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 Post subject: Re: DANGERS OF DEMOCRACY
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rick warren wrote:
Point taken Katro, but permanent stalemates aren't natural or good solutions. N Korea seems to be such a case. That stalemate festers on and still demands resolution, which could be more war. Stalemate may only delay the inevitable, eh?


I'm not sure permanent stalemates can exist. Evolution always wins. Eventually the inferior gives way to the superior, whatever that happens to be within the given situation. I'm not taking sides, but the North Korean situation is actively evolving even though it may not be apparent given the regime's total control of its media. There may be war, but it's a war between ideologies, which is better than physical war. Both can get nasty, but in the end, it all boils down to money and trade.

(1491.5) 134:6.11 Under global government the national groups will be afforded a real opportunity to realize and enjoy the personal liberties of genuine democracy. The fallacy of self-determination will be ended. With global regulation of money and trade will come the new era of world-wide peace. Soon may a global language evolve, and there will be at least some hope of sometime having a global religion — or religions with a global viewpoint.


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 Post subject: Re: DANGERS OF DEMOCRACY
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Bradly,

Please think in terms of yourself as an individual not a group. My comment was addressed to the reference in 100.0.1 which is clearly addressed to the reality that we are each mediocre until we personally experience dynamic religious living. My addendums were intended to reference to the difference in my own life after experiencing personal spiritual experience and my life before personal spiritual experience.

Personally knowing the experience of the difference, I can say that the statement in 100.1.0 is profoundly accurate. From that I draw the conclusion that without a true and unwavering commitment to know the Father and to do his will we all remain spiritually mediocre. The reference to the fostering of progress to all also implicates this same step each individual must take to participate in the spiritual advancement of all, which is what the passage says.

As Jesus said to Ganid on the way to Rome, 130:4.3, "The highest level to which a finite creature can progress is the recognition of the Universal Father and the knowing of the Supreme. And even then such beings of finality destiny go on experiencing change in the motions of the physical world and in its material phenomena. Likewise do they remain aware of selfhood progression in their continuing ascension of the spiritual universe and of growing consciousness in their deepening appreciation of, and response to, the intellectual cosmos. Only in the perfection, harmony, and unanimity of will can the creature become as one with the Creator; and such a state of divinity is attained and maintained only by the creature’s continuing to live in time and eternity by consistently conforming his finite personal will to the divine will of the Creator. Always must the desire to do the Father’s will be supreme in the soul and dominant over the mind of an ascending son of God."

Then he said this: 130:4.10, "Knowledge is the sphere of the material or fact-discerning mind. Truth is the domain of the spiritually endowed intellect that is conscious of knowing God. Knowledge is demonstrable; truth is experienced. Knowledge is a possession of the mind; truth an experience of the soul, the progressing self. Knowledge is a function of the nonspiritual level; truth is a phase of the mind-spirit level of the universes. The eye of the material mind perceives a world of factual knowledge; the eye of the spiritualized intellect discerns a world of true values. These two views, synchronized and harmonized, reveal the world of reality, wherein wisdom interprets the phenomena of the universe in terms of progressive personal experience."

Don't we all want to live in a world where each leader is proficient at both views? Why would we consider the views of one who knows not the creator as being truly valuable for either personal or social progress? But we must be clear and honest, personal religious experience is the difference, not personal beliefs.

So, the answer to your question and for the clarification of your understanding, it is in realizing the value of true spiritual experience as the progress of each individual and through that progress as a whole. Simply, the addition of spirit insight turns any of us, as well as each of us, from mediocre individuals to those of transformative power, even as it has did for the Alpheus twins.

Jim


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 Post subject: Re: DANGERS OF DEMOCRACY
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I don't think the revelators mean average or normal when they say mediocrity, but rather more likely "lowest common denominator". Probably what they are concerned with is the lack of will, energy, competence and interest of groups or individuals to progress. Or even to understand, imagine and envision a better way of life. Building a better way of life sometimes means solving difficult problems, daring to take risks and investing time, energy and capital. Those are not the things that go hand-in-hand with mediocrity.


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So, the demand that Jim George is expressing is that each human individual strive for perfection according to mind capacity and creature needs, that for the instances of actual self-reflective thoughtful persons implies a greater duty towards others in general. Seeing that a human individual can perceive the actual needs of others, or insight into what another human may in fact be striving towards and as he has already expressed, the need to assist in helping that one achieving that of his own aims, which you can affirm are true or beautiful.

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 Post subject: Re: DANGERS OF DEMOCRACY
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Riktare wrote:
I don't think the revelators mean average or normal when they say mediocrity, but rather more likely "lowest common denominator". Probably what they are concerned with is the lack of will, energy, competence and interest of groups or individuals to progress. Or even to understand, imagine and envision a better way of life. Building a better way of life sometimes means solving difficult problems, daring to take risks and investing time, energy and capital. Those are not the things that go hand-in-hand with mediocrity.


Sounds logical Riktare...what then do you think is meant by the glorification of such mediocrity?

Jim....actually I understand your point and the quotes just fine ...I simply disagree with your claims and conclusions. Democracy is secular and material and group oriented and related. Many religionists today refrain from politics while others are quite mediocre and others are mindless one issue puppets of fear mongers.

You have claimed everything scientific, material, and secular to be mediocre and presume everything religious to be superior. This simplistic perspective denies the causes and realities of human progress through the mortal epochs. And appears to deny the UB teachings that democracy and governance are both secular and group activities. The group is certainly improved by the spiritualization of the each...but does that fact address the actual question and issue?

Like knowledge and fact deliver meanings important to the discovery of values, materialism and secularism are real and cannot simply be dismissed as unimportant. And neither can ethics, altruism, conscience, duty, good intentions, and material wisdom be dismissed as irrelevant to social progress. The issue at hand is the threats to democracy, specifically the glorification of mediocrity.


Last edited by fanofVan on Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:40 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: DANGERS OF DEMOCRACY
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Jim George wrote:
Don't we all want to live in a world where each leader is proficient at both views? Why would we consider the views of one who knows not the creator as being truly valuable for either personal or social progress?


That would certainly be ideal. In paper 52 there is a list of planetary adjustments necessary to achieve a social brotherhood, which includes politics. Those criteria are: social fraternity, intellectual cross-fertilization, ethical awakening, political wisdom, and spiritual insight. To your point, the spiritual component cannot be overlooked. In regards to political wisdom, this is what is written:

(598.1) 52:6.6 4. Political wisdom. Emotional maturity is essential to self-control. Only emotional maturity will insure the substitution of international techniques of civilized adjudication for the barbarous arbitrament of war. Wise statesmen will sometime work for the welfare of humanity even while they strive to promote the interest of their national or racial groups. Selfish political sagacity is ultimately suicidal — destructive of all those enduring qualities which insure planetary group survival.

Emotional maturity is part of self-mastery and self-mastery is a feature of increasing spirit dominance. Wisdom is meant to influence knowledge and glorify culture. Wisdom is the means by which the human mind balances the world of material reality with the universe of spiritual reality, not just for itself, but as a member of the whole. This means being "proficient at both views," as you say.

Like you, I can't stress enough that true service, regardless of the area a person chooses to serve in, must have spiritual roots. There is a natural flow from the inner life to the outer life when connected to the vine. We are not to be fooled by those who graft seemingly righteous causes onto the vine without those causes actually being derived from the original source. This goes to Jesus' warning to be wise as serpents.

Anything of value is derived from the inner Source and utilized by personality in the form of service to others. True service is what Jesus referred to as becoming "the server of all". Doing so indicates the highest form of personality unification because it indicates cosmic socialization of the personality, and that is not mediocre.

(647.5) 56:10.14 Every impulse of every electron, thought, or spirit is an acting unit in the whole universe. Only sin is isolated and evil gravity resisting on the mental and spiritual levels. The universe is a whole; no thing or being exists or lives in isolation. Self-realization is potentially evil if it is antisocial. It is literally true: “No man lives by himself.” Cosmic socialization constitutes the highest form of personality unification. Said Jesus: “He who would be greatest among you, let him become server of all.”

(316.5) 28:6.18 The universal economy is based on intake and output; throughout the eternal career you will never encounter monotony of inaction or stagnation of personality. Progress is made possible by inherent motion, advancement grows out of the divine capacity for action, and achievement is the child of imaginative adventure. But inherent in this capacity for achievement is the responsibility of ethics, the necessity for recognizing that the world and the universe are filled with a multitude of differing types of beings. All of this magnificent creation, including yourself, was not made just for you. This is not an egocentric universe. The Gods have decreed, “It is more blessed to give than to receive,” and said your Master Son, “He who would be greatest among you let him be server of all."


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 Post subject: Re: DANGERS OF DEMOCRACY
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I think the main point is being misunderstood. Mediocrity, according to the Urantia Book is not the same issue we think of when we think of it. We think people who are lazy, uninspired, crowd followers fit the bill, but the Urantia Book says in 100.0.1 that they see people who refuse to seek God are mediocre. God can and will guide all who embrace the reality of true and real spiritual experience in producing the solutions to our political issues, and democracy is itself a perfect example. Our standard bearers, not our religious leaders (those who practice a particular belief system) are they through whom the Most Highs can rule the kingdoms of men. We must seek, each of us, our finest example of fulfilling this call to seek the Father so we might be instrumental in the advancement of mankind. This view is not simplistic; it is the most challenging and invigorating path available to each of us.


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Jim George wrote:
.We think people who are lazy, uninspired, crowd followers fit the bill, but the Urantia Book says in 100.0.1 that they see people who refuse to seek God are mediocre.


I think even God-seekers can be mediocre. What transforms a person goes beyond just seeking, but actual doing. A true servant takes seeking for granted; it's the doing of the Father's will that is the real challenge.

In our current system it is hard for politicians to put their ego-selves aside because that is usually what gets them elected. Elections mostly reward personality cults. When the electorate is motivated by mediocrity, by what the politician can do for them to make their lives easier, then mediocre politicians are elected to office. The politician who can inspire the electorate to strive for a higher ideal is a real winner in my opinion.

The problem is identifying that higher ideal, and that can only be done through the inner life. Civilization is advanced only by the creativity of the inner life. The electorate would do best by learning how to identify those potential leaders who are spiritually dominated within their inner life, those who live by ideals rather than ideas. Then again, I think many people have difficulty discerning the difference between ideas and ideals, so that is another problem of mediocrity – the unwillingness or inability to realize that not all thinking is serviceable. Only truth, found in the inner life, can be acted out.

References:

(1220.2) 111:4.3 The advances of true civilization are all born in this inner world of mankind. It is only the inner life that is truly creative. Civilization can hardly progress when the majority of the youth of any generation devote their interests and energies to the materialistic pursuits of the sensory or outer world.

(1220.4) 111:4.5 Only in the higher levels of the superconscious mind as it impinges upon the spirit realm of human experience can you find those higher concepts in association with effective master patterns which will contribute to the building of a better and more enduring civilization. Personality is inherently creative, but it thus functions only in the inner life of the individual.

(1220.9) 111:4.10 Ideas may take origin in the stimuli of the outer world, but ideals are born only in the creative realms of the inner world. Today the nations of the world are directed by men who have a superabundance of ideas, but they are poverty-stricken in ideals. That is the explanation of poverty, divorce, war, and racial hatreds.

(1121.3) 102:3.1 Intellectual deficiency or educational poverty unavoidably handicaps higher religious attainment because such an impoverished environment of the spiritual nature robs religion of its chief channel of philosophic contact with the world of scientific knowledge. The intellectual factors of religion are important, but their overdevelopment is likewise sometimes very handicapping and embarrassing. Religion must continually labor under a paradoxical necessity: the necessity of making effective use of thought while at the same time discounting the spiritual serviceableness of all thinking.

(42.7) 2:7.6 Happiness ensues from the recognition of truth because it can be acted out; it can be lived. Disappointment and sorrow attend upon error because, not being a reality, it cannot be realized in experience. Divine truth is best known by its spiritual flavor.


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 Post subject: Re: DANGERS OF DEMOCRACY
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Very well said, Kat. The issue is our willingness to be led by popular values rather than by spiritual value, a perception each of us must identify and experience within our own persons. Even the practice of loving our neighbor must be personally evaluated. This individual effort is one of the main points of the Fifth Epochal Revelation.


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 Post subject: Re: DANGERS OF DEMOCRACY
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fanofVan wrote:
Sounds logical Riktare...what then do you think is meant by the glorification of such mediocrity?


I can offer what I believe to be a real life example. I won't give any names so maybe this is "political" only in theory. There is one country whose voter elected officials have invested a great deal of time, money and effort to cultivate and institute certain ideological concepts in the governmental offices, schools, journalistic and news media, all manner of public speech and any other possible means of conferring a particular mindset. This country's people are not the originator of the idea of equality but the have themselves created a particular interpretation or spin on that idea. The idea being promulgated in this case is the idea of dividing everything, all resources and opportunities equally among all people.

This is such a prominent mindset that it is most definitely "glorified" above probably every other ideal, including and superseding any religious or moral ideal. It is so deeply established that any challenge or rigorous examination of its repercussions when put into practice is essentially forbidden. What the concept implies, of course, is that all people equally contribute to the welfare, well being and progress of the people of the country as a whole. It also partially or wholly replaces the ideal of earning what a person acquires. This without question reduces the standard of personal performance and quality of living to the "lowest common denominator".


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Agon D. Onter wrote:
I agree entirely with Bradly’s post, above. Spiritual development is no guarantee against secular mediocrity. And democracy is a secular endeavor.


Hmm....doesn't democratic rule have spiritual overtones?

...Representative government is the divine ideal of self-government among nonperfect beings.... 45:7.3 (517.5)

,


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rick warren wrote:
Hmm....doesn't democratic rule have spiritual overtones?


It's also the right way to do even the wrong thing. If the universe has a "right way" to do something, then whatever it is, it must be in line with the Father's will.

(802.2) 71:2.8 The measure of the advance of society is directly determined by the degree to which public opinion can control personal behavior and state regulation through nonviolent expression. The really civilized government had arrived when public opinion was clothed with the powers of personal franchise. Popular elections may not always decide things rightly, but they represent the right way even to do a wrong thing. Evolution does not at once produce superlative perfection but rather comparative and advancing practical adjustment.

Even evolution itself is described as democratic:

(179.11) 15:11.1 It is on such worlds as Uversa that the beings representative of the autocracy of perfection and the democracy of evolution meet face to face.

Democracy is a principle that allows for the salvation of all:

(1049.1) 95:5.13 The teaching of immortality for all men was too advanced for the Egyptians. Only kings and the rich were promised a resurrection; therefore did they so carefully embalm and preserve their bodies in tombs against the day of judgment. But the democracy of salvation and resurrection as taught by Ikhnaton eventually prevailed, even to the extent that the Egyptians later believed in the survival of dumb animals.

Global democratic government appears to be the Father's will for the planet:

(1489.3) 134:5.12 Peace will not come to Urantia until every so-called sovereign nation surrenders its power to make war into the hands of a representative government of all mankind. Political sovereignty is innate with the peoples of the world. When all the peoples of Urantia create a world government, they have the right and the power to make such a government SOVEREIGN; and when such a representative or democratic world power controls the world’s land, air, and naval forces, peace on earth and good will among men can prevail — but not until then.

If democracy is the Father's will, then even in secular endeavors the Father's will is being done. All work by a faith-son is sacred, even if working in a secular pursuit.

(1732:4) 155:6.11 Never forget there is only one adventure which is more satisfying and thrilling than the attempt to discover the will of the living God, and that is the supreme experience of honestly trying to do that divine will. And fail not to remember that the will of God can be done in any earthly occupation. Some callings are not holy and others secular. All things are sacred in the lives of those who are spirit led; that is, subordinated to truth, ennobled by love, dominated by mercy, and restrained by fairness— justice. The spirit which my Father and I shall send into the world is not only the Spirit of Truth but also the spirit of idealistic beauty.


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rick warren wrote:
Agon D. Onter wrote:
I agree entirely with Bradly’s post, above. Spiritual development is no guarantee against secular mediocrity. And democracy is a secular endeavor.


Hmm....doesn't democratic rule have spiritual overtones?

...Representative government is the divine ideal of self-government among nonperfect beings.... 45:7.3 (517.5)

,


Not according to the quote, no. Are there not Divine ideals and patterns for material and morontial realities including secular organization and expression of group will?

But a good point.... the material world is also a Divine expression and the claim that everything non-spiritual is mediocre is simplistic and a little silly and misses the point entirely. The idea that religion and the religious are not mediocre is also blind. Mediocrity exists in both the sacred and non-sacred (secular) realms of life and both realms exist at the material, morontial, and spirit levels of reslity.


Last edited by fanofVan on Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:10 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: DANGERS OF DEMOCRACY
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katroofjebus wrote:
rick warren wrote:
Hmm....doesn't democratic rule have spiritual overtones?


It's also the right way to do even the wrong thing. If the universe has a "right way" to do something, then whatever it is, it must be in line with the Father's will.

(802.2) 71:2.8 The measure of the advance of society is directly determined by the degree to which public opinion can control personal behavior and state regulation through nonviolent expression. The really civilized government had arrived when public opinion was clothed with the powers of personal franchise. Popular elections may not always decide things rightly, but they represent the right way even to do a wrong thing. Evolution does not at once produce superlative perfection but rather comparative and advancing practical adjustment.

Even evolution itself is described as democratic:

(179.11) 15:11.1 It is on such worlds as Uversa that the beings representative of the autocracy of perfection and the democracy of evolution meet face to face.

Democracy is a principle that allows for the salvation of all:

(1049.1) 95:5.13 The teaching of immortality for all men was too advanced for the Egyptians. Only kings and the rich were promised a resurrection; therefore did they so carefully embalm and preserve their bodies in tombs against the day of judgment. But the democracy of salvation and resurrection as taught by Ikhnaton eventually prevailed, even to the extent that the Egyptians later believed in the survival of dumb animals.

Global democratic government appears to be the Father's will for the planet:

(1489.3) 134:5.12 Peace will not come to Urantia until every so-called sovereign nation surrenders its power to make war into the hands of a representative government of all mankind. Political sovereignty is innate with the peoples of the world. When all the peoples of Urantia create a world government, they have the right and the power to make such a government SOVEREIGN; and when such a representative or democratic world power controls the world’s land, air, and naval forces, peace on earth and good will among men can prevail — but not until then.

If democracy is the Father's will, then even in secular endeavors the Father's will is being done. All work by a faith-son is sacred, even if working in a secular pursuit.

(1732:4) 155:6.11 Never forget there is only one adventure which is more satisfying and thrilling than the attempt to discover the will of the living God, and that is the supreme experience of honestly trying to do that divine will. And fail not to remember that the will of God can be done in any earthly occupation. Some callings are not holy and others secular. All things are sacred in the lives of those who are spirit led; that is, subordinated to truth, ennobled by love, dominated by mercy, and restrained by fairness— justice. The spirit which my Father and I shall send into the world is not only the Spirit of Truth but also the spirit of idealistic beauty.


Thanks for the comprehensive answer. Can't find a flaw in it, and see hope.



,


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fanofVan wrote:
rick warren wrote:
Agon D. Onter wrote:
I agree entirely with Bradly’s post, above. Spiritual development is no guarantee against secular mediocrity. And democracy is a secular endeavor.


Hmm....doesn't democratic rule have spiritual overtones?

...Representative government is the divine ideal of self-government among nonperfect beings.... 45:7.3 (517.5)

,


Not according to the quote, no. Are there not Divine ideals and patterns for material and morontial realities including secular organization and expression of group will?

But a good point.... the material world is also a Divine expression and the claim that everything non-spiritual is mediocre is simplistic and a little silly and misses the point entire. The idea that religion and the religious are not mediocre is also blind. Mediocrity exists in both the sacred and non-sacred (secular) realms of life and both realms exist at the material, morontial, and spirit levels of reality.



Thanks. Good and ponder-worthy points.

.


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