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BB wrote “The revelation you provide is pre-union with God. ”

Yes, exactly!

You brought up the uncertainty aspect *in the context of the managing the store * (mortal life) example when you wrote: “Were you instructed to engage personal liberty of choice by the store owner when in doubt on what course of action to take?”

So I was staying within that context in referring you to a quote about uncertainty *prior to* the Havona worlds. If we are going to have a rational discussion, you can’t keep changing the context. While here on Urantia, we must “feast on uncertainty” about what is Gods will. Later in our spiritual journey, our will is increasingly more aligned with Gods will, so uncertainty decreases over time.


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I didn't change the context. My point is in pre union with God there is uncertainty of upholding divinity; we see this on the mansion world when many unfused ascending mortals threw their support behind the rebellion. There is uncertainty of divinity in choices mortal free will makes as long as it has not submitted or consecrated (set aside) itself to doing divine will. I used the store analogy to illustrate this.

Agon D. Onter wrote:
BB wrote “The revelation you provide is pre-union with God. ”

Yes, exactly!

You brought up the uncertainty aspect *in the context of the managing the store * (mortal life) example when you wrote: “Were you instructed to engage personal liberty of choice by the store owner when in doubt on what course of action to take?”

So I was staying within that context in referring you to a quote about uncertainty *prior to* the Havona worlds. If we are going to have a rational discussion, you can’t keep changing the context. While here on Urantia, we must “feast on uncertainty” about what is Gods will. Later in our spiritual journey, our will is increasingly more aligned with Gods will, so uncertainty decreases over time.

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Jim George wrote:
I like to think of free will not as something to be obtained and held on to, but as a God designed and freely given tool to be used.


That's exactly right. Free will comes with personality which is a divine gift. There is no free will without personality and there's no personality without free will. Personality is a divine pattern with sovereignty, or power, known as volition. The only thing personality needs to manifest its sovereignty is consciousness, in other words, mind ministry. One can only choose from the options one is conscious of. That's one reason why options increase with widening and deepening cosmic consciousness.

(194.5) 16:8.5 Creature personality is distinguished by two self-manifesting and characteristic phenomena of mortal reactive behavior: self-consciousness and associated relative free will.


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brooklyn_born wrote:
I explain that as we ascend our will increasingly reflects God's will until it is a perfect reflection on paradise when we become "one" with God. I believe the Finaliter stage is when this transformation occurs.


There is a "transformation", as you say, when we come finaliters, and it is described below, but it is a transformation of mind, not a transformation of will. Will cannot be transformed without transforming personality, and personality is unchangeable.

(1182.1) 107:5.5 When a Thought Adjuster is fused with the evolving immortal morontia soul of the surviving human, the mind of the Adjuster can only be identified as persisting apart from the creature’s mind until the ascending mortal attains spirit levels of universe progression.

(1182.2) 107:5.6 Upon the attainment of the finaliter levels of ascendant experience, these spirits of the sixth stage appear to transmute some mind factor representing a union of certain phases of the mortal and Adjuster minds which had previously functioned as liaison between the divine and human phases of such ascending personalities. This experiential mind quality probably "supremacizes" and subsequently augments the experiential endowment of evolutionary Deity — the Supreme Being.

I'm not sure but I think you might be overlooking the fact that we mortals are participating in the evolution of the Supreme. The existential Father on Paradise is not the end of our adventure. We are part of the experiential universes of time and space which means perfecting continues after becoming a finaliter. The references below describe how after achieving finaliter status the Mother Supreme begins to augment the Father Adjuster's input.

(1288.5) 117:6.6 In and through the experience of finaliter attainment the experiential mother qualities of the ascending self become tremendously affected by contact and infusion with the spirit presence of the Eternal Son and the mind presence of the Infinite Spirit. Then, throughout the realms of finaliter activity in the grand universe, there appears a new awakening of the latent mother potential of the Supreme, a new realization of experiential meanings, and a new synthesis of experiential values of the entire ascension career. It appears that this realization of self will continue in the universe careers of the sixth-stage finaliters until the mother inheritance of the Supreme attains to finite synchrony with the Adjuster inheritance of the Father. This intriguing period of grand universe function represents the continuing adult career of the ascendant and perfected mortal.

(1288.6) 117:6.7 Upon the completion of the sixth stage of existence and the entrance upon the seventh and final stage of spirit status, there will probably ensue the advancing ages of enriching experience, ripening wisdom, and divinity realization. In the nature of the finaliter this will probably equal the completed attainment of the mind struggle for spirit self-realization, the completion of the co-ordination of the ascendant man-nature with the divine Adjuster-nature within the limits of finite possibilities. Such a magnificent universe self thus becomes the eternal finaliter son of the Paradise Father as well as the eternal universe child of the Mother Supreme, a universe self qualified to represent both the Father and Mother of universes and personalities in any activity or undertaking pertaining to the finite administration of created, creating, or evolving things and beings.


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What is your interpretation of this revelation within the context of human will?

67:3.7 (756.8) This seven years of waiting was a time of heart searching and soul discipline. Such crises in the affairs of a universe demonstrate the tremendous influence of mind as a factor in spiritual choosing. Education, training, and experience are factors in most of the vital decisions of all evolutionary moral creatures. But it is entirely possible for the indwelling spirit to make direct contact with the decision-determining powers of the human personality so as to empower the fully consecrated will of the creature to perform amazing acts of loyal devotion to the will and the way of the Father in Paradise. And this is just what occurred in the experience of Amadon, the modified human associate of Van.

Also, would TA have empowered the will of this creature had it not consecrated its will fully to God?



katroofjebus wrote:
brooklyn_born wrote:
I explain that as we ascend our will increasingly reflects God's will until it is a perfect reflection on paradise when we become "one" with God. I believe the Finaliter stage is when this transformation occurs.


There is a "transformation", as you say, when we come finaliters, and it is described below, but it is a transformation of mind, not a transformation of will. Will cannot be transformed without transforming personality, and personality is unchangeable.

(1182.1) 107:5.5 When a Thought Adjuster is fused with the evolving immortal morontia soul of the surviving human, the mind of the Adjuster can only be identified as persisting apart from the creature’s mind until the ascending mortal attains spirit levels of universe progression.

(1182.2) 107:5.6 Upon the attainment of the finaliter levels of ascendant experience, these spirits of the sixth stage appear to transmute some mind factor representing a union of certain phases of the mortal and Adjuster minds which had previously functioned as liaison between the divine and human phases of such ascending personalities. This experiential mind quality probably "supremacizes" and subsequently augments the experiential endowment of evolutionary Deity — the Supreme Being.

I'm not sure but I think you might be overlooking the fact that we mortals are participating in the evolution of the Supreme. The existential Father on Paradise is not the end of our adventure. We are part of the experiential universes of time and space which means perfecting continues after becoming a finaliter. The references below describe how after achieving finaliter status the Mother Supreme begins to augment the Father Adjuster's input.

(1288.5) 117:6.6 In and through the experience of finaliter attainment the experiential mother qualities of the ascending self become tremendously affected by contact and infusion with the spirit presence of the Eternal Son and the mind presence of the Infinite Spirit. Then, throughout the realms of finaliter activity in the grand universe, there appears a new awakening of the latent mother potential of the Supreme, a new realization of experiential meanings, and a new synthesis of experiential values of the entire ascension career. It appears that this realization of self will continue in the universe careers of the sixth-stage finaliters until the mother inheritance of the Supreme attains to finite synchrony with the Adjuster inheritance of the Father. This intriguing period of grand universe function represents the continuing adult career of the ascendant and perfected mortal.

(1288.6) 117:6.7 Upon the completion of the sixth stage of existence and the entrance upon the seventh and final stage of spirit status, there will probably ensue the advancing ages of enriching experience, ripening wisdom, and divinity realization. In the nature of the finaliter this will probably equal the completed attainment of the mind struggle for spirit self-realization, the completion of the co-ordination of the ascendant man-nature with the divine Adjuster-nature within the limits of finite possibilities. Such a magnificent universe self thus becomes the eternal finaliter son of the Paradise Father as well as the eternal universe child of the Mother Supreme, a universe self qualified to represent both the Father and Mother of universes and personalities in any activity or undertaking pertaining to the finite administration of created, creating, or evolving things and beings.

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A fully consecrated will is a fully devoted will. A fully devoted will is a will belonging to a personality who has unified its entire selfhood for the purpose of seeking divinity. Seeking divinity in such a situation as Amadon's means a wholehearted desire to become Godlike – man perfecting on earth as God is perfect in heaven. It is an act of loyalty to the Father and his Universe. It's a commitment to live life as a cosmic citizen according to the way of God. God is love and man comprehends love as truth, beauty and goodness – the way of God.

(1431.2) 130:2.7 This was a conference which lasted well into the night, in the course of which the young man requested Jesus to tell him the difference between the will of God and that human mind act of choosing which is also called will. In substance Jesus said: The will of God is the way of God, partnership with the choice of God in the face of any potential alternative. To do the will of God, therefore, is the progressive experience of becoming more and more like God, and God is the source and destiny of all that is good and beautiful and true. The will of man is the way of man, the sum and substance of that which the mortal chooses to be and do. Will is the deliberate choice of a self-conscious being which leads to decision-conduct based on intelligent reflection.

brooklyn_born wrote:
Also, would TA have empowered the will of this creature had it not consecrated its will fully to God?


The Thought Adjuster does this in any situation where the mind of a personality attunes to the pre-mind of the Thought Adjuster and then chooses to act upon it. In this situation the personality is the only member of the partnership who has will with the power to act out a decision in reality. The Thought Adjuster's pre-will can only be expressed by the personality who chooses to act it out and make it an actual reality. If the sovereign personality does not choose to act, despite the attunement of its will with the Thought Adjuster's pre-will, the Thought Adjuster's pre-will would remain as unfulfilled potential. If the personality does decide to act, then that potential becomes actualized as fruit of the spirit, a constituent of soul growth, of psychic/cosmic circle progress, as well as a contribution to the evolution of the Supreme. It's the Thought Adjuster's reinforcement which enables this to happen, but only if the personality chooses it to be so.

(1205.3) 110:2.5   You as a personal creature have mind and will. The Adjuster as a prepersonal creature has premind and prewill. If you so fully conform to the Adjuster’s mind that you see eye to eye, then your minds become one, and you receive the reinforcement of the Adjuster’s mind. Subsequently, if your will orders and enforces the execution of the decisions of this new or combined mind, the Adjuster’s prepersonal will attains to personality expression through your decision, and as far as that particular project is concerned, you and the Adjuster are one. Your mind has attained to divinity attunement, and the Adjuster’s will has achieved personality expression.


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fanofVan wrote:
there is no singular absolute universal will. TEXT PLEASE


katroofjebus wrote:
I agree. The expression of free will by a fused personality indicates the continued presence of two minds dominated by one will. Fusion with the Thought Adjuster does not eliminate the presence of his pre-mind which enables him to eternally offer new potentials for personality expression to his fused partner. There is only one will which continues to have the power of choice, the same will that belonged to the personality before fusion. Since the mortal experiencing fusion was the first to enjoy personality status, the mortal's personality, along with its power of choice, outranks the Thought Adjuster's pre-will and pre-personality. Mortal personality remains in control of the partnership because volition is the controlling power. Therefore, the volitional powers of the fused personality remain unchanged, in other words, fusion does not result in the union of two wills, it is rather an attunement of two wills, one of which is a pre-will and incapable of actual personality expression without the free will of that personality. This is what the Thought Adjusters are seeking in partnership, fulfillment of the full potential of a personality by the personality itself.

110:2.5 You as a personal creature have mind and will. The Adjuster as a prepersonal creature has premind and prewill. If you so fully conform to the Adjuster’s mind that you see eye to eye, then your minds become one, and you receive the reinforcement of the Adjuster’s mind. Subsequently, if your will orders and enforces the execution of the decisions of this new or combined mind, the Adjuster’s prepersonal will attains to personality expression through your decision, and as far as that particular project is concerned, you and the Adjuster are one. Your mind has attained to divinity attunement, and the Adjuster’s will has achieved personality expression.

(1205.4) 110:2.6 To the extent that this identity is realized, you are mentally approaching the morontia order of existence. Morontia mind is a term signifying the substance and sum total of the co-operating minds of diversely material and spiritual natures. Morontia intellect, therefore, connotes a dual mind in the local universe dominated by one will. And with mortals this is a will, human in origin, which is becoming divine through man’s identification of the human mind with the mindedness of God.

110:7.4-5  can only be achieved in eternity subsequent to the final attainment of the Universal Father, the Father of spirits, ever the source of these divine gifts. *cough*
... this unique combination of God and man ranks as an ascending mortal all the way up to the Corps of the Finality.


IF your minds are one, then what is constituted, Bradley, I try to explain this for you, then the Universal Father will approve of your will. "All things shall be given unto you". But you yeah would have to fully actually share in the existential mind of the First Source and Center, and until the Urantia Book Published, most people thought that was impossible. Again, as the mind acquiring the "likeness" of the First Source and Center, that means more "freedom", more "possibility", seen by the head as was reflected by the heart's own desire.


katroof wrote:
130:2.7 This was a conference which lasted well into the night, in the course of which the young man requested Jesus to tell him the difference between the will of God and that human mind act of choosing which is also called will. In substance Jesus said: The will of God is the way of God, partnership with the choice of God in the face of any potential alternative. To do the will of God, therefore, is the progressive experience of becoming more and more like God, and God is the source and destiny of all that is good and beautiful and true. The will of man is the way of man, the sum and substance of that which the mortal chooses to be and do. Will is the deliberate choice of a self-conscious being which leads to decision-conduct based on intelligent reflection.

Wow! "The Choice of God"??? Incredible. What does that imply? The choice of God to indwell the minds of mortal men, to live hidden or imprisoned inside the likeness of the flesh??? The Original and potentially Eternal choice to indwell the minds of men's souls? Okay, I am beginning to understand this "the nature of human choices", but there still much questions, "does the fragment of the Universal Father always trying to give best advice to that mind, before he makes his choice"? "is the fragment of the Universal Father like the Apostle Thomas, who when the group decision made, sacrifices his personal concerns to the doing of that plan"? I know you have done very well to explain this Kat & Brooklyn.

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BB....the TA's do not "empower" will. All creatures with personality and mind have free will...fully empowered....TA or not. Van, as but one example. Text please.


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The three arguments are summed up in "unbridled liberty."



Agon D. Onter wrote:
BrooklynBorn wrote: "In fact, this is what Lucifer promoted, that is, the doctrine of unbridled liberty. Lucifer argued creatures possessed mortal free will to choose to do whatever they wanted."

The UB explains that Lucifer presented 3 arguments in his manifesto, the Lucifer Declaration of Liberty:

1. He claimed that the Universal Father was a myth invented by the Paradise Sons so they could maintain power in the universes.
2. He protested the right of Michael to rule and denounced the Ancients of Days as tyrants and foreign potentates.
3. He argued that the mortal ascension plan was a waste because it was based, in his view, on a fictional destiny.

The result being that, based on those 3 false premises, everyone can do whatever they want because there are no consequences.

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SEla_Kelly wrote:
Obviously I would not ask you to have sympathy towards this Lucifer you speak of: but considering being the thirty-seventh of the third order of tertiary Local Universe Sons in the Seventh Universe, easy for that individual to become overwhelmed in the actions of the universe, to become so immersed in Maya, universe orders, that would cause Lucifer to lose sight of his father Michael's duties and intentions.


That is correct and the Revelation explains this very phenomenon in the reference below:

(361:1) 32:3.6 The farther down the scale of life we go, the more difficult it becomes to locate, with the eye of faith, the invisible Father. The lower creatures—and sometimes even the higher personalities—find it difficult always to envisage the Universal Father in his Creator Sons. And so, pending the time of their spiritual exaltation, when perfection of development will enable them to see God in person, they grow weary in progression, entertain spiritual doubts, stumble into confusion, and thus isolate themselves from the progressive spiritual aims of their time and universe. In this way they lose the ability to see the Father when beholding the Creator Son. The surest safeguard for the creature throughout the long struggle to attain the Father, during this time when inherent conditions make such attainment impossible, is tenaciously to hold on to the truth-fact of the Father's presence in his Sons. Literally and figuratively, spiritually and personally, the Father and the Sons are one. It is a fact: He who has seen a Creator Son has seen the Father.

SEla_Kelly wrote:
Jesus "portrayed" the demiurge of the Universal Father: He loves us, even as the Universal Father does.


I think great care should be taken when labeling Jesus as the demiurge. In Gnosticism the demiurge is antagonistic to all things spiritual, which is exactly the opposite of Jesus. Otherwise I agree he loves us as the Father loves us.

fanofVan wrote:
From our resident Luciferian!!


More name calling. Please stop.


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Have you not read his topic and defense of the Manifesto in "Lucifer Doing the Will of God..." ? Very popular...over 70,000 reads...so far.

Here at TruthBook. Good Grief.

When the shoe and sheepskin fits....


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Okay, haha again I here publicly defend unpopular position, but "what are you talking about?" How do you assert that such premises are/were "false"? Sorry, I have to disagree with you.

Look, going into the Age of the Supreme Being, you cannot overlook the relationship between Michael the Creator and Lucifer the Tertiary Lanonandek Son. Obviously I would not ask you to have sympathy towards this Lucifer you speak of: but considering being the thirty-seventh of the third order of tertiary Local Universe Sons in the Seventh Universe, easy for that individual to become overwhelmed in the actions of the universe, to become so immersed in Maya, universe orders, that would cause Lucifer to lose sight of his father Michael's duties and intentions.


SEla_Kelly, this post is pretty surprising, and seems to show a glaring misunderstanding on your part.

No matter what the causes of Lucifer's downfall were, he is now doing time on a prison world. He has been offered mercy, and has rejected it. He is a high Son of God and threw it away. He led our planet - and many others - to a point where we are now quarantined from the rest of the universes. Sympathy for Lucifer does not sit well here. You may harbor such sympathy, but there is little shown for him in the teachings of The Urantia Book.


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Stephen said: "I would not ask you to have sympathy towards this Lucifer ".

That statement seems pretty clear cut to me. He has no sympathy for Lucifer but does understand how such a horrible fall from grace could occur when a descending Son loses sight of the Father in the Creator Son, which is explained here again, in this reference:

(361:1) 32:3.6 The farther down the scale of life we go, the more difficult it becomes to locate, with the eye of faith, the invisible Father. The lower creatures—and sometimes even the higher personalities—find it difficult always to envisage the Universal Father in his Creator Sons. And so, pending the time of their spiritual exaltation, when perfection of development will enable them to see God in person, they grow weary in progression, entertain spiritual doubts, stumble into confusion, and thus isolate themselves from the progressive spiritual aims of their time and universe. In this way they lose the ability to see the Father when beholding the Creator Son. The surest safeguard for the creature throughout the long struggle to attain the Father, during this time when inherent conditions make such attainment impossible, is tenaciously to hold on to the truth-fact of the Father's presence in his Sons. Literally and figuratively, spiritually and personally, the Father and the Sons are one. It is a fact: He who has seen a Creator Son has seen the Father.


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Why do you say that Lucifer rejected mercy, Mary Jo? I do not understand, if that happened, or "will have happened"? When? How?

I believe that I do not have any sympathy for Lucifer. I have sympathy for Tertiary Lanonandek Sons, why Lanaforge still gets guff, being the successor of universe service in Satania. I have sympathy for Tertiary Lanonandek Sons, who so close to the approach of friendship with minds of mortal men, and those ones doing their part in the eternal ministry, getting "called out", misidentified, "hard to trust" from the Urantian POV.

But opinion that 3 declarations are "false", and your preclusion that I am personally sympathetic with Lucifer, only make me want to stop this spreading rumours. Give Lucifer a break: the Ancients of Days will judge him, even as Michael his father said. But I do not understand how or if Lucifer has "rejected mercy". This does not sound right to me.

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So....my post is deleted but the one which supports the Manifesto and questions mortal ascension remains?

Peachy.

Stephen has supported Lucifer here many times over many years...regardless of kat's naive, blind, and uninformed support and endorsement. Kat...he has declared and defended the declaration that Lucifer was doing God's will by rebellion and the manifesto. But pay no attention to the record. Indeed, not.

Ask him his opinion of Gabriel.

The written record here is clear, redundant, and exhaustive...but let's all pretend otherwise.


Last edited by fanofVan on Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:35 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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