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 Post subject: Squabbling
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Squabbling

Squabble: verb
squabbled; squabbling\ ˈskwä-b(ə-)liŋ \
Definition of squabble: to quarrel noisily and usually over petty matters

Apparently in the matters of the FER, squabbling is currently the norm, at least in this forum, to engage in much squabbling, much to the dismay of those who are watching on the sidelines.

What is sight it must be, as the causal FER-curious type scans the posts here, to see such weighty matters involving the Universe of Universes, human survival and the life and teachings of an actual Son of God, degenerate pretty much always nowadays, into such petty arguments.

We are all guilty of this, to some degree. Therefore I am offering a personal vow for my posts here.

If someone says something I disagree with, even vehemently, I will not stoop to denigrate them. If the comment is so egregious that it cannot stand, (like the dude who prays for the destruction of the west coast of the United States) I will rebuke, mildly, and only once. Tit for tat’s will be ignored, and this will be very hard for me as I am as passionate about the teachings of this document as anyone here.

This will be real work for me, but I’m gonna give a try. Anyone with me?


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 Post subject: Re: Squabbling
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alwilliams767 wrote:
Anyone with me?


Yes. I'm all on board with you. Unfortunately I had to block a squabbler because of the incessant verbal abuse without apology. It has made a huge difference for me but I can understand where others might think it is a cop-out.

Not to quibble, but the only problem I see is with the definition of squabble, a squabbler apparently does not think some matters are petty, even though others might think they are. I don't know how you get around that. Perhaps we should all pray for self-awareness, the ability to see ourselves as others see us? And when someone points out a behavior problem, perhaps the offender might take some time to self-reflect on the issue rather than striking back and doubling down? It seems like a reasonable request to me, how about you?

alwilliams, if you ever see me squabbling over petty matters, please bring it to my attention. I would be grateful. We all get passionate and want other people to understand our thinking, but if I ever cross the line please point it out. It would be a friendly gesture in my eyes. Sometimes in a fit of passion you don't recognize when you've gone too far until it's too late. If I ever do that I would appreciate the opportunity to apologize and ask for forgiveness.

Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Squabbling
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You're better off blocking that person otherwise what is going to happen, and I have seen this before, they will hijack the thread, troll it to the point that admins lock it. I think this is the tactic chosen by a couple participants, and it appears to be effective. If they cannot force their opinion on you, they will destroy the thread so that others cannot participate on it.

alwilliams767 wrote:
Squabbling

Squabble: verb
squabbled; squabbling\ ˈskwä-b(ə-)liŋ \
Definition of squabble: to quarrel noisily and usually over petty matters

Apparently in the matters of the FER, squabbling is currently the norm, at least in this forum, to engage in much squabbling, much to the dismay of those who are watching on the sidelines.

What is sight it must be, as the causal FER-curious type scans the posts here, to see such weighty matters involving the Universe of Universes, human survival and the life and teachings of an actual Son of God, degenerate pretty much always nowadays, into such petty arguments.

We are all guilty of this, to some degree. Therefore I am offering a personal vow for my posts here.

If someone says something I disagree with, even vehemently, I will not stoop to denigrate them. If the comment is so egregious that it cannot stand, (like the dude who prays for the destruction of the west coast of the United States) I will rebuke, mildly, and only once. Tit for tat’s will be ignored, and this will be very hard for me as I am as passionate about the teachings of this document as anyone here.

This will be real work for me, but I’m gonna give a try. Anyone with me?

_________________
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 Post subject: Re: Squabbling
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brooklyn_born wrote:
You're better off blocking that person otherwise what is going to happen, and I have seen this before, they will hijack the thread, troll it to the point that admins lock it. I think this is the tactic chosen by a couple participants, and it appears to be effective. If they cannot force their opinion on you, they will destroy the thread so that others cannot participate on it.


I did that but a perfectly good thread got locked anyway. I had much more to say on the topic but am forced to suffer because of the behavior of another. I don't think I'll ever understand why everyone has to be punished when one person misbehaves. I think that's the way of this world though. Apparently everyone must be treated equally. But I'll tell you, back in the late '40's when I was growing up, if I did something wrong my father spanked me and me alone. He did not demand all his kids line up for a spanking. (Not that I condone spanking, but I do condone discipline.)

Anyway, thanks for the advice.


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 Post subject: Re: Squabbling
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That is terrible! I am sorry that that had happened to your thread. Mind boggling *smh* You know I see this behavior throughout social media, regardless as to religion and faith. There is something about being behind a computer; you get to act belligerent and antisocial, behaviors you'd normally suppress in real time. I guess the web technology is a two edge sword.



katroofjebus wrote:
brooklyn_born wrote:
You're better off blocking that person otherwise what is going to happen, and I have seen this before, they will hijack the thread, troll it to the point that admins lock it. I think this is the tactic chosen by a couple participants, and it appears to be effective. If they cannot force their opinion on you, they will destroy the thread so that others cannot participate on it.


I did that but a perfectly good thread got locked anyway. I had much more to say on the topic but am forced to suffer because of the behavior of another. I don't think I'll ever understand why everyone has to be punished when one person misbehaves. I think that's the way of this world though. Apparently everyone must be treated equally. But I'll tell you, back in the late '40's when I was growing up, if I did something wrong my father spanked me and me alone. He did not demand all his kids line up for a spanking. (Not that I condone spanking, but I do condone discipline.)

Anyway, thanks for the advice.

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Last edited by brooklyn_born on Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:03 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Squabbling
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Nice pity party you got going here. But I think I'll pass.

Quote:
159:3.11 (1766.7) Teach all believers to avoid leaning upon the insecure props of false sympathy. You cannot develop strong characters out of the indulgence of self-pity; honestly endeavor to avoid the deceptive influence of mere fellowship in misery. Extend sympathy to the brave and courageous while you withhold overmuch pity from those cowardly souls who only halfheartedly stand up before the trials of living. Offer not consolation to those who lie down before their troubles without a struggle. Sympathize not with your fellows merely that they may sympathize with you in return.


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 Post subject: Re: Squabbling
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alwilliams767 wrote:
Squabbling

Squabble: verb
squabbled; squabbling\ ˈskwä-b(ə-)liŋ \
Definition of squabble: to quarrel noisily and usually over petty matters

Apparently in the matters of the FER, squabbling is currently the norm, at least in this forum, to engage in much squabbling, much to the dismay of those who are watching on the sidelines.

What is sight it must be, as the causal FER-curious type scans the posts here, to see such weighty matters involving the Universe of Universes, human survival and the life and teachings of an actual Son of God, degenerate pretty much always nowadays, into such petty arguments.

We are all guilty of this, to some degree. Therefore I am offering a personal vow for my posts here.

If someone says something I disagree with, even vehemently, I will not stoop to denigrate them. If the comment is so egregious that it cannot stand, (like the dude who prays for the destruction of the west coast of the United States) I will rebuke, mildly, and only once. Tit for tat’s will be ignored, and this will be very hard for me as I am as passionate about the teachings of this document as anyone here.

This will be real work for me, but I’m gonna give a try. Anyone with me?


So Al....do you find the matters here "petty"? I see you have the eager support of 2 of the more egregious perpetrators. Ironically humorous. I of course am also guilty. But I do not find these matters petty or trivial...required for a squabble. But I do confess to squabbling....but there's far more to it....
debates (plural noun)

a formal discussion on a particular topic in a public meeting or legislative assembly, in which opposing arguments are put forward.

synonyms:

discussion · exchange of views · discourse · parley · argument · dispute · wrangle · altercation · war of words · arguing · argumentation · wrangling · sparring · disputation · dissension · disagreement · controversy · contention · conflict · disharmony · negotiations · talks · dialogue · comment · interest · confab · rap session · velitation · contestation

an argument about a particular subject, especially one in which many people are involved.


synonyms:

argument · debate · quarrel · wrangle · squabble · altercation · dispute · disputation · war of words · contretemps · misunderstanding · discord · strife · conflict · bickering · sparring · contention · dissension · disharmony · falling-out · tiff · barney · set-to · shouting/slanging match · spat · ding-dong · row · afters · rammy

VERB

debates (third person present) · debated (past tense) · debated (past participle) · debating(present participle)

argue about (a subject), especially in a formal manner.


synonyms:

discuss · confer about · talk over · talk through · talk about · exchange views on · exchange views about · thrash out · argue · argue about · argue the pros and cons of · dispute · wrangle over · bandy words concerning · contend over · contest · controvert · moot · kick around · bat around · altercate



My last outburst and blast at Stephen's misrepresentation of my post is most unfortunate and indefensible. Exasperation got the best of me and maryjo locked the topic before I could edit. My bad.

But for kat and BB to be the complainants here is rich indeed.

I will join your pledge Al to sweeten my objections to that I find contrary to that which we study here....but there's been plenty of that recently.


Last edited by fanofVan on Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:20 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Squabbling
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brooklyn_born wrote:
That is terrible! I am sorry that that had happened to your thread.


It was actually your thread, and a very good one too. I was very much hoping to continue the discussion. Perhaps some other time. Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Squabbling
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Apparently in the matters of the FER, squabbling is currently the norm, at least in this forum, to engage in much squabbling, much to the dismay of those who are watching on the sidelines.

What is sight it must be, as the causal FER-curious type scans the posts here, to see such weighty matters involving the Universe of Universes, human survival and the life and teachings of an actual Son of God, degenerate pretty much always nowadays, into such petty arguments.


Yes...the arguments ARE petty, Al. And I know you did not mean to imply that the "weighty matters" we all discuss here are petty at all. Weighty is exactly what they are, but the squabbling IS petty. And it would be good if everyone here could grasp the importance of these discussions that are seen by many curious visitors who do not participate. I thank you for your pledge...

Underlying all of the teachings of The Urantia Book we find the themes of love, goodness, tolerance, hope, and of faith. And there are other "intangibles" that might hopefully guide our interactions with one another. Certainly, the teachings of our Master, Jesus, should inspire us to do our best and be our best. Underneath it all, we are all ennobled sons of God, although many times, our nobility is tarnished here by the disrespectful pettiness that you, and others, observe.

Some of us seem to exhibit a deep-seated distrust of others. When we assume bad motive, that is usually what we see because we expect and look for it, even when it is not apparent to anyone else. The Master asked us to trust one another. And on this forum we need to assume the best, not the worst, of our fellows.

The rules of the forum are very simple. Among them, everyone is enjoined to avoid personal attacks. As soon as that happens, ideas are lost, discussion is halted, and general chaos ensues as accusation is met with defense.

One simple technique that might be helpful is the following: if someone posts something that you find you want to challenge or address, it is easy to separate the idea from the person by simply quoting the idea, statement, belief, etc. itself, without ascribing its authorship. This way, it is the idea that is discussed - not the person who presents the idea.

We have to get away from this personality issue, unless we aim to lift one another up. If we can't do that, and start policing ourselves like grown-ups, locked topics will be the result.


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 Post subject: Re: Squabbling
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I am very keen to discuss this topic and again confess my own misbehavior and poor deportment which has been very counterproductive to topical reflection and agreement.

I do not find the arguments petty at all. Certainly some of the discourse has been...mine included. Those who pretend innocence here and point fingers remind me to be less self defensive and to take my self less seriously and to objectively consider my own transgressions as I see how immature it is to do otherwise.

The arguments here are real and important and strike deep into the teachings of the Revelation and test our understanding of universe realities which the Revelation is given to reduce confusions and eliminate errors. But many here post claims and beliefs which defy the UB and generate confusions and perpetuate errors. Shall the students here be silent then in the name of peace to allow the perpetuation of endless falsehoods posted here?

Consider....recently the following claims have been made by a single poster, claims of belief seeking confirmations in the UB and this community, which no one but the poster and belief holder has supported and for which much text has been offered by several posters to refute it, including the mod here. My question is are these petty issues? which should not find objection? and can someone truly claim that those discussions were mere squabbles? or are the claims and issues truly important and should compel detailed consideration and refutation?

Each of these has been its own topic of discussion, several have been locked...not for the same reason either.

1. There are rebel angels on Urantia which can and are invading the minds of people.

2. Thought Adjusters can and have and do abandon souls and minds of mortals here on-planet of birth and at the end of the death slumber....irreversibly/permanently.

3. Such abandoned souls still wake up on the Mansion Worlds and wander about subject to invasion and takeover by evil spirits.

4. Self annihilation and erasure is only about the loss of personality...but the soul survives without personality - so, souls can survive loss of TA and personality and be taken over by evil spirits.

5. Numerology is true and is supported in the UB.

6. The more we align our will with God's the less and less free will we have until finally we have none at all. We must abandon our own free will to act in God's will...it is one or the other and cannot be both.

Each of these beliefs and declarations have been vigorously defended regardless of the text provided demonstrating the direct contradictions each declaration generates. But this is not really the problem, the real problem are the endless claims that the UB verifies and supports these beliefs and declarations. This person declares all opinions to be equal and so refuses to engage in honest discussion or book study of the teachings we study here....but declares all disagreement to be personal attack and disagreeable squabble. Hmmmm…… That's one way to look at it. Especially when one's beliefs contradict that which is hoped to verify such beliefs.

These are petty issues?? No they are not.

It seems to me there is a real tendency here to not engage such posts and claims at all.

I really like Maryjo's advice posted above and will attempt to implement it immediately:

"One simple technique that might be helpful is the following: if someone posts something that you find you want to challenge or address, it is easy to separate the idea from the person by simply quoting the idea, statement, belief, etc. itself, without ascribing its authorship. This way, it is the idea that is discussed - not the person who presents the idea."

Thanks to all!! Especially those who drive discussion and research and reflection and study forward!! 8)

I am, perhaps, the chief example lately of failing to apply this technique and standard. It is a good recommendation. I'll certainly try to honor it.

Thanks to all sincere students here who share a passion to learn from the Papers and share that learned with others. That is the purpose of this study group...and I regret all that I have done and do which distracts and fails to support that purpose. I hope to be a positive and contributing member of every group dynamic of which I am a member....especially this one.


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 Post subject: Re: Squabbling
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Sorry, Al.

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Quote:
159:3.11 (1766.7) Teach all believers to avoid leaning upon the insecure props of false sympathy. You cannot develop strong characters out of the indulgence of self-pity; honestly endeavor to avoid the deceptive influence of mere fellowship in misery. Extend sympathy to the brave and courageous while you withhold overmuch pity from those cowardly souls who only halfheartedly stand up before the trials of living. Offer not consolation to those who lie down before their troubles without a struggle. Sympathize not with your fellows merely that they may sympathize with you in return.


Thanks for that Agondonter. Maybe there is always something of value to be learned or gained in situations where value is not easy to discern.


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The fact is, the discussions and disagreements we have here on the forum are not all that different from those the apostles and disciples of Jesus had. These topics are not easy; and we can see from the way Jesus interacted with the apostles and evangelists that he did not hesitate to correct their misunderstandings. In paper 148 alone there are numerous examples.

Quote:
148:4.7 (1660.6) “You are confused, Thomas, by the doctrines of the Greeks and the errors of the Persians. You do not understand the relationships of evil and sin because you view mankind as beginning on earth with a perfect Adam and rapidly degenerating, through sin, to man’s present deplorable estate. But why do you refuse to comprehend the meaning of the record which discloses how Cain, the son of Adam, went over into the land of Nod and there got himself a wife? And why do you refuse to interpret the meaning of the record which portrays the sons of God finding wives for themselves among the daughters of men?


Quote:
148:4.10 (1661.1) “Thomas, have you not read about this in the Scriptures, where it is written: ‘You are the children of the Lord your God.’ ,,,,


Quote:
148:5.5 (1662.2) “But, Nathaniel, there is much in the Scriptures which would have instructed you if you had only read with discernment. …..


Quote:
148:6.2 (1662.4) “My son, you do not comprehend the meaning of adversity or the mission of suffering. Have you not read that masterpiece of Semitic literature—the Scripture story of the afflictions of Job?....


And how did the apostles react to these corrections and remonstrations? Did they cover their ears and sing 'la, la la' so as not to hear anything that was not consistent with their own understanding? Did they tell Jesus to stop asking them if they have read the scriptures? Did they report Jesus to the authorities because he had hurt their feelings?

Here is how John reacted after the last quote above, about the meaning of suffering.


Quote:
148:6.12 (1664.4) John pondered these sayings in his heart for many days. His entire afterlife was markedly changed as a result of this conversation with the Master in the garden, and he did much, in later times, to cause the other apostles to change their viewpoints regarding the source, nature, and purpose of commonplace human afflictions. But John never spoke of this conference until after the Master had departed.


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 Post subject: Re: Squabbling
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alwilliams767 wrote:


Apparently in the matters of the FER, squabbling is currently the norm, at least in this forum, to engage in much squabbling, much to the dismay of those who are watching on the sidelines.

What is sight it must be, as the causal FER-curious type scans the posts here, to see such weighty matters involving the Universe of Universes, human survival and the life and teachings of an actual Son of God, degenerate pretty much always nowadays, into such petty arguments.


Al - I hate to start a squabble - :biggrin: :wink: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: - but I got to wondering where you've been the past 8 years that I've been here with all the historical record of discourse and discord I remember over the years. So many topics started by UB haters and those who come here to convert and save us heathens and the one who called himself Caligastia and remember Louis, who over 7 years was booted off 4 times with 4 different names for being so contentious and personal and mean spirited (MannyC, JohhnyBones, toto, loucol - all the same poster!) and there were those here to argue, quite vociferously for reincarnation and pet heaven and alien abductions and rebel angels raping humans and celestial coverups for heavenly corruption and the ongoing rebellion and end of times and armaggedon to come??

Surely you remember? I perused your posting history, older and longer than my own by 4 years, to see if it were more peaceful and brotherly between 2008 and 2012 and you know what?? Not even close. You have given a good accord of yourself in objecting to falsehood and guiding discussion into truth. Indeed I have researched and read many topics from the very first days of TruthBook and I have not yet found this golden age you and Maryjo and others here seem to remember or aspire to. It simply has never been true here at TruthBook. I'm not even sure its a good or legitimate ideal.

This is not a social tea club. It's a classroom. We are here to learn a specific content of a specific book. That book has enemies. Many who attend here are intent and persistent in their efforts to disrupt the classroom and the study of the UB....contention is their very purpose and motive and agenda. Disruption is their cause and purpose! Maryjo says we should presume good intentions by all who attend here. Really??!! The record does not bear out such an expectation as realistic. She says we are not to distrust motives...not even after motive and agenda is clearly demonstrated over dozens or hundreds of posts by those who persistently contradict and misrepresent the UB? Not even then, eh?

The forum rules do not say we are to assume the best in people. The UB says we should look for the best in people, true. And how long do we assume the best when evidence of ulterior motive is demonstrated? Are we not also to be as wise as serpents as well as innocent as doves? A difficult ideal itself. Dovishness is not by itself any ideal at all so far as I can tell.

Many who attend here come for validation of preconceptions which are not to be found in the UB and who do not respond well when that reality is pointed out...some students cannot shake their prejudice and love of their own beliefs. Such ones attend here now and seemingly will always be among us...unsuccessfully seeking proofs and confirmations and twisting and tormenting the text in contortionist acrobatics to conform the teachings to prior beliefs.

True, some may and do, and I certainly have also, gone too far. It is unfortunate. But we are human and students and tadpoles after all. Is it right and just and helpful to judge us by ideals that have never been reached here before? Those who avoid conflict merely to avoid conflict do not reflect ANY UB centered ideal. Ideals, limits, boundaries, time outs, mod interventions...all are helpful in staying focused and moving forward in reading, study, discovery, discussion, and understanding of the Urantia Papers. So is disagreement, conflict, debate, and perseverance in the face of error, falsehood, misrepresentation, ignorance, and prejudice.

I noticed Al, in reviewing your own posting record here, that you have not been so shy yourself this past decade+ in engaging in arguments with others in many topics and discussions. Here's one of my favorites I found from 2 years ago:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5371

I think truth will always need champions who do not shrink aside in the face of conflict but will stand their ground and make sure that this Revelation is heard with its own words and voice and not allowed to be trifled with and contradicted by false claims and trivialized by those who disbelieve it and disagree with it and hope to cast dispersion and doubts upon it in this classroom of students - especially those on the sidelines and those new to the text!! Shall we allow those who do not understand or appreciate the UB to just say whatever they will while we silently provide our tacit acquiescense and agreement by our agreeable silence?

I hope not.

Sometimes the best someone has is not yet as good as we hope or idealize...what then did Jesus do? Rebuke and criticize and demean and remove those who disappoint us from the group? If we all do the best we can and all need to improve, then some occasional bad behavior by humans around here should maybe not be such a big deal?? It is not the end of the world. It presents opportunity for improvement, reversion humor, reconciliation, and regrouping and rebooting. We all take some things too seriously I think. Sideline readers here will perhaps discover how human are the students of the UB after all.

These comments are not offered as any type of excuse for my own inadequacies and bad behaviors and lack of courtesy and displays of belligerence and other failures of decorum I have committed. I can, from time to time, lose my humor and patience, and give expression to frustration in ways which are wrong and embarrassing. Such failures will not deter me from study, sharing, attending, and participating here. I learn. I have much still to learn.

I noticed something else reviewing your posts Al....we seldom disagree on much!!! :wink: :biggrin: :!: :idea: 8)

Your friend and in good humor,

Bradly


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To answer your question: I miss nodamanav. Looking back on that conversation, he was one of the many people whom You pushed him away, Bradley. Certainly your intention to provide a unique interpretation of tUB is good, but the way that you force "its" message is too much for others.

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