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Exactly....and in total agreement with what I wrote...motive is preliminary to decion/choice and action. Thanks for the confirmation. The point is pure motive does not reduce or limit actionable options and choices as BB proposes...it expands them. It does obviously eliminate some options but greater experience and wisdom delivers more actionable options, not fewer.


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fanofVan wrote:
The point is pure motive does not reduce or limit actionable options and choices as BB proposes...it expands them. It does obviously eliminate some options but greater experience and wisdom delivers more actionable options, not fewer.


Do you mean purity of motive? Regardless, as one gains greater self-mastery through alliance with the Spirit within, one also gains greater liberty to choose. Immature beings do not have unfettered free will. There are limits placed upon their options for good reason. The more mature, the more allied with spirit, the fewer limits to choosing are imposed.

(1301.8 ) 118:8.3 The spirit liberates, and the mechanism limits, the function of will. Imperfect choice, uncontrolled by mechanism, unidentified with spirit, is dangerous and unstable. Mechanical dominance insures stability at the expense of progress; spirit alliance liberates choice from the physical level and at the same time assures the divine stability produced by augmented universe insight and increased cosmic comprehension.

(1301.5) 118:7.8 Therefore is there increased safety in narrowing the limits of personality choice throughout the lower levels of existence. Choice becomes increasingly liberated as the universes are ascended; choice eventually approximates divine freedom when the ascending personality achieves divinity of status, supremacy of consecration to the purposes of the universe, completion of cosmic-wisdom attainment, and finality of creature identification with the will and the way of God.


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katroofjebus wrote:

(1301.5) 118:7.8 Therefore is there increased safety in narrowing the limits of personality choice throughout the lower levels of existence. Choice becomes increasingly liberated as the universes are ascended; choice eventually approximates divine freedom when the ascending personality achieves divinity of status, supremacy of consecration to the purposes of the universe, completion of cosmic-wisdom attainment, and finality of creature identification with the will and the way of God.


Excellent revelation! Choice expands in proportion to consecration of mortal will; "finality of creature identification WITH THE WILL [...] of God".

Question: when the creature identifies its will with God's will, is the former will transformed?

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brooklyn_born wrote:
katroofjebus wrote:

(1301.5) 118:7.8 Therefore is there increased safety in narrowing the limits of personality choice throughout the lower levels of existence. Choice becomes increasingly liberated as the universes are ascended; choice eventually approximates divine freedom when the ascending personality achieves divinity of status, supremacy of consecration to the purposes of the universe, completion of cosmic-wisdom attainment, and finality of creature identification with the will and the way of God.


Excellent revelation! Choice expands in proportion to consecration of mortal will; "finality of creature identification WITH THE WILL [...] of God".

Question: when the creature identifies its will with God's will, is the former will transformed?


Actually, it is the creature that is transformed. :wink: :!: 8)


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brooklyn_born wrote:
Question: when the creature identifies its will with God's will, is the former will transformed?


In what way? There are components to volition. Here's the definition of "will" described two ways:

(1431.2) 130.2.7  Will is the deliberate choice of a self-conscious being which leads to decision-conduct based on intelligent reflection.

(1431.5) 130:2.10  It was on this same day that we first heard that momentous truth which, stated in modern terms, would signify: “Will is that manifestation of the human mind which enables the subjective consciousness to express itself objectively and to experience the phenomenon of aspiring to be Godlike.” And it is in this same sense that every reflective and spiritually minded human being can become creative.

There's some unpacking that can be done here. I think the last word of the second reference is a big clue given by the author.


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I like to think of free will not as something to be obtained and held on to, but as a God designed and freely given tool to be used. Hopefully we can learn to use it to facilitate our realization of perfection of intent and actualization of purpose; discovering God's plan and choosing to be the fulfillment of his intent for us.

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Once the person applies his or her will to choose to do God's will, what could be said about the will of that person after the choice is made? Here is another way I can ask the question on will. If your will is to have me manage your store, and I choose to submit to your will, is my will still engaged while I am managing your store?

Also, take a look at this revelation and tell me how you interpret it.

12:7.7 (138.2) The will of God does not uniformly prevail in the heart of the God-seeking material mortal, but if the time frame is enlarged beyond the moment to embrace the whole of the first life, then does God’s will become increasingly discernible in the spirit fruits which are borne in the lives of the spirit-led children of God. And then, if human life is further enlarged to include the morontia experience, the divine will is observed to shine brighter and brighter in the spiritualizing acts of those creatures of time who have begun to taste the divine delights of experiencing the relationship of the personality of man with the personality of the Universal Father.

katroofjebus wrote:
brooklyn_born wrote:
Question: when the creature identifies its will with God's will, is the former will transformed?


In what way? There are components to volition. Here's the definition of "will" described two ways:

(1431.2) 130.2.7  Will is the deliberate choice of a self-conscious being which leads to decision-conduct based on intelligent reflection.

(1431.5) 130:2.10  It was on this same day that we first heard that momentous truth which, stated in modern terms, would signify: “Will is that manifestation of the human mind which enables the subjective consciousness to express itself objectively and to experience the phenomenon of aspiring to be Godlike.” And it is in this same sense that every reflective and spiritually minded human being can become creative.

There's some unpacking that can be done here. I think the last word of the second reference is a big clue given by the author.

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brooklyn_born wrote:
Once the person applies his or her will to choose to do God's will, what could be said about the will of that person after the choice is made? Here is another way I can ask the question on will. If your will is to have me manage your store, and I choose to submit to your will, is my will still engaged while I am managing your store?



Let's consider the managing the store analogy that BB suggests, above. Say I own a store and I ask BB to manage it for a time. So BB is there, managing the store, and a farmer comes in and says, "I have surplus fruit that I cannot use, would you like to sell it in the store?" What does BB respond? He will have to think to himself, 'What would Agon want me to do in this situation? What is Agon's will?' Based on BB's discernment of what I, the store owner would want, BB would have to make a choice about how to respond.

He could say, 'sure, bring it in, we'll sell here.' Or, he could see that the fruit is poor quality and discern that the store owner would not want to ruin the hard-earned reputation of selling high quality produce at the store, and refuse to accept the fruit. Either way, he is not responding as an automaton, simply following a script of Agon's will. He is exercising his choice, and hoping that it is the right choice. The better he knows Agon and Agon's goals for the store, the more aligned his choice will be with what Agon would like him to do. But he still needs to use his own judgement, bringing to bear his understanding and his experience in watching how Agon managed the store, to make a choice that BB thinks is the closest match to what Agon would want him to do.


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You're making a decision of your own volition in hopes it aligns with the will of the store owner. It is a risky undertaking because there is a slight chance it runs afoul of the store owner's will. Were you instructed to engage personal liberty of choice by the store owner when in doubt on what course of action to take? Were instructions given addressing an issue like this? Those are questions I would ask. And it actually brings me back to my position...

Once you move outside the parameter of the will of God, or in this case, the will of the store owner, there is that element of uncertainty that you are upholding God's desire. In fact, this is what Lucifer promoted, that is, the doctrine of unbridled liberty. Lucifer argued creatures possessed mortal free will to choose to do whatever they wanted. He believed what he promoted was for the greater good of creation. But we all know he was wrong. He used his willpower outside the scope of divinity.

Agon D. Onter wrote:
brooklyn_born wrote:
Once the person applies his or her will to choose to do God's will, what could be said about the will of that person after the choice is made? Here is another way I can ask the question on will. If your will is to have me manage your store, and I choose to submit to your will, is my will still engaged while I am managing your store?



Let's consider the managing the store analogy that BB suggests, above. Say I own a store and I ask BB to manage it for a time. So BB is there, managing the store, and a farmer comes in and says, "I have surplus fruit that I cannot use, would you like to sell it in the store?" What does BB respond? He will have to think to himself, 'What would Agon want me to do in this situation? What is Agon's will?' Based on BB's discernment of what I, the store owner would want, BB would have to make a choice about how to respond.

He could say, 'sure, bring it in, we'll sell here.' Or, he could see that the fruit is poor quality and discern that the store owner would not want to ruin the hard-earned reputation of selling high quality produce at the store, and refuse to accept the fruit. Either way, he is not responding as an automaton, simply following a script of Agon's will. He is exercising his choice, and hoping that it is the right choice. The better he knows Agon and Agon's goals for the store, the more aligned his choice will be with what Agon would like him to do. But he still needs to use his own judgement, bringing to bear his understanding and his experience in watching how Agon managed the store, to make a choice that BB thinks is the closest match to what Agon would want him to do.

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Uncertainty in the universe is a feature, not a bug.


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Agon D. Onter wrote:
Uncertainty in the universe is a feature, not a bug.


26:9.3 (295.1) The test of time is almost over; the race for eternity has been all but run. The days of uncertainty are ending...

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BrooklynBorn wrote: "In fact, this is what Lucifer promoted, that is, the doctrine of unbridled liberty. Lucifer argued creatures possessed mortal free will to choose to do whatever they wanted."

The UB explains that Lucifer presented 3 arguments in his manifesto, the Lucifer Declaration of Liberty:

1. He claimed that the Universal Father was a myth invented by the Paradise Sons so they could maintain power in the universes.
2. He protested the right of Michael to rule and denounced the Ancients of Days as tyrants and foreign potentates.
3. He argued that the mortal ascension plan was a waste because it was based, in his view, on a fictional destiny.

The result being that, based on those 3 false premises, everyone can do whatever they want because there are no consequences.


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brooklyn_born wrote:
Agon D. Onter wrote:
Uncertainty in the universe is a feature, not a bug.


26:9.3 (295.1) The test of time is almost over; the race for eternity has been all but run. The days of uncertainty are ending...


BB,
You realize this is talking about once an ascending mortal reaches Havona, right?

In the meantime, while we are 'managing the store' so to speak …

Quote:
26:5.3 (291.3) That, then, is the primary or elementary course which confronts the faith-tested and much-traveled pilgrims of space. But long before reaching Havona, these ascendant children of time have learned to feast upon uncertainty, to fatten upon disappointment, to enthuse over apparent defeat, to invigorate in the presence of difficulties, to exhibit indomitable courage in the face of immensity, and to exercise unconquerable faith when confronted with the challenge of the inexplicable. Long since, the battle cry of these pilgrims became: “In liaison with God, nothing — absolutely nothing — is impossible.”


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I encourage you to reread my initial posts. I explain that as we ascend our will increasingly reflects God's will until it is a perfect reflection on paradise when we become "one" with God. I believe the Finaliter stage is when this transformation occurs.


Agon D. Onter wrote:
brooklyn_born wrote:
Agon D. Onter wrote:
Uncertainty in the universe is a feature, not a bug.


26:9.3 (295.1) The test of time is almost over; the race for eternity has been all but run. The days of uncertainty are ending...


BB,
You realize this is talking about once an ascending mortal reaches Havona, right?

In the meantime, while we are 'managing the store' so to speak …

Quote:
26:5.3 (291.3) That, then, is the primary or elementary course which confronts the faith-tested and much-traveled pilgrims of space. But long before reaching Havona, these ascendant children of time have learned to feast upon uncertainty, to fatten upon disappointment, to enthuse over apparent defeat, to invigorate in the presence of difficulties, to exhibit indomitable courage in the face of immensity, and to exercise unconquerable faith when confronted with the challenge of the inexplicable. Long since, the battle cry of these pilgrims became: “In liaison with God, nothing — absolutely nothing — is impossible.”

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The revelation you provide is pre-union with God.

Agon D. Onter wrote:
In the meantime, while we are 'managing the store' so to speak …

Quote:
26:5.3 (291.3) That, then, is the primary or elementary course which confronts the faith-tested and much-traveled pilgrims of space. But long before reaching Havona, these ascendant children of time have learned to feast upon uncertainty, to fatten upon disappointment, to enthuse over apparent defeat, to invigorate in the presence of difficulties, to exhibit indomitable courage in the face of immensity, and to exercise unconquerable faith when confronted with the challenge of the inexplicable. Long since, the battle cry of these pilgrims became: “In liaison with God, nothing — absolutely nothing — is impossible.”

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