktare has gotten surley and defensive, especially regarding his stated fears of Deity he refused to even acknowledge.

We are down the rabbit hole again.

Poor Maryjo.... moderating Wonderland. :wink: 8)


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Back to the topic?

Kat...I thanked you back a few pages/posts for such articulation of the text regarding the Unqualified Absolute. Let me again commend you and thank you for these additional clarifications since.

They clearly refute Riktare's claims and his fears related to the fiction of mindless will that is claimed to affect planetary and personal sovereignty and destiny and material mind.

Riktare wrote:

In investigating more about the relationships between activities sponsored by the Unqualified Absolute and the Grand Universe Power Directors we can begin to see that the Unqualified Absolute has an effect on the destiny or condition of the planets that the power directors cannot counter-effect

Kat replies:

I still don't understand what this has to do with sovereignty. I don't think the physical planet itself can have sovereignty. It's not a person. Sovereignty is a power of personality, singular or collective. The Unqualified Absolute is not personal, which is why it's unqualified.





Riktare wrote:

Just as the Unqualified Absolute affects sub-atomic realms, I suspect it affects our subconscious activity in some ways.

Kat replies:

But matter and mind are two different levels of reality. If subatomic reality is somehow changed in your brain, and by doing so changes your capacity for mind ministry (thought), wouldn't such a change also affect your conscious mind? Why the emphasis on the subconscious mind in which the content is entirely materially oriented? Also, would that same subatomic alteration simultaneously affect the morontia material that makes up the soul, which is the only route to the superconscious?


    
katroofjebus wrote:
Riktare wrote:
Yes, I think the sovereignty attaches to the totality of all personalities of earthly origin or those with a vested interest in its destiny and to the incubating grounds those personalities have arisen from. But we know that the Unqualified Absolute has some types of overcontrol of the physical and possibly non-physical factors of the planet's environment. Implicit in that is that it may affect the development and activities of the planet's inhabitants. It is an actor with an affect on the destinies of the planet's inhabitants.


I think it's the other way around. The Unqualified Absolute is conditioned by all of those things: life, mind, spirit, personality and volitional mandates of the Trinity. So the people of this planet are qualified, they have an affect upon the Unqualified Absolute which is perfectly balanced by the presence of the Universal Absolute.


katroofjebus wrote:
Riktare wrote:
Environmental factors do affect how the brain works, our moods, how clearly and efficiently we think, don't they? And it's clear that even the "conscious mind" may undergo radical changes that determine our perceptions. That is another reason for at least surveying experiences people have had in altered states of consciousness.


I think it matters how and why consciousness is altered. What is the source and method? Any attempts to deliberately alter one's own consciousness is suspect to me.

Riktare wrote:
I wouldn't say that the subconscious mind is entirely materially oriented. My impression is that symbolism, albeit apparently incoherent symbolism, is the chief mode of subconscious mind activity.


The Revelation explains the make up of the subconscious in this reference:

(1207:3) 110:4.3 Certain abrupt presentations of thoughts, conclusions, and other pictures of mind are sometimes the direct or indirect work of the Adjuster; but far more often they are the sudden emergence into consciousness of ideas which have been grouping themselves together in the submerged mental levels, natural and everyday occurrences of normal and ordinary psychic function inherent in the circuits of the evolving animal mind. (In contrast with these subconscious emanations, the revelations of the Adjuster appear through the realms of the superconscious.)

As I read it, the subconscious is the submerged mind which contains normal psychic reactions to the ministry the lower adjutants. This level of mind is not conducive to contact with the superconscious, which by definition is only attainable through consciousness of the soul-mind arena where it exists at its borderland. The higher adjutants are necessary to make this journey of consciousness, but I would not call it an altered state. It's natural.

(2097:2) 196:3.3 The great challenge to modern man is to achieve better communication with the divine Monitor that dwells within the human mind. Man's greatest adventure in the flesh consists in the well-balanced and sane effort to advance the borders of self-consciousness out through the dim realms of embryonic soul-consciousness in a wholehearted effort to reach the borderland of spirit-consciousness—contact with the divine presence. Such an experience constitutes God-consciousness, an experience mightily confirmative of the pre-existent truth of the religious experience of knowing God. Such spirit-consciousness is the equivalent of the knowledge of the actuality of sonship with God. Otherwise, the assurance of sonship is the experience of faith.

Riktare wrote:
I focus partly on understanding how the subconscious mind is driven or conditioned here because I have a hunch that the Unqualified Absolute is an agent involved in its direction. I don't believe the revelators tell us anything about that, do they?


No, they don't tell us anything about the Unqualified Absolute and the subconscious because I suspect it has nothing to do with it. However, they do explain that unpredictability in matters of mind might be caused by the presence of the Universal Absolute.

(104.6) 9:6.8 The mind-gravity circuit is dependable; it emanates from the Third Person of Deity on Paradise, but not all the observable function of mind is predictable. Throughout all known creation there parallels this circuit of mind some little-understood presence whose function is not predictable. We believe that this unpredictability is partly attributable to the function of the Universal Absolute. What this function is, we do not know; what actuates it, we can only conjecture; concerning its relation to creatures, we can only speculate.
(104.7) 9:6.9 Certain phases of the unpredictability of finite mind may be due to the incompleteness of the Supreme Being, and there is a vast zone of activities wherein the Conjoint Actor and the Universal Absolute may possibly be tangent. There is much about mind that is unknown, but of this we are sure: The Infinite Spirit is the perfect expression of the mind of the Creator to all creatures; the Supreme Being is the evolving expression of the minds of all creatures to their Creator.

Riktare wrote:
It may be that morontia, or possibly the higher phases of morontia where our soul is concerned, is not so much affected by the environmental factors that affect how the brain works (which may or may not include effects induced by agencies such as the Unqualified Absolute). I think even in the New Testament is it mentioned that Heaven is built of a more permanent material.


Yet it is written that both physical and mental poisons can greatly hinder spiritual progress, which includes soul growth. Souls can die.

(1204.3) 110:1.5 The Adjuster remains with you in all disaster and through every sickness which does not wholly destroy the mentality. But how unkind knowingly to defile or otherwise deliberately to pollute the physical body, which must serve as the earthly tabernacle of this marvelous gift from God. All physical poisons greatly retard the efforts of the Adjuster to exalt the material mind, while the mental poisons of fear, anger, envy, jealousy, suspicion, and intolerance likewise tremendously interfere with the spiritual progress of the evolving soul.


katroofjebus wrote:
Riktare wrote:
But that doesn't preclude the Unqualified Absolute from conditioning environmental factors that affect life and mind - certainly power and energy as we are told.


I just finished rereading every entry concerning the Unqualified Absolute and I can't find any evidence at all that it conditions anything. It appears to be static, potential, and reactionary, requiring action or condition from the Deity Absolute. The Unqualified Absolute is a repository for potential matter/force and remains potential unless deemed otherwise by Deity volition, which then makes it qualified. It's the Deity Absolute who is the over controller of matter.

(637.4) 56:1.2 The Unqualified Absolute upholds the physical universe, while the Deity Absolute motivates the exquisite overcontrol of all material reality; and both Absolutes are functionally unified by the Universal Absolute. This cohesive correlation of the material universe is best understood by all personalities — material, morontia, absonite, or spiritual — by the observation of the gravity response of all bona fide material reality to the gravity centering on nether Paradise.

(14.7) 0:11.9 We are convinced that the Unqualified Absolute is not an undifferentiated and all-pervading influence comparable either to the pantheistic concepts of metaphysics or to the sometime ether hypothesis of science. The Unqualified Absolute is force unlimited and Deity conditioned, but we do not fully perceive the relation of this Absolute to the spirit realities of the universe.

(45.5) 3:1.7 The Universal Controller is potentially present in the gravity circuits of the Isle of Paradise in all parts of the universe at all times and in the same degree, in accordance with the mass, in response to the physical demands for this presence, and because of the inherent nature of all creation which causes all things to adhere and consist in him. Likewise is the First Source and Center potentially present in the Unqualified Absolute, the repository of the uncreated universes of the eternal future. God thus potentially pervades the physical universes of the past, present, and future. He is the primordial foundation of the coherence of the so-called material creation. This nonspiritual Deity potential becomes actual here and there throughout the level of physical existences by the inexplicable intrusion of some one of his exclusive agencies upon the stage of universe action.

The forces of the Unqualified Absolute are not responsive to gravity. Once those forces are free from the Unqualified Absolute and become responsive to linear gravity, they are under the control of the Isle of Paradise. If the subatomic particles of physical matter are responsive to linear gravity, then they cannot be conditioned by the Unqualified Absolute; such force appears to no longer be part of its purview.

(9.7) 0:6.5 1. Cosmic force embraces all energies deriving from the Unqualified Absolute but which are as yet unresponsive to Paradise gravity.

(190.6) 16:4.12 4. The behavior of emergent energy when fully liberated from the grasp of the Unqualified Absolute, thus becoming responsive to the direct influence of linear gravity and to the manipulations of the Universe Power Directors and their associates.

(329.5) 29:5.5 Primary Master Force Organizers are the manipulators of the primordial or basic space-forces of the Unqualified Absolute; they are nebulae creators. They are the living instigators of the energy cyclones of space and the early organizers and directionizers of these gigantic manifestations. These force organizers transmute primordial force (pre-energy not responsive to direct Paradise gravity) into primary or puissant energy, energy transmuting from the exclusive grasp of the Unqualified Absolute to the gravity grasp of the Isle of Paradise. They are thereupon succeeded by the associate force organizers, who continue the process of energy transmutation from the primary through the secondary or gravity-energy stage.


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All right then, how to bring more focus to this topic? I suppose we can examine one or more of the deepest and most insightful definitions of sovereignty which hopefully begin to explain why sovereignty has evolved and why it is needed.

One attempt to describe that is by Robert Lansing who seems to be the spokesman of a committee. I quote only an excerpt.

A Definition of Sovereignty Robert Lansing The American Political Science Review
Vol. 8, No. 1, Supplement: Proceedings of the American Political Science Association at Its Tenth Annual Meeting (Feb., 1914), pp. 61-75 (15 pages)
https://www.jstor.org/stable/4617008?se ... b_contents

Quote:
A primitive community originates in the gregarious impulse inherent in human nature rather than from any process of reasoning by the individuals, who compose it. It is the physical, not the intellectual, in savages, which causes them to associate. Animal passions, fear, and the chances of birth and situation are among the primary causes. Later, as a community increases in numbers and civilization, there is evidenced an energy, which with more or less tenacity keeps the members of the community united. This energy, which is in fact manifest from almost the moment of origin, is the controlling factor in a community giving to it continuance and a rudimentary political organization.

Like all that pertains to human society in a barbarous state this energy is physical; it is only in the higher stages of development that man permits his conduct to be affected by rational, moral and religious influences. This physical energy of the savage in necessarily strength of body. No other human force is known to physical man. As in the case of gregarious animals a savage man, because of superior muscular development and vigor, compels his fellows in a community to submit to his will either by the employment of force or from fear of physical punishment. He commands and is obeyed because he can compel obedience.

This fundamental energy, which is the binding force in the most primitive forms of society and continues its functions, though modified by intellectual influences, in the higher types of communities, seems to me to be entitled to the term "sovereignty." We think of sovereignty - and I mean by "we" mankind in general - as the supreme and vital element in a political state, without which it cannot exist in an organized form or possess those other attributes, which enter into the concept of a state.


Last edited by Riktare on Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:29 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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Riktare, quick question. Is your intent to discuss only political sovereignty?


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katroofjebus wrote:
Riktare, quick question. Is your intent to discuss only political sovereignty?


No, but that seems to be a place we can get a bearing on to start with.


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sovereignty
[ˈsäv(ə)rən(t)ē]

NOUN
supreme power or authority.

synonyms:
jurisdiction · supremacy · dominion · power · ascendancy · suzerainty · tyranny · hegemony · domination · sway · predominance · authority · control · influence · rule · raj · regiment

the authority of a state to govern itself or another state.

synonyms:
autonomy · independence · self-government · self-rule · home rule · self-legislation · self-determination · nonalignment · freedom

a self-governing state.


Sovereignty is understood in jurisprudence as the full right and power of a governing body to govern itself without any interference from outside sources or bodies. In political theory, sovereignty is a substantive term designating supreme authority over some polity. It is a basic principle underlying the dominant Westphalian model of state foundation.

Me here: The definition of sovereignty is well known. The UB tells about personal sovereignty and the absolute right of freewill.


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Robert Lansing states: "A primitive community originates in the gregarious impulse inherent in human nature rather than from any process of reasoning by the individuals, who compose it. "

I don't think primitive man was all that gregarious at first. I think the adjutant impulse for it was definitely contributory, but it had to evolve.

(763.4) 68:1.1 When brought closely together, men often learn to like one another, but primitive man was not naturally overflowing with the spirit of brotherly feeling and the desire for social contact with his fellows. Rather did the early races learn by sad experience that “in union there is strength”; and it is this lack of natural brotherly attraction that now stands in the way of immediate realization of the brotherhood of man on Urantia.

References concerning the gregarious impulse:

(402.7) 36:5.10 5. The spirit of counsel — the social urge, the endowment of species co-operation; the ability of will creatures to harmonize with their fellows; the origin of the gregarious instinct among the more lowly creatures.

(765.1) 68:2.4 The herd instinct in natural man is hardly sufficient to account for the development of such a social organization as now exists on Urantia. Though this innate gregarious propensity lies at the bottom of human society, much of man’s sociability is an acquirement. Two great influences which contributed to the early association of human beings were food hunger and sex love; these instinctive urges man shares with the animal world. Two other emotions which drove human beings together and held them together were vanity and fear, more particularly ghost fear.

(2094.6) 196.3.7  1. Humanitarian fellowship — love. The purely animal mind may be gregarious for self-protection, but only the spirit-indwelt intellect is unselfishly altruistic and unconditionally loving.

I think beneficial social contact had to be introduced to primitive man and it was the Dalamatia teachers who initiated the process, so revelation played a role in the development of civilization and eventually the state.

(763.3) 68:0.3 Social evolution of the co-operative order was initiated by the Dalamatia teachers, and for three hundred thousand years mankind was nurtured in the idea of group activities. The blue man most of all profited by these early social teachings, the red man to some extent, and the black man least of all. In more recent times the yellow race and the white race have presented the most advanced social development on Urantia.

No doubt though, it seems that the formation of social groups is rooted in the need for self-protection and self-perpetuation with the group suppling the collective power to fulfill that need. Is this the same power that Lansing calls sovereignty?


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Okay...so the topic is being changed. So be it. From planetary sovereignty to political sovereignty. Sovereignty does not evolve on rhe material worlds.

Originally sovereignty is ordained and established by Deity and the Creator Sons. There are two forms - personal and jurisdictional - which may be territorial or by functional groupings, and could be considered political I suppose but is not really. It is organizationally administrative and functional in nature.

Material/evolutionary/political sovereignty is man made as a function of power exercised. Remember that celestial sovereignty is enforced by the personal sovereignty of free will cooperation by the designated and affected beings of a jurisdiction which may or may not be territorial. Material/evolutionary sovereignty is won by might and sustainable by might. It's result are nations and nationalism.

Mr Lansing's definitions and perspective are very limited and are not founded on the most absolute and basic element of sovereignty which is individual freewill choice.


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fanofVan wrote:
Me here: The definition of sovereignty is well known. The UB tells about personal sovereignty and the absolute right of freewill.


Me here: Some may believe the definition of sovereignty is well known. However the concept among humans on this planet has been evolving since it was first conceived in the 1600's. It is undergoing clarification and refinement and consideration in many different contexts and in different schools of thought. Those who compile dictionaries must reduce a lot of information into something more generic without the cloudiness and controversy that spoil the utility of the dictionary's conciseness.

The only place where the UB's authors talk extensively about sovereignty seems to be the narrative of the Urmia lectures. The Midwayers were the authors. They follow a fairly standard usage of the word but they are talking principally about political sovereignty and how it works in human terms.

P.S. In case the validity of my statement is called into question here is one reference:

Quote:
It is clear that the concept of sovereignty has evolved and that its validity can be challenged. Its definition was never completely clear but it definitely does not equate absolutism anymore. In fact, sovereignty is today considered to include a number of responsibilities for States. The Global Trust Project for instance, looks at sovereigns as ‘trustees of humanity’ and aims to examine the obligations that States and international organisations have towards various stakeholders, including foreign stakeholders.


http://opiniojuris.org/2016/08/18/emerg ... nizations/


Last edited by Riktare on Fri Aug 02, 2019 3:57 am +0000, edited 2 times in total.

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