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Here's a link to BB's topic on "Soul Possession" where he made many of the same 'arguments' about TA abandonment of souls. Last year it was about detachment after death and souls roaming the universe susceptible to take over by evil spirits. This year is more of the same claims and his beliefs which are not supported by the text. Don't know what the motive or intent are here except to promote ideas which confuse and challenge the actual contents of the UB and justify those by claiming all opinions are equal and equally welcome here. Even the opinion that the "moon is made of cheese" per Agon's tongue in cheek reference. When one claims the UB's presentations are mere metaphors subject to interpretive opinionations and not literal in their intent, then anything goes I guess.

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katroofjebus wrote:
It might be useful information to know that the mortal mind is an umbrella term which includes multiple levels. One level is the lower material mind the other is higher morontial mind. Both are part of mortal mind, hence two minds in one mortal. The material mind has two levels of consciousness, the conscious level and the subconscious level. The morontia mind has two levels of consciousness, the embryonic soul conscious level and the superconscious level where the Thought Adjuster dwells. The adjutants are the substance of the material mind, the Holy Spirit is the essence of the soul. The phrase "material mind" has to do with the lower adjutant mind; the phrase "mortal mind" has to do with a dual mind containing both the lower adjutant material mind and the higher superminded soul and its associated Thought Adjuster.

The Thought Adjuster does live in the mortal mind, but he indwells the superconscious level of the morontia portion of the mind called the soul. For the most part the influence of a Thought Adjuster is a superconscious experience except when he is able to influence the lower material mind through the liaison of the supermind. The supermind overlaps the chief adjutant, number seven, who then coordinates with the other six. The supermind is the soul conscious level where materially conscious decisions worthy of spiritization are lodged, the liaison zone of material-spiritual interrelation where the seventh adjutant reaches up and the Holy Spirit reaches down to interrelate our Mother Creator with the material creature. And every personality with a soul is, at minimum, partially conscious of having one so these registrations in the supermind are placed consciously in the supermind by the overlapping higher adjutant mind.

Part of the confusion may lie in the fact that some people may not be aware that the soul of mortal man exists within the mortal mind. I think many picture the soul as something outside of the mind, but it is within. If you think about it, it has to be within if mortals have dual minds and if conflicts between the two result in mind disruption. Here are two references which state the soul is part of the mortal mind:

(147.3) 13:1.22 The secrets of Ascendington include the mystery of the gradual and certain building up in the material and mortal mind of a spiritual and potentially immortal counterpart of character and identity. This phenomenon constitutes one of the most perplexing mysteries of the universes — the evolution of an immortal soul within the mind of a mortal and material creature.

(404.3) 36:6.5 The survival of mortal creatures is wholly predicated on the evolvement of an immortal soul within the mortal mind.

Moreover and lest it be denied, Jesus describes the superconscious level as being IN the soul:

(1475.3) 133:4.10 To the traveler from Britain he said: "My brother, I perceive you are seeking for truth, and I suggest that the spirit of the Father of all truth may chance to dwell within you. Did you ever sincerely endeavor to talk with the spirit of your own soul? Such a thing is indeed difficult and seldom yields consciousness of success; but every honest attempt of the material mind to communicate with its indwelling spirit meets with certain success, notwithstanding that the majority of all such magnificent human experiences must long remain as superconscious registrations in the souls of such God-knowing mortals."

In the reference below Jesus describes the dual mind. The lower mind is the intellectual and moral foundation; the higher mind is the associated superstructure of the spiritual nature, the higher re-created and transformed mind, or the soul. All of this is within one mortal mind.

(1738.1) 156:5.2 Let every man make sure that the intellectual and moral foundations of character are such as will adequately support the superstructure of the enlarging and ennobling spiritual nature, which is thus to transform the mortal mind and then, in association with that re-created mind, is to achieve the evolvement of the soul of immortal destiny. Your spirit nature — the jointly created soul — is a living growth, but the mind and morals of the individual are the soil from which these higher manifestations of human development and divine destiny must spring. The soil of the evolving soul is human and material, but the destiny of this combined creature of mind and spirit is spiritual and divine.”

Here is a collection of references which indicate the Thought Adjuster indwells the soul.

(1226.3) 112:0.15 13. Personality may survive mortal death with identity in the surviving soul. The Adjuster and the personality are changeless; the relationship between them (in the soul) is nothing but change, continuing evolution; and if this change (growth) ceased, the soul would cease.

(1245.1) 113:4.1 The guardian seraphim are not mind, though they do spring from the same source that also gives origin to mortal mind, the Creative Spirit. Seraphim are mind stimulators; they continually seek to promote circle-making decisions in human mind. They do this, not as does the Adjuster, operating from within and through the soul, but rather from the outside inward, working through the social, ethical, and moral environment of human beings. Seraphim are not the divine Adjuster lure of the Universal Father, but they do function as the personal agency of the ministry of the Infinite Spirit.

(1950.3) 180:5.8 But the highest realization and the truest interpretation of the golden rule consists in the consciousness of the spirit of the truth of the enduring and living reality of such a divine declaration. The true cosmic meaning of this rule of universal relationship is revealed only in its spiritual realization, in the interpretation of the law of conduct by the spirit of the Son to the spirit of the Father that indwells the soul of mortal man. And when such spirit-led mortals realize the true meaning of this golden rule, they are filled to overflowing with the assurance of citizenship in a friendly universe, and their ideals of spirit reality are satisfied only when they love their fellows as Jesus loved us all, and that is the reality of the realization of the love of God.

(1475.3) 133:4.10 To the traveler from Britain he said: "My brother, I perceive you are seeking for truth, and I suggest that the spirit of the Father of all truth may chance to dwell within you. Did you ever sincerely endeavor to talk with the spirit of your own soul?

(1474.4) 133:4.4 To the earnest leader of the Mithraic cult he said: "You do well to seek for a religion of eternal salvation, but you err to go in quest of such a glorious truth among man-made mysteries and human philosophies. Know you not that the mystery of eternal salvation dwells within your own soul? Do you not know that the God of heaven has sent his spirit to live within you, and that this spirit will lead all truth-loving and God-serving mortals out of this life and through the portals of death up to the eternal heights of light where God waits to receive his children? And never forget: You who know God are the sons of God if you truly yearn to be like him."

(1474.6) 133:4.6 To the Greek contractor and builder he said: "My friend, as you build the material structures of men, grow a spiritual character in the similitude of the divine spirit within your soul. Do not let your achievement as a temporal builder outrun your attainment as a spiritual son of the kingdom of heaven. While you build the mansions of time for another, neglect not to secure your title to the mansions of eternity for yourself. Ever remember, there is a city whose foundations are righteousness and truth, and whose builder and maker is God."

(1588.4) 141:2.1 And the Father also rules within the hearts of his children on earth by the spirit which he has sent to live within the souls of mortal men.

(1105.4) 101:1.7 The higher and superphilosophic wisdom of such enlightened and disciplined individuals ultimately instructs them that to doubt God or distrust his goodness would be to prove untrue to the realest and deepest thing within the human mind and soul — the divine Adjuster.


I am wondering the indwelling place then in humans without souls as described in Paper 109. Evidently a soul is not a prerequisite for all Adjuster indwellings. So then Adjusters reside in mortal mind but not in soul? But in the soul of the mortal mind when there is one? I do find soul as a distinct element of mind quite reasonable....where else? It is also mind - morontia mind.

109:1.4 (1196.1) Adjusters pass through a definite developmental career in the mortal mind; they achieve a reality of attainment which is eternally theirs. They progressively acquire Adjuster skill and ability as a result of any and all contacts with the material races, regardless of the survival or nonsurvival of their particular mortal subjects. They are also equal partners of the human mind in fostering the evolution of the immortal soul of survival capacity.

109:3.1 (1197.3) The character of the detailed work of Mystery Monitors varies in accordance with the nature of their assignments, as to whether or not they are liaison or fusion Adjusters. Some Adjusters are merely loaned for the temporal lifetimes of their subjects; others are bestowed as personality candidates with permission for everlasting fusion if their subjects survive. There is also a slight variation in their work among the different planetary types as well as in different systems and universes. But, on the whole, their labors are remarkably uniform, more so than are the duties of any of the created orders of celestial beings.

109:3.2 (1197.4) On certain primitive worlds (the series one group) the Adjuster indwells the mind of the creature as an experiential training, chiefly for self-culture and progressive development. Virgin Adjusters are usually sent to such worlds during the earlier times when primitive men are arriving in the valley of decision, but when comparatively few will elect to ascend the moral heights beyond the hills of self-mastery and character acquirement to attain the higher levels of emerging spirituality. (Many, however, who fail of Adjuster fusion do survive as Spirit-fused ascenders.) The Adjusters receive valuable training and acquire wonderful experience in transient association with primitive minds, and they are able subsequently to utilize this experience for the benefit of superior beings on other worlds. Nothing of survival value is ever lost in all the wide universe.

109:3.3 (1197.5) On another type of world (the series two group) the Adjusters are merely loaned to mortal beings. Here the Monitors can never attain fusion personality through such indwelling, but they do afford great help to their human subjects during the mortal lifetime, far more than they are able to give to Urantia mortals. The Adjusters are here loaned to the mortal creatures for a single life span as patterns for their higher spiritual attainment, temporary helpers in the intriguing task of perfecting a survival character. The Adjusters do not return after natural death; these surviving mortals attain eternal life through Spirit fusion.

109:3.7 (1198.2) In many of the early evolutionary races of Urantia, three groups of beings existed. There were those who were so animalistic that they were utterly lacking in Adjuster capacity. There were those who exhibited undoubted capacity for Adjusters and promptly received them when the age of moral responsibility was attained. There was a third class who occupied a borderline position; they had capacity for Adjuster reception, but the Monitors could only indwell the mind on the personal petition of the individual.

109:3.8 (1198.3) But with those beings who are virtually disqualified for survival by disinheritance through the agency of unfit and inferior ancestors, many a virgin Adjuster has served a valuable preliminary experience in contacting evolutionary mind and thus has become better qualified for a subsequent assignment to a higher type of mind on some other world.


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Sorry - I call foul here;

Quote:
BB: Jesus H. Christ, Bradly! Wow. Dude, for the sake of peace, let's agree on the absolute fact we can't agree on this subject! I ask we just bring this particular discussion between ourselves to a close because we are not seeing eye to eye. There is no point to continue the discussion other than to be destructive against one another; we are not building as we cannot find common ground. There... is... no... point... to.. continue. Can't you see this?????

Agon: I agree with BB.

FanofVan: Me too.


And then you get your last word in in with that old post. And then imply some sinister intent. Is that the way we model brotherhood here, fanofVan?


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fanofVan wrote:
I am wondering the indwelling place then in humans without souls as described in Paper 109. Evidently a soul is not a prerequisite for all Adjuster indwellings. So then Adjusters reside in mortal mind but not in soul?


I just reread Paper 109 and there is no description of liaison Adjusters indwelling people without souls. Did you read that elsewhere because there is nothing at all about soulless individuals in the Paper. Perhaps you speculated? As we all know, Adjusters cannot indwell or "invade" unless the mortal mind has been prepared for them. The preparation involves all seven adjutants and encircuitment by the Holy Spirit, soul intelligence, hence soul. We've already been over this several times now but I would be happy to go over it again if need be. Suffice it to say, if an Adjuster invades a mind, it is invading the soul which has been prepared for him by the adjutants and Holy Spirit. The soul is within the mortal mind, which I already supported with references in my last post.

For convenience here is a repeat of the reference to mortal mind preparation for Adjuster indwelling which involves the Holy Spirit, followed by the references which explain that the Holy Spirit is the supermind of the soul, or soul intelligence. Also, a reference to the fact that the supermind is the liaison zone between the material and spiritual levels of the mortal mind, the two minds, adjutant and soul. And finally the references which places the soul within the mortal mind.

(1187.1) 108:2.2 The Adjusters cannot invade the mortal mind until it has been duly prepared by the indwelling ministry of the adjutant mind-spirits and encircuited in the Holy Spirit.
(1003.4) 92:0.4 3. The Holy Spirit--this is the initial supermind bestowal, and it unfailingly appears in all bona fide human personalities.
(1108:01) 101:3.2 Spiritual reason, soul intelligence, is the endowment of the Holy Spirit, the Creative Spirit’s gift to man
(1208.2) 110:5.3 During the slumber season the Adjuster attempts to achieve only that which the will of the indwelt personality has previously fully approved by the decisions and choosings which were made during times of fully wakeful consciousness, and which have thereby become lodged in the realms of the supermind, the liaison domain of human and divine interrelationship.
(404.3) 36:6.5 The survival of mortal creatures is wholly predicated on the evolvement of an immortal soul within the mortal mind.
(147.3) 13:1.22This phenomenon constitutes one of the most perplexing mysteries of the universes — the evolution of an immortal soul within the mind of a mortal and material creature.


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Thanks kat. While I remain somewhat confused about the liaison and temporary and experiential forms of endowment without chance of fusion, I appreciate your help and posted text.

Also, do you think the Holy Spirit might work in the child's and primitive mind for some time prior to the birth of soul, nurturing and preparing the mind for that birth to come?

Doesn't the encircuitment and preparations of the material mind and the benefits of the pre-revelation, evolutionary religious experience take some time prior to the birth of soul?


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fanofVan wrote:
Also, do you think the Holy Spirit might work in the child's and primitive mind for some time prior to the birth of soul, nurturing and preparing the mind for that birth to come?


As already explained, once the Holy Spirit encircuits the mind, in the case of modern man, the mind is instantly indwelled by the Thought Adjuster along with the Spirit of Truth. If the Holy Spirit has aught to do within the mind of a child, that child has a soul and soul intelligence.

As already explained, it is the adjutants working within the pre-soul mind of the child "nurturing and preparing" it for soul birth. Just because the adjutants make contact with a developing mind doesn't mean they have achieved their goal within that mind. They continue to evolve within the mind of the child until the child is capable and willing to make a moral decision, which triggers all the events described as the seventh psychic/cosmic circle.

fanofVan wrote:
Doesn't the encircuitment and preparations of the material mind and the benefits of the pre-revelation, evolutionary religious experience take some time prior to the birth of soul?


Sorry. I don't know what you mean. Are we talking about an individual or the entire human race here?


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I mean the evolutionary religious experience which naturally precedes the revelatory phase of the Adjuster. There is a season for faith experience and faith assurance prior to the season of truth and truth assurance.

It appears we have left the original topic here. Does everyone now agree that there is no irreversible detachment of the TA from any mortal mind except by the irreversible death of soul first? And by irreversible we are told to mean irrevocable, no second souls or second Adjusters...self erasure is permanent, if not easily accomplished.

Any and all other detachment by the TA is temporary. They do not abandon mortals due to criminal acts or sin or sickness or imprisonment or violations of church doctrines and they do not return due to repentance (as they do not leave to begin with). And Pentecost is irrelevant to all related issues except it coincided with the material death of Jesus and the release of the Spirit of Truth to Urantia.


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fanofVan wrote:
I mean the evolutionary religious experience which naturally precedes the revelatory phase of the Adjuster. There is a season for faith experience and faith assurance prior to the season of truth and truth assurance.


I agree any further discussion on this matter belongs in your Question and Answer sub-forum thread. In the meantime, consider the fact that evolutionary religion includes revelatory religion. Additionally, the assurance of truth is a morontia experience which requires a soul.

(1010.6) 92:6.2 On Urantia, evolutionary and revelatory religion are progressing side by side while they blend and coalesce into the diversified theologic systems found in the world in the times of the inditement of these papers.


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