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We are told that for us that this world is but a bridge to the next and it to the next forevermore. This world of our birth is but a launching pad. Same for Reservists.

But the Midwayers are Urantia's permanent citizens. Even they will eventually depart into ascencion careers. The Life Carriers have a vested interest and the Counsel of 24!

We are told the universe is both mechanism and organism but God nor life is found within all matter...not all matter anyway...like rock and dirt...and even that which has life does not all have spirit...not all of life anyway...

I would be very interested in text support of the claim that intelligence "pervades" all matter. Certainly the quote posted does not say that. Penetrated by circuits makes matter responsive TO intelligence and will, not pervaded by them.

Nothing without personality has will or intelligence but all things are subject thereto. An important distinction I think, especially for Stephen. Another example where the attempt to be agreeable and avoid conflict in a classroom can lead to confusion and misunderstanding of the reality under study.

Life, intelligence, and will do not pervade or reside within all matter...but all matter is responsive to those.


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I suppose you could argue that "actual life pulsating throughout" might not necessarily mean "life is found within all matter". I guess on the grounds that each infinitesimal volume of space in the matter does not necessarily contain something constituting life. But we are not given the details and I'm not sure how you define "life is found within all matter" if you are as legalistic as you seem to want to be.

116:7.1 (1276.2) The grand universe is not only a material creation of physical grandeur, spirit sublimity, and intellectual magnitude, it is also a magnificent and responsive living organism. There is actual life pulsating throughout the mechanism of the vast creation of the vibrant cosmos. The physical reality of the universes is symbolic of the perceivable reality of the Almighty Supreme; and this material and living organism is penetrated by intelligence circuits, even as the human body is traversed by a network of neural sensation paths.


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Sorry. Don't mean to be legalistic...only accurate. There are those who believe there is life, luck, intelligence, etc. in crystals and icons and trees and mountains, even to the point of worship....even "mother" earth is personified. I think accuracy is called for here or we risk misleading those seeking validation and verifications which are not found in the UB.


Last edited by fanofVan on Fri Jul 26, 2019 6:23 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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Riktare wrote:
And so on up until Michael. He may be the final or highest protector in the realm of time and space.


Do you mean for all seven superuniverses? I don't think I can agree with that, but certainly he is the protector of all his creation, as is the Divine Minister. But what do we need protection from exactly? Doesn't sovereignty have to do with power and authority to rule? How does destiny relate to sovereignty? I would think that the destiny of all creation during this current universe age is the emergence of the sovereignty of the Supreme.

Riktare wrote:
By stakeholders I mean the persons who expect to see value arise from the endeavor.


That would be every single personality in existence, wouldn't it? Or to be more precise, all those personalities who choose to participate.

Riktare wrote:
I imagine that, if the Trinity is the highest stakeholder of our planet's destiny, they will want to see the greatest realization of actuals from the potentials set in motion. I suppose too, that the growth of the Supreme Being is part of the value rendering equation.


I think the Trinity is concerned with totality, whereas the Supreme is a reflection of the Trinity's totality attitude in relation to triodity actualization.

(115.4) 10:7.2 As things appear to the mortal on the finite level, the Paradise Trinity, like the Supreme Being, is concerned only with the total — total planet, total universe, total superuniverse, total grand universe. This totality attitude exists because the Trinity is the total of Deity and for many other reasons.

(115.5) 10:7.3 The Supreme Being is something less and something other than the Trinity functioning in the finite universes; but within certain limits and during the present era of incomplete power-personalization, this evolutionary Deity does appear to reflect the attitude of the Trinity of Supremacy. The Father, Son, and Spirit do not personally function with the Supreme Being, but during the present universe age they collaborate with him as the Trinity. We understand that they sustain a similar relationship to the Ultimate. We often conjecture as to what will be the personal relationship between the Paradise Deities and God the Supreme when he has finally evolved, but we do not really know.


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Riktare wrote:
By the way, we're told that the universe is more like a living organism than dead matter. We might see The Earth as a chunk of rock, but within and around that rock there is energy and intelligence pervading it, possibly even some sort of will.

116:7.1 (1276.2) The grand universe is not only a material creation of physical grandeur, spirit sublimity, and intellectual magnitude, it is also a magnificent and responsive living organism. There is actual life pulsating throughout the mechanism of the vast creation of the vibrant cosmos. The physical reality of the universes is symbolic of the perceivable reality of the Almighty Supreme; and this material and living organism is penetrated by intelligence circuits, even as the human body is traversed by a network of neural sensation paths. This physical universe is permeated by energy lanes which effectively activate material creation, even as the human body is nourished and energized by the circulatory distribution of the assimilable energy products of nourishment. The vast universe is not without those co-ordinating centers of magnificent overcontrol which might be compared to the delicate chemical-control system of the human mechanism. But if you only knew something about the physique of a power center, we could, by analogy, tell you so much more about the physical universe.


I think the key information in the reference cited concerns the Almighty Supreme. Life is in the mechanism, and the mechanism is the experiential power of the Almighty Supreme unifiying with the universe Creators and the Supreme Mind.

(251.1) 22:7.11 The Supreme Being is the unification of three phases of Deity reality: God the Supreme, the spiritual unification of certain finite aspects of the Paradise Trinity; the Almighty Supreme, the power unification of the grand universe Creators; and the Supreme Mind, the individual contribution of the Third Source and Center and his co-ordinates to the reality of the Supreme Being.

(641.3) 56:6.2 The personality realities of the Supreme Being come forth from the Paradise Deities and on the pilot world of the outer Havona circuit unify with the power prerogatives of the Almighty Supreme coming up from the Creator divinities of the grand universe. God the Supreme as a person existed in Havona before the creation of the seven superuniverses, but he functioned only on spiritual levels. The evolution of the Almighty power of Supremacy by diverse divinity synthesis in the evolving universes eventuated in a new power presence of Deity which co-ordinated with the spiritual person of the Supreme in Havona by means of the Supreme Mind, which concomitantly translated from the potential resident in the infinite mind of the Infinite Spirit to the active functional mind of the Supreme Being.


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katroofjebus wrote:
Do you mean for all seven superuniverses?


No, I mean Michael is the principal protector of the destiny of Urantia. Apparently throughout The Grand Universe no one else closer to The Father is charged or privileged with that duty.

katroofjebus wrote:
But what do we need protection from exactly? Doesn't sovereignty have to do with power and authority to rule? How does destiny relate to sovereignty? I would think that the destiny of all creation during this current universe age is the emergence of the sovereignty of the Supreme.


We need protection from physical accidents, such as wandering asteroids and super-solar flares, for example. We need protection from wayward celestial administrators. We need protection from wayward human administrators, i.e. dictators and warlords. That is, if we are to significantly contribute to the destiny of the planet. And those are only the ones we can imagine. There is probably much more that celestial beings and even the Midwayers understand.

katroofjebus wrote:
Riktare wrote:
By stakeholders I mean the persons who expect to see value arise from the endeavor.

That would be every single personality in existence, wouldn't it? Or to be more precise, all those personalities who choose to participate.


Yes, though The Trinity would be the highest stakeholder and the one providing the impetus and raw material for the enterprise. Apart from The Trinity possibly all of our interests are encompassed or summed in The Supreme Being.

katroofjebus wrote:
I think the Trinity is concerned with totality, whereas the Supreme is a reflection of the Trinity's totality attitude in relation to triodity actualization.

(115.4) 10:7.2 As things appear to the mortal on the finite level, the Paradise Trinity, like the Supreme Being, is concerned only with the total — total planet, total universe, total superuniverse, total grand universe. This totality attitude exists because the Trinity is the total of Deity and for many other reasons.

(115.5) 10:7.3 The Supreme Being is something less and something other than the Trinity functioning in the finite universes; but within certain limits and during the present era of incomplete power-personalization, this evolutionary Deity does appear to reflect the attitude of the Trinity of Supremacy. The Father, Son, and Spirit do not personally function with the Supreme Being, but during the present universe age they collaborate with him as the Trinity. We understand that they sustain a similar relationship to the Ultimate. We often conjecture as to what will be the personal relationship between the Paradise Deities and God the Supreme when he has finally evolved, but we do not really know.


That might be. I read though that both are concerned with the totality, while The Supreme is maybe especially concerned with the person aspects of power expression in the superuniverses. However, The Father delegates the expression of power to another personality as far as is possible.


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Riktare wrote:
We need protection from physical accidents, such as wandering asteroids and super-solar flares, for example. We need protection from wayward celestial administrators. We need protection from wayward human administrators, i.e. dictators and warlords. That is, if we are to significantly contribute to the destiny of the planet. And those are only the ones we can imagine. There is probably much more that celestial beings and even the Midwayers understand.


Yes, I see your point, although I'm not sure it's the responsibility of celestials to protect us from "wayward human administrators". Isn't that our human responsibility? Don't we have to grow in wisdom to the point where we can control these things ourselves and thus build a more robust civilization well on its way to light and life? I concede that we do have plenty of help in these matters though, and I believe it primarily comes from the angels.

(1250.1) 114:0.1 THE Most Highs rule in the kingdoms of men through many celestial forces and agencies but chiefly through the ministry of seraphim.

Riktare wrote:
Apart from The Trinity possibly all of our interests are encompassed or summed in The Supreme Being.


That was my point, but I don't think the Supreme can be separated from the Trinity.

(12.1) 0:8.10 The grand universe is the threefold Deity domain of the Trinity of Supremacy, God the Sevenfold, and the Supreme Being. God the Supreme is potential in the Paradise Trinity, from whom he derives his personality and spirit attributes; but he is now actualizing in the Creator Sons, Ancients of Days, and the Master Spirits, from whom he derives his power as Almighty to the superuniverses of time and space. This power manifestation of the immediate God of evolutionary creatures actually time-space evolves concomitantly with them. The Almighty Supreme, evolving on the value-level of nonpersonal activities, and the spirit person of God the Supreme are one reality — the Supreme Being.

Riktare wrote:
I read though that both are concerned with the totality, while The Supreme is maybe especially concerned with the person aspects of power expression in the superuniverses. However, The Father delegates the expression of power to another personality as far as is possible.


That is true, especially since the Supreme is potential in the Trinity. But I think too that it's important to delineate, as is done in the above reference, that God the Supreme is personal power, the Almighty Supreme is nonpersonal power, and combined they are the Supreme Being of power-personality synthesis.

That being said, in terms of the Father delegating power or sovereignty, I think it's important to state that he does so with everything except the power and sovereignty (volition) of personality.

(62.2) 5:0.2 God has distributed the infinity of his eternal nature throughout the existential realities of his six absolute co-ordinates, but he may, at any time, make direct personal contact with any part or phase or kind of creation through the agency of his prepersonal fragments. And the eternal God has also reserved to himself the prerogative of bestowing personality upon the divine Creators and the living creatures of the universe of universes, while he has further reserved the prerogative of maintaining direct and parental contact with all these personal beings through the personality circuit.

(111.4) 10:3.6 We observe that the Father has divested himself of all direct manifestations of absoluteness except absolute fatherhood and absolute volition. We do not know whether volition is an inalienable attribute of the Father; we can only observe that he did not divest himself of volition. Such infinity of will must have been eternally inherent in the First Source and Center.


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katroofjebus wrote:
That is true, especially since the Supreme is potential in the Trinity. But I think too that it's important to delineate, as is done in the above reference, that God the Supreme is personal power, the Almighty Supreme is nonpersonal power, and combined they are the Supreme Being of power-personality synthesis.


Thanks for that clarification. It hadn't register with me previously. I suppose that The Almighty Supreme could be somewhat analogous to The Universal Absolute, if we compare The Supreme Being to the totality of divinity.


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Riktare wrote:
I suppose that The Almighty Supreme could be somewhat analogous to The Universal Absolute, if we compare The Supreme Being to the totality of divinity.


I'm not sure, but I think this reference describes that analogy when including both the personal and "other-than-personal" in the totality of divinity on each level, Supreme, Ultimate and Absolute.

(1167.3) 106:5.2 It should be made clear that these experiential Trinities are correlative, not only of the personality qualities of experiential Divinity, but also of all the other-than-personal qualities which characterize their attained Deity unity. While this presentation deals primarily with the personal phases of the unification of the cosmos, it is nonetheless true that the impersonal aspects of the universe of universes are likewise destined to undergo unification as is illustrated by the power-personality synthesis now going on in connection with the evolution of the Supreme Being. The spirit-personal qualities of the Supreme are inseparable from the power prerogatives of the Almighty, and both are complemented by the unknown potential of Supreme mind. Neither can God the Ultimate as a person be considered apart from the other-than-personal aspects of Ultimate Deity. And on the absolute level the Deity and the Unqualified Absolutes are inseparable and indistinguishable in the presence of the Universal Absolute.


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Hmmm, interesting, though I meant Unqualified Absolute rather than Universal Absolute in the last post.


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Riktare wrote:
Hmmm, interesting, though I meant Unqualified Absolute rather than Universal Absolute in the last post.


I was wondering if you meant that. Do you think the Universal Absolute is comparable to the Supreme mind then? At least in regards to my reference?


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I need to read up and understand The Supreme Mind better before answering. Quite frankly The Unqualified Absolute scares me. Plants and animals are representative of mind apart from personality. A non-teachable aspect of mind performance is there. Is there a will apart from personality? I think there must be, even though that will may not be focused, permanent or consistent or quite like the certain will that a person may exhibit. I guess that the reason for fear is the lack of ability to comprehend things that are not limited in time and space.

Those who have undergone the experience of what might be called spontaneous and intense "Kundalini Awakening" or trans-personal transformation might have experienced such profound contact with the superconsciousness intertwined with the subconsciousness that they have contacted some aspect of The Unqualified Absolute. Those experiences can be like nothing one has ever experienced before. When the limitations of time and space are temporarily transcended the realm is so vast that a human has no frame of reference left to anchor their beliefs, faith, expectations and comprehension. It seems that focusing on the personal aspects of deity is the antidote, which brings truth, beauty and goodness back as anchoring manifestations in one's life.


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Riktare wrote:
Quite frankly The Unqualified Absolute scares me. Plants and animals are representative of mind apart from personality. A non-teachable aspect of mind performance is there.


I'm a little confused. What's the connection of the Unqualified Absolute to plants and animals?


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Riktare wrote:
I need to read up and understand The Supreme Mind better before answering. Quite frankly The Unqualified Absolute scares me. Plants and animals are representative of mind apart from personality. A non-teachable aspect of mind performance is there. Is there a will apart from personality? I think there must be, even though that will may not be focused, permanent or consistent or quite like the certain will that a person may exhibit. I guess that the reason for fear is the lack of ability to comprehend things that are not limited in time and space.

Those who have undergone the experience of what might be called spontaneous and intense "Kundalini Awakening" or trans-personal transformation might have experienced such profound contact with the superconsciousness intertwined with the subconsciousness that they have contacted some aspect of The Unqualified Absolute. Those experiences can be like nothing one has ever experienced before. When the limitations of time and space are temporarily transcended the realm is so vast that a human has no frame of reference left to anchor their beliefs, faith, expectations and comprehension. It seems that focusing on the personal aspects of deity is the antidote, which brings truth, beauty and goodness back as anchoring manifestations in one's life.


I'm a little confused too. The Unqualified Absolute is a power and presence that is fully responsive to the Trinity and therefore may be certainly predicted to exhibit or reflect or be contained by the personality of The First Source and Center which is total benevolence. There is no will apart from personality.

The mind ministry for unteachable mind is itself personal in source and in ministry and is not the Unqualified Absolute. Plants and animals and organisms and cells, etc. are not "representative of mind apart from personality". There is no such thing.

It is highly unlikely that any form of personal spiritual awakening - whether hindu and chakra based or of the Zen satori and nirvana form or any other form - contacts mindlessness of any aspect of Deity that is not personal and present in mind. I'd be very interested in some text that suggests that human superconscious makes contact beyond the Thought Adjuster - or needs to for spiritual awakening.

To transcend temporal reality and experience transcendent states of being and awareness may be an uncommon experience but should add true clarity and purpose and integrations of meaning and value to those who do have these experiences. And many claim such experience who have never had them but instead endured the extremes of mysticism, fasting, and hallucination by various methods or have suffered the product of subconscious invention and delusion and self manipulation. True awakening or satori or kundalini is an anchoring experience as well as a complete release of all attachments or anchoring...it is the essence and purity of paradox which is logical and integrates all aspects of what was formerly mysteriously disconnected.

We are taught there is no rational or reasonable source of fear in all the universe of universes except the animal/survival level itself. No aspect of Deity should cause any anxiety or doubt as to the universal love and affection of all Divinity and Deity related to all beings and creatures in eternity/infinity and time/space. No enlightened or awakened mind experiences fear of any form or by any source...that would be the opposite of awakened.

The UB calls this perfecting and experiential wisdom and does include moments and situations of true insight and intuition and the confluence of understanding and awareness of realities that are profound and definitely paradigm shifting. Many people have such experiences in the course of truth seeking and wonderment and prayer and communion with God. It is not a mystical or masterful or secretive experience. It occurs when our mind touches God's mind with clarity and certainty.



0:11.7 (14.5) 2. The Unqualified Absolute is nonpersonal, extradivine, and undeified. The Unqualified Absolute is therefore devoid of personality, divinity, and all creator prerogatives. Neither fact nor truth, experience nor revelation, philosophy nor absonity are able to penetrate the nature and character of this Absolute without universe qualification.

0:11.8 (14.6) Let it be made clear that the Unqualified Absolute is a positive reality pervading the grand universe and, apparently, extending with equal space presence on out into the force activities and prematerial evolutions of the staggering stretches of the space regions beyond the seven superuniverses. The Unqualified Absolute is not a mere negativism of philosophic concept predicated on the assumptions of metaphysical sophistries concerning the universality, dominance, and primacy of the unconditioned and the unqualified. The Unqualified Absolute is a positive universe overcontrol in infinity; this overcontrol is space-force unlimited but is definitely conditioned by the presence of life, mind, spirit, and personality, and is further conditioned by the will-reactions and purposeful mandates of the Paradise Trinity.

0:11.9 (14.7) We are convinced that the Unqualified Absolute is not an undifferentiated and all-pervading influence comparable either to the pantheistic concepts of metaphysics or to the sometime ether hypothesis of science. The Unqualified Absolute is force unlimited and Deity conditioned, but we do not fully perceive the relation of this Absolute to the spirit realities of the universes.

As to nonteachable mind ministry - a function of the Third Source and Center/Infinite Spirit:

9:5.3 (103.1) The unique feature of mind is that it can be bestowed upon such a wide range of life. Through his creative and creature associates the Third Source and Center ministers to all minds on all spheres. He ministers to human and subhuman intellect through the adjutants of the local universes and, through the agency of the physical controllers, ministers even to the lowest nonexperiencing entities of the most primitive types of living things. And always is the direction of mind a ministry of mind-spirit or mind-energy personalities.


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fanofVan wrote:

NO...physical matter and systems are not and cannot have sovereignty. Planets are just dirt, rocks, minerals, etc. They have no life or being of their own. They are but vehicles for life. You do not know this? Same for stars and asteroids, etc.
Sovereignty is a function of personality leadership derived by the voluntary cooperation of other personalities within a specific set of those personalities in a hierarchical system of aggregational order/organization.


But if our world is constituted as a whole planet, then the First Source and Center could know, potentially the spirits (Life Carriers, Melchizedek, et c.), and the souls, that have ever serviced or transpired through its jurisdiction. If God the First Source and Center was prefragmented into the indwelling of Machiventa Melchizedek's mind (and then Jesus'), then such a Father Fragment not only represents the individual destiny of a person, but that is a personalised Thought Adjuster, the Urantian Adjuster, whose segmented destiny does not pertain to that of a human individual, but rather a planet who is home to all souls who had origination here. Such Fragment I feel, again, is capable of presiding over the course of history, of our world's future destiny, and though each of we has an individualised Adjuster that pertains to our own courses of post-ultimate destiny, we can learn to appreciate this world and that in the Unqualified Absolute which the Universal Father reserves for every individual.

Hm... Rocks do not have consciousness, but the potential for life was recognised by the administration of Satania, and long before that the First Source and Center might have known even greater things for the potential of our planet.

I realise how obsurd this come from the point of view that "Urantia is a person", "Urantia has a personality"; however, I again ask if Urantian Sovereignty were represented by Machiventa the vicegerent of Urantia, and if the First Source and Center has any ultimate potentials reserved or segmented (fragmented)within the future ultimate potentials of the universe for Urantia distinctly.

In a similar respect, what human indiivduals that you know express real sovereignty? Is there any man who willing to defend the abuses that the planet receives, who feels personally grieved or at least guilty for allowing natures abundance to be threatened? If a human individual who has gained actual sovereignty, and thus extends his own duties "as a shadow" to protect his world, the world from where he originates "Urantia is a great rock."

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