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First the reference you provide states that free will is "relative." So we need to define that. My understanding is free will is relative to the dimension in which it is exercised, and this goes back to what I stated --as we ascend there is a proportional loss in ability to exercise free will; basically you're submitting, progressively, your free will to God's. Second, how do those references pertain to my statement? My position is we do not forgo our free will until we reach Paradise where we are truly in union with God and submit our will fully to his. I will address your other points in a separate reply so as not to draw out a long response in one reply box.

katroofjebus wrote:
brooklyn_born wrote:
My argument is we exercise our will to do the will of the Father. And we do so as mortals. As immortals, we continue to exercise our will and, meanwhile, the gravity pull of the Father progressively gets stronger, just like the Son's, as stated in the above verse. The higher you go in dimension, the stronger it gets, and his gravity is met by a corresponding decrease in exercising free will.


Firstly, there's this reference to the fact that even at very high levels, free will is free:

(81.5) 7:0.5 The Son is not, however, personally responsible for the conduct of all spirit personalities. The will of the personal creature is relatively free and hence determines the actions of such volitional beings. Therefore the freewill spirit world is not always truly representative of the character of the Eternal Son, even as nature on Urantia is not truly revelatory of the perfection and immutability of Paradise and Deity. But no matter what may characterize the freewill action of man or angel, the Son’s eternal grasp of the universal gravity control of all spirit realities continues as absolute.

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When we choose to do Father's will, we abdicate our "free" will. Our will is now Father's will; it is no longer free to do as it pleases. There are different types of will power. There is spiritual will, free will, divine will, God's will, Father's will, Adjuster's will, to name a few. You choose to align yourself with one of these. Free will will not get you eternal life. You must submit it one of the higher forms of will. Perhaps this reference could illuminate this truth:

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111:5.4 (1221.5) Peace in this life, survival in death, perfection in the next life, service in eternity—all these are achieved (in spirit) now when the creature personality consents—chooses—to subject the creature will to the Father’s will. And already has the Father chosen to make a fragment of himself subject to the will of the creature personality.

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brooklyn_born wrote:
--as we ascend there is a proportional loss in ability to exercise free will; basically you're submitting, progressively, your free will to God's. Second, how do those references pertain to my statement?


Maybe you missed thes?:

(1460.3) 132:3.10 Universe progress is characterized by increasing personality freedom because it is associated with the progressive attainment of higher and higher levels of self-understanding and consequent voluntary self-restraint. The attainment of perfection of spiritual self-restraint equals completeness of universe freedom and personal liberty.

(2078.2) 195:6.16 Freedom or initiative in any realm of existence is directly proportional to the degree of spiritual influence and cosmic-mind control; that is, in human experience, the degree of the actuality of doing “the Father’s will.” And so, when you once start out to find God, that is the conclusive proof that God has already found you.

Both of these references above indicate the higher we ascend the more freedom of volition we have. And that's because we learn self-control, or self-mastery.

brooklyn_born wrote:
My position is we do not forgo our free will until we reach Paradise where we are truly in union with God and submit our will fully to his.


My position is that we are in union with God when we fuse with our Thought Adjusters, which happens long before reaching Paradise. References:

(1212.5) 110:7.4  Subsequent to mortal fusion the Adjusters share your destiny and experience; they are you. After the fusion of the immortal morontia soul and the associated Adjuster, all of the experience and all of the values of the one eventually become the possession of the other, so that the two are actually one entity. In a certain sense, this new being is of the eternal past as well as for the eternal future. All that was once human in the surviving soul and all that is experientially divine in the Adjuster now become the actual possession of the new and ever-ascending universe personality. But on each universe level the Adjuster can endow the new creature only with those attributes which are meaningful and of value on that level. An absolute oneness with the divine Monitor, a complete exhaustion of the endowment of an Adjuster, can only be achieved in eternity subsequent to the final attainment of the Universal Father, the Father of spirits, ever the source of these divine gifts.

(1177.3) 107:1.2 Together with their many unrevealed associates, the Adjusters are undiluted and unmixed divinity, unqualified and unattenuated parts of Deity; they are of God, and as far as we are able to discern, they are God.

And the fused personality of the human outranks the Adjuster in matters having to do with personality. This would include free will. The free will of the fused human personality outranks the Adjuster because the human enjoyed personality first, during that time the Adjuster was a pre-personality.

(1239.1) 112:7.12 From the time of Adjuster fusion the status of the ascender is that of the evolutionary creature. The human member was the first to enjoy personality and, therefore, outranks the Adjuster in all matters concerned with the recognition of personality. The Paradise headquarters of this fused being is Ascendington, not Divinington, and this unique combination of God and man ranks as an ascending mortal all the way up to the Corps of the Finality.


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well humans tend to feel that doing gods will is something less than doing human free will, which would make the creature more than the Creator and thats just wrong. when the master said that he came so that we might have life in abundance he wasnt kidding.


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Makalu wrote:
well humans tend to feel that doing gods will is something less than doing human free will, which would make the creature more than the Creator and thats just wrong. when the master said that he came so that we might have life in abundance he wasnt kidding.


Wha .....? That is QUITE the generalization. On what basis do you make this claim?

We are naturally wired to seek out God's will. It is only our dual nature, with the primitive, animal tendencies, that deter us from that perspective. Most of us spend our lives working to overcome those animal tendencies and to elevate our moral perspective to be more Godlike. That doesn't make us "more than the Creator". It fulfills our very purpose!


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katroofjebus wrote:
Maybe you missed thes?:

(1460.3) 132:3.10 Universe progress is characterized by increasing personality freedom because it is associated with the progressive attainment of higher and higher levels of self-understanding and consequent voluntary self-restraint. The attainment of perfection of spiritual self-restraint equals completeness of universe freedom and personal liberty.


What does personality freedom have to do with free will?

Quote:
(2078.2) 195:6.16 Freedom or initiative in any realm of existence is directly proportional to the degree of spiritual influence and cosmic-mind control; that is, in human experience, the degree of the actuality of doing “the Father’s will.” And so, when you once start out to find God, that is the conclusive proof that God has already found you.


This reference bolsters my position. The more you submit your will to God's will, the more your personality is trusted to exist and express itself in the higher worlds.

Quote:

Both of these references above indicate the higher we ascend the more freedom of volition we have. And that's because we learn self-control, or self-mastery.


I disagree. You chose to lose your freedom to do as you please (free will) because you give it over to divine will. I think we need a working definition of free will. I should have done this at the beginning.


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Makalu wrote:
well humans tend to feel that doing gods will is something less than doing human free will, which would make the creature more than the Creator and thats just wrong. when the master said that he came so that we might have life in abundance he wasnt kidding.


I agree.

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brooklyn_born wrote:
What does personality freedom have to do with free will?


Free will is an attribute of personality. It comes as a package deal with self-consciousness. Reference:

(194.5) 16:8.5 Creature personality is distinguished by two self-manifesting and characteristic phenomena of mortal reactive behavior: self-consciousness and associated relative free will.

Relative free will means it is limited according to the degree of divinity attainment. The nearer to Divinity you become, the greater freedom of will you have as already described in the references I provided twice.

brooklyn_born wrote:
This reference bolsters my position. The more you submit your will to God's will, the more your personality is trusted to exist and express itself in the higher worlds.


Yes, and free will and personality are inseparable. The personality utilizes volition in order to express it self.

brooklyn_born wrote:
You chose to lose your freedom to do as you please (free will) because you give it over to divine will. I think we need a working definition of free will. I should have done this at the beginning.


Here's the Revelation's definition of free will stated by Jesus: Will is the deliberate choice of a self-conscious being which leads to decision-conduct based on intelligent reflection. (1431.2) 130:2.7

Here are a few more interesting references to think over:

(1300:3) 118:6.7 Volition, the act of choosing, must function within the universe frame which has actualized in response to higher and prior choosing. The entire range of human will is strictly finite-limited except in one particular: When man chooses to find God and to be like him, such a choice is superfinite; only eternity can disclose whether this choice is also superabsonite.

(1299.7) 118:6.4 All volition is relative. In the originating sense, only the Father-I AM possesses finality of volition; in the absolute sense, only the Father, the Son, and the Spirit exhibit the prerogatives of volition unconditioned by time and unlimited by space. Mortal man is endowed with free will, the power of choice, and though such choosing is not absolute, nevertheless, it is relatively final on the finite level and concerning the destiny of the choosing personality.

(1233.1) 112:5.5 And it is this very power of choice, the universe insignia of freewill creaturehood, that constitutes man’s greatest opportunity and his supreme cosmic responsibility. Upon the integrity of the human volition depends the eternal destiny of the future finaliter; upon the sincerity of the mortal free will the divine Adjuster depends for eternal personality; upon the faithfulness of mortal choice the Universal Father depends for the realization of a new ascending son; upon the steadfastness and wisdom of decision-actions the Supreme Being depends for the actuality of experiential evolution.

(1300.1) 118:6.5 Volition on any level short of the absolute encounters limitations which are constitutive in the very personality exercising the power of choice. Man cannot choose beyond the range of that which is choosable. He cannot, for instance, choose to be other than a human being except that he can elect to become more than a man; he can choose to embark upon the voyage of universe ascension, but this is because the human choice and the divine will happen to be coincident upon this point. And what a son desires and the Father wills will certainly come to pass.

(1304.3) 118:10.1 Providence does not mean that God has decided all things for us and in advance. God loves us too much to do that, for that would be nothing short of cosmic tyranny. Man does have relative powers of choice. Neither is the divine love that shortsighted affection which would pamper and spoil the children of men.


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Agon D. Onter wrote:
Makalu wrote:
well humans tend to feel that doing gods will is something less than doing human free will, which would make the creature more than the Creator and thats just wrong. when the master said that he came so that we might have life in abundance he wasnt kidding.


Wha .....? That is QUITE the generalization. On what basis do you make this claim?

We are naturally wired to seek out God's will. It is only our dual nature, with the primitive, animal tendencies, that deter us from that perspective. Most of us spend our lives working to overcome those animal tendencies and to elevate our moral perspective to be more Godlike. That doesn't make us "more than the Creator". It fulfills our very purpose!


well i see it in what's been posted in this thread and it's based on my own experience as a child growing up in the church where doing gods will at first means conforming to the churchy rituals and living within the general notion that we're fallen creatures tempted by evils and must conform our will to the authority of "gods laws" wasn't particularly fun in my experience. i doubt i'm the only person who felt that all of the "thou shalt nots" amounted to a circumscribed existence.


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Oh, so you're talking traditional, institutional religion as it is experienced by humans. That, I can relate to. It's just you wrote only "Humans tend to feel ...." Of course, not all humans have experienced institutional religion. Many, many humans experience God and their worship of Him on their own terms and in their own way.


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brooklyn_born wrote:
That is absolutely not what it says. It says he "refuses to coerce or compel the submission...". However, he most certainly requires submission, albeit, freely given. I think the issue here is your reading comprehension; I am offering a constructive criticism. If it comes across insulting, I apologize.


I agree that the problem is reading comprehension. We simply cannot ignore everything else that is said about the application of free will to doing the will of God and arrive at a balanced understanding of this particular passage. We cannot ignore the context, nuance, detail and implication of what is said and how it relates to all else that is presented. If we do we become too quick to turn truth into an out of context absolutism that is neither fact nor truth.

Once again, the implication is that The Creator does not require the submission of will, as you portray "submission" of will. And once again we need to understand that an English word can have several different though related meanings.

Makalu's reference is the perfect antidote to doing so:

Quote:
111:5.5 (1221.6) Such a creature choice is not a surrender of will. It is a consecration of will, an expansion of will, a glorification of will, a perfecting of will; and such choosing raises the creature will from the level of temporal significance to that higher estate wherein the personality of the creature son communes with the personality of the spirit Father.


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I asked this earlier but I don't think you caught my question. Here it is again as it pertains to this post as well. What is "relative free will"?


katroofjebus wrote:
brooklyn_born wrote:
What does personality freedom have to do with free will?


Free will is an attribute of personality. It comes as a package deal with self-consciousness. Reference:

(194.5) 16:8.5 Creature personality is distinguished by two self-manifesting and characteristic phenomena of mortal reactive behavior: self-consciousness and associated relative free will.

Relative free will means it is limited according to the degree of divinity attainment. The nearer to Divinity you become, the greater freedom of will you have as already described in the references I provided twice.

brooklyn_born wrote:
This reference bolsters my position. The more you submit your will to God's will, the more your personality is trusted to exist and express itself in the higher worlds.


Yes, and free will and personality are inseparable. The personality utilizes volition in order to express it self.

brooklyn_born wrote:
You chose to lose your freedom to do as you please (free will) because you give it over to divine will. I think we need a working definition of free will. I should have done this at the beginning.


Here's the Revelation's definition of free will stated by Jesus: Will is the deliberate choice of a self-conscious being which leads to decision-conduct based on intelligent reflection. (1431.2) 130:2.7

Here are a few more interesting references to think over:

(1300:3) 118:6.7 Volition, the act of choosing, must function within the universe frame which has actualized in response to higher and prior choosing. The entire range of human will is strictly finite-limited except in one particular: When man chooses to find God and to be like him, such a choice is superfinite; only eternity can disclose whether this choice is also superabsonite.

(1299.7) 118:6.4 All volition is relative. In the originating sense, only the Father-I AM possesses finality of volition; in the absolute sense, only the Father, the Son, and the Spirit exhibit the prerogatives of volition unconditioned by time and unlimited by space. Mortal man is endowed with free will, the power of choice, and though such choosing is not absolute, nevertheless, it is relatively final on the finite level and concerning the destiny of the choosing personality.

(1233.1) 112:5.5 And it is this very power of choice, the universe insignia of freewill creaturehood, that constitutes man’s greatest opportunity and his supreme cosmic responsibility. Upon the integrity of the human volition depends the eternal destiny of the future finaliter; upon the sincerity of the mortal free will the divine Adjuster depends for eternal personality; upon the faithfulness of mortal choice the Universal Father depends for the realization of a new ascending son; upon the steadfastness and wisdom of decision-actions the Supreme Being depends for the actuality of experiential evolution.

(1300.1) 118:6.5 Volition on any level short of the absolute encounters limitations which are constitutive in the very personality exercising the power of choice. Man cannot choose beyond the range of that which is choosable. He cannot, for instance, choose to be other than a human being except that he can elect to become more than a man; he can choose to embark upon the voyage of universe ascension, but this is because the human choice and the divine will happen to be coincident upon this point. And what a son desires and the Father wills will certainly come to pass.

(1304.3) 118:10.1 Providence does not mean that God has decided all things for us and in advance. God loves us too much to do that, for that would be nothing short of cosmic tyranny. Man does have relative powers of choice. Neither is the divine love that shortsighted affection which would pamper and spoil the children of men.

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Last edited by brooklyn_born on Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:39 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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One possible (likely?) meaning of "relative" free will is that a less developed person may be largely at the mercy of environmental, electro-chemical and genetic influences when making a decision. The range of possible things to consider in making a choice is very much curtailed. They are part robot, in effect...


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Agon D. Onter wrote:
Oh, so you're talking traditional, institutional religion as it is experienced by humans. That, I can relate to. It's just you wrote only "Humans tend to feel ...." Of course, not all humans have experienced institutional religion. Many, many humans experience God and their worship of Him on their own terms and in their own way.


of course humans tend to first and mostly encounter concepts about god etc. in the context of an institutional religion.


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Riktare, God requires you freely to submit your will to his. He does not want to force you to do it. He wants free will to be consecrated by us, not by him. Free will no longer is free when it is submitted to the will of another. It transforms into the will of the other. Follow? When you submit or consecrate your will to God, no longer are you "free" to do with it as you please. You can drop the free part from 'will'. The idea that we are free willed creatures when we become one with God is a sophistry doctrine. It means we are free to do as we choose even as we are unified with deity. The fact is, you work to bind your will to do the will of God as an ascending mortal. The Revelators I think are quite clear on this.

Riktare wrote:
brooklyn_born wrote:
That is absolutely not what it says. It says he "refuses to coerce or compel the submission...". However, he most certainly requires submission, albeit, freely given. I think the issue here is your reading comprehension; I am offering a constructive criticism. If it comes across insulting, I apologize.


I agree that the problem is reading comprehension. We simply cannot ignore everything else that is said about the application of free will to doing the will of God and arrive at a balanced understanding of this particular passage. We cannot ignore the context, nuance, detail and implication of what is said and how it relates to all else that is presented. If we do we become too quick to turn truth into an out of context absolutism that is neither fact nor truth.

Once again, the implication is that The Creator does not require the submission of will, as you portray "submission" of will. And once again we need to understand that an English word can have several different though related meanings.

Makalu's reference is the perfect antidote to doing so:

Quote:
111:5.5 (1221.6) Such a creature choice is not a surrender of will. It is a consecration of will, an expansion of will, a glorification of will, a perfecting of will; and such choosing raises the creature will from the level of temporal significance to that higher estate wherein the personality of the creature son communes with the personality of the spirit Father.

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