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 Post subject: Re: DANGERS OF DEMOCRACY
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Does God have slaves? Well I know that the Conjoint Actor is like an almighty actor, forever fulfilling the mandates of the First Source and center. To be a slave, in a divine sense, implies that the human individual realises his own duty as a cosmic citizenship. Not only can a person self-identify as a slave, or as God's servant, but get real it is a self-identification of great gladness, knowing the opportunities to act, to perform labour, to do the work of the father, is a service that liberates the soul, so to be compared to a servant is like being compared to the Third Source and Center, haha one of the many reasons why those who suffer in striving for righteousness' sake are glad to be mocked or being though of weird or whatever. "Blessed is he who knows the will of God." I agree, for that implies you are like God's servant the Infinite Spirit, able to actually act and do God's will.

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SEla_Kelly wrote:
Does God have slaves? Well I know that the Conjoint Actor is like an almighty actor, forever fulfilling the mandates of the First Source and center. To be a slave, in a divine sense, implies that the human individual realises his own duty as a cosmic citizenship. Not only can a person self-identify as a slave, or as God's servant, but get real it is a self-identification of great gladness, knowing the opportunities to act, to perform labour, to do the work of the father, is a service that liberates the soul, so to be compared to a servant is like being compared to the Third Source and Center, haha one of the many reasons why those who suffer in striving for righteousness' sake are glad to be mocked or being though of weird or whatever. "Blessed is he who knows the will of God." I agree, for that implies you are like God's servant the Infinite Spirit, able to actually act and do God's will.


Seriously? You repeat your claims and make light of slavery? Heavenly slavery? Again you claim there is no free will. I am not God's slave...or servant. I am his beloved son and heir to the kingdom of creation. And God's other children are family and siblings, not fellow slaves, servants, or lackeys.


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 Post subject: Re: DANGERS OF DEMOCRACY
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The UB tells us that slavery is characteristic of primitive societies yet Stephen asks if God has slaves? Stephen, have you read the book?


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What I am saying is that a society where a person can work hard enough to overcome the status of being a slave, as in the Roman times, has more opportunities compared with permanent indenturement. Again, there is no shame in being a servant. Jesus washed his Apostles' feet before the last supper. And in the supreme sense, knowing the will of God, is the prerequisite for intelligently doing the will of God according to your individual understanding. I am not advocating servitude or moral/economic mistreatment. What I am saying, is that to realise and recognise the opportunities you have to work in service unto the First Source and Center, is the real opportunity to be of service in the grand universe. If you want to remain in a finite realm, then think of yourself as a supreme master, but maybe you will overlook the opportunities to do good works, to serve your parents and brethren. In fact, the more opportunities and power that one gains, the more that you should feel obligated to be of more service to the community wherein you dwell. It is not just that the Infinite Spirit has perfectly portrayed the will of God, but also that that the Thought Adjuster is the ultimate servant of the human individual, in theory, and for you to become like him who is the first source and center, is a boding unto an eternal life of supreme service, as a father unto his children.

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 Post subject: Re: DANGERS OF DEMOCRACY
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Please pick a lane Stephen. You are swerving all over the road. You said slave, not me, and more than once. I don't think you understand the difference in being a servant and being of service. A good topic perhaps?

There are important distinctions between service and servitude. A servant may be employed or be a slave. The latter has no free will and please stop romanticizing and defending slavery and slavers. And comparing God to a slave master as you certainly did once again demonstrates how little you know of the Revelation and just how dangerous are your proclamations and how little credibility you should receive here. Good Grief.

The TA is not my servant Stephen. Text please!!!! The TA certainly provides loving service and honors/respects my personal sovereignty and freewill but is not a subject of or to my will. I do not determine or direct the work, methods, priorities, or focus and function of the God Fragment...and neither do you.

A servant, even a loyal servant, is still employed or enslaved and their will is not free but is subject to the choices and will of others. But we must remember that you do not believe in free will either. Is this truly how you see the example of Jesus? Or how you view freewill love generated service?

And please post those teachings about serving God. I thought God's will was for his children to love and serve one another...as equals and as a family. That seeving each other served the self and the all and the Supreme and delivers progress to all 3 and serves the greatest good for the greatest number.


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SEla_Kelly wrote:
Again, there is no shame in being a servant. Jesus washed his Apostles' feet before the last supper. And in the supreme sense, knowing the will of God, is the prerequisite for intelligently doing the will of God according to your individual understanding. I am not advocating servitude or moral/economic mistreatment. What I am saying, is that to realise and recognise the opportunities you have to work in service unto the First Source and Center, is the real opportunity to be of service in the grand universe.


I agree. Service is a gift of love, the natural outflowing of a love-saturated heart. One's usefulness to others is an indication of one's nearness to God. The nearer one is to the Father, the closer one comes to being a server of all.

(1096.1) 100:2.4 Spirituality becomes at once the indicator of one’s nearness to God and the measure of one’s usefulness to fellow beings. Spirituality enhances the ability to discover beauty in things, recognize truth in meanings, and discover goodness in values. Spiritual development is determined by capacity therefor and is directly proportional to the elimination of the selfish qualities of love.

(316.5) 28:6.18 The Gods have decreed, “It is more blessed to give than to receive,” and said your Master Son, “He who would be greatest among you let him be server of all.”

SEla_Kelly wrote:
If you want to remain in a finite realm, then think of yourself as a supreme master, but maybe you will overlook the opportunities to do good works, to serve your parents and brethren. In fact, the more opportunities and power that one gains, the more that you should feel obligated to be of more service to the community wherein you dwell.


Yes, and a true servant of God is not servant-minded, but serves out of the pleasure of giving back. Obligation means duty, but a true servant is not duty-minded, but freely giving by his own will.

(1945.3) 180:1.6 Keep in mind: It is loyalty, not sacrifice, that Jesus demands. The consciousness of sacrifice implies the absence of that wholehearted affection which would have made such a loving service a supreme joy. The idea of duty signifies that you are servant-minded and hence are missing the mighty thrill of doing your service as a friend and for a friend. The impulse of friendship transcends all convictions of duty, and the service of a friend for a friend can never be called a sacrifice. The Master has taught the apostles that they are the sons of God. He has called them brethren, and now, before he leaves, he calls them his friends.

SEla_Kelly wrote:
It is not just that the Infinite Spirit has perfectly portrayed the will of God, but also that that the Thought Adjuster is the ultimate servant of the human individual, in theory, and for you to become like him who is the first source and center, is a boding unto an eternal life of supreme service, as a father unto his children.


It is breathtaking, isn't it? That the Thought Adjuster would permit himself to be at the mercy of the human will? And yet remain so touchingly loyal and unassailably committed to the value of that same human being?


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 Post subject: Re: DANGERS OF DEMOCRACY
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So Bonita...your TA is your servant and at your mercy? Really!!??

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 Post subject: Re: DANGERS OF DEMOCRACY
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SEla_Kelly wrote:
Does God have slaves? Well I know that the Conjoint Actor is like an almighty actor, forever fulfilling the mandates of the First Source and center. To be a slave, in a divine sense, implies that the human individual realises his own duty as a cosmic citizenship. Not only can a person self-identify as a slave, or as God's servant, but get real it is a self-identification of great gladness, knowing the opportunities to act, to perform labour, to do the work of the father, is a service that liberates the soul, so to be compared to a servant is like being compared to the Third Source and Center, haha one of the many reasons why those who suffer in striving for righteousness' sake are glad to be mocked or being though of weird or whatever. "Blessed is he who knows the will of God." I agree, for that implies you are like God's servant the Infinite Spirit, able to actually act and do God's will.


You realize that there is a huge difference between being a slave and being a servant, right? And that difference is FREE WILL.

Servants are paid/ compensated/ rewarded for their work, while slaves are not. Salves are forced to labor for free, and if they are lucky, they are treated kindly but they are not compensated or rewarded. Servants consent (free will, anyone?) to work for their employers but slaves do not.


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 Post subject: Re: DANGERS OF DEMOCRACY
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God the TA of man, IS man's servant! His prisoner, and even slave! But in your consideration, I would expect that slaves are considered unwise beings? How do you identify your own Thought Adjuster? Father? MAster? But in the very nature and constitution of such an entity, a reservation of your own eternal self, the duty of a Master is to serve all relentlessly. You can tell God the first source and center "I am your servant". Again, I am not ashamed. Again, I do not understand what free will is, but I believe that will comes from God who is the first source and center. I believe humans have individual personalities, and can choose to do God's will. But as far as individual sentient freedom and sovereignty is concerned, I am not going to make preemptive declarations or buy a timeshare for it. I believe that my sovereignty will come soon enough with my mastery of all necessary tasks and loyalty to God the Father.

Well you have a point though. I said I wanted to use people's manpower, to utilize the skills and intelligence that people have. This is because I am a standard worker who is learning carpentry and I am very glad for the opportunity to be of service. The more that I learn the more that I am able to help, and the more that I want to help. I don't really understand why you think that I am unjust or something for saying that I would want to put people to work, or to appreciate the usefulness of those who serve. Of course my point was really about public officials who must serve/represent their constitutencies.

Well, in a society where everyone is supposed to be independent, who values individual liberty so highly, but in this society no one really explaining to me, what exactly I should be doing. In striving for equality, those with the means must be the ones to compensate others. I do not believe in an edict of human equality, but rather I believe that people should work in order to develop the prerequisites of self-sufficiency, self-directedness. Tell me what I can do that will really satisfy my mind at the end of the day. I want to do all these things while on Urantia, I want to serve God now, be his slave, so that God can teach me all the things I will need to know in order to serve his children in the hereafter. If I was already a great commissioner of the public works, well I could say I am well-qualified a competent beaurocrat, but what I would say is "Let me do it." I would ask my government to let me do the things that they have declared needful.

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 Post subject: Re: DANGERS OF DEMOCRACY
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Stephen,
You've missed my point. Let me try again. Words have precise meanings, and if we, as a study group that communicates SOLELY by the written word, it is imperative that we use words that are true to their commonly understood meanings. In this thread, you have used, and continue to use, the words "servant" and "slave" interchangeably, as if they mean the same thing. They do not.

Those words have very different meanings. So, if you want people to understand what you are saying, you need to be precise in which words you use. For example, setting aside for a moment the not-insignificant offense raised by your statement that God is our servant or slave, let's just focus on the semantics of your sentence from the post above:

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God the TA of man, IS man's servant! His prisoner, and even slave!


Servant = willing, and paid worker
Slave = non-consensual, unpaid laborer

Do you see how opposite those are in meaning? You cannot say that someone is another person's "slave and servant". They are completely different things. Plus, you even added in a bonus 3rd completely different concept "prisoner'. Please take the time and effort to use words with their meanings intact, so we can communicate as a study group.


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 Post subject: Re: DANGERS OF DEMOCRACY
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Stephen says: "God the TA of man, IS man's servant! His prisoner, and even slave!"

And: "I want to serve God now, be his slave, so that God can teach me all the things I will need to know in order to serve his children in the hereafter."

So....according to Stephen and in complete contradiction to the Teachings, God is a slave to mortals and we are slaves of God, both.

Stephen also declares mortals have no personal sovereignty or free will...or not yet as we must perfect without freewill to earn freewill.

Believe whatever you want to Stephen.


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Haha that is not the case, fortunately for man: I personally want to do the work of the first source and center. People have the choice but also not as apparent as for me to be able to do God's will wow if you can reveal that to them, the things that the Adjuster would want to hope for each mortal to choose. Good point!

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 Post subject: Re: DANGERS OF DEMOCRACY
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.

This thread is drifting into other topics. Before it goes too far off its title, could we have a look at the other dangers, the three that haven't been broached?

2. Choice of base and ignorant rulers.

4. Danger of universal suffrage in the hands of uneducated and indolent majorities.

5. Slavery to public opinion; the majority is not always right.


To me, those three dangers are as related as sister and brother. They each involve proper education. But each requires a different approach, no?

We could sorely use schools with accreditation just for politicians, governmental/administrative leadership. Citizens could be required to pass an exam periodically, as is required of drivers, a license to vote. The Electoral College enshrined in the US Constitution was supposed be the device that fixes the tyranny of the majority, but it doesn't work that way in practice. I can't see any of the solutions for any of the five dangers being implemented in the current political climate, and not just in the US, but the world. I expect a great crisis will occur, say in the next decades, and that will give Urantia a chance to reset its systems of governance. One thing that might assist in this is the weather. It could unite all peoples in a common fight for survival, and a consequent restructuring after the battles are won, when we begin to claim what the author of Paper 118 says we will eventually attain: Nearly complete control of the planet:

Man’s increasing control…Man, the civilized, will someday achieve relative mastery of the physical forces of his planet. 118:10.14

One can assume that, eventually, we will also have control of our institutions, as well as our selves.




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 Post subject: Re: DANGERS OF DEMOCRACY
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rick warren wrote:
One can assume that, eventually, we will also have control of our institutions, as well as our selves.


What are our institutions? I've always been impressed by the fact that there are three basic human institutions which here on Urantia have become melded into one social mechanism. Since the mores form the roots of institutions, and since the mores of our current culture are in upheaval, it seems to me that our single institution is somewhat fallible.

(773.1) 69:1.6 These three groups of social practices are intimately interrelated and minutely interdependent the one upon the other. On Urantia they represent a complex organization which functions as a single social mechanism.

(772.3) 69:0.3 Civilized man takes great pride in the character, stability, and continuity of his established institutions, but all human institutions are merely the accumulated mores of the past as they have been conserved conserved by taboos and dignified by religion. Such legacies become traditions, and traditions ultimately metamorphose into conventions.

The three basic institutions are: self-maintenance, self-perpetuation and self-gratification.

Self-maintenance includes the institutions providing food, industry, property, self-preservation, which probably includes medicine, and societal regulation or law and government
Self-perpetuation includes the institutions of home, education, marriage, family, ethics and religion.
Self-gratification includes the institutions of fashion, arts, amusement, games.

I find it most interesting that Urantia never evolved its institutions of self-gratification and one of the problems of modern civilization happens to be this very thing. In fact, since all the institutions are melded together, the institutions of self-maintenance are translating into degenerative forms of self-gratification which is a civilization destroyer, and presumably also a democracy destroyer.

(772.8 ) 69:1.5 3. But civilization has never evolved distinctive institutions of self-gratification.

(766.1) 68.2.11  Vanity contributed mightily to the birth of society; but at the time of these revelations the devious strivings of a vainglorious generation threaten to swamp and submerge the whole complicated structure of a highly specialized civilization. Pleasure-want has long since superseded hunger-want; the legitimate social aims of self-maintenance are rapidly translating themselves into base and threatening forms of self-gratification. Self-maintenance builds society; unbridled self-gratification unfailingly destroys civilization.

Is it possible to identify the specifics of this current pleasure trend the Revelation warns us about? It certainly has nothing to do with the weather, unless weather is a "pleasure-want", which I think we can all agree, it is not.

If self-maintenance institutions are being taken over by self-gratification, and if the societal regulation of law and governance is part of self-maintenance, how do we prevent dissolution into anarchy, where everyone has a right to do whatever brings them pleasure?


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katroofjebus wrote:
rick warren wrote:
One can assume that, eventually, we will also have control of our institutions, as well as our selves.

What are our institutions? I've always been impressed by the fact that there are three basic human institutions which here on Urantia have become melded into one social mechanism. Since the mores form the roots of institutions, and since the mores of our current culture are in upheaval, it seems to me that our single institution is somewhat fallible.

(773.1) 69:1.6 These three groups of social practices are intimately interrelated and minutely interdependent the one upon the other. On Urantia they represent a complex organization which functions as a single social mechanism.

(772.3) 69:0.3 Civilized man takes great pride in the character, stability, and continuity of his established institutions, but all human institutions are merely the accumulated mores of the past as they have been conserved conserved by taboos and dignified by religion. Such legacies become traditions, and traditions ultimately metamorphose into conventions.

The three basic institutions are: self-maintenance, self-perpetuation and self-gratification.

Self-maintenance includes the institutions providing food, industry, property, self-preservation, which probably includes medicine, and societal regulation or law and government
Self-perpetuation includes the institutions of home, education, marriage, family, ethics and religion.
Self-gratification includes the institutions of fashion, arts, amusement, games.

I find it most interesting that Urantia never evolved its institutions of self-gratification and one of the problems of modern civilization happens to be this very thing. In fact, since all the institutions are melded together, the institutions of self-maintenance are translating into degenerative forms of self-gratification which is a civilization destroyer, and presumably also a democracy destroyer.

(772.8 ) 69:1.5 3. But civilization has never evolved distinctive institutions of self-gratification.

(766.1) 68.2.11  Vanity contributed mightily to the birth of society; but at the time of these revelations the devious strivings of a vainglorious generation threaten to swamp and submerge the whole complicated structure of a highly specialized civilization. Pleasure-want has long since superseded hunger-want; the legitimate social aims of self-maintenance are rapidly translating themselves into base and threatening forms of self-gratification. Self-maintenance builds society; unbridled self-gratification unfailingly destroys civilization.

Is it possible to identify the specifics of this current pleasure trend the Revelation warns us about? It certainly has nothing to do with the weather, unless weather is a "pleasure-want", which I think we can all agree, it is not.

If self-maintenance institutions are being taken over by self-gratification, and if the societal regulation of law and governance is part of self-maintenance, how do we prevent dissolution into anarchy, where everyone has a right to do whatever brings them pleasure?


Seems like circumstances are gathering for a big reset, stressful weather (good weather is a delicious pleasure, especially on a bicycle :) ), rotting culture, and over rapid transition. If there is a major retrogression on the cusp (precipitated by those many red flags the authors waved in our faces) then we can rebuild society, a better one, I pray/work for.

Quote:
...But this does not mean that each separate and isolated change in the composition of human society has been for the better. No! indeed no! for there have been many, many retrogressions in the long forward struggle of Urantia civilization. 68:4.7


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