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Okay thanks for the clarification.

katroofjebus wrote:
brooklyn_born wrote:
I read your initial response but was still confused on the difference between the two. I did not think there was a difference. So, a human has not grown a soul but when he or she does they are a bona-fide human. Am I interpreting what you're saying correctly?


Yes. Humans have crossed the threshold from animal existence because they have contact with the sixth adjutant of worship. But they do not become recognized by the universe as bona fide humans until they make their first moral decision indicating that they not only have capacity for survival but are in the process of actually choosing survival. That's the impetus for the soul, the vehicle for eternal survival, a cosmic citizen.

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brooklyn_born wrote:
I will not draw out a long missive for the sake of brevity. So let's get right to the nitty-gritty. What are mind traits of survival value TA duplicates? Originally, and I attribute this to my Christian background (I am born Catholic,) which I had used somewhat to interpret the revelations, I believed these traits were morally and righteously centered.

I have come to a place of understanding, at the present, where I reject such notion. I do not think mind traits of survival value which repose in the soul necessarily are morally grounded. Why do I say this? Because, sophistry was promoted by Lucifer on the mansion world and assumed by many ascendant candidates with huge souls, plain and simple. Moreover, the function of the morontia sphere (mansion world) is to purge the soul of character defects and flaws (sin, error and iniquity, ie., "unspirituality").

What prompted me to post this is a statement by a participant of the board on an earlier post, and to paraphrase: unspirituality can sometimes be confused with spirituality. What I find interesting is unspirituality, which I am of the opinion has survival value, persists all the way up to the seventh mansion world!

Now I think it begs the question, what are some examples of unspirituality?


I am going out on the limb here and claim what Catholics call "seven deadly sins" and "mortal sin" qualify as unspirituality; we would definitely find these behaviors and thinking processes on the mansion world, especially in the lower mansions.

What are you thoughts on this topic?


The text is clear about what the Adjuster makes a record of and that which survives in soul and that is all choices, experieces, and expressions of mortal mind which reflect love, truth, beauty, and goodness and are also worthy of the God of Experience, the Supreme.

While we may still have some remaining vestiges of our animal natures due to mortal immaturity and inexperience and self importance, we don't arrive burdened by error and sin. We arrive with more Circle progress or less, with more spiritization or less, with more experiential wisdom or less, with more fruits of the Spirit or less.

The TA is not making any record of faults and failures to carry forward. It is only in regards to our success, great or little, that the TA and soul carry forward. The vestiges are another issue and soon resolved.


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I would like to point out that the soul is the "spiritual and potentially immortal counterpart of character and identity." Besides the personality and Adjuster, both divine realities, the mortal part of us survives in the soul as character traits gained by working with our Thought Adjusters during life in the flesh. These character traits are perfecting character traits, still very much imperfect. They are not yet considered character traits of divinity. Divinity is defined in the references below:

(3.3) 0:1.16 DIVINITY is the characteristic, unifying, and co-ordinating quality of Deity.

(3.4) 0:1.17 Divinity is creature comprehensible as truth, beauty, and goodness; correlated in personality as love, mercy, and ministry; disclosed on impersonal levels as justice, power, and sovereignty.

(3.5) 0:1.18 Divinity may be perfect — complete — as on existential and creator levels of Paradise perfection; it may be imperfect, as on experiential and creature levels of time-space evolution; or it may be relative, neither perfect nor imperfect, as on certain Havona levels of existential-experiential relationships.


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47:9.1 (538.6) ... the seventh mansion world. Here you will be purged of all the remnants of unfortunate heredity, unwholesome environment, and unspiritual planetary tendencies. The last remnants of the “mark of the beast” are here eradicated.


How did these human traits survive the death of the flesh and carry over into the mansion world?


fanofVan wrote:
brooklyn_born wrote:
I will not draw out a long missive for the sake of brevity. So let's get right to the nitty-gritty. What are mind traits of survival value TA duplicates? Originally, and I attribute this to my Christian background (I am born Catholic,) which I had used somewhat to interpret the revelations, I believed these traits were morally and righteously centered.

I have come to a place of understanding, at the present, where I reject such notion. I do not think mind traits of survival value which repose in the soul necessarily are morally grounded. Why do I say this? Because, sophistry was promoted by Lucifer on the mansion world and assumed by many ascendant candidates with huge souls, plain and simple. Moreover, the function of the morontia sphere (mansion world) is to purge the soul of character defects and flaws (sin, error and iniquity, ie., "unspirituality").

What prompted me to post this is a statement by a participant of the board on an earlier post, and to paraphrase: unspirituality can sometimes be confused with spirituality. What I find interesting is unspirituality, which I am of the opinion has survival value, persists all the way up to the seventh mansion world!

Now I think it begs the question, what are some examples of unspirituality?


I am going out on the limb here and claim what Catholics call "seven deadly sins" and "mortal sin" qualify as unspirituality; we would definitely find these behaviors and thinking processes on the mansion world, especially in the lower mansions.

What are you thoughts on this topic?


The text is clear about what the Adjuster makes a record of and that which survives in soul and that is all choices, experieces, and expressions of mortal mind which reflect love, truth, beauty, and goodness and are also worthy of the God of Experience, the Supreme.

While we may still have some remaining vestiges of our animal natures due to mortal immaturity and inexperience and self importance, we don't arrive burdened by error and sin. We arrive with more Circle progress or less, with more spiritization or less, with more experiential wisdom or less, with more fruits of the Spirit or less.

The TA is not making any record of faults and failures to carry forward. It is only in regards to our success, great or little, that the TA and soul carry forward. The vestiges are another issue and soon resolved.

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katroofjebus wrote:
I would like to point out that the soul is the "spiritual and potentially immortal counterpart of character and identity." Besides the personality and Adjuster, both divine realities, the mortal part of us survives in the soul as character traits gained by working with our Thought Adjusters during life in the flesh. These character traits are perfecting character traits, still very much imperfect. They are not yet considered character traits of divinity. Divinity is defined in the references below:

(3.3) 0:1.16 DIVINITY is the characteristic, unifying, and co-ordinating quality of Deity.

(3.4) 0:1.17 Divinity is creature comprehensible as truth, beauty, and goodness; correlated in personality as love, mercy, and ministry; disclosed on impersonal levels as justice, power, and sovereignty.

(3.5) 0:1.18 Divinity may be perfect — complete — as on existential and creator levels of Paradise perfection; it may be imperfect, as on experiential and creature levels of time-space evolution; or it may be relative, neither perfect nor imperfect, as on certain Havona levels of existential-experiential relationships.


How did these human traits survive the death of the flesh and carry over into the mansion world? See below reference.


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47:9.1 (538.6) ... the seventh mansion world. Here you will be purged of all the remnants of unfortunate heredity, unwholesome environment, and unspiritual planetary tendencies. The last remnants of the “mark of the beast” are here eradicated.

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brooklyn_born wrote:
How did these human traits survive the death of the flesh and carry over into the mansion world?


They are part of character. Character is supposed to evolve like everything else. We begin on earth with the character we inherit from our parents, some traits good, some bad. During this life we endeavor to improve our character by traversing the seven psychic/cosmic circles. We do this by slowly identifying with the character of Deity, which is known as divinity.

We build the character of our souls by discovering the nature of Deity and making choices to adopt those attributes of divinity we have recognized and identified with. Once the newly adopted attribute is utilized in life, or actualized by free will, it becomes part of the survivable character in the soul. It is survivable because it is closer to divinity than the material, evolutionary trait from our parents we originally identified with. Identity has shifted for that particular part of our nature and it survives for further improvement and closer identification with the nature of Deity.

112:6.7 Mortal mind, prior to death, is self-consciously independent of the Adjuster presence; adjutant mind needs only the associated material-energy pattern to enable it to operate. But the morontia soul, being superadjutant, does not retain self-consciousness without the Adjuster when deprived of the material-mind mechanism. This evolving soul does, however, possess a continuing character derived from the decisions of its former associated adjutant mind, and this character becomes active memory when the patterns thereof are energized by the returning Adjuster.

This is what the mansion world experience is all about. Our characters begin there exactly where they left off in the perfecting process of the psychic/cosmic circles down here. The two lower mansion worlds are dedicated to dealing with deficits, meaning the absence of certain character traits or very poorly developed character traits. The mansion worlds are designed to complete the traversal of the seven psychic/cosmic circles to the point of fusion. Most persons fuse before leaving the mansion worlds, hence the reference to the last one in your citation. Although I would add that fusion is sometimes delayed for reasons we're not told, but I think it must happen before leaving the local universe.

One of the things gained by fusion is fixation of divinity quality. This means that the character of the personality has fully identified with the divinity of the Thought Adjuster in terms of quality, but has room to grow quantitatively. So even if a person fuses while still living in the flesh, that individual is translated to one of the mansion worlds for further development of character, among other things. Reference:

(1237.3) 112.7.1  Thought Adjuster fusion imparts eternal actualities to personality which were previously only potential. Among these new endowments may be mentioned: fixation of divinity quality, past-eternity experience and memory, immortality, and a phase of qualified potential absoluteness.


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Creature character is counterparted by TA. That is why when TA energizes those character patterns they come back to life in the afterlife; TA energizes patterns it has duplicated. All experiences we have in life imprint themselves into our embryonic souls. But not all experiences have survivable value. It all depends on what TA counterparts that gets salvaged. TA reinserts itself at the roll call and reengages only those character traits it recognizes (duplicated).

Read here:

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13:1.22 (147.3) The secrets of Ascendington include the mystery of the gradual and certain building up in the material and mortal mind of a spiritual and potentially immortal counterpart of character and identity. This phenomenon constitutes one of the most perplexing mysteries of the universes—the evolution of an immortal soul within the mind of a mortal and material creature.




katroofjebus wrote:
brooklyn_born wrote:
How did these human traits survive the death of the flesh and carry over into the mansion world?


They are part of character. Character is supposed to evolve like everything else. We begin on earth with the character we inherit from our parents, some traits good, some bad. During this life we endeavor to improve our character by traversing the seven psychic/cosmic circles. We do this by slowly identifying with the character of Deity, which is known as divinity.

We build the character of our souls by discovering the nature of Deity and making choices to adopt those attributes of divinity we have recognized and identified with. Once the newly adopted attribute is utilized in life, or actualized by free will, it becomes part of the survivable character in the soul. It is survivable because it is closer to divinity than the material, evolutionary trait from our parents we originally identified with. Identity has shifted for that particular part of our nature and it survives for further improvement and closer identification with the nature of Deity.

112:6.7 Mortal mind, prior to death, is self-consciously independent of the Adjuster presence; adjutant mind needs only the associated material-energy pattern to enable it to operate. But the morontia soul, being superadjutant, does not retain self-consciousness without the Adjuster when deprived of the material-mind mechanism. This evolving soul does, however, possess a continuing character derived from the decisions of its former associated adjutant mind, and this character becomes active memory when the patterns thereof are energized by the returning Adjuster.

This is what the mansion world experience is all about. Our characters begin there exactly where they left off in the perfecting process of the psychic/cosmic circles down here. The two lower mansion worlds are dedicated to dealing with deficits, meaning the absence of certain character traits or very poorly developed character traits. The mansion worlds are designed to complete the traversal of the seven psychic/cosmic circles to the point of fusion. Most persons fuse before leaving the mansion worlds, hence the reference to the last one in your citation. Although I would add that fusion is sometimes delayed for reasons we're not told, but I think it must happen before leaving the local universe.

One of the things gained by fusion is fixation of divinity quality. This means that the character of the personality has fully identified with the divinity of the Thought Adjuster in terms of quality, but has room to grow quantitatively. So even if a person fuses while still living in the flesh, that individual is translated to one of the mansion worlds for further development of character, among other things. Reference:

(1237.3) 112.7.1  Thought Adjuster fusion imparts eternal actualities to personality which were previously only potential. Among these new endowments may be mentioned: fixation of divinity quality, past-eternity experience and memory, immortality, and a phase of qualified potential absoluteness.

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brooklyn_born wrote:
Creature character is counterparted by TA. That is why when TA energizes those character patterns they come back to life in the afterlife; TA energizes patterns it has duplicated. All experiences we have in life imprint themselves into our embryonic souls. But not all experiences have survivable value. It all depends on what TA counterparts that gets salvaged. TA reinserts itself at the roll call and reengages only those character traits it recognizes (duplicated).


I agree with that. The Thought Adjusters make duplicate copies of our survival character and spiritual qualities, one for themselves and one for the soul.

108:6.5 These faithful custodians of the future career unfailingly duplicate every mental creation with a spiritual counterpart; they are thus slowly and surely re-creating you as you really are (only spiritually) for resurrection on the survival worlds. And all of these exquisite spirit re-creations are being preserved in the emerging reality of your evolving and immortal soul, your morontia self. These realities are actually there, notwithstanding that the Adjuster is seldom able to exalt these duplicate creations sufficiently to exhibit them to the light of consciousness.

The Thought Adjuster energizes the memory of the soul, which in addition to containing survivable character traits is also a morontia mind.

(1236.6) 112:6.8 The persistence of memory is proof of the retention of the identity of original selfhood; it is essential to complete self-consciousness of personality continuity and expansion. Those mortals who ascend without Adjusters are dependent on the instruction of seraphic associates for the reconstruction of human memory; otherwise the morontia souls of the Spirit-fused mortals are not limited. The pattern of memory persists in the soul, but this pattern requires the presence of the former Adjuster to become immediately self-realizable as continuing memory. Without the Adjuster, it requires considerable time for the mortal survivor to re-explore and relearn, to recapture, the memory consciousness of the meanings and values of a former existence.


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okay we are on the same page for this issue. I think we can build a stronger understanding by probing more. What do you think unspiritual planetary tendencies are?


katroofjebus wrote:
brooklyn_born wrote:
Creature character is counterparted by TA. That is why when TA energizes those character patterns they come back to life in the afterlife; TA energizes patterns it has duplicated. All experiences we have in life imprint themselves into our embryonic souls. But not all experiences have survivable value. It all depends on what TA counterparts that gets salvaged. TA reinserts itself at the roll call and reengages only those character traits it recognizes (duplicated).


I agree with that. The Thought Adjusters make duplicate copies of our survival character and spiritual qualities, one for themselves and one for the soul.

108:6.5 These faithful custodians of the future career unfailingly duplicate every mental creation with a spiritual counterpart; they are thus slowly and surely re-creating you as you really are (only spiritually) for resurrection on the survival worlds. And all of these exquisite spirit re-creations are being preserved in the emerging reality of your evolving and immortal soul, your morontia self. These realities are actually there, notwithstanding that the Adjuster is seldom able to exalt these duplicate creations sufficiently to exhibit them to the light of consciousness.

The Thought Adjuster energizes the memory of the soul, which in addition to containing survivable character traits is also a morontia mind.

(1236.6) 112:6.8 The persistence of memory is proof of the retention of the identity of original selfhood; it is essential to complete self-consciousness of personality continuity and expansion. Those mortals who ascend without Adjusters are dependent on the instruction of seraphic associates for the reconstruction of human memory; otherwise the morontia souls of the Spirit-fused mortals are not limited. The pattern of memory persists in the soul, but this pattern requires the presence of the former Adjuster to become immediately self-realizable as continuing memory. Without the Adjuster, it requires considerable time for the mortal survivor to re-explore and relearn, to recapture, the memory consciousness of the meanings and values of a former existence.

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brooklyn_born wrote:
What do you think unspiritual planetary tendencies are?


I think this reference highlights a few:

(551.3) 48:5.8 One of the purposes of the morontia career is to effect the permanent eradication from the mortal survivors of such animal vestigial traits as procrastination, equivocation, insincerity, problem avoidance, unfairness, and ease seeking. The mansonia life early teaches the young morontia pupils that postponement is in no sense avoidance. After the life in the flesh, time is no longer available as a technique of dodging situations or of circumventing disagreeable obligations.

I think the biggest one among those is insincerity. It's repeated here:

(103.5) 9:5.7 Too often, all too often, you mar your minds by insincerity and sear them with unrighteousness; you subject them to animal fear and distort them by useless anxiety. Therefore, though the source of mind is divine, mind as you know it on your world of ascension can hardly become the object of great admiration, much less of adoration or worship. The contemplation of the immature and inactive human intellect should lead only to reactions of humility.

Insincerity is inauthentic and somewhat dishonest. I think it takes the ability to see yourself as others see you to be able to recognize how deep this can go. It's very easy to lie to oneself and completely believe the fiction is real. This sets up an entire cascade of events based upon falsehood. Falsehood is a species of evil and it takes time to eradicate it completely. I don't think it's possible to recognize every possible "shadow of a hair's turning" as false without being taught, shown or given ample time to experience. But as it says in the reference below, the slightest perversion constitutes falseness, and I don't think humans are always aware that they're doing it, especially if it has become a habit. These unspiritual habits get eradicated on the mansion worlds.

(555.1) 48:6.33 Law is life itself and not the rules of its conduct. Evil is a transgression of law, not a violation of the rules of conduct pertaining to life, which is the law. Falsehood is not a matter of narration technique but something premeditated as a perversion of truth. The creation of new pictures out of old facts, the restatement of parental life in the lives of offspring — these are the artistic triumphs of truth. The shadow of a hair’s turning, premeditated for an untrue purpose, the slightest twisting or perversion of that which is principle — these constitute falseness.

There are a whole group of seraphim on the mansion worlds dedicated to this kind of psychotherapy, if you want to call it that. They are the Mind Planners.

(553.5) 48:6.24 3. Mind Planners. These seraphim are devoted to the effective grouping of morontia beings and to organizing their teamwork on the mansion worlds. They are the psychologists of the first heaven. The majority of this particular division of seraphic ministers have had previous experience as guardian angels to the children of time, but their wards, for some reason, failed to personalize on the mansion worlds or else survived by the technique of Spirit fusion.

(553.6) 48:6.25 It is the task of the mind planners to study the nature, experience, and status of the Adjuster souls in transit through the mansion worlds and to facilitate their grouping for assignment and advancement. But these mind planners do not scheme, manipulate, or otherwise take advantage of the ignorance or other limitations of mansion world students. They are wholly fair and eminently just. They respect your newborn morontia will;they regard you as independent volitional beings, and they seek to encourage your speedy development and advancement. Here you are face to face with true friends and understanding counselors, angels who are really able to help you “to see yourself as others see you” and “to know yourself as angels know you.”

(553.7) 48:6.26 Even on Urantia, these seraphim teach the everlasting truth: If your own mind does not serve you well, you can exchange it for the mind of Jesus of Nazareth, who always serves you well.


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fanofVan wrote:
The text is clear about what the Adjuster makes a record of and that which survives in soul and that is all choices, experieces, and expressions of mortal mind which reflect love, truth, beauty, and goodness and are also worthy of the God of Experience, the Supreme.


I agree, except I believe that such records (transcripts) must be rendered of the truth within the heart , through the unconcsciousness rather than forged of the intellect, and therein is much great mystery about how the individuated Thought Adjuster "may make manifest to the human consciousness", the true unified Creator-Creature needs, the existential needs of the human individual combined with his actual qualities of creature-humanity. That is, even though the way tUB states Adjusters procure transcripts is quite clear, the depth of the totality of human experiences is unqualified, so you still have unknowns with how Revelation "is brought up" [172:3.4-6] and then coordinated with the consciousness of the human mind and joined to the circumstances of mortal affairs.

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