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 Post subject: Re: DANGERS OF DEMOCRACY
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Jim George wrote:
Very well said, Kat. The issue is our willingness to be led by popular values rather than by spiritual value, a perception each of us must identify and experience within our own persons. Even the practice of loving our neighbor must be personally evaluated. This individual effort is one of the main points of the Fifth Epochal Revelation.


Thanks Jim. I agree that true service begins with true religion, the religion of genuine personal experience. The religion of Jesus provides for a natural outworking of the religionist's inner experience with him. It doesn't matter what secular area a true religionist finds himself serving, the roots of his service are found in his personal religious experience within the soul. The natural outworking manifests socially as spiritual fruit. Purely social fruit has a different origin, humanism, which attempts to assign to humans that which is God's and is therefore devoid of spiritual content. The secularity of service is of little concern to a true religionist whose only desire is to do the Father's will, and that can be done in any occupation.

References:

(1585.4) 140:10.6 This new religion of Jesus was not without its practical implications, but whatever of practical political, social, or economic value there is to be found in his teaching is the natural outworking of this inner experience of the soul as it manifests the fruits of the spirit in the spontaneous daily ministry of genuine personal religious experience.

(1126.4) 102:7.4 True, many apparently religious traits can grow out of nonreligious roots. Man can, intellectually, deny God and yet be morally good, loyal, filial, honest, and even idealistic. Man may graft many purely humanistic branches onto his basic spiritual nature and thus apparently prove his contentions in behalf of a godless religion, but such an experience is devoid of survival values, God-knowingness and God-ascension. In such a mortal experience only social fruits are forthcoming, not spiritual. The graft determines the nature of the fruit, notwithstanding that the living sustenance is drawn from the roots of original divine endowment of both mind and spirit.

(1959.3) 181:2.19 days. If, for the time being, your work in the outward affairs of the kingdom should be completed, you should go back to your former labors with the new enlightenment of the experience of sonship with God and with the exalted realization that, to him who is God-knowing, there is no such thing as common labor or secular toil. To you who have worked with me, all things have become sacred, and all earthly labor has become a service even to God the Father.


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 Post subject: Re: DANGERS OF DEMOCRACY
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This brings me to a point which I don't have time to document references, but while democracy is an ideal for mankind, it is secular with the exception of the three branch design, but what is not secular is our sacred involvement in it.


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Jim George wrote:
This brings me to a point which I don't have time to document references, but while democracy is an ideal for mankind, it is secular with the exception of the three branch design, but what is not secular is our sacred involvement in it.


Amen.


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 Post subject: Re: DANGERS OF DEMOCRACY
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Jim George wrote:
This brings me to a point which I don't have time to document references, but while democracy is an ideal for mankind, it is secular with the exception of the three branch design, but what is not secular is our sacred involvement in it.


This got me thinking about the ways I am involved in democracy. I vote, I pay taxes, I attend local government issue meetings, sometimes I make phone calls for a candidate I am supporting. I have to be honest: I don't regard any of these activities as "sacred". Perhaps I am not as spiritual as others. To me, these are my civic duty and also, something I do out of self-interest and interest for my household prosperity, health and well-being. Also, out of regard for those less fortunate; but even then, my concern is for physical matters such as access to food, healthcare, clean water, sustainable environment, and mental health.

Personally, I don't see my civic involvement as anything sacred. On the other hand, anything I do in a worshipful, meditative frame of mind, be it sweeping the floor, soothing a child, using some creativity in cooking a meal, can be considered sacred. Sacredness is not as much about WHAT we do, but in HOW we do it.


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 Post subject: Re: DANGERS OF DEMOCRACY
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Agon D. Onter wrote:
Jim George wrote:
This brings me to a point which I don't have time to document references, but while democracy is an ideal for mankind, it is secular with the exception of the three branch design, but what is not secular is our sacred involvement in it.


This got me thinking about the ways I am involved in democracy. I vote, I pay taxes, I attend local government issue meetings, sometimes I make phone calls for a candidate I am supporting. I have to be honest: I don't regard any of these activities as "sacred". Perhaps I am not as spiritual as others. To me, these are my civic duty and also, something I do out of self-interest and interest for my household prosperity, health and well-being. Also, out of regard for those less fortunate; but even then, my concern is for physical matters such as access to food, healthcare, clean water, sustainable environment, and mental health.

Personally, I don't see my civic involvement as anything sacred. On the other hand, anything I do in a worshipful, meditative frame of mind, be it sweeping the floor, soothing a child, using some creativity in cooking a meal, can be considered sacred. Sacredness is not as much about WHAT we do, but in HOW we do it.


Right On!!! (That's a secular - and therefore - tongue in cheek - an inferior and mediocre Amen!) :wink: :biggrin: 8)


Last edited by fanofVan on Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:56 am +0000, edited 2 times in total.

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Agon D. Onter wrote:
...On the other hand, anything I do in a worshipful, meditative frame of mind, be it sweeping the floor, soothing a child, using some creativity in cooking a meal, can be considered sacred. Sacredness is not as much about WHAT we do, but in HOW we do it.


Sacred is the kitchen that serves others, if cooking is approached that way. Mediocre cooking doesn't satisfy.

Old cook's joke: A very satisfied gourmet asks the cook, "Hey, what's your secret ingredient?" The cook answers, "Love!"

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 Post subject: Re: DANGERS OF DEMOCRACY
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Jim George wrote:
This brings me to a point which I don't have time to document references, but while democracy is an ideal for mankind, it is secular with the exception of the three branch design, but what is not secular is our sacred involvement in it.


I agree. After all, it is the Most Highs who control political evolution on this planet which begins with the family then evolves to a " government of all mankind, by all mankind, and for all mankind," clearly a sacred duty.

(1488.2) 134:5.4 This rule of the Most Highs in the kingdoms of men is not for the especial benefit of any especially favored group of mortals. There is no such thing as a “chosen people.” The rule of the Most Highs, the overcontrollers of political evolution, is a rule designed to foster the greatest good to the greatest number of all men and for the greatest length of time.

(1488.3) 134:5.5 Sovereignty is power and it grows by organization. This growth of the organization of political power is good and proper, for it tends to encompass ever-widening segments of the total of mankind. But this same growth of political organizations creates a problem at every intervening stage between the initial and natural organization of political power — the family — and the final consummation of political growth — the government of all mankind, by all mankind, and for all mankind.


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 Post subject: Re: DANGERS OF DEMOCRACY
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rick warren wrote:
Agon D. Onter wrote:
...On the other hand, anything I do in a worshipful, meditative frame of mind, be it sweeping the floor, soothing a child, using some creativity in cooking a meal, can be considered sacred. Sacredness is not as much about WHAT we do, but in HOW we do it.


Sacred is the kitchen that serves others, if cooking is approached that way. Mediocre cooking doesn't satisfy.


Old cook's joke: A very satisfied gourmet asks the cook, "Hey, what's your secret ingredient?" The cook answers, "Love!"



Service is often done with sacred intent, but even service can be done in a mediocre way. I agree.


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rick warren wrote:
.doesn't democratic rule have spiritual overtones?


I believe so. I believe that the beginning of the Athenian and Roman Republics was an attempt for a leader to extenuate his own liberties and authority. I believe that Cesar Augustus' decree "to number the people for the purposes of taxation", coincides with Jesus' philosophy of "human individuality". Just think about how Melchizedek promised Abraham that his seed would become "as numerous as the stars in the sky", and how averse the Jewish people of those times were to the idea of numbering of the people.

We are told that seraphic planetary government is how a divine administration encroaches upon the observation of human mindset, human proclivities. Katroof quoted the text that states that statesmen must employ "adjustments", that help lead others towards peace. This, in my estimation, is not much different than the way a sculptor must dredge into themselves in order to find the right patterns to portray. The more true civil beaurocracy is able to advance with the ethical standard of mankind, it is simply inevitable that the things that people actually ask for, coincide with the reality of a spiritual administration.

The populism of Lyndon B. Johnson, i.e. "I can imagine the american public going into that voting booth and pulling the lever for my name", is one of those comforting dreams that assuages people, steals their choices away. A corporate decision to focus on marketshare, rather than structure design and functionality also enters a dangerous form of populism, that can lead to a decrease in the quality of the products such corporations produce. In my culture, education is like a misnomer, since "everybody agrees" children should learn, but if the curriculum is only found in a textbook, there is no way to proof the students' knowledge.

How do you find an actual free formal democracy, in those who have actually elected to follow the will of God (I don't even know how such a choice is qualified!). It is like Horatio Alger suggested: that a person with faith can live in the communion of God: the spiritual union of all angels and saints/finalitors. A person can choose to follow Jesus, and thereby accepted into a spiritual community of those who have been claimed as God's children. But you would have to know the difference between someone who actually made that choice and the next goose flying close nearby in formation.

People held onto the principle that a leader of democracy should not have too many opinions, and up until the days of Lincoln literary societies had prided themselves selecting someone "who is willing to serve", who understands the responsibility that is entailed by a nation. But today, many societies who follow the principles of Jesse Root do so with slanted criteria, and the past 50 years have put that on America to the increased overall rate of psychological anxiety, and lowered production. Because now the techonological system is so completely powered up that unless you are wise, you will probably just end up giving your policy petitions to someone else. That is why you must guard your true prayers for the world, but as a politician to support & protect those goals from others which you deem to be righteous and true. Sure people crave that type of represenation; it's just not a guaranteed promise.

And then from this duress created on people who think they are so well-educated, but their nation's population votes at a less-than-90% rate: pray for your enemies, your rivals, not only so that they gain wisdom, but that your own fear does not overpower your need to wait on God, in times of actual global crisis, how to deliver your actions and words such that as to have the real meaningful impact, in those constituents who are willing to serve the same nation.

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 Post subject: Re: DANGERS OF DEMOCRACY
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Agon D. Onter wrote:
rick warren wrote:
Agon D. Onter wrote:
...On the other hand, anything I do in a worshipful, meditative frame of mind, be it sweeping the floor, soothing a child, using some creativity in cooking a meal, can be considered sacred. Sacredness is not as much about WHAT we do, but in HOW we do it.


Sacred is the kitchen that serves others, if cooking is approached that way. Mediocre cooking doesn't satisfy.


Old cook's joke: A very satisfied gourmet asks the cook, "Hey, what's your secret ingredient?" The cook answers, "Love!"



Service is often done with sacred intent, but even service can be done in a mediocre way. I agree.


Yes indeed!!

The idea that spiritual motivation is adequate for excellence ignores the functions of time, experience, and wisdom relative to poor efforts and outcomes, mediocrity, and excellence. Excellent motivation and intention are very important elements to soul building. I would say they are helpful elements for secular social progress of systems and invention of technology and institutions but, nonetheless can certainly result in mediocrity in both spirit and secular expressions.

There really is no substitute for wisdom...material or religious. Wisdom is attained primarily by failure, frustration, disappointment, unexpected consequences, and the repercussions of causes and effects, and the new causes by those effects, and all the personal freewill choice responses to those rippled outward over time and space. The stone dropped in the water effects far more than the water the stone struck.

Excellence must be repeated generation after generation and yet so often we witness great generations of achievement followed by weak and mediocre generations which become spoiled by the success and achievements of others before them. Generational mediocrity is something to consider. How many today suffer from the results of self indulgence and the social effects of prosperity? Prosperity is a very tricky thing. There are so many choices one has when free time and surpluses allow us to ignore basic sustenance and survival efforts.

Is this a form of the glorification of mediocrity? Self indulgence and self gratification rather than the service motive that true social progress and personal spiritization should lead to? Cooking that contains no love for others becomes bland and less nutritious and will starve those cooks who serve it.

Something to consider. 8)


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fanofVan wrote:
Excellence must be repeated



Excellence? Repeated? CAN excellence be repeated? Ok sorry.

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 Post subject: Re: DANGERS OF DEMOCRACY
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SEla_Kelly wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
Excellence must be repeated



Excellence? Repeated? CAN excellence be repeated? Ok sorry.


Unless excellence is repeated, there can be no progress. Progression is the incremental improvements made in one generation and retained by the next that are further improved by another and then the next.

Otherwise we revert and regress. Obviously history is the story of both progressions and regressions. Two steps forward and one step back, yet this dance through the mortal epochs has been exquisitely progressive.

So obviously YES! Excellence is repeated. In each generation there are giants, heros, saints, and martyrs as well as those who are stalwart, courageous, enduring, relentless, and persistent and then also those who serve in humility, meekness, kindness, patience, and love. Every mortal of every generation has the capacity to experience and express excellence.

178:1.15 This gospel of the kingdom is a living truth. I have told you it is like the leaven in the dough, like the grain of mustard seed; and now I declare that it is like the seed of the living being, which, from generation to generation, while it remains the same living seed, unfailingly unfolds itself in new manifestations and grows acceptably in channels of new adaptation to the peculiar needs and conditions of each successive generation. The revelation I have made to you is a living revelation, and I desire that it shall bear appropriate fruits in each individual and in each generation in accordance with the laws of spiritual growth, increase, and adaptative development. From generation to generation this gospel must show increasing vitality and exhibit greater depth of spiritual power. It must not be permitted to become merely a sacred memory, a mere tradition about me and the times in which we now live.

114:6.5 1. The epochal angels.These are the angels of the current age, the dispensational group. These celestial ministers are intrusted with the oversight and direction of the affairs of each generation as they are designed to fit into the mosaic of the age in which they occur. The present corps of epochal angels serving on Urantia is the third group assigned to the planet during the current dispensation.

114:6.6 2. The progress angels.These seraphim are intrusted with the task of initiating the evolutionary progress of the successive social ages. They foster the development of the inherent progressive trend of evolutionary creatures; they labor incessantly to make things what they ought to be. The group now on duty is the second to be assigned to the planet.

81:6.26 (909.7) 9. The racial ideals. The ideals of one generation carve out the channels of destiny for immediate posterity. The quality of the social torchbearers will determine whether civilization goes forward or backward. The homes, churches, and schools of one generation predetermine the character trend of the succeeding generation. The moral and spiritual momentum of a race or a nation largely determines the cultural velocity of that civilization.

81:6.27 (909.8) Ideals elevate the source of the social stream. And no stream will rise any higher than its source no matter what technique of pressure or directional control may be employed. The driving power of even the most material aspects of a cultural civilization is resident in the least material of society’s achievements. Intelligence may control the mechanism of civilization, wisdom may direct it, but spiritual idealism is the energy which really uplifts and advances human culture from one level of attainment to another.

81:6.43 (911.8) And it was by these rungs on the evolutionary ladder that civilization climbed to that place where those mighty influences could be initiated which have culminated in the rapidly expanding culture of the twentieth century. And only by adherence to these essentials can man hope to maintain his present-day civilizations while providing for their continued development and certain survival.

81:6.44 (912.1) This is the gist of the long, long struggle of the peoples of earth to establish civilization since the age of Adam. Present-day culture is the net result of this strenuous evolution. Before the discovery of printing, progress was relatively slow since one generation could not so rapidly benefit from the achievements of its predecessors. But now human society is plunging forward under the force of the accumulated momentum of all the ages through which civilization has struggled.

92:7.14 (1013.9) Modern man is confronted with the task of making more readjustments of human values in one generation than have been made in two thousand years. And this all influences the social attitude toward religion, for religion is a way of living as well as a technique of thinking.

92:7.15 (1013.10) True religion must ever be, at one and the same time, the eternal foundation and the guiding star of all enduring civilizations.


8) Bradly


Last edited by fanofVan on Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:48 am +0000, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: DANGERS OF DEMOCRACY
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fanofVan wrote:

...Unless excellence is repeated, there can be no progress. Progression is the incremental improvements made in one generation and retained by the next that are further improved by another and then the next.

Otherwise we revert and regress. Obviously history is the story of both progressions and regressions. Two steps forward and one step back, yet this dance through the mortal epochs has been exquisitely progressive.

So obviously YES! Excellence is repeated. In each generation there are giants, heros, saints, and martyrs as well as those who are stalwart, courageous, enduring, relentless, and persistent and the also those who serve in humility, meekness, kindness, patience, and love. Every mortal of every generation has the capacity to experience and express excellence.



Beautifully said!


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 Post subject: Re: DANGERS OF DEMOCRACY
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SEla_Kelly wrote:
Excellence? Repeated? CAN excellence be repeated? Ok sorry.


Excellence, when it comes to civilization, is not something that can be inherited from one generation to another. It must be taught anew to each generation.

(763.2) 68:0.2 Civilization is a racial acquirement; it is not biologically inherent; hence must all children be reared in an environment of culture, while each succeeding generation of youth must receive anew its education. The superior qualities of civilization — scientific, philosophic, and religious — are not transmitted from one generation to another by direct inheritance. These cultural achievements are preserved only by the enlightened conservation of social inheritance.

One naturally asks, what is enlightened conservation of social inheritance?


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 Post subject: Re: DANGERS OF DEMOCRACY
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katroofjebus wrote:
SEla_Kelly wrote:
Excellence? Repeated? CAN excellence be repeated? Ok sorry.


Excellence, when it comes to civilization, is not something that can be inherited from one generation to another. It must be taught anew to each generation.

(763.2) 68:0.2 Civilization is a racial acquirement; it is not biologically inherent; hence must all children be reared in an environment of culture, while each succeeding generation of youth must receive anew its education. The superior qualities of civilization — scientific, philosophic, and religious — are not transmitted from one generation to another by direct inheritance. These cultural achievements are preserved only by the enlightened conservation of social inheritance.

One naturally asks, what is enlightened conservation of social inheritance?


It IS inherited generation to generation according to the quote...it is not genetically inherited of course but must be preserved and applied.


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