Urantia Book Forum

Urantia Book Discussion Board : Study Group
It is currently Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:46 am +0000

All times are UTC - 7 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 34 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:52 am +0000
Posts: 890
brooklyn_born wrote:
I explained it. He was not ready to hear Jesus' word the time he made contact with the master teacher. His mindset was not fertile ground to receive the seed of truth. ...


Meh. Jesus was not one to shirk opportunities to break through to those whose mindsets were not receptive to the truth.

Quote:
164:2.3 (1810.5) When this little meeting broke up, all went away mystified by the Master’s personality, charmed by his gracious manner, and in love with the man. They had sought to advise Jesus concerning his desire to win the remaining members of the Sanhedrin. The Master listened attentively, but silently, to all their proposals. He well knew none of their plans would work. He surmised that the majority of the Jewish leaders never would accept the gospel of the kingdom; nevertheless, he gave them all this one more chance to choose. But when he went forth that night, with Nathaniel and Thomas, to lodge on the Mount of Olives, he had not yet decided upon the method he would pursue in bringing his work once more to the notice of the Sanhedrin.


Jesus made the attempt, even when he knew it was extremely unlikely to succeed.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2014 5:02 am +0000
Posts: 910
Location: Brooklyn NY
Agon D. Onter wrote:
brooklyn_born wrote:
I explained it. He was not ready to hear Jesus' word the time he made contact with the master teacher. His mindset was not fertile ground to receive the seed of truth. ...


Meh. Jesus was not one to shirk opportunities to break through to those whose mindsets were not receptive to the truth.

Quote:
164:2.3 (1810.5) When this little meeting broke up, all went away mystified by the Master’s personality, charmed by his gracious manner, and in love with the man. They had sought to advise Jesus concerning his desire to win the remaining members of the Sanhedrin. The Master listened attentively, but silently, to all their proposals. He well knew none of their plans would work. He surmised that the majority of the Jewish leaders never would accept the gospel of the kingdom; nevertheless, he gave them all this one more chance to choose. But when he went forth that night, with Nathaniel and Thomas, to lodge on the Mount of Olives, he had not yet decided upon the method he would pursue in bringing his work once more to the notice of the Sanhedrin.


Jesus made the attempt, even when he knew it was extremely unlikely to succeed.


Because they were normally minded people, obviously.

_________________
BB, the Urantian Gnostic606


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:52 am +0000
Posts: 890
Oh. So by your reasoning, Jesus will make every attempt to share the truth with the Sanhedrin, who were blessed with normal minds but who were resistant to his message due to political and self-serving reasons; but he won't bother to share the truth with a person stricken with poverty and whose mind, through no fault of his own, lacked capacity to know God. The beggar "was not ready to hear Jesus' word the time he made contact with the master teacher. His mindset was not fertile ground to receive the seed of truth." But the Sanhedrin were normally minded people, obviously, so they were deserving of Jesus' time, even though Jesus knew it was probably futile with the Sanhedrin.

Huh! That seems wrong, somehow ….


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2014 5:02 am +0000
Posts: 910
Location: Brooklyn NY
You forgot about free will? Normal minded people can actively choose to be iniquitous and regress their mind off the psychic circles, and consciously reject the truth. Jesus made a final attempt to preach to them, yes? Why give up after that attempt? Why not continue preaching since they're normal minded? Because he knew their character and the trajectory it was on, that they were on the precipice of consciously choosing to resist the will of God.

Agon D. Onter wrote:
Oh. So by your reasoning, Jesus will make every attempt to share the truth with the Sanhedrin, who were blessed with normal minds but who were resistant to his message due to political and self-serving reasons; but he won't bother to share the truth with a person stricken with poverty and whose mind, through no fault of his own, lacked capacity to know God. The beggar "was not ready to hear Jesus' word the time he made contact with the master teacher. His mindset was not fertile ground to receive the seed of truth." But the Sanhedrin were normally minded people, obviously, so they were deserving of Jesus' time, even though Jesus knew it was probably futile with the Sanhedrin.

Huh! That seems wrong, somehow ….

_________________
BB, the Urantian Gnostic606


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:52 am +0000
Posts: 890
Actually, it was because he left Jerusalem right after that, "not again to return until near the time when he prepared to leave this world." I think that's a pretty good reason, don't you? :badgrin:


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2014 5:02 am +0000
Posts: 910
Location: Brooklyn NY
"nevertheless, He gave them all this one more chance to choose"

I thinketh not, sir. :badgrin:


Agon D. Onter wrote:
Actually, it was because he left Jerusalem right after that, "not again to return until near the time when he prepared to leave this world." I think that's a pretty good reason, don't you? :badgrin:

_________________
BB, the Urantian Gnostic606


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:52 am +0000
Posts: 890
brooklyn_born wrote:
You forgot about free will? Normal minded people can actively choose to be iniquitous and regress their mind off the psychic circles, and consciously reject the truth. Jesus made a final attempt to preach to them, yes? Why give up after that attempt? Why not continue preaching since they're normal minded? Because he knew their character and the trajectory it was on, that they were on the precipice of consciously choosing to resist the will of God.


Okay, so back up. Back on page 1 you said that "Subnormally minded people lack capacity for intelligent worship, but I do not think that that kind of mind is necessarily permanent during the course of the life of the person."

So, by your reasoning, subnormal minded people could potentially progress to a normal mind; their subnormal-ness is not "permanent". But. When Jesus perceived that the Sanhedrin were on the "precipice of consciously choosing to resist the will of God" (a very serious charge - you are saying that the Sanhedrin were potentially iniquitous), Jesus gave them one more chance. (If you have read part IV of UB at all, you know that he preached to the Sanhedrin many, many times).

Nevertheless, the subnormal minded person, who in your opinion is not permanently so, got NO CHANCE whatsoever to be given the truth by Jesus. Not a single opportunity!

Huh. Seems wrong somewhow ….


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 3554
It's just another contrary belief Agon without supporting text, evidence, or logic. Thanks for presenting sound reasoning and text evidence...of the obvious.

Normal and sub-normal mindedness do not oscillate or progress and regress. Jesus demonstrated an acute insight into the minds and souls of others and an ability to reach and penetrate minds too.

Jesus did not say the beggar was "not ready" or "unwilling" or "unworthy ". He said he lacked capacity. What could be plainer? No contemporary examples or psychiatric evidence has been offered here by the claimant. I think this is related to his other claims about Adjuster abandonments and subsequent Adjuster endowment and mind invasions and evil spirits taking over souls.

I await any logic or evidence for the wild claim that "It takes considerable effort for a subnormal mind to change its way of thinking."

So is the claim that ALL who are subnormal minded can think or pray their way to a normal mind...or just some? Who's who? And the claim is that neither Jesus nor the celestial authors can determine the difference? But it does exist? Good grief.

I hope BB has significant medical and professional expertise to lend some credibility to such radical and bold declarations which also contradict the UB. Or some medical research and accepted theories? Otherwise, more uneducated and illogical opinions and beliefs unrelated to the UB.

I would agree it takes considerable effort for a normal minded person to change how and what they think. Ignorance and prejudice are difficult obstacles to overcome. Evidently.


Last edited by fanofVan on Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:07 pm +0000, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2014 5:02 am +0000
Posts: 910
Location: Brooklyn NY
Let me explain it this way as I see it.

Subnormal mind, as long as it is in that mental state, never can receive salvation. It must undergo change. Normal mind can receive the message of salvation but also can consciously and actively choose to reject it, degenerating into a subnormal mental state. But once iniquity is embraced then TA breaks ties with mind, and there is no longer an opportunity for that person to become a faith son of God.


Agon D. Onter wrote:
brooklyn_born wrote:
You forgot about free will? Normal minded people can actively choose to be iniquitous and regress their mind off the psychic circles, and consciously reject the truth. Jesus made a final attempt to preach to them, yes? Why give up after that attempt? Why not continue preaching since they're normal minded? Because he knew their character and the trajectory it was on, that they were on the precipice of consciously choosing to resist the will of God.


Okay, so back up. Back on page 1 you said that "Subnormally minded people lack capacity for intelligent worship, but I do not think that that kind of mind is necessarily permanent during the course of the life of the person."

So, by your reasoning, subnormal minded people could potentially progress to a normal mind; their subnormal-ness is not "permanent". But. When Jesus perceived that the Sanhedrin were on the "precipice of consciously choosing to resist the will of God" (a very serious charge - you are saying that the Sanhedrin were potentially iniquitous), Jesus gave them one more chance. (If you have read part IV of UB at all, you know that he preached to the Sanhedrin many, many times).

Nevertheless, the subnormal minded person, who in your opinion is not permanently so, got NO CHANCE whatsoever to be given the truth by Jesus. Not a single opportunity!

Huh. Seems wrong somewhow ….

_________________
BB, the Urantian Gnostic606


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:52 am +0000
Posts: 890
Bradly wrote:
"So is the claim that ALL who are subnormal minded can think or pray their way to a normal mind...or just some? Who's who?"

I had the exact same thought. And if seraphim are able to help (some?) people progress to normal mind, why do we have any subnormal-minded people among us still? Wouldn't *anyone/ everyone* in that situation want to become normal minded? And wouldn't their guardian angels want them to have the capacity to know God?

That's the thing. Usinga combination of logic, common sense, backed up by UB (Jesus' own words!) it is obvious that the subnormal cannot progress to normal mind. But BB keeps grasping at straws ('what about free will?').


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2014 5:02 am +0000
Posts: 910
Location: Brooklyn NY
Agon D. Onter wrote:
Bradly wrote:
"So is the claim that ALL who are subnormal minded can think or pray their way to a normal mind...or just some? Who's who?"


Not all subnormal minds can think or pray their way to normal mind. Some subnormal minds have physical brain damage, or what Revelators call, "Intellectual (mind) death" (see 112:3.3).

Quote:
I had the exact same thought. And if seraphim are able to help (some?) people progress to normal mind, why do we have any subnormal-minded people among us still?


*See above*

_________________
BB, the Urantian Gnostic606


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 3554
brooklyn_born wrote:
Let me explain it this way as I see it.

Subnormal mind, as long as it is in that mental state, never can receive salvation. It must undergo change. Normal mind can receive the message of salvation but also can consciously and actively choose to reject it, degenerating into a subnormal mental state. But once iniquity is embraced then TA breaks ties with mind, and there is no longer an opportunity for that person to become a faith son of God.


Agon D. Onter wrote:
brooklyn_born wrote:
You forgot about free will? Normal minded people can actively choose to be iniquitous and regress their mind off the psychic circles, and consciously reject the truth. Jesus made a final attempt to preach to them, yes? Why give up after that attempt? Why not continue preaching since they're normal minded? Because he knew their character and the trajectory it was on, that they were on the precipice of consciously choosing to resist the will of God.


Okay, so back up. Back on page 1 you said that "Subnormally minded people lack capacity for intelligent worship, but I do not think that that kind of mind is necessarily permanent during the course of the life of the person."

So, by your reasoning, subnormal minded people could potentially progress to a normal mind; their subnormal-ness is not "permanent". But. When Jesus perceived that the Sanhedrin were on the "precipice of consciously choosing to resist the will of God" (a very serious charge - you are saying that the Sanhedrin were potentially iniquitous), Jesus gave them one more chance. (If you have read part IV of UB at all, you know that he preached to the Sanhedrin many, many times).

Nevertheless, the subnormal minded person, who in your opinion is not permanently so, got NO CHANCE whatsoever to be given the truth by Jesus. Not a single opportunity!

Huh. Seems wrong somewhow ….


Just an opinion and belief that contradicts both science and the UB. Believe what you will.

113:1.3 (1241.5) 1. The subnormal minded—those who do not exercise normal will power; those who do not make average decisions. This class embraces those who cannot comprehend God; they lack capacity for the intelligent worship of Deity. The subnormal beings of Urantia have a corps of seraphim, one company, with one battalion of cherubim, assigned to minister to them and to witness that justice and mercy are extended to them in the life struggles of the sphere.

113:1.3 is so clear and definitive. Subnormal mind "cannot comprehend God" and "lack capacity ".

They can neither think nor pray themselves to a progressive religious experience.

Another presumption made above is related to the concept of "salvation". BB claims: "Subnormal mind, as long as it is in that mental state, never can receive salvation."

Hmmmmm....not so sure about that claim either. Interesting claim. One I too might presume but I wonder, why do the subnormal minded have a corp of guardian seraphim ministering to their needs and to assure that justice and mercy are extended to them in the life struggles of the sphere? I am reminded such beings are not animals and did not choose their mental state and are deprived of the cognitive ability to choose their own way to their potential mortal destinies. So BB's claim of "never can receive salvation" seems arbitrarily declarative...and quite false potentially.

BB's claim here is that those who lack cognitive ability can think their way to cognition..."the mental action or process of acquiring knowledge and understanding through thought, experience, and the senses." So those who lack cognition can nonetheless use cognition to overcome its lack? Not likely.

Here's a link to a helpful article related to the topic:

https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-cognition-2794982

Still another false claim and presumption above by BB is that the normal but irreligious mind becomes subnormal because it does not make those choices BB construes are 'religious' enough for his definition of religious experience. Thusly, BB has formed and declared a set of creeds - beliefs and acts - which must be adhered to for personal salvation - or otherwise, our brain loses its normal cognitive capacity. This belief and claim once again defies and contradicts the UB...and common sense or reason.

As I stated before, BB has an entire set of beliefs and claims for which he is seeking evidentiary support from, for some reason, the Urantia Papers. These particular claims and beliefs provide some opportunity for the explanation of his reasoning and justification for other claims and beliefs. But so many of his religious and mindal beliefs presented here are an illogical house of cards that do not stand up to scrutiny nor favorably compare to the teachings of the UB. He overcomes the inherent skepticism of others by claiming the source material (the UB) is a non-factual but metaphorical collection of celestial opinions for everyone's own interpretations and that means his own are as sound as any others.

He has learned well enough to present initial questions which soon become declarative propositions of his own invention. Despite Maryjo's accusation of me, I do not believe BB has "sinister intent". I believe his intent is to present his personal beliefs and seek UB text which supports those. My disagreements with and criticism here is of BB's clearly stated ideas, claims, beliefs, proposals, declarations, and other declarative statements which I find conflict with or directly contradict the UB or simple reason. Or such is my intention.

I think we all have a tendency to defend our own beliefs and to believe they are a result of experience, reason, and evidence. When faced with contrary evidence that conflicts with those beliefs, we may adjust our position, have a complete paradigm and perspective adjustment, or cling ever tighter to our own preconceptions. Further defense and argument, based on reason and evidence, is not stubbornness or bad behavior....we must be able to think through and discover strengths and flaws in logic, reason, and argument for critical thinking. But there does come a point when simple stubbornness is evident and pure prejudice takes over. We now begin to take pride in our beliefs and there is nothing like pride and prejudice to distort thinking and beliefs. Something for us all to be concerned about personally.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:16 pm +0000
Posts: 926
Location: Nanticoke NY
brooklyn_born wrote:
Agon D. Onter wrote:
Bradly wrote:
"So is the claim that ALL who are subnormal minded can think or pray their way to a normal mind...or just some? Who's who?"


Not all subnormal minds can think or pray their way to normal mind. Some subnormal minds have physical brain damage, or what Revelators call, "Intellectual (mind) death" (see 112:3.3).

Quote:
I had the exact same thought. And if seraphim are able to help (some?) people progress to normal mind, why do we have any subnormal-minded people among us still?


*See above*


I concede. It just makes me gnash my teeth to wonder why you must insist such phenomena has occurred, those who have potential to enter eternal life with the Universal Father who suspended and thereby nullified such pursuit? That is a big pointer that hard to have any pride about being correct about. I think you might be focusing on this fact too much: when in reality you might be misjudging those who you think have no chance at eternal life. The third group, those who had the potential, and can ask to receive eternal salvation: is everything. If you are someone with undoubted survival capability, how is it in your mind that you have not mercy to show others their ultimate potential?

_________________
to the Underlaying Unity of All Life so that the Voice of Intuition may guide Us closer to Our Common Keeper


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2014 5:02 am +0000
Posts: 910
Location: Brooklyn NY
I think every human has potential to resurrect, just not at the same dispensation. I think people with brain damage can still be salvaged. Just not within the dispensations of normally minded people. I think brain damaged people who the universe considers "dead" can be rehabilitated on the nursery sphere. There they are afforded opportunity to be indwelt and grow a soul.


SEla_Kelly wrote:
brooklyn_born wrote:
Agon D. Onter wrote:
Bradly wrote:
"So is the claim that ALL who are subnormal minded can think or pray their way to a normal mind...or just some? Who's who?"


Not all subnormal minds can think or pray their way to normal mind. Some subnormal minds have physical brain damage, or what Revelators call, "Intellectual (mind) death" (see 112:3.3).

Quote:
I had the exact same thought. And if seraphim are able to help (some?) people progress to normal mind, why do we have any subnormal-minded people among us still?


*See above*


I concede. It just makes me gnash my teeth to wonder why you must insist such phenomena has occurred, those who have potential to enter eternal life with the Universal Father who suspended and thereby nullified such pursuit? That is a big pointer that hard to have any pride about being correct about. I think you might be focusing on this fact too much: when in reality you might be misjudging those who you think have no chance at eternal life. The third group, those who had the potential, and can ask to receive eternal salvation: is everything. If you are someone with undoubted survival capability, how is it in your mind that you have not mercy to show others their ultimate potential?

_________________
BB, the Urantian Gnostic606


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:16 pm +0000
Posts: 926
Location: Nanticoke NY
Okay. That is a good hope. But with the dreadful issue of a soul suspended from the intellectual life of one's body, I know sometimes occurring from accidental circumstances beyond one's control. Most people cannot make such excuses, being responsible for the mind each has. When I grew up, I had my tennis coach and high school principle implore me, personally approach me, "took me under their wing" to explain to me, how sacrosanct the human body really is, in connection with the spirit of God.

When it comes to delicate geniuses living off the grid and seeking the psychedellic experience in and of itself, human action on a personal level, if not choices, often contribute to injuries of the nervous system. My friend Fox told me about her brother Stephen, who moved onto a commune in Virginia 10 years ago. What happened was that Stephen went to North Dakota went to the Rainbow Festival a while ago, and ended up in a psyche ward for 3 years because he became disoriented. I actually met him once and although he wore a skirt, I had the impression that he still had a cogent mind. Often, it is difficult to sift through what is actually considered brain injury, and acute incidence that reflect traumatic experiences, in the brain of the human individual. The trauma of consequences: because of what can go wrong (like a car accident), or simply how you can be seen by authority, this is what often creates so much fear, that individuals often decide or allow themselves to "go with the flow", and such a peter pan gathering society, the neotribalism, is losing the legal battle how to appropriate "sweat lodge experiences", psychologically rehabilitative retreats, with the new commercial pharmacies, an institution forged in legalese and material medicine, where a person's "Life Alert" technology prompt when it is time to take dose of perscription, with stipulation that the individual must eat and inject medication on fixed cycles. TBH I worry about people a lot, but I am also worried that to dictate perscriptions "does not make people better", that such form of legal regulation is like a "subnormal" institution superimposing its protocols on personal experience or religion, superimposing habits that the human individual knows are not helping the mind on an ultimate level, "which he finds distasteful", and if a person actually knows better, still confronted with social pressure to appease the regulatory environments.

When I was in a psych ward myself, I was stuck in there because of my honesty. The treatment team would not release me until I told them "realistic goals for progress", so my aunts and parents told me, that I should forge a narrative because if I showed it to them they would assume that I am normal healthy, and then the treatment team of the psych ward would release me back into the community. But also, I was encumbered by a legal battle, an ultimatum that drugs would be injected into my body system via court order. This was a type of chemical that literally gave me tardive dyskinesia and inhibited my overall nervous system. Essentially, the purpose of the drug I was injected was not to facilitate my mind function but actually to be shut down so that I am not a risk to society. So when I was out on my own, I still had this order from the state of NY, to take my medication, but the truth is I could not will my hand to put such a substance into my own mouth (this is the actual private narrative I created) and I lied to my dad for three months because he was the one who checking to take it every day. It seemed like I had more truth, even scientific truth from socialisation growing up in Catholic environment, than as an actual prisoner in the psych ward, an well-regulated environment, totally isolated within society. That place was so strange to me because for instance the educational wing was called "the Mall" because experts believed that clients liked shopping malls better than schools, would be more willing to go to a mall to receive education than a school or a classroom haha.

_________________
to the Underlaying Unity of All Life so that the Voice of Intuition may guide Us closer to Our Common Keeper


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 34 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Registered users: Google Feedfetcher


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You can post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group