Urantia Book Forum

Urantia Book Discussion Board : Study Group
It is currently Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:19 pm +0000

All times are UTC - 7 hours




Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 183 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 ... 13  Next
Author Message
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:16 pm +0000
Posts: 1120
Location: Nanticoke NY
fanofVan wrote:

There is no such thing as potential existentialism...a contradiction in terms.


So what I actually wrote was "existential personality", which is the supernal potential of the actual personality of man (if joined to the Fragment). Man, as an existential spirit, is what is held in substance by the memory-transcript of the Thought Adjuster. However, I point to Michael, who is now like an existential Father of Nebadon, who is the actuality of Deity in the maximum Urantian creature comprehension. Maybe you can discover your existential nature, your true potential as a spirit personality.

katroofjebus wrote:
Our Master Michael is a revelation of the Supreme and his spirit lives in each one of us, guiding us in our decision-making by revealing truth, beauty and goodness, the love of the Father. The will of the Supreme is a unification of the diversified wills of Paradise Deities revealed by the Supreme Creators, or Master Michaels and they reveal it to their creatures.
[/quote][/quote]

Yes, incredible. So how are the choices of man recognised in the life of the Supreme Being, and how is it that in the transcript of the human individual that reveals the life of the Supreme Being in man? (especially from that perspective of the First Source and Center?)

_________________
to the Underlaying Unity of All Life so that the Voice of Intuition may guide Us closer to Our Common Keeper


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:11 pm +0000
Posts: 932
SEla_Kelly wrote:
In other words, how do you know that any human choice, is truly the reflection of that individual's personality, but also a reflection of his existential personality?


Most of us want to know this: How do my decisions reflect the existential Thought Adjuster's will? Is the character of my personality becoming more like the real me who lives in my soul by the decisions I make? One thing we're told is if we find ourselves striving to be Godlike, it means God has already found us and is the source of that very striving. References: (1193.5) 108:6.6 and (1212.5) 110:7.4 and (1440.2) 130:8.2 and (2078.2) 195:6.16


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 3951
SEla_Kelly wrote:
fanofVan wrote:

There is no such thing as potential existentialism...a contradiction in terms.


So what I actually wrote was "existential personality", which is the supernal potential of the actual personality of man (if joined to the Fragment). Man, as an existential spirit, is what is held in substance by the memory-transcript of the Thought Adjuster. However, I point to Michael, who is now like an existential Father of Nebadon, who is the actuality of Deity in the maximum Urantian creature comprehension. Maybe you can discover your existential nature, your true potential as a spirit personality.


No Stephen...I can read just fine thank you.

You posed the question: "In other words, how do you know that any human choice, is truly the reflection of that individual's personality, but also a reflection of his existential personality?"

I then asked you and commented: "What is existential personality? Not mine I do not think and only mine makes my decisions and freewill choices."

You answered: "Existential personality is the potential for being & action, for each sentient individual but not in their current modalities of existences rather as expressed on the Central Universe, God's Realm."


And I said: "There is no such thing as potential existentialism...a contradiction in terms."

You are clearly claiming human personality has the potential for existential personality and/or already has existential personality. Both claims are clearly false and fictitious inventions of your own mind in complete contradiction of the UB.

I do not lose my personality upon fusion with my Adjuster Stephen. The Adjuster is pre-personal and so does not have an existential personality Stephen...and will not. There are only 3 of those. Can you name them yet? I posted that text. No existential personality had a beginning. And here you are still claiming the same falsehood as if you had not already been corrected!!!!

You claim above that man is an existential spirit. What????!!!! Text please!!!!

Michael is also NOT an existential personality Stephen. And for mortals with TA's, neither is Michael "the actuality of Deity in the maximum Urantian creature comprehension." God the Father is our highest actuality of Deity of maximum creature comprehension (if I understand what you mean by your claim). We are unique in this regard in Nebadon as I understand the tadpole God indwelt nature.

We cannot "discover your existential nature, your true potential as a spirit personality." We do not have an existential nature Stephen and never will and we cannot discover our potential until we realize, actualize, and fulfill our potential. So you do not and cannot discover your future being and your personality will remain unchanged during your entire career and ascension Stephen!!! Material mortal, morontial being, and spirit being....all 3 levels of existence will all share that entire spectrum and adventure and transformative experience WITH THE SAME PERSONALITY!!

Get it??? Yet??? You are just making stuff up. It is surprising and disappointing that Kat keeps encouraging these false claims with her agreeable endorsements. Every post of yours is littered with falsehoods which contradict the UB and you simply do not care and neither does kat apparently. Amazing!

Please answer the rest of the questions posed too. Simply ignoring honest and pertinent questions merely destroys your credibility Stephen. It's as if you have no answer and you are confirming the falseness of your declarations and claims. Don't say it if you don't mean it and can't explain it AND can't document it by the text. Thank you.

Now....what is the transcript of the human individual? And how do humans reveal the Supreme Being I wonder?

:roll:


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:11 pm +0000
Posts: 932
SEla_Kelly wrote:
So how are the choices of man recognised in the life of the Supreme Being


I think this reference explains that it happens through the agency of Creative Spirit/Divine Minister.

(1287.1) 117:5.10 How do these manifold circuits of cosmic ministry register the meanings, values, and facts of evolutionary experience in the Supreme? We are not exactly certain, but we believe that this registry takes place through the persons of the Supreme Creators of Paradise origin who are the immediate bestowers of these circuits of time and space. The mind-experience accumulations of the seven adjutant mind-spirits, in their ministry to the physical level of intellect, are a part of the local universe experience of the Divine Minister, and through this Creative Spirit they probably find registry in the mind of Supremacy. Likewise are mortal experiences with the Spirit of Truth and the Holy Spirit probably registered by similar techniques in the person of Supremacy.

SEla_Kelly wrote:
and how is it that in the transcript of the human individual that reveals the life of the Supreme Being in man?


The transcript is a record of those events in the human life which have spiritual significance. The events with spiritual significance are those that result from deciding to do the Father's will. They are events where the Adjuster's potential values gain meaning and become actualized in reality by free will. Essentially, they are the result of a creature-Creator relationship which results in fruit production.

(1285.4) 117:5.1 The great Supreme is the cosmic oversoul of the grand universe. In him the qualities and quantities of the cosmos do find their deity reflection; his deity nature is the mosaic composite of the total vastness of all creature-Creator nature throughout the evolving universes. And the Supreme is also an actualizing Deity embodying a creative will which embraces an evolving universe purpose.

Don't forget that the Supreme contains "causation in the physical world, self-consciousness in the intellectual world, and progressing selfhood in the spirit world" (1434:01) 130:4.2 The integration of all three of those reality levels become part of the soul and potentially part of the Supreme.

Also, the Supreme is a unification of all three members of the Trinity, not just the First Source and Center.

(115.5)10:7.3 The Supreme Being is something less and something other than the Trinity functioning in the finite universes; but within certain limits and during the present era of incomplete power-personalization, this evolutionary Deity does appear to reflect the attitude of the Trinity of Supremacy. The Father, Son, and Spirit do not personally function with the Supreme Being, but during the present universe age they collaborate with him as the Trinity. We understand that they sustain a similar relationship to the Ultimate. We often conjecture as to what will be the personal relationship between the Paradise Deities and God the Supreme when he has finally evolved, but we do not really know.

(240.7) 21:5.5 This experiential sovereignty is thus all-inclusive of the divinity of God the Sevenfold culminating in the Supreme Being. And the personal sovereignty of a sevenfold Son is like the future sovereignty of the sometime-to-be-completed Supreme Being, embracing as it does the fullest possible content of the power and authority of the Paradise Trinity manifestable within the time-space limits concerned.

(1171.7) 106:8.14 1. The Supreme. This is the deity consequence of the unity of the Paradise Trinity in experiential liaison with the Creator-Creative children of the Paradise Deities. The Supreme is the deity embodiment of the completion of the first stage of finite evolution.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 3951
katroofjebus wrote:
SEla_Kelly wrote:
In other words, how do you know that any human choice, is truly the reflection of that individual's personality, but also a reflection of his existential personality?


Most of us want to know this: How do my decisions reflect the existential Thought Adjuster's will? Is the character of my personality becoming more like the real me who lives in my soul by the decisions I make? One thing we're told is if we find ourselves striving to be Godlike, it means God has already found us and is the source of that very striving. References: (1193.5) 108:6.6 and (1212.5) 110:7.4 and (1440.2) 130:8.2 and (2078.2) 195:6.16



So the Thought Adjuster is existential? How so? Is each TA God? A most interesting question. I don't think so though. TA's have a beginning I think and are God's gift of himself but are not God himself but are more like conduits of connectivity, the circuitry of connection to mortal minds and to those celestial minds who become "humanized" later in their career as they ascend from time to the Corps of Finality. This would make a fascinating study of its own. Are the fragments of God also existential? The logical problem with such a truth would be that mortals who are definitely not existential become existential by fusion but no one may "become" existential...or without beginning. "I" have a beginning, therefor "I" can never become existential. Otherwise one claims pre-existence once again. A fallacy and falsehood.

Kat asks above: "Is the character of my personality becoming more like the real me who lives in my soul by the decisions I make?"

So I am not the real me? Isn't my personality me? Isn't that changeless? How then am I not yet me? Does not my soul also enjoy my personality? The same personality? Do I have 2 of them when soul is born? No. Do I have 3 or 2 personalities upon fusion? Nope. Hmmm.... Would the real me please stand up? Hahahahaha…...Silly rabbit.

Kat - it might help you to keep in mind that Stephen preaches human pre-existence. Lately he claims to be on his return journey to Paradise.

1:7.1 (31.1) When Jesus talked about “the living God,” he referred to a personal Deity—the Father in heaven. The concept of the personality of Deity facilitates fellowship; it favors intelligent worship; it promotes refreshing trustfulness. Interactions can be had between nonpersonal things, but not fellowship. The fellowship relation of father and son, as between God and man, cannot be enjoyed unless both are persons. Only personalities can commune with each other, albeit this personal communion may be greatly facilitated by the presence of just such an impersonal entity as the Thought Adjuster.

2:1.7 (34.6) And all this necessitates such arrangements for contact and communication with his manifold creatures as have been ordained, first, in the personalities of the Paradise Sons of God, who, although perfect in divinity, also often partake of the nature of the very flesh and blood of the planetary races, becoming one of you and one with you; thus, as it were, God becomes man, as occurred in the bestowal of Michael, who was called interchangeably the Son of God and the Son of Man. And second, there are the personalities of the Infinite Spirit, the various orders of the seraphic hosts and other celestial intelligences who draw near to the material beings of lowly origin and in so many ways minister to them and serve them. And third, there are the impersonal Mystery Monitors, Thought Adjusters, the actual gift of the great God himself sent to indwell such as the humans of Urantia, sent without announcement and without explanation. In endless profusion they descend from the heights of glory to grace and indwell the humble minds of those mortals who possess the capacity for God-consciousness or the potential therefor.

2:1.8 (35.1) In these ways and in many others, in ways unknown to you and utterly beyond finite comprehension, does the Paradise Father lovingly and willingly downstep and otherwise modify, dilute, and attenuate his infinity in order that he may be able to draw nearer the finite minds of his creature children. And so, through a series of personality distributions which are diminishingly absolute, the infinite Father is enabled to enjoy close contact with the diverse intelligences of the many realms of his far-flung universe.

5:0.1 (62.1) IF THE finite mind of man is unable to comprehend how so great and so majestic a God as the Universal Father can descend from his eternal abode in infinite perfection to fraternize with the individual human creature, then must such a finite intellect rest assurance of divine fellowship upon the truth of the fact that an actual fragment of the living God resides within the intellect of every normal-minded and morally conscious Urantia mortal. The indwelling Thought Adjusters are a part of the eternal Deity of the Paradise Father. Man does not have to go farther than his own inner experience of the soul’s contemplation of this spiritual-reality presence to find God and attempt communion with him.

5:0.2 (62.2) God has distributed the infinity of his eternal nature throughout the existential realities of his six absolute co-ordinates, but he may, at any time, make direct personal contact with any part or phase or kind of creation through the agency of his prepersonal fragments. And the eternal God has also reserved to himself the prerogative of bestowing personality upon the divine Creators and the living creatures of the universe of universes, while he has further reserved the prerogative of maintaining direct and parental contact with all these personal beings through the personality circuit.

WHAT A MYSTERY!!!!

1. Origin of Thought Adjusters

107:1.1 (1177.2) Since Thought Adjusters are of the essence of original Deity, no one may presume to discourse authoritatively upon their nature and origin; I can only impart the traditions of Salvington and the beliefs of Uversa; I can only explain how we regard these Mystery Monitors and their associated entities throughout the grand universe.

107:1.2 (1177.3) Though there are diverse opinions regarding the mode of the bestowal of Thought Adjusters, there exist no such differences concerning their origin; all are agreed that they proceed direct from the Universal Father, the First Source and Center. They are not created beings; they are fragmentized entities constituting the factual presence of the infinite God. Together with their many unrevealed associates, the Adjusters are undiluted and unmixed divinity, unqualified and unattenuated parts of Deity; they are of God, and as far as we are able to discern, they are God.

107:1.3 (1177.4) As to the time of their beginning separate existences apart from the absoluteness of the First Source and Center, we do not know; neither do we know their number. We know very little concerning their careers until they arrive on the planets of time to indwell human minds, but from that time on we are more or less familiar with their cosmic progressions up to and including the consummation of their triune destinies: attainment of personality by fusion with some mortal ascender, attainment of personality by fiat of the Universal Father, or liberation from the known assignments of Thought Adjusters.

107:1.4 (1177.5) Although we do not know, we presume that Adjusters are being constantly individualized as the universe enlarges, and as the candidates for Adjuster fusion increase in numbers. But it may be equally possible that we are in error in attempting to assign a numerical magnitude to the Adjusters; like God himself, these fragments of his unfathomable nature may be existentially infinite.

107:1.5 (1177.6) The technique of the origin of the Thought Adjusters is one of the unrevealed functions of the Universal Father. We have every reason to believe that none of the other absolute associates of the First Source and Center have aught to do with the production of Father fragments. Adjusters are simply and eternally the divine gifts; they are of God and from God, and they are like God.

107:1.6 (1177.7) In their relationship to fusion creatures they reveal a supernal love and spiritual ministry that is profoundly confirmative of the declaration that God is spirit. But there is much that takes place in addition to this transcendent ministry that has never been revealed to Urantia mortals. Neither do we fully understand just what really transpires when the Universal Father gives of himself to be a part of the personality of a creature of time. Nor has the ascending progression of the Paradise finaliters as yet disclosed the full possibilities inherent in this supernal partnership of man and God. In the last analysis, the Father fragments must be the gift of the absolute God to those creatures whose destiny encompasses the possibility of the attainment of God as absolute.


Last edited by fanofVan on Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:58 pm +0000, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 3951
SEla_Kelly wrote:
and how is it that in the transcript of the human individual that reveals the life of the Supreme Being in man?


Kat responds: The transcript is a record of those events in the human life which have spiritual significance. The events with spiritual significance are those that result from deciding to do the Father's will. They are events where the Adjuster's potential values gain meaning and become actualized in reality by free will. Essentially, they are the result of a creature-Creator relationship which results in fruit production.

Bradly here: Sorry kat but you didn't really answer the question. How does the transcript of the human reveal the life of the Supreme Being within man? Is there a life of the Supreme Being within man?

I certainly do agree with the truth of your post...it just doesn't address the actual question posted.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:16 pm +0000
Posts: 1120
Location: Nanticoke NY
Okay you say this "there is no existential reality". However, I point to the very idea that the Central Universe itself is existential and eternal in nature. Man has his existence, in union with the Adjuster, in all your sequencive mortal experiences, leading up to Paradise. That is the prepersonality value reserved by the First Source & Center, "an appartitioning of Trinitized Creature Destiny [tUB 22:7] for each individual," in terms of one man's moral duty to the grand universe. This is said to be true when human fathers direct their own doings towards the betterment of each individual with their given estates, and there are said also to be choices that do not reflect the wisdom of doing one's utmost towards the betterment of the world one finds themselves to inhabit, "in the likeness of mortal flesh".

_________________
to the Underlaying Unity of All Life so that the Voice of Intuition may guide Us closer to Our Common Keeper


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 3951
:-# :shock:


Last edited by fanofVan on Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:10 pm +0000, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 3951
SEla_Kelly wrote:
Okay you say this "there is no existential reality". However, I point to the very idea that the Central Universe itself is existential and eternal in nature. Man has his existence, in union with the Adjuster, in all your sequencive mortal experiences, leading up to Paradise. That is the prepersonality value reserved by the First Source & Center, "an appartitioning of Trinitized Creature Destiny [tUB 22:7] for each individual," in terms of one man's moral duty to the grand universe. This is said to be true when human fathers direct their own doings towards the betterment of each individual with their given estates, and there are said also to be choices that do not reflect the wisdom of doing one's utmost towards the betterment of the world one finds themselves to inhabit, "in the likeness of mortal flesh".


Stephen - I hope you will forgive me for my unrighteous outburst and name calling I posted here which Maryjo deleted at my request. I can offer no excuse. I apologize.

As to your post and claim that I said "there is no existential reality", I don't know why you might claim that I don't believe in the existential reality of Paradise and the Trinity. Did I not just post much text describing this fact?

What I said is there can be no potential existential personality as potential means a beginning of being...a creation or evolutionary beginning. The quotes I posted clearly tell us who and what is existential - those and that without beginning or end - which interestingly enough is far different than the humanized and dictionary definition. Perhaps that is the source of your misunderstanding?

Perhaps you recall this quote I posted:

0:9.5 (13.3) God the Supreme and God the Ultimate, now evolving in the experiential universes, are not existential—not past eternals, only future eternals, time-space-conditioned and transcendental-conditioned eternals. They are Deities of supreme, ultimate, and possibly supreme-ultimate endowments, but they have experienced historic universe origins. They will never have an end, but they do have personality beginnings. They are indeed actualizations of eternal and infinite Deity potentials, but they themselves are neither unqualifiedly eternal nor infinite.

So you see why "potential existentialism" is a contradiction of terms...there can be no such being or thing.

Those and that which are potential, or evolutionary, or actualizing cannot ever be without beginning or existential. Or is it your belief that we become God upon fusion and thusly our personalities become existential? An interesting assertion that should have significant text support if true. I look forward to that.

8) Bradly


Last edited by fanofVan on Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:51 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:11 pm +0000
Posts: 932
SEla_Kelly wrote:
Yes, incredible. So how are the choices of man recognised in the life of the Supreme Being, and how is it that in the transcript of the human individual that reveals the life of the Supreme Being in man? (especially from that perspective of the First Source and Center?)


There's much more to this, as I'm sure you already know. The soul is the son of both the Thought Adjuster's influence from the First Source and Center, or Universal Father, and the cosmic reaction of the Supreme, the Universal Mother. It is a literal truth that souls are sons of these two parents, therefore the life of the Supreme is within the soul of man.

(1288.4) 117:6.5   The morontia soul of an evolving mortal is really the son of the Adjuster action of the Universal Father and the child of the cosmic reaction of the Supreme Being, the Universal Mother. The mother influence dominates the human personality throughout the local universe childhood of the growing soul. The influence of the Deity parents becomes more equal after the Adjuster fusion and during the superuniverse career, but when the creatures of time begin the traversal of the central universe of eternity, the Father nature becomes increasingly manifest, attaining its height of finite manifestation upon the recognition of the Universal Father and the admission into the Corps of the Finality.

(1289.1) 117:6.8   All soul-evolving humans are literally the evolutionary sons of God the Father and God the Mother, the Supreme Being. But until such time as mortal man becomes soul-conscious of his divine heritage, this assurance of Deity kinship must be faith realized. Human life experience is the cosmic cocoon in which the universe endowments of the Supreme Being and the universe presence of the Universal Father (none of which are personalities) are evolving the morontia soul of time and the human-divine finaliter character of universe destiny and eternal service.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 3951
fanofVan wrote:
SEla_Kelly wrote:
fanofVan wrote:

There is no such thing as potential existentialism...a contradiction in terms.


So what I actually wrote was "existential personality", which is the supernal potential of the actual personality of man (if joined to the Fragment). Man, as an existential spirit, is what is held in substance by the memory-transcript of the Thought Adjuster. However, I point to Michael, who is now like an existential Father of Nebadon, who is the actuality of Deity in the maximum Urantian creature comprehension. Maybe you can discover your existential nature, your true potential as a spirit personality.


No Stephen...I can read just fine thank you.

You posed the question: "In other words, how do you know that any human choice, is truly the reflection of that individual's personality, but also a reflection of his existential personality?"

I then asked you and commented: "What is existential personality? Not mine I do not think and only mine makes my decisions and freewill choices."

You answered: "Existential personality is the potential for being & action, for each sentient individual but not in their current modalities of existences rather as expressed on the Central Universe, God's Realm."


And I said: "There is no such thing as potential existentialism...a contradiction in terms."

You are clearly claiming human personality has the potential for existential personality and/or already has existential personality. Both claims are clearly false and fictitious inventions of your own mind in complete contradiction of the UB.

I do not lose my personality upon fusion with my Adjuster Stephen. The Adjuster is pre-personal and so does not have an existential personality Stephen...and will not. There are only 3 of those. Can you name them yet? I posted that text. No existential personality had a beginning. And here you are still claiming the same falsehood as if you had not already been corrected!!!!

You claim above that man is an existential spirit. What????!!!! Text please!!!!

Michael is also NOT an existential personality Stephen. And for mortals with TA's, neither is Michael "the actuality of Deity in the maximum Urantian creature comprehension." God the Father is our highest actuality of Deity of maximum creature comprehension (if I understand what you mean by your claim). We are unique in this regard in Nebadon as I understand the tadpole God indwelt nature.

We cannot "discover your existential nature, your true potential as a spirit personality." We do not have an existential nature Stephen and never will and we cannot discover our potential until we realize, actualize, and fulfill our potential. So you do not and cannot discover your future being and your personality will remain unchanged during your entire career and ascension Stephen!!! Material mortal, morontial being, and spirit being....all 3 levels of existence will all share that entire spectrum and adventure and transformative experience WITH THE SAME PERSONALITY!!

Get it??? Yet??? You are just making stuff up. It is surprising and disappointing that Kat keeps encouraging these false claims with her agreeable endorsements. Every post of yours is littered with falsehoods which contradict the UB and you simply do not care and neither does kat apparently. Amazing!

Please answer the rest of the questions posed too. Simply ignoring honest and pertinent questions merely destroys your credibility Stephen. It's as if you have no answer and you are confirming the falseness of your declarations and claims. Don't say it if you don't mean it and can't explain it AND can't document it by the text. Thank you.

Now....what is the transcript of the human individual? And how do humans reveal the Supreme Being I wonder?

:roll:


Still waiting Stephen......


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:11 pm +0000
Posts: 932
SEla_Kelly wrote:
So what I actually wrote was "existential personality", which is the supernal potential of the actual personality of man (if joined to the Fragment).


I understand and what you say is true. The Thought Adjuster is an existential pre-personality who carries all the divine potentials of the character of individual man's personality. If the individual man makes decisions by free-will choice to identify with those potentials and then acts upon accordingly, he will eventually fuse with his existential partner, the Thought Adjuster. In this way experiential creatures become partners with existential Creators.

Here are the references which inform us that the Thought Adjuster is existential: (1181:3) 107:4.7 and (1111.6) 101:6.2 and (1179.1) 107:2.7 and (1185.3) 108:1.1

Here are the references which inform us that the Thought Adjuster is man's potential divine personality: (1199.3) 109:5.2 and (71.1) 5:6.6 and (141.1) 12:8.16

Fusion with the Thought Adjuster means fusion with his existential divine nature. The new individual personality, with a new name, is both experiential and existential, which incidentally is part of the evolution of the Supreme.

(1179.1) 107:2.7 6.Upon fusion with the ascending evolutionary soul, it appears that the Adjuster translates from the absolute existential level of the universe to the finite experiential level of functional association with an ascending personality. While retaining all of the character of the existential divine nature, a fused Adjuster becomes indissolubly linked with the ascending career of a surviving mortal.

(1111.6) 101:6.2 Throughout all religious experience, from its earliest inception on the material level up to the time of the attainment of full spirit status, the Adjuster is the secret of the personal realization of the reality of the existence of the Supreme; and this same Adjuster also holds the secrets of your faith in the transcendental attainment of the Ultimate. The experiential personality of evolving man, united to the Adjuster essence of the existential God, constitutes the potential completion of supreme existence and is inherently the basis for the superfinite eventuation of transcendental personality.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 3951
Interesting conclusions kat...but according to the text you referenced, this opinion of yours is still merely that and the quotes cited (but not posted for some reason) a do not offer definitive confirmation of your personal conclusions.

You referenced the quotes below which do not confirm your claim/belief that mortals become existential - however, I do find it an interesting paradox to consider - TA's have an origin and are created, they are an essence and fragment of the existential God, The First Source and Center - but nowhere do any of these quotes say that mortals or any other beings can become existential. Lots of assumptions required for that leap and conclusion I think. The TA's are fragments of past eternals but those fragments have an origin in time. Very interesting. Not conclusive to me.

107:4.7 (1181.3) Can you really realize the true significance of the Adjuster’s indwelling? Do you really fathom what it means to have an absolute fragment of the absolute and infinite Deity, the Universal Father, indwelling and fusing with your finite mortal natures? When mortal man fuses with an actual fragment of the existential Cause of the total cosmos, no limit can ever be placed upon the destiny of such an unprecedented and unimaginable partnership. In eternity, man will be discovering not only the infinity of the objective Deity but also the unending potentiality of the subjective fragment of this same God. Always will the Adjuster be revealing to the mortal personality the wonder of God, and never can this supernal revelation come to an end, for the Adjuster is of God and as God to mortal man.

101:6.2 (1111.6) Throughout all religious experience, from its earliest inception on the material level up to the time of the attainment of full spirit status, the Adjuster is the secret of the personal realization of the reality of the existence of the Supreme; and this same Adjuster also holds the secrets of your faith in the transcendental attainment of the Ultimate. The experiential personality of evolving man, united to the Adjuster essence of the existential God, constitutes the potential completion of supreme existence and is inherently the basis for the superfinite eventuation of transcendental personality.

(Please note that neither the Supreme or Ultimate are existential.)

107:2.7 (1179.1) 6. Fused Adjusters—finaliters—those who have become one with the ascending creatures of the superuniverses, the eternity partners of the time ascenders of the Paradise Corps of the Finality. Thought Adjusters ordinarily become fused with the ascending mortals of time, and with such surviving mortals they are registered in and out of Ascendington; they follow the course of ascendant beings. Upon fusion with the ascending evolutionary soul, it appears that the Adjuster translates from the absolute existential level of the universe to the finite experiential level of functional association with an ascending personality. While retaining all of the character of the existential divine nature, a fused Adjuster becomes indissolubly linked with the ascending career of a surviving mortal.

(Please note above that the TA's retain the "character" of the "nature" of God's existentialism. And please note below that each TA is "endowed" with existential "divinity" - existential being an adjective describing the form of divinity they are "endowed" with. Mortals are endowed with TA's but we are not TA's, we are endowed with freewill choice and personality and mind...and yet we are not those attributes either. God has endowed many aspects and attributes of himself to as many other beings as possible and yet none of those ARE God. We are endowed with the mind of the spirit, and yet we are not the spirit or the source of the endowment.

Whose personality is THE personality of a fused mortal? The mortal's. The mortal's personality does not become existential, or without beginning by fusion. Our personality has a beginning. The TA has a beginning. The act of fusion is a beginning. The TA is endowed with "the character of the existential divine nature" and upon fusion translates FROM the existential level TO the finite experiential level of being and reality. It appears to me that the opposite of what kat claims actually occurs. Just my opinion of course....but kat's declarative proclamation is too confident and certain in its claims IMO.) But for sure, the quotes cited by kat and actually posted by me may support but certainly do not clearly confirm kat's claims.

It is important to note here that Stephen is always attempting to prove pre-existence of mortals and soul. In this thread, he claims humans have "pre-personalities" (false) and that we later attain our "true personalities" (also false). Stephen has also claimed here that we must conform our will to do God's will...or that our will cannot be to do God's will without lessening our own freewill (also false)...that there are choices we "ought" to make or we cannot express God's will in our life.

BB started this topic originally to support his claim and belief that each person becomes less individualized and loses free will upon fusion and as we align our will with God...we lose our own identity and self individualization. We musy tread carefully here.

In reality, our spiritization and maturity and growing experiential wisdom automatically results in alignment with God's will - the more reality oriented we become, the more our freewill choices will reflect that reality. It is not at all what BB, Stephen, and now kat are portraying here. We do not bend our will when we submit our will, and we do not lessen it or compromise or conform our own will - our will conforms to, or more accurately, reflects our growing maturity and wisdom and experience and reality alignment!!! BIG DIFFERENCE!!!


108:1.1 (1185.3) When Adjusters are dispatched for mortal service from Divinington, they are identical in the endowment of existential divinity, but they vary in experiential qualities proportional to previous contact in and with evolutionary creatures. We cannot explain the basis of Adjuster assignment, but we conjecture that these divine gifts are bestowed in accordance with some wise and efficient policy of eternal fitness of adaptation to the indwelt personality. We do observe that the more experienced Adjuster is often the indweller of the higher type of human mind; human inheritance must therefore be a considerable factor in determining selection and assignment.

8)


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 3951
brooklyn_born wrote:
I am opening up this thread to piggyback off topic (click here): Do we lose free will as we become more spiritual? I think it is appropriate to have a specific thread for the purpose of exploring the notion of human will. Feel free to share your thoughts on this topic from the perspective of the revelations.

Will, Free Will, Will Power and CHOICE.


WILL is desire. FREE WILL is the freedom to desire. WILL POWER is potency of freedom to desire. CHOICE is expressing will or free will.

WILL is subject to conditions. FREE WILL is unconditional, relatively speaking. WILL POWER may or may not override condition placed on will, depending on its potency; the stronger the will power the more freely expressed, free will.

We choose how we express our free will. Will power determines whether or not the choice materializes.

When you choose to express the will of divinity, the desire is divine. It ---will of divinity--- is not yours. Divinity is Father's gifted to us through the agency of the Father fragment. Once the decision is made, and unless and until the mortal chooses to reengage its free will, that is, ability to desire something other than divine, will is no longer logically "free." You could say, it is "consecrated." Free will has been transformed into the Divine will.

Jesus tells us this in the following pronouncement:

Quote:
136:2.4 (1511.3)... Jesus, looking up to the near-by Adjuster, prayed... "Your will be done on earth


Jesus chose not to express his free will (possibly deciding not to undergo the bestowal career). Instead, he made the choice to put his free will aside by submitting it to God's will.


So the claim here has many inferences and insinuations and logical extensions of conclusion and presumption as to warrant more extensive consideration and discussion.

The sentence "Jesus chose not to express his free will (possibly deciding not to undergo the bestowal career)." is self contradictory.

Here the poster has declared that Jesus did not express his own free will by making a freewill choice - to undergo AND complete the bestowal career. The premise is indeed flawed. The proof of no choice is the evidence of the choice made? Come come.

As illogical and irrational as that claim may be, let us set it aside and proceed to consider the far more important and critical issue at hand....whose will was Michael exercising when he chose to come to Urantia and whose will was Jesus exercising as the Son of Man and then later as the Son of God while here on Urantia?

I think the main thrust of BB's questions have been adequately answered here by many posts and sufficient text that prove that freewill choices actually expand in number and nature as we become more mature, experienced, spiritized, and wise. We do not lose freewill but we increase freewill as we approach Paradise and finality. The evidence is clear.

But the question of Michael and Jesus has more nuance I think and should be considered separately. Why so?

First, let us clarify that Michael did not have a choice I do not think of whether to complete the 7 bestowals. All Paradise Sons who become Creator Sons are trained to and expected to complete the 7 bestowals to demonstrate their worthiness of ruling their own creation. I am unaware of any Creator Sons who refused their duty and their creator ministry to their own creations by completing the bestowal career!! This is the experiential means and method by which they gain absolute control over their creations and stabilize those universes. Please note below how individualized and unique is every Local Universe as a freewill expression of its Creator Son!

21:2.2 When a Creator Son departs from Paradise to embark upon the adventure of universe making, to become the head—virtually the God—of the local universe of his own organization, then, for the first time, he finds himself in intimate contact with, and in many respects dependent upon, the Third Source and Center. The Infinite Spirit, though abiding with the Father and the Son at the center of all things, is destined to function as the actual and effective helper of each Creator Son. Therefore is each Creator Son accompanied by a Creative Daughter of the Infinite Spirit, that being who is destined to become the Divine Minister, the Mother Spirit of the new local universe.

21:2.3 The departure of a Michael Son on this occasion forever liberates his creator prerogatives from the Paradise Sources and Centers, subject only to certain limitations inherent in the pre-existence of these Sources and Centers and to certain other antecedent powers and presences. Among these limitations to the otherwise all-powerful creator prerogatives of a local universe Father are the following:

1. Energy-matter is dominated by the Infinite Spirit. Before any new forms of things, great or small, may be created, before any new transformations of energy-matter may be attempted, a Creator Son must secure the consent and working co-operation of the Infinite Spirit.

2. Creature designs and types are controlled by the Eternal Son. Before a Creator Son may engage in the creation of any new type of being, any new design of creature, he must secure the consent of the Eternal and Original Mother Son.

3. Personality is designed and bestowed by the Universal Father.

21:2.7 The types and patterns of mind are determined by the precreature factors of being. After these have been associated to constitute a creature (personal or otherwise), mind is the endowment of the Third Source and Center, the universal source of mind ministry to all beings below the level of Paradise Creators.

21:2.8 The control of spirit designs and types depends on the level of their manifestation. In the last analysis, spiritual design is controlled by the Trinity or by the pre-Trinity spirit endowments of the Trinity personalities—Father, Son, and Spirit.

21:2.9 When such a perfect and divine Son has taken possession of the space site of his chosen universe; when the initial problems of universe materialization and of gross equilibrium have been resolved; when he has formed an effective and co-operative working union with the complemental Daughter of the Infinite Spirit—then do this Universe Son and this Universe Spirit initiate that liaison which is designed to give origin to the innumerable hosts of their local universe children. In connection with this event the Creative Spirit focalization of the Paradise Infinite Spirit becomes changed in nature, taking on the personal qualities of the Mother Spirit of a local universe.

21:2.10 Notwithstanding that all Creator Sons are divinely like their Paradise parents, none exactly resembles another; each is unique, diverse, exclusive, and original in nature as well as in personality. And since they are the architects and makers of the life plans of their respective realms, this very diversity insures that their domains will also be diverse in every form and phase of Michael-derived living existence which may be created or subsequently evolved therein. Hence the orders of creatures native to the local universes are quite varied. No two are administered or inhabited by dual-origin native beings who are in all respects identical. Within any superuniverse, one half of their inherent attributes are quite alike, being derived from the uniform Creative Spirits; the other half vary, being derived from the diversified Creator Sons. But such diversity does not characterize those creatures of sole origin in the Creative Spirit nor those imported beings who are native to the central or superuniverses.

Me here: The purpose of each of the 7 bestowals is to express one of each of the 7 Master Spirits during each bestowal. For our Michael, the final and 7th bestowal was specifically to express God the Father to all of Nebadon. And interestingly, this bestowal came during a System rebellion whose Manifesto and rallying cry was the denial of the existence of God the Father! One of Michael's earlier bestowals was also into the midst of an active rebellion. Our Michael purposely rushes into the teeth and fire of local rebellions as one of his own created beings to experience and respond to the crisis and portray to his universe, the power of love and mercy over sin and doubt.

So Michael came to Urantia to demonstrate the dedication of his personal will to the will of his and our Father God. The question I would ask we discuss here now is: Did Michael give up or forsake his own freewill by portraying the will of the 7 Spirits? Or were his portrayals of those wills also a demonstration of the full range of his own personal freewill options and choices which could have been portrayed by a full spectrum of choices available to him as Michael?

119:8.3 (1318.2) In completing his creature bestowals, Michael was not only establishing his own sovereignty but also was augmenting the evolving sovereignty of God the Supreme. In the course of these bestowals the Creator Son not only engaged in a descending exploration of the various natures of creature personality, but he also achieved the revelation of the variously diversified wills of the Paradise Deities, whose synthetic unity, as revealed by the Supreme Creators, is revelatory of the will of the Supreme Being.

119:8.4 (1318.3) These various will aspects of the Deities are eternally personalized in the differing natures of the Seven Master Spirits, and each of Michael’s bestowals was peculiarly revelatory of one of these divinity manifestations. On his Melchizedek bestowal he manifested the united will of the Father, Son, and Spirit, on his Lanonandek bestowal the will of the Father and the Son; on the Adamic bestowal he revealed the will of the Father and the Spirit, on the seraphic bestowal the will of the Son and the Spirit; on the Uversa mortal bestowal he portrayed the will of the Conjoint Actor, on the morontia mortal bestowal the will of the Eternal Son; and on the Urantia material bestowal he lived the will of the Universal Father, even as a mortal of flesh and blood.

Bradly 8)


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 3951
So let us consider 4 specific times of Michael's experience related to this final bestowal and examine the fact and function of his freewill. These are times of momentous decions and freewill choices where priorities, strategies, tactics, timing, and other elements and certain self imposed (chosen) restrictions were self determined (chosen) by Michael either as Son of Man or Son of God.

These intersections of great and glorious freewill choice prove that Jesus always had personal freewill choice as he chose to align and subject his will to Deity as a demonstration of how this is functionally accomplished by all beings in time and space. And how this will alignment will always result in a very unique, personal, and original experience and expression and result. As this is God's will and way. For if God's will only provided for one expression there is no need for personality, experience, or expression of persons and wisdom nor any purpose for free will.

Before Michael came to Urantia, in the Perean Hills when the bestowal mission was actually completed, at the Transfiguration, and prior to his entry into Jerusalem are all critical times where decisions charted the course and determined the results of the mission task of will alignment and revelation to a world and a universe.


120:2.1 (1327.1) “1. In accordance with the usages and in conformity with the technique of Sonarington—in compliance with the mandates of the Eternal Son of Paradise—I have provided in every way for your immediate entrance upon this mortal bestowal in harmony with the plans formulated by you and placed in my keeping by Gabriel. You will grow up on Urantia as a child of the realm, complete your human education—all the while subject to the will of your Paradise Father—live your life on Urantia as you have determined, terminate your planetary sojourn, and prepare for ascension to your Father to receive from him the supreme sovereignty of your universe.


120:2.6 (1328.3) “6. On the planet of your bestowal, set rebellion-segregated man spiritually free. On Urantia, make a further contribution to the sovereignty of the Supreme, thus extending the establishment of this sovereignty throughout the broad domains of your personal creation. In this, your material bestowal in the likeness of the flesh, you are about to experience the final enlightenment of a time-space Creator, the dual experience of working within the nature of man with the will of your Paradise Father. In your temporal life the will of the finite creature and the will of the infinite Creator are to become as one, even as they are also uniting in the evolving Deity of the Supreme Being. Pour out upon the planet of your bestowal the Spirit of Truth and thus make all normal mortals on that isolated sphere immediately and fully accessible to the ministry of the segregated presence of our Paradise Father, the Thought Adjusters of the realms.

120:2.8 (1328.5) “8. Your great mission to be realized and experienced in the mortal incarnation is embraced in your decision to live a life wholeheartedly motivated to do the will of your Paradise Father, thus to reveal God, your Father, in the flesh and especially to the creatures of the flesh. At the same time you will also interpret, with a new enhancement, our Father, to the supermortal beings of all Nebadon. Equally with this ministry of new revelation and augmented interpretation of the Paradise Father to the human and the superhuman type of mind, you will also so function as to make a new revelation of man to God. Exhibit in your one short life in the flesh, as it has never before been seen in all Nebadon, the transcendent possibilities attainable by a God-knowing human during the short career of mortal existence, and make a new and illuminating interpretation of man and the vicissitudes of his planetary life to all the superhuman intelligences of all Nebadon, and for all time. You are to go down to Urantia in the likeness of mortal flesh, and living as a man in your day and generation, you will so function as to show your entire universe the ideal of perfected technique in the supreme engagement of the affairs of your vast creation: The achievement of God seeking man and finding him and the phenomenon of man seeking God and finding him; and doing all of this to mutual satisfaction and doing it during one short lifetime in the flesh.

136:3.5 (1513.2) While he tarried on the mountain, talking with Gabriel, the Constellation Father of Edentia appeared to Jesus and Gabriel in person, saying: “The records are completed. The sovereignty of Michael number 611,121 over his universe of Nebadon rests in completion at the right hand of the Universal Father. I bring to you the bestowal release of Immanuel, your sponsor-brother for the Urantia incarnation. You are at liberty now or at any subsequent time, in the manner of your own choosing, to terminate your incarnation bestowal, ascend to the right hand of your Father, receive your sovereignty, and assume your well-earned unconditional rulership of all Nebadon. I also testify to the completion of the records of the superuniverse, by authorization of the Ancients of Days, having to do with the termination of all sin-rebellion in your universe and endowing you with full and unlimited authority to deal with any and all such possible upheavals in the future. Technically, your work on Urantia and in the flesh of the mortal creature is finished. Your course from now on is a matter of your own choosing.” *

158:3.4 (1755.4) Jesus welcomed this testimony regarding the success of his earth mission presented by the messengers of the Eternal Son and the Infinite Spirit, but he noted that his Father did not indicate that the Urantia bestowal was finished; only did the unseen presence of the Father bear witness through Jesus’ Personalized Adjuster, saying, “This is my beloved Son; give heed to him.” And this was spoken in words to be heard also by the three apostles.

158:3.5 (1755.5) After this celestial visitation Jesus sought to know his Father’s will and decided to pursue the mortal bestowal to its natural end. This was the significance of the transfiguration to Jesus. To the three apostles it was an event marking the entrance of the Master upon the final phase of his earth career as the Son of God and the Son of Man.

158:3.6 (1755.6) After the formal visitation of Gabriel and the Father Melchizedek, Jesus held informal converse with these, his Sons of ministry, and communed with them concerning the affairs of the universe.

Below Jesus preaches on counting the cost of commitment to God's will. He now predicts his own mortal end in detail and considers how best to proceed. In all things did Jesus exercise freewill.

171:2.4 (1870.1) “Now, then, must each of you sit down and count the cost of being my disciple. From now on you will not be able to follow after us, listening to the teaching and beholding the works; you will be required to face bitter persecutions and to bear witness for this gospel in the face of crushing disappointment. If you are unwilling to renounce all that you are and to dedicate all that you have, then are you unworthy to be my disciple. If you have already conquered yourself within your own heart, you need have no fear of that outward victory which you must presently gain when the Son of Man is rejected by the chief priests and the Sadducees and is given into the hands of mocking unbelievers.

171:2.5 (1870.2) “Now should you examine yourself to find out your motive for being my disciple. If you seek honor and glory, if you are worldly minded, you are like the salt when it has lost its savor. And when that which is valued for its saltiness has lost its savor, wherewith shall it be seasoned? Such a condiment is useless; it is fit only to be cast out among the refuse. Now have I warned you to turn back to your homes in peace if you are not willing to drink with me the cup which is being prepared. Again and again have I told you that my kingdom is not of this world, but you will not believe me. He who has ears to hear let him hear what I say.”


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 183 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 ... 13  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Registered users: Google Feedfetcher


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You can post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group