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Exploitation or slavery or domination are all forms of power...not will.

This really is not difficult or complicated. Will is always ours to determine even in chains and under total power domination by another. Only force can impose will upon another, a sinful unrighteous dominion. It is not will dominating will.


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Kat,
I think you posted a very relevant statement back on page one of this thread, and I think this is really where we've come around again in this discussion.

katroofjebus wrote:
SEla_Kelly wrote:
But will is never infantile or immature.


I agree that will itself is an attribute of personality which has a divine source. The matter in question concerns the execution of will. Human will is immature in its manifestation, meaning imperfect. God's will is perfect in its manifestation. It's how the power of will is utilized and expressed that determines its level of closeness to God (maturity) or distance from God (immaturity).


Will is expressed by choosing. It is our choices, instructed by our will, that bring us closer or farther from God.

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And it is this very power of choice, the universe insignia of freewill creaturehood, that constitutes man's greatest opportunity and his supreme cosmic responsibility. Upon the integrity of the human volition depends the eternal destiny of the future finaliter; upon the sincerity of the mortal free will the divine Adjuster depends for eternal personality; upon the faithfulness of mortal choice the Universal Father depends for the realization of a new ascending son; upon the steadfastness and wisdom of decision-actions the Supreme Being depends for the actuality of experiential evolution. ~ The Urantia Book, (112:5.5)


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Agon and I are accused of a specious argument despite the many supporting quotes provided.

But will cannot dominate will without imposing power. Otherwise it is voluntary, willful agreement/cooperation.

According to the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy:

Domination: The Basic Idea

There is, of course, considerable disagreement about what domination really is. Even so, theorists of domination tend to agree about this much: domination is a kind of unconstrained, unjust imbalance of power that enables agents or systems to control other agents or the conditions of their actions. We can call this “the basic idea” of domination. The basic idea has the following components:

Domination is a kind of power, and usually social power—that is, power over other people.Domination involves imbalances or asymmetries in power. The English domination comes from the Latin dominus. A dominus is a master, and mastery represents an extreme of social power. Masters usually have all but complete control over how their slaves will act or over the conditions in which they act. As a result, the master/slave relation is often treated as the most obvious case of domination.Domination has many forms. Traditional Roman republicanism recognized a distinction between imperiumand dominium—domination by the state contrasted with domination by private parties (Pettit 1997; 31; 2001: 152ff). The power a master has over a slave may be the clearest case of domination, but it is not necessary to have a literal dominus in order to be dominated. For example, tyrants over their subjects and men over women in patriarchal societies are also common examples of domination. Combined with the master/slave, these examples are so common in the literature that we can refer to them together simply as the Paradigms. Failure to explain why the Paradigms count as domination is sometimes considered reason enough to reject a theory of domination (see Lovett 2010, Blunt 2015, and McCammon 2015). Other examples may not manifest the extremes of power we see in the Paradigms; but it is generally agreed that domination comes in degrees, and that someone may be dominated even if nobody has total power over them.Dominating power is in some sense unconstrained. It is up to masters how they will or will not use their power. Such power is often described as arbitrary or discretionary; or, perhaps, unlimited by the interests of those under its sway; or, perhaps, projects only the vision of the world most favorable to the empowered while preventing the subjugated from seeing themselves or the world on their own terms. However it is characterized, that claim that domination counts as such because of the absence of some limit recurs in many theories.Domination is an unjust or morally illegitimate form of social power. Whatever domination turns out to be, it is morally serious. It is a complaint (Pettit 2005). To be dominated is typically to have cause for indignation and resentment against the dominator or against institutions that dominate or make domination possible.

Much contemporary disagreement about domination involves competing answers to three questions: (1) Who, or what, can dominate? (2) Is it possible to dominate merely by having power with a certain structure, or is domination an exercise or an abuse of power? (3) Exercised or unexercised, what kind of power is domination? The remainder of this entry will address each of these questions in turn, then conclude with a survey of how the idea of domination has been used in recent applied ethical theory. It will become clear as we examine competing answers to these three questions that different theorists have very different ideas of why, exactly, we need a theory of domination. There may be wide agreement that we need the idea of domination to make sense of unjust power relations, but unjust power relations are wildly varied, and theorists of domination disagree not only about which varieties most need to be understood, but about how theorizing domination helps us to understand them.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/domination/

A fascinating study.


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Will is expressed by choosing. It is our choices, instructed by our will, that bring us closer or farther from God.


I might even say (if you don't mind, Agon):

Will is expressed by choosing. It is our choices, instructed by the motive behind what it is we want, that bring us closer or farther from God.

Motive is a big deal as to why someone wants what they want...and sincerity.

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39:4.14 The keys of the kingdom of heaven are: sincerity, more sincerity, and more sincerity. All men have these keys. Men use them—advance in spirit status—by decisions, by more decisions, and by more decisions. The highest moral choice is the choice of the highest possible value, and always—in any sphere, in all of them—this is to choose to do the will of God. If man thus chooses, he is great, though he be the humblest citizen of Jerusem or even the least of mortals on Urantia.


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Will is a power, the personality's power to choose. Will is the "power" part of the phrase, "power-personality synthesis".

This is the mechanim by which creatures participate in Deity revelation in time and space. The power of will can be used creatively, for this synthesis, or it can be used to destabilize and create chaos. Using the power of the personality to destabilize and create chaos isolates the personality because it is choosing to go against the way of the universes as they settle into light and life. And it is this stabilizing power-personality synthesis that contributes to the emergence of the Supreme.


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So...why do people choose against their own will...without actually changing their will? Only by the imposition of power and domination of an individual or group. Coercion by threat of direct violence, blackmail, extortion, threat of violence upon loved ones, withholding of sustenance or freedom or rights, etc.

And yet....even this choice to resist or succumb and comply to power and domination is a free will choice. There are those who choose captivity, torture, death, and destruction rather than succumb to domination and intimidation. We often call these heroes, legends, and martyrs....the victims of lost or great or even small causes.

It is rediculous to claim one person or creature's will has the means and ability to dominate another's will without the addition of coercion by leverage and power and domination. "Will power" describes a personal tendancy of striving, persistence, and endurance of effort to achieve goals. It is not the ability to dominate the will of others by will over will.

To deny the absolute sanctity of inviolate free will is to expose personal prejudice which profoundly and directly contradicts the Revelation. As has been well referenced.

According to the UB...the mind cannot be invaded. The soul cannot be possessed. The TA does not abandon the mind. Freewill choice is absolutely sanctified and cannot be controlled by another's will....not even God's!!!


Last edited by fanofVan on Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:05 am +0000, edited 3 times in total.

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Here is Jesus' definition of will.

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130:2.7 (1431.2) This was a conference which lasted well into the night, in the course of which the young man requested Jesus to tell him the difference between the will of God and that human mind act of choosing which is also called will. In substance Jesus said: The will of God is the way of God, partnership with the choice of God in the face of any potential alternative. To do the will of God, therefore, is the progressive experience of becoming more and more like God, and God is the source and destiny of all that is good and beautiful and true. The will of man is the way of man, the sum and substance of that which the mortal chooses to be and do. Will is the deliberate choice of a self-conscious being which leads to decision-conduct based on intelligent reflection.


Notice that Jesus contrasts the will of God with the will of man, showing that they are two separate wills. He says that to do the will of God is the progressive experience of becoming more and more like God. No where does it say that one must give up their will in order to do God's will.

In his conversations with Ganid, Jesus explained further:

Quote:
130:2.9 (1431.4) The next day Ganid talked all this over with his father, and it was in answer to Gonod’s question that Jesus explained that “human wills which are fully occupied with passing only upon temporal decisions having to do with the material problems of animal existence are doomed to perish in time. Those who make wholehearted moral decisions and unqualified spiritual choices are thus progressively identified with the indwelling and divine spirit, and thereby are they increasingly transformed into the values of eternal survival—unending progression of divine service.”

130:2.10 (1431.5) It was on this same day that we first heard that momentous truth which, stated in modern terms, would signify: “Will is that manifestation of the human mind which enables the subjective consciousness to express itself objectively and to experience the phenomenon of aspiring to be Godlike.” And it is in this same sense that every reflective and spiritually minded human being can become creative.


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Agon D. Onter wrote:
Here is Jesus' definition of will.

Quote:
130:2.7 (1431.2) This was a conference which lasted well into the night, in the course of which the young man requested Jesus to tell him the difference between the will of God and that human mind act of choosing which is also called will. In substance Jesus said: The will of God is the way of God, partnership with the choice of God in the face of any potential alternative. To do the will of God, therefore, is the progressive experience of becoming more and more like God, and God is the source and destiny of all that is good and beautiful and true. The will of man is the way of man, the sum and substance of that which the mortal chooses to be and do. Will is the deliberate choice of a self-conscious being which leads to decision-conduct based on intelligent reflection.


Notice that Jesus contrasts the will of God with the will of man, showing that they are two separate wills. He says that to do the will of God is the progressive experience of becoming more and more like God. No where does it say that one must give up their will in order to do God's will.


I produced that very reference two or three times in this thread alone, along with another.

Will is the power of choice. Deliberation requires both volitional power and consciousness of options. Will exists as part of personality alone, but it cannot be expressed without mind, the arena of choice. Mind is necessary for consciousness of alternative choices. Here is another reference I've already posted:

112:6.5 Creature volition cannot exist without mind, but it does persist in spite of the loss of the material intellect. During the times immediately following survival, the ascending personality is in great measure guided by the character patterns inherited from the human life and by the newly appearing action of morontia mota. And these guides to mansonia conduct function acceptably in the early stages of the morontia life and prior to the emergence of morontia will as a full-fledged volitional expression of the ascending personality.

Note two things. One: Volition is something separate from mind but dependent upon mind. Two: Volition can exist without material mind. This is because the soul is minded. After death of the material mind, the personality's power of will is transferred to the soul. Of course this process begins during life in the flesh with the birth of the soul when the dual mind associated with the personality makes its first appearance. When the personality begins to transfer its identity to the soul, it becomes soul conscious thus enabling it to deliberate over the choices discovered within the soul where the pre-mind and pre-will of the Father live. But the power to select one choice over another, one mind over another, is a power that belongs solely to the personality and it's called "will". Will goes with the personality from one mind level to the other.


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fanofVan wrote:
katroofjebus wrote:
brooklyn_born wrote:
I agree that will power is related to self-control. But I would add that will power is also related to control. Besides self-mastery if I am (will power) strong enough I can impose my will on you.


Yeah, that's why I added "when used in a positive direction".
katroofjebus wrote:
Can we agree that will-power is related to self-control, or self-mastery when used in a positive direction?
.

If I imposed my will upon you it would be in a negative direction. There are plenty of people who do this, but I think it is a manifestation of immaturity. Isn't it really evidence of poorly developed personality control? an unbalanced personality identifying with the egoistic nature as opposed to the altruistic nature?


No one may impose their will upon another. They may impose power over another...the power of violence or size or money or authority or privelege ...as a form of leverage. I cannot impose my will on a kitten or toddler or teenager. A complete falsehood of a claim and as I noted, a claim with agenda related to other false claims,

Ignore the obvious all you wish.


It is important to note that BB has a very specific desire and need to both believe and prove that one may impose their will over another...and do so without coercion or power....just one will dominating another. I don't understand kat's angle here so this analysis does not include any inferences regarding her own beliefs and her vigorous defense of BB's beliefs in this matter.

BB's beliefs are his own and of no concern to me and I do not mean to belittle them or demean them in any way, but only to contrast them with the contents of the UB we are here to share and study together. I do not seek agreement of beliefs nor do I intend to convince anyone of any different beliefs than their own. But these beliefs of BB's are well articulated, by him in his own words, and with certainty and vigor and redundancy....and they explain this topic and his position here.

BB believes there are rebel angels roaming Urantia who have joined the rebellion sometime in the mid to late 20th century and he believes these angels can and do invade the minds of people and impose their nefarious wills upon the minds and persons they have "taken over". BB does not believe in the inviolate nature of free will.....OR of the mind itself.

BB believes that God Fragments (Thought Adjusters) can, will, and do abandon the minds of material mortals both/either on the planet of birth or during the slumber of survival. He also believes that at a certain age, Thought Adjusters become Thought Controllers (a term and description of TA's ministry at a certain age and maturity of the person) which can override the free will and mind of the individual.

He has also said he believes that there are souls who slumber and are rematerialized on the Mansion Worlds who's TA's have abandoned them, who then wander the heavens and are subject to being taken over by evil spirits.

In other words, our free will and our minds and our very souls are subject to the influence and take over by other beings, including malevolent angels and spirits. The UB teaches precisely the opposite in every single case.

This particular topic of Will, Free Will, Will Power, and CHOICE has particular significance related to all these other beliefs that BB has shared here.

It is most unfortunate that BB has not and will not simply share these beliefs in contrast to the teachings of the UB. No. His arguments are that the UB somehow supports and verifies his beliefs. But the UB clearly does not support even one of those listed above. Including the current effort to convince us that free will is not free and we do not have the inviolate freedom of personality for choice and that our will is subject to the will of others....God, rogue angels, evil spirits, and God Fragments and the ministering Spirits to mind and soul.

There is no reason here to play patty cake and refuse to state and face the issues at hand. These are each and all profoundly important beliefs which are not validated or verified by the Papers but are indeed refuted and contradicted. Which is not to say and does not mean BB is wrong in his beliefs. But he is very wrong to believe these beliefs are in agreement with the teachings of the Revelation.

I appreciate the opportunity to discuss these issues and beliefs and compare them to the actual contents and teachings of the UB. I hope it is clear this is not an attack on BB or on his beliefs. We all have them. The UB says we should not cherish our own beliefs and perspective of reality too much...such loyalty to our own opinions is a great obstacle to growth.

8)


Last edited by fanofVan on Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:10 am +0000, edited 3 times in total.

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Okay, so we agree that will is the power to choose. Now let's go back to page 1, to the very first post of this thread, and substitute the phrase "power to choose" with 'will' and 'will' wherever it says 'choose'.

brooklyn_born wrote:

When your choose will to express the will power to choose of divinity, the desire is divine. It ---will power to choose of divinity--- is not yours. Divinity is Father's gifted to us through the agency of the Father fragment. Once the decision is made, and unless and until the mortal chooses wills to reengage its free will power to choose, that is, ability to desire something other than divine, will power to choose is no longer logically "free." You could say, it is "consecrated." Free will power to choose has been transformed into the Divine will power to choose.

Jesus tells us this in the following pronouncement:

Quote:
136:2.4 (1511.3)... Jesus, looking up to the near-by Adjuster, prayed... "Your will power to choose be done on earth


Jesus chose exercised his will not to express his free will power to choose (possibly deciding not to undergo the bestowal career). Instead, he made the choice exerted his power to choose to put his free will power to choose aside by submitting it to God's will power to choose.


Does it make any sense? Consider the above in light of these statements by Jesus.

Quote:
I have come to this world to do my Father’s bidding, and it has truly been said of the Son of Man that he is a friend of publicans and sinners.


Quote:
169:4.2 (1855.3) Jesus never gave his apostles a systematic lesson concerning the personality and attributes of the Father in heaven. He never asked men to believe in his Father; he took it for granted they did. Jesus never belittled himself by offering arguments in proof of the reality of the Father. His teaching regarding the Father all centered in the declaration that he and the Father are one; that he who has seen the Son has seen the Father; that the Father, like the Son, knows all things; that only the Son really knows the Father, and he to whom the Son will reveal him; that he who knows the Son knows also the Father; and that the Father sent him into the world to reveal their combined natures and to show forth their conjoint work. He never made other pronouncements about his Father except to the woman of Samaria at Jacob’s well, when he declared, “God is spirit.”


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We can analyze and discuss what "will" and/or "freewill" is or isn't until the cows come home. However, being a power, essentially, and to put it in a different light, a verb, an action of our person, we must only engage it to experience it. Ultimately we know it by its use.

In paper 91.5.1 the Midwayer author issues the real challenge to its effective use, (and therefore, discovery) when in discussing prayer he says,

"4. You must make a wholehearted choice of the divine will. You must obliterate the dead center of indecision.

5. You not only recognize the Father's will and choose to do it, but you have effected an unqualified consecration, and a dynamic dedication, to the actual doing of the Father's will."

Nothing short of our willing exhaustion of our personality capacity to do God's will will reveal to us the potential reality contained within the term "freewill".

Jim


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Jim George wrote:
We can analyze and discuss what "will" and/or "freewill" is or isn't until the cows come home. However, being a power, essentially, and to put it in a different light, a verb, an action of our person, we must only engage it to experience it. Ultimately we know it by its use.

In paper 91.5.1 the Midwayer author issues the real challenge to its effective use, (and therefore, discovery) when in discussing prayer he says,

"4. You must make a wholehearted choice of the divine will. You must obliterate the dead center of indecision.

5. You not only recognize the Father's will and choose to do it, but you have effected an unqualified consecration, and a dynamic dedication, to the actual doing of the Father's will."

Nothing short of our willing exhaustion of our personality capacity to do God's will will reveal to us the potential reality contained within the term "freewill".

Jim


Jim....thanks. What's your opinion about the prior question of what is God's will and do we lose personal will as we "make a wholehearted choice of the divine will". Some here are claiming that doing God's will or consecrating our will to God's will or perfecting our own will and motivation results in less free will because God's will is some singular thing rather than a spectrum of options. Aren't there lots of ways to express God's will by the sanctified and devoted pilgrim and believer? Couldn't someone make 100 choices that are God's will while a different personality makes 100 different choices that are also God's will?

Does alignment of will with God reduce our choices? Or increase our choice? What do you think?


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Liberty is freewill choice. Every personality has liberty and freewill choice. We each get to choose. Actually we all MUST choose. Not choosing is a choice. Agreement with someone else is a choice. Bending to coercion and succumbing to the power of domination is also a choice. No one may NOT choose. Can't happen. It is by choice that God and the creators and rulers and administrators of the universe of universes form and manage the creation of potentials and the actualizations of potentials.

Without the liberty of freewill choice then there is only absolutism and perfection and there can be no perfecting, no evolution, no growth, no potential, no realization, no actualization, no progress. There would be no Supreme and no experience of choosing and the results of choosing and there could be no acquirement of wisdom and no uncertainty and no adventure and no thrill of achievement.

All of these are elements of God's will. And God's way. And God's plan. And God's purpose. They are all provided for and functions of God: evolution, perfecting, potentials, realization of potentials, actualization of that realization, experience, uncertainty, adventure, progress, achievement, and the freewill choice and liberty which is the source of all of those.

The experiential elimination of false liberty and immature decisions based on error, evil, and sin does not reduce the amount of freewill choice and true liberty we enjoy. The reduction and eventual elimination of those increases the freewill choices of true liberty. Perfecting, growth, wisdom, and true liberty all lead to more and more options within God's will. God's will is not a singular thing - ever. God's will is never expressed by only one choice. God's will is chosen by mind and then expressed by our individual, unique experiential wisdom based freewill choice in the moment...and that might include a nearly infinite spectrum of choices limited only by our own limitations of creativity and understanding but certainly NOT limited by God's will.

False liberty results in very limited options and choices and potentials in reality.

True liberty does not reduce our options and choices....it liberates them into the infinite potentials of reality!

There is not just one note or even one song or one instrument played in the heavenly orchestra and musical expressions and potentials of God's will for his creation and creatures!! True Liberty delivers infinity to the finite!!!

Paper 54

Problems of the Lucifer Rebellion

54:0.1 (613.1) EVOLUTIONARY man finds it difficult fully to comprehend the significance and to grasp the meanings of evil, error, sin, and iniquity. Man is slow to perceive that contrastive perfection and imperfection produce potential evil; that conflicting truth and falsehood create confusing error; that the divine endowment of freewill choice eventuates in the divergent realms of sin and righteousness; that the persistent pursuit of divinity leads to the kingdom of God as contrasted with its continuous rejection, which leads to the domains of iniquity.

54:0.2 (613.2) The Gods neither create evil nor permit sin and rebellion. Potential evil is time-existent in a universe embracing differential levels of perfection meanings and values. Sin is potential in all realms where imperfect beings are endowed with the ability to choose between good and evil. The very conflicting presence of truth and untruth, fact and falsehood, constitutes the potentiality of error. The deliberate choice of evil constitutes sin; the willful rejection of truth is error; the persistent pursuit of sin and error is iniquity.

1. True and False Liberty

54:1.1 (613.3) Of all the perplexing problems growing out of the Lucifer rebellion, none has occasioned more difficulty than the failure of immature evolutionary mortals to distinguish between true and false liberty.

54:1.2 (613.4) True liberty is the quest of the ages and the reward of evolutionary progress. False liberty is the subtle deception of the error of time and the evil of space. Enduring liberty is predicated on the reality of justice—intelligence, maturity, fraternity, and equity.

54:1.3 (613.5) Liberty is a self-destroying technique of cosmic existence when its motivation is unintelligent, unconditioned, and uncontrolled. True liberty is progressively related to reality and is ever regardful of social equity, cosmic fairness, universe fraternity, and divine obligations.

54:1.4 (613.6) Liberty is suicidal when divorced from material justice, intellectual fairness, social forbearance, moral duty, and spiritual values. Liberty is nonexistent apart from cosmic reality, and all personality reality is proportional to its divinity relationships.

54:1.5 (613.7) Unbridled self-will and unregulated self-expression equal unmitigated selfishness, the acme of ungodliness. Liberty without the associated and ever-increasing conquest of self is a figment of egoistic mortal imagination. Self-motivated liberty is a conceptual illusion, a cruel deception. License masquerading in the garments of liberty is the forerunner of abject bondage.

54:1.6 (614.1) True liberty is the associate of genuine self-respect; false liberty is the consort of self-admiration. True liberty is the fruit of self-control; false liberty, the assumption of self-assertion. Self-control leads to altruistic service; self-admiration tends towards the exploitation of others for the selfish aggrandizement of such a mistaken individual as is willing to sacrifice righteous attainment for the sake of possessing unjust power over his fellow beings.

54:1.7 (614.2) Even wisdom is divine and safe only when it is cosmic in scope and spiritual in motivation.


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brooklyn_born wrote:
Divinity is Father's gifted to us through the agency of the Father fragment.


I don't know if you're aware of this, but divinity is not a gift. The Father Fragment, or Thought Adjuster is a gift, but divinity is not. We earn it by the quality and quantity of the choices we make.

(365.4) 32:5.8 The goal of eternity is ahead! The adventure of divinity attainment lies before you! The race for perfection is on! whosoever will may enter, and certain victory will crown the efforts of every human being who will run the race of faith and trust, depending every step of the way on the leading of the indwelling Adjuster and on the guidance of that good spirit of the Universe Son, which so freely has been poured out upon all flesh.

(631.3) 55:6.7 This is the story of the magnificent goal of mortal striving on the evolutionary worlds; and it all takes place even before human beings enter upon their morontia careers; all of this splendid development is attainable by material mortals on the inhabited worlds, the very first stage of that endless and incomprehensible career of Paradise ascension and divinity attainment.

(1574.8 ) 140:5.15 And then Jesus went on to instruct his followers in the realization of the chief purpose of all human struggling — perfection — even divine attainment.


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I don't think man ever becomes divine with a capital D. After fusion, we become a new kind of being "as a universe associate of Deity," but to be divine with a capital D, would make us equal to God. That's not gonna happen. Before fusion, the Adjuster is a "prepersonal" entity. At fusion, the TA gains personality (ours) and we gain the privilege of becoming the associate of Deity.


Quote:
107:0.3 God, having commanded man to be perfect, even as he is perfect, has descended as the Adjuster to become man's experiential partner in the achievement of the supernal destiny which has been thus ordained. The fragment of God which indwells the mind of man is the absolute and unqualified assurance that man can find the Universal Father in association with this divine Adjuster, which came forth from God to find man and sonship him even in the days of the flesh.

107:0.4 Any mortal who has seen a Creator Son has seen the Universal Father, and he who is indwelt by a divine Adjuster is indwelt by the Paradise Father. Every mortal who is consciously or unconsciously following the leading of his indwelling Adjuster is living in accordance with the will of God. Consciousness of Adjuster presence is consciousness of God's presence. Eternal fusion of the Adjuster with the evolutionary soul of man is the factual experience of eternal union with God as a universe associate of Deity.


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