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Sei Kelley wrote: “Why do you say that Lucifer rejected mercy, Mary Jo? I do not understand, if that happened, or "will have happened"? When? How?”

53:2.5 (603.1) It is very difficult to point out the exact cause or causes which finally culminated in the Lucifer rebellion. We are certain of only one thing, and that is: Whatever these first beginnings were, they had their origin in Lucifer’s mind. There must have been a pride of self that nourished itself to the point of self-deception, so that Lucifer for a time really persuaded himself that his contemplation of rebellion was actually for the good of the system, if not of the universe. By the time his plans had developed to the point of disillusionment, no doubt he had gone too far for his original and mischief-making pride to permit him to stop. At some point in this experience he became insincere, and evil evolved into deliberate and willful sin. That this happened is proved by the subsequent conduct of this brilliant executive. He was long offered opportunity for repentance, but only some of his subordinates ever accepted the proffered mercy. The Faithful of Days of Edentia, on the request of the Constellation Fathers, in person presented the plan of Michael for the saving of these flagrant rebels, but always was the mercy of the Creator Son rejected and rejected with increasing contempt and disdain.


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Here's a quote for you about that:

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45:1.11 As a sojourner on the seventh mansion world, you have access to the seventh transition world, the sphere of the Universal Father, and are also permitted to visit the Satania prison worlds surrounding this planet, whereon are now confined Lucifer and the majority of those personalities who followed him in rebellion against Michael. And this sad spectacle has been observable during these recent ages and will continue to serve as a solemn warning to all Nebadon until the Ancients of Days shall adjudicate the sin of Lucifer and his fallen associates who rejected the salvation proffered by Michael, their universe Father.


Lucifer is a hard case...

If you want to have sympathy for those who find themselves so far from the Father, you have to go no further than the plight of us mortals who find ourselves cut off from universe circuits, and essentially in the dark as regards God. People here really have to struggle with finding God because of these rebels. If not for them and their crazy plans, we might have a better world right now.


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Also bear in mind that Lucifer had every advantage in his favor. He was brilliant, he was very highly placed in the celestial hierarchy, and he had direct access. And yet, his pride was his downfall. It was no accidental 'fall from grace'. He willingly and knowingly rebelled.

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53:1.1 (601.3) Lucifer was not an ascendant being; he was a created Son of the local universe, and of him it was said: “You were perfect in all your ways from the day you were created till unrighteousness was found in you.” Many times had he been in counsel with the Most Highs of Edentia. And Lucifer reigned “upon the holy mountain of God,” the administrative mount of Jerusem, for he was the chief executive of a great system of 607 inhabited worlds.

53:1.2 (601.4) Lucifer was a magnificent being, a brilliant personality; he stood next to the Most High Fathers of the constellations in the direct line of universe authority. Notwithstanding Lucifer’s transgression, subordinate intelligences refrained from showing him disrespect and disdain prior to Michael’s bestowal on Urantia. Even the archangel of Michael, at the time of Moses’ resurrection, “did not bring against him an accusing judgment but simply said, ‘the Judge rebuke you.’” Judgment in such matters belongs to the Ancients of Days, the rulers of the superuniverse.


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But opinion that 3 declarations are "false", and your preclusion that I am personally sympathetic with Lucifer, only make me want to stop this spreading rumours. Give Lucifer a break: the Ancients of Days will judge him, even as Michael his father said. But I do not understand how or if Lucifer has "rejected mercy". This does not sound right to me.


SEla_Kelly, when you say thing like this, you are asking for trouble. The Lucifer Manifesto IS false. Its adoption by Caligastia brought on nothing but trouble - quarantine, and also indirectly, the default of the Adamic mission.

I do not give Lucifer a pass or a break. He does not want such things, as his rejection of Michael's offer proves.

BTW - this side-topic needs to be cut short. I know I have contributed some to it, but it is a charged issue that - according to fanofvan - has been thoroughly discussed elsewhere on this forum. I just could not keep silent about this show of misunderstanding about this archrebel.

I suggest that the original topic be resumed, if anyone cares to wring that out a little more...


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I have asked that this side-topic be cut short. What I mean to say is, let's drop it. Now.

It's one thing to talk about the rebellion and about Lucifer. But, The teachings of the book about these topics are very clear, and they are NOT sympathetic to rebels. They have been dealt with and are incarcerated for their crimes - crimes against all of us. Caligastia may still be here, but his influence is greatly curtailed. He is "servile" before Michael of Nebadon and his Spirit of Truth.

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But since the day of Pentecost this traitorous Caligastia and his equally contemptible associate, Daligastia, are servile before the divine majesty of the Paradise Thought Adjusters and the protective Spirit of Truth, the spirit of Michael, which has been poured out upon all flesh.


These kinds of attitudes that ask readers of this Forum to entertain sympathy and understanding for archrebels are antithetical to the teachings of The Urantia Book.


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I have deleted three or four further posts on this tangent.

If we can't get back to the topic, I will have to lock it.


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To conclude this thread and answer the question it poses, "Do we lose free will as we become more spiritual?" I think this exchange sums it up quite nicely.

Brooklyn_born wrote:
I think free will is exchanged for divine will.


Makalu wrote:
there is a partnership between human will and gods will...more to come yet available now. and we don't lose anything in partnership with Everything in the infinite journey of both unity and diversity.

well unless losing the various constraints placed on human will on this planet and ultimately losing the constraints of time and space is to be considered a loss but it's not.


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Again...I protest the deletions of my posts while those in support of Lucifer and his manifesto and cause continue. Stop this madness!


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I have deleted several posts - yours and Agon's had to do with replying to SEla_Kelly's, which is also deleted. The only ones left are those that clearly refute the false statements and misunderstandings posted. And then I asked for people do stop and take up the original topic.


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Thank you.

Apologies to the wiser, kinder, and more gentle and patient folk here who find my expression of indignation and outrage at some posts (and posters) who choose to post personal beliefs and theories that completely contradict the Revelation while hijacking terms and concepts which originate in that text to completely change and misrepresent the contents of that text and distort the facts and truths of reality provided us and which we study here.

There are those students here who committ the grave and grievous error of pulling a sentence or phrase from such posts to then post some minor agreement with, in pursuit of the peaceful goal of conflict avoidance...but then say little or nothing about the contradictions, distortion, falsehoods both stated and inferred. What a gross mistake in a classroom setting of students, so many new to the book!! This is not where the general public gather to share theories and beliefs seeking general agreement. This is a study group of a specific book and set of teachings.

Such lack of objection is a function of laziness and indifference to truth and mistaken motive to timidly avoid conflict with evil IMO...no matter the price paid. It is inexcusable. Feathers may be ruffled, toes stepped on, and shin bones kicked by objecting to abuse of the text and contradictions to it, but this is not Polly Anna's School of Kumbayah Decorum people. Wisely facing and overcoming evil is our task, not passively ignoring it. We learn by engagement and not by its refusal.

There have been some real and very dangerous wolves here over the years...those with agendas of disruption and deceit and misdirection hoping to end study and scholarly pursuits here and those seeking a platform and audience for the broadcasting of their own theories and beliefs. Some even read the UB. There are those here who believe and teach that the Papers are a gift from celestials but are a deceptive conspiracy to hide their own sins and the UB is a coverup for the arch criminal Gabriel and false indictment of the innocent Lucifer. Oh, there are worse.

Those who silently refuse to object and engage are perpetuating such nonsense but those of you who engage such evil by selective agreement are truly guilty of collusion and endorsement by the assumed lack of disagreement you demonstrate by trying to be so agreeable.

This is very dangerous behavior. A choice made with true consequences. Decisions must be made by each student here as to whether decorum and agreability are more important than the study of reality per the guidelines and advertised purpose. Those who get cozy with lies and falsehoods in the name of peace may believe such doveness to be desireable but without great wisdom it is only defeat while glibly smiling and feeling warm and fuzzy about oneself.

Those who will not point out contradictions to that which we study here are no friends of study or that which is supposedly studied. Those who welcome fools and wolves into their midst certainly deserve the results. What is sown will certainly be reaped...including those tares sown by the enemies of truth. Thanks.

Bradly. 8)

I should add my usual notice: No sincere students here need to agree with me or accept or believe the contents of the Papers or accept the claims of the authors. I do not and will not attempt to convince anyone what to believe...or what they should or should not do. A sincere student seeks to learn, acquire knowledge and understanding. It really is not difficult to know who is which after a few posts. There were requirements for all who wished to study with or even follow the Master. To impose zero standards of study is to make a mockery of sincerity and study...both.


Last edited by fanofVan on Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:06 am +0000, edited 2 times in total.

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BB,
What, exactly, are we discussing at this point? If you are looking for validation of a suggestion that we lose free will as we become more spiritual, I don't think you're going to find that here. We are at 12 pages of discussion and it hasn't happened yet.

You even started a new thread with a similar suggestion and it's not validating your perspective. Perhaps you should rethink your premise.


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Agon, if you have nothing more to add to this thread's topic then I suggest you not comment any longer to the thread.

Agon D. Onter wrote:
BB,
What, exactly, are we discussing at this point? If you are looking for validation of a suggestion that we lose free will as we become more spiritual, I don't think you're going to find that here. We are at 12 pages of discussion and it hasn't happened yet.

You even started a new thread with a similar suggestion and it's not validating your perspective. Perhaps you should rethink your premise.

_________________
BB, the Urantian Gnostic606


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Agon D. Onter wrote:
BB,
What, exactly, are we discussing at this point? If you are looking for validation of a suggestion that we lose free will as we become more spiritual, I don't think you're going to find that here. We are at 12 pages of discussion and it hasn't happened yet.

You even started a new thread with a similar suggestion and it's not validating your perspective. Perhaps you should rethink your premise.


Thanks Agon for pointing out the rope a dope here. So much bobbing and weaving long after the definitive answer to the question has been obvious for many pages now.

NO...we do NOT lose free will as we become more spiritual!!! In fact, it is the exact opposite !! We gain more free will options as we perfect motive and gain experiential wisdom. Period. No question. No exception. No equivocation.

Still some grasp at straws to gain agreement to their prejudice and preconceptions of personal belief. Well, believe wjat you will but the UB says what it says.


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Agon D. Onter wrote:
I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, free will that is "controlled" isn't FREE.

I agree with the general sentiment of what Jim is suggesting, but I would use the word "guided" rather than controlled. Free will is sovereign. Full stop.

As an individual progresses, spiritually, their free will becomes more and more aligned with the Will of the Father. On that, I think we all agree.

Edited to add: Now, if you mean free will is "controlled" by the self -- meaning, self-control, then I agree with that. We become better at self-control/ self-regulating/ giving up our own self-interest as we grow closer to God. And thereby, our free will is bounded by our own exercise of self-control in order to stay aligned with the Father's will, then yes, I agree.


Well said. Consider how few choices there are for my own self interest compared to how many choices there are available to consider for wisdom's assessment of the greatest good for the greater number for the longest time. Hmmmm...

Now there's some options to choose from. The greater the experiential wisdom, the larger the selection of options for free will to choose from. A law of universe reality. The more self centered we are the fewer options we have to choose from and vice versa.

So teaches the UB.


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