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Yep. Nor can one repent after becoming soul-dead. It is irrevocable.

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Like I said, it is possible to be Adjuster-abandoned yet continue living a physical life.


So, back to being obvious about the fact that soul-death is a thing. We all know that. It's clear as day in the book.


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Agon D. Onter wrote:
Yep. Nor can one repent after becoming soul-dead. It is irrevocable.

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Like I said, it is possible to be Adjuster-abandoned yet continue living a physical life.


So, back to being obvious about the fact that soul-death is a thing. We all know that. It's clear as day in the book.


But it was stated in this thread, I don't know by who, that the premise of the title is false. Here is the title:

"Irreversible detachment of TA while person is still alive"

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Agon D. Onter wrote:
Yep. Nor can one repent after becoming soul-dead. It is irrevocable.

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Like I said, it is possible to be Adjuster-abandoned yet continue living a physical life.


So, back to being obvious about the fact that soul-death is a thing. We all know that. It's clear as day in the book.


Agreed...irrefutable. Even in this brief life it is possible to sufficiently embrace iniquity and reject life and love and God to destroy a soul and release the TA. All such ones are considered dead and are already as if they had never been. And no do overs for such an irrevocable choice.


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brooklyn_born wrote:
Agon D. Onter wrote:
Yep. Nor can one repent after becoming soul-dead. It is irrevocable.

Quote:
Like I said, it is possible to be Adjuster-abandoned yet continue living a physical life.


So, back to being obvious about the fact that soul-death is a thing. We all know that. It's clear as day in the book.


But it was stated in this thread, I don't know by who, that the premise of the title is false. Here is the title:

"Irreversible detachment of TA while person is still alive"


But not for the reasons.or causes you claim and no second TA no matter what day of the year.


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fanofVan wrote:
no second TA no matter what day of the year.


What second TA are you referring to? I have no idea what you are talking about.

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katroofjebus wrote:
Agon D. Onter wrote:
In soul death, the detachment is permanent/ irrevocable.


That's because the Thought Adjusters indwell the soul. If the soul is dead there's no place to dwell.


This contradicts the text too. The mortal mind and not the soul is the host of rhe Adjuster as msny quotes clearly say as posted on another topic about Evolutionary Religion.

110:1.1 (1203.3) Adjusters should not be thought of as living in the material brains of human beings. They are not organic parts of the physical creatures of the realms. The Thought Adjuster may more properly be envisaged as indwelling the mortal mind of man rather than as existing within the confines of a single physical organ. And indirectly and unrecognized the Adjuster is constantly communicating with the human subject, especially during those sublime experiences of the worshipful contact of mind with spirit in the superconsciousness.

110:1.5 (1204.3) The Adjuster remains with you in all disaster and through every sickness which does not wholly destroy the mentality. But how unkind knowingly to defile or otherwise deliberately to pollute the physical body, which must serve as the earthly tabernacle of this marvelous gift from God. All physical poisons greatly retard the efforts of the Adjuster to exalt the material mind, while the mental poisons of fear, anger, envy, jealousy, suspicion, and intolerance likewise tremendously interfere with the spiritual progress of the evolving soul.

110:2.1 (1204.5) When Thought Adjusters indwell human minds...

110:2.4 (1205.2) Adjusters work in the spheres of the higher levels of the human mind, unceasingly seeking to produce morontia duplicates of every concept of the mortal intellect. There are, therefore, two realities which impinge upon, and are centered in, the human mind circuits: one, a mortal self evolved from the original plans of the Life Carriers, the other, an immortal entity from the high spheres of Divinington, an indwelling gift from God. But the mortal self is also a personal self; it has personality.

108:6.2 (1193.1) No matter what the previous status of the inhabitants of a world, subsequent to the bestowal of a divine Son and after the bestowal of the Spirit of Truth upon all humans, the Adjusters flock to such a world to indwell the minds of all normal will creatures. Following the completion of the mission of a Paradise bestowal Son, these Monitors truly become the “kingdom of heaven within you.” Through the bestowal of the divine gifts the Father makes the closest possible approach to sin and evil, for it is literally true that the Adjuster must coexist in the mortal mind even in the very midst of human unrighteousness. The indwelling Adjusters are particularly tormented by those thoughts which are purely sordid and selfish; they are distressed by irreverence for that which is beautiful and divine, and they are virtually thwarted in their work by many of man’s foolish animal fears and childish anxieties.

We read also in Paper 109 that many Adjusters receive valuable experience indwelling the minds of mortals without soul or the probability of survival as further evidence of them indwelling mortal 'minds'...not souls.

The co-parent of soul, our Adjuster never abandons a mind with soul or of any indwelling untill the mind elects to terminate soul.

Many Adjusters abide in mortal minds without souls too as described in 109 which adequately disproves this recurring claim of kat.

Lots of claims here without evidence....even if claimed with certitude. :roll:


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brooklyn_born wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
no second TA no matter what day of the year.


What second TA are you referring to? I have no idea what you are talking about.


Come, come...let's be reasonable and intellectually honest and apply some basic logic here!

You claim: "A rapist or murderer certainly is not indwelt based on my understanding until they come to repentance and then the doors of Pentecost are open to them."

There are no 8 year old murderers or rapists. Children receive their Adjusters prior to age 6 on average....therefore, your claim is that rapists and murderers lose their TA's due to violation of particular crimes and creeds of humanity - church or state. And also claim above that they may receive a second TA by repentance related somehow to the holy day of Pentecost.

You then claim: "Pentecost is celebrated 50 days after Passover. This occurs every year. Every year an unspiritual person has opportunity to get encircuited and receive a TA. This is my position, so you have an idea of my frame of thought."

And now you do not understand your own claim? Your scenario is literally impossible without a second TA indwelling. That doesn't ever happen according to the text...neither does the abandonment of TA's from mind....not unless soul, mind, or body/mind death occurs. Only then.

My position is that soul death is quite unusual as its requirements are quite stringent and difficult and cannot be caused by ignorance, immaturity, confusion, doubt, disbelief, or the animal nature of mortal borns. You have offered no evidence or quotes to support the premise above as to what behaviors or choices kill the soul. Neither have you offered any evidence or text regarding irreversible detachment of TA while people live due to any other cause besides soul death. Nor have you offered any evidence or text in support of the idea that mortals can have 2 or more TA's indwell them at different times due to sin and subsequent repentance.

You have also claimed here that there are souls which survive without Adjusters that are subject to indwelling by evil spirits (whatever those are) and neither of those claims were ever supported by text either. You are free to have your opinions and beliefs BB but you are not allowed, by the rules here, to declare the UB teaches and says that which it does not say. Misrepresentation and misstating the text is not protected speech here.

As we are here as students, it is not so uncommon to misstate or misunderstand either. I hope you and all of us are gaining knowledge and understanding of the teachings we are here to study and learn together. Peace.

8)


Last edited by fanofVan on Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:39 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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Yes, and don't forget that BB later back-pedaled and said that the TA can 'delay' indwelling if the mind is not spiritual enough. Implying that rapists and murderers are not indwelt as children because their TA knows they will murder later in life and so waits for them to repent before indwelling them. Which would be funny if it weren't so dark (being that it means a fragment of God allows someone to murder before allowing the gift of God's spirit to indwell that person. What a world!)


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I asked you to show where I claimed a person can be indwelt twice. Either you made that up or were in error with your interpretation of my words, or just want to argue for argument's sake. The discussion is no longer productive. At this stage we're just going in circles repeating ourselves. We can agree to disagree.



fanofVan wrote:
brooklyn_born wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
no second TA no matter what day of the year.


What second TA are you referring to? I have no idea what you are talking about.


Come, come...let's be reasonable and apply some basic logic here!

You claim: "A rapist or murderer certainly is not indwelt based on my understanding until they come to repentance and then the doors of Pentecost are open to them."

There are no 8 year old murderers or rapists. Children receive their Adjusters prior to age 6 on average....therefore, your claim is that rapists and murderers lose their TA's due to violation of particular crimes and creeds of humanity - church or state. And also claim above that they may receive a second TA by repentance related somehow to the holy day of Pentecost.

You then claim: "Pentecost is celebrated 50 days after Passover. This occurs every year. Every year an unspiritual person has opportunity to get encircuited and receive a TA. This is my position, so you have an idea of my frame of thought."

And now you do not understand your own claim? Your scenario is literally impossible without a second TA indwelling. That doesn't ever happen according to the text...neither does the abandonment of TA's from mind....not unless soul, mind, or body/mind death occurs. Only then.

My position is that soul death is quite unusual as its requirements are quite stringent and difficult and cannot be caused by ignorance, immaturity, confusion, doubt, disbelief, or the animal nature of mortal borns. You have offered no evidence or quotes to support the premise above as to what behaviors or choices kill the soul. Neither have you offered any evidence or text regarding irreversible detachment of TA while people live due to any other cause besides soul death. Nor have you offered any evidence or text in support of the idea that mortals can have 2 or more TA's indwell them at different times due to sin and subsequent repentance.

You have also claimed here that there are souls which survive without Adjusters that are subject to indwelling by evil spirits (whatever those are) and neither of those claims were ever supported by text either. You are free to have your opinions and beliefs BB but you are not allowed, by the rules here, to declare the UB teaches and says that which it does not say. Misrepresentation and misstating the text is not protected speech here.

As we are here as students, it is not so uncommon to misstate or misunderstand either. I hope you and all of us are gaining knowledge and understanding of the teachings we are here to study and learn together. Peace.

8)

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Agon D. Onter wrote:
Yes, and don't forget that BB later back-pedaled and said that the TA can 'delay' indwelling if the mind is not spiritual enough. Implying that rapists and murderers are not indwelt as children because their TA knows they will murder later in life and so waits for them to repent before indwelling them. Which would be funny if it weren't so dark (being that it means a fragment of God allows someone to murder before allowing the gift of God's spirit to indwell that person. What a world!)


This discussion is no longer productive. We can agree to disagree.

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brooklyn_born wrote:
Agon D. Onter wrote:
Yes, and don't forget that BB later back-pedaled and said that the TA can 'delay' indwelling if the mind is not spiritual enough. Implying that rapists and murderers are not indwelt as children because their TA knows they will murder later in life and so waits for them to repent before indwelling them. Which would be funny if it weren't so dark (being that it means a fragment of God allows someone to murder before allowing the gift of God's spirit to indwell that person. What a world!)


This discussion is no longer productive. We can agree to disagree.


What do we disagree on? I thought you were denying the claim of second Adjuster? Do people lose Adjusters to sin? Do they then regain new ones upon repentance of sin? Or do Adjusters delay and defer arrival in mortal mind because they can and do predict future sins? Which sins might cause detachment or deferral?? It must be one or the other...choose one...or both for that matter.

No one here is asking for your agreement BB....we are here to learn what the UB teaches. It certainly does not teach ANY of your claims here...so it is essentially you and the UB which are in profound disagreement. Believe whatever you wish but don't say the UB says what it does not say....post it or its not there to be posted. Also, you say what you say, even when you deny saying what you clearly wrote and posted. We can all read here.


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fanofVan wrote:
What do we disagree on?


Jesus H. Christ, Bradly! Wow. Dude, for the sake of peace, let's agree on the absolute fact we can't agree on this subject! I ask we just bring this particular discussion between ourselves to a close because we are not seeing eye to eye. There is no point to continue the discussion other than to be destructive against one another; we are not building as we cannot find common ground. There... is... no... point... to.. continue. Can't you see this?????

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Last edited by brooklyn_born on Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:00 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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I agree with BB.


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Me too.


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It might be useful information to know that the mortal mind is an umbrella term which includes multiple levels. One level is the lower material mind the other is higher morontial mind. Both are part of mortal mind, hence two minds in one mortal. The material mind has two levels of consciousness, the conscious level and the subconscious level. The morontia mind has two levels of consciousness, the embryonic soul conscious level and the superconscious level where the Thought Adjuster dwells. The adjutants are the substance of the material mind, the Holy Spirit is the essence of the soul. The phrase "material mind" has to do with the lower adjutant mind; the phrase "mortal mind" has to do with a dual mind containing both the lower adjutant material mind and the higher superminded soul and its associated Thought Adjuster.

The Thought Adjuster does live in the mortal mind, but he indwells the superconscious level of the morontia portion of the mind called the soul. For the most part the influence of a Thought Adjuster is a superconscious experience except when he is able to influence the lower material mind through the liaison of the supermind. The supermind overlaps the chief adjutant, number seven, who then coordinates with the other six. The supermind is the soul conscious level where materially conscious decisions worthy of spiritization are lodged, the liaison zone of material-spiritual interrelation where the seventh adjutant reaches up and the Holy Spirit reaches down to interrelate our Mother Creator with the material creature. And every personality with a soul is, at minimum, partially conscious of having one so these registrations in the supermind are placed consciously in the supermind by the overlapping higher adjutant mind.

Part of the confusion may lie in the fact that some people may not be aware that the soul of mortal man exists within the mortal mind. I think many picture the soul as something outside of the mind, but it is within. If you think about it, it has to be within if mortals have dual minds and if conflicts between the two result in mind disruption. Here are two references which state the soul is part of the mortal mind:

(147.3) 13:1.22 The secrets of Ascendington include the mystery of the gradual and certain building up in the material and mortal mind of a spiritual and potentially immortal counterpart of character and identity. This phenomenon constitutes one of the most perplexing mysteries of the universes — the evolution of an immortal soul within the mind of a mortal and material creature.

(404.3) 36:6.5 The survival of mortal creatures is wholly predicated on the evolvement of an immortal soul within the mortal mind.

Moreover and lest it be denied, Jesus describes the superconscious level as being IN the soul:

(1475.3) 133:4.10 To the traveler from Britain he said: "My brother, I perceive you are seeking for truth, and I suggest that the spirit of the Father of all truth may chance to dwell within you. Did you ever sincerely endeavor to talk with the spirit of your own soul? Such a thing is indeed difficult and seldom yields consciousness of success; but every honest attempt of the material mind to communicate with its indwelling spirit meets with certain success, notwithstanding that the majority of all such magnificent human experiences must long remain as superconscious registrations in the souls of such God-knowing mortals."

In the reference below Jesus describes the dual mind. The lower mind is the intellectual and moral foundation; the higher mind is the associated superstructure of the spiritual nature, the higher re-created and transformed mind, or the soul. All of this is within one mortal mind.

(1738.1) 156:5.2 Let every man make sure that the intellectual and moral foundations of character are such as will adequately support the superstructure of the enlarging and ennobling spiritual nature, which is thus to transform the mortal mind and then, in association with that re-created mind, is to achieve the evolvement of the soul of immortal destiny. Your spirit nature — the jointly created soul — is a living growth, but the mind and morals of the individual are the soil from which these higher manifestations of human development and divine destiny must spring. The soil of the evolving soul is human and material, but the destiny of this combined creature of mind and spirit is spiritual and divine.”

Here is a collection of references which indicate the Thought Adjuster indwells the soul.

(1226.3) 112:0.15 13. Personality may survive mortal death with identity in the surviving soul. The Adjuster and the personality are changeless; the relationship between them (in the soul) is nothing but change, continuing evolution; and if this change (growth) ceased, the soul would cease.

(1245.1) 113:4.1 The guardian seraphim are not mind, though they do spring from the same source that also gives origin to mortal mind, the Creative Spirit. Seraphim are mind stimulators; they continually seek to promote circle-making decisions in human mind. They do this, not as does the Adjuster, operating from within and through the soul, but rather from the outside inward, working through the social, ethical, and moral environment of human beings. Seraphim are not the divine Adjuster lure of the Universal Father, but they do function as the personal agency of the ministry of the Infinite Spirit.

(1950.3) 180:5.8 But the highest realization and the truest interpretation of the golden rule consists in the consciousness of the spirit of the truth of the enduring and living reality of such a divine declaration. The true cosmic meaning of this rule of universal relationship is revealed only in its spiritual realization, in the interpretation of the law of conduct by the spirit of the Son to the spirit of the Father that indwells the soul of mortal man. And when such spirit-led mortals realize the true meaning of this golden rule, they are filled to overflowing with the assurance of citizenship in a friendly universe, and their ideals of spirit reality are satisfied only when they love their fellows as Jesus loved us all, and that is the reality of the realization of the love of God.

(1475.3) 133:4.10 To the traveler from Britain he said: "My brother, I perceive you are seeking for truth, and I suggest that the spirit of the Father of all truth may chance to dwell within you. Did you ever sincerely endeavor to talk with the spirit of your own soul?

(1474.4) 133:4.4 To the earnest leader of the Mithraic cult he said: "You do well to seek for a religion of eternal salvation, but you err to go in quest of such a glorious truth among man-made mysteries and human philosophies. Know you not that the mystery of eternal salvation dwells within your own soul? Do you not know that the God of heaven has sent his spirit to live within you, and that this spirit will lead all truth-loving and God-serving mortals out of this life and through the portals of death up to the eternal heights of light where God waits to receive his children? And never forget: You who know God are the sons of God if you truly yearn to be like him."

(1474.6) 133:4.6 To the Greek contractor and builder he said: "My friend, as you build the material structures of men, grow a spiritual character in the similitude of the divine spirit within your soul. Do not let your achievement as a temporal builder outrun your attainment as a spiritual son of the kingdom of heaven. While you build the mansions of time for another, neglect not to secure your title to the mansions of eternity for yourself. Ever remember, there is a city whose foundations are righteousness and truth, and whose builder and maker is God."

(1588.4) 141:2.1 And the Father also rules within the hearts of his children on earth by the spirit which he has sent to live within the souls of mortal men.

(1105.4) 101:1.7 The higher and superphilosophic wisdom of such enlightened and disciplined individuals ultimately instructs them that to doubt God or distrust his goodness would be to prove untrue to the realest and deepest thing within the human mind and soul — the divine Adjuster.


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