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brooklyn_born wrote:
Agon, I will clarify then. I didn't express myself effectively. if you said the moon is made of cheese, I would respect your right to that opinion. I would not agree with it, and would challenge the claim, but, still, respect your right to publish it to the board.


I don't have a "right" to publish nonsense on the board. This is the Urantia Book Forum/ Study Group. It has guidelines and rules. There is no free speech right on this privately owned and operated board.

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Truthbook.com was created as a showcase for the teachings of The Urantia Book with an emphasis on Part IV, The Life and Teachings of Jesus.

This discussion board, as an extension of the Truthbook.com website, has one primary goal:
To be a safe place where newcomers to The Urantia Book can ask questions and explore the teachings of The Urantia Book in a communal setting.


Maryjo is very tolerant, to her credit. But believing that one has a "right" to publish whatever opinion they wish on this board is an erroneous assumption on your part, BB. And, the opinions that are obviously contradictory to UB text are a distraction from the study that many of us come here to engage in.


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This is my last reply on the issue. You, me or any other member do not get to make the rules of the board. TOS for this BBS has already been created and is published for all to read. If a participant posts an idea that flies in the face of others'e belief, but falls within TOS guidelines, you, me and anyone else need to respect that person's right to publish it here. I am done on this matter as it is now serving to detract from the thread topic.


Agon D. Onter wrote:
brooklyn_born wrote:
Agon, I will clarify then. I didn't express myself effectively. if you said the moon is made of cheese, I would respect your right to that opinion. I would not agree with it, and would challenge the claim, but, still, respect your right to publish it to the board.


I don't have a "right" to publish nonsense on the board. This is the Urantia Book Forum/ Study Group. It has guidelines and rules. There is no free speech right on this privately owned and operated board.

Quote:
Truthbook.com was created as a showcase for the teachings of The Urantia Book with an emphasis on Part IV, The Life and Teachings of Jesus.

This discussion board, as an extension of the Truthbook.com website, has one primary goal:
To be a safe place where newcomers to The Urantia Book can ask questions and explore the teachings of The Urantia Book in a communal setting.


Maryjo is very tolerant, to her credit. But believing that one has a "right" to publish whatever opinion they wish on this board is an erroneous assumption on your part, BB. And, the opinions that are obviously contradictory to UB text are a distraction from the study that many of us come here to engage in.

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fanofVan wrote:
brooklyn_born wrote:
There are episodes in the 5th epochal revelation where celestials present subjective in nature (or at least I think they are) revelations, which, obviously, are included in the corpus of revelation in TUB. How do you interpret that kind of revelation? Is it straight forward universe fact or an interpretation of universe fact?

*See below for the particular revelation*




fanofVan wrote:
Interpretation of reality is subjective while reality itself is purely objective. Our relationship TO reality is subjective but reality itself is objective. Interpretation of reality suggests opinions about facts rather than knowledge of facts. Interpretation also results in our personal and fictional, if well reasoned, metaphysical construction of reality....an explanation for reality rather than reality itself. Can't be helped. Knowledge of reality requires both facts and experience. Reality is experiential like truth is experiential. Reality changes, becomes more real, by our experience of it.

Is reality really changing? No. I think the UB teaches us that the best, fastest, and most effective way to "change" the world is to change our "perspective" of the world by spiritizing our thinking and experiencing a love filled, mercy centered, life of true service to others....that profoundly changes the world. Does it really change the "world"...it helps a little but generally NO it does not...it changes us and our perspective of reality and makes reality more real and it makes us more real. We ourselves become more real as we transfer the seat of our identity and as we progress through the Circles and when we become fused with TA and the more and more spiritzedl we become. The more truth we embody and embrace, the more real we become and the more real we become the more objective reality gets.

About knowledge of reality....one reason for epochal revelation...to deliver factual knowledge of the universe to help form human perspective and philosophy in the approach to truth realization. Think of every being in the universe of universes as a hierarchy from human to Gabriel and from Gabriel to Paradise and assign each a number beginning with #1 for us humans and #50 for Gabriel and #100 for the Trinity, with each number representing less subjectivity and more objectivity and with less "interpretation" of reality and more and more comprehension of reality. Now consider that education in ascension experience will be increasing wisdom and knowledge and objectivity for #'s 1-50, the children of time and space. Now further consider that even us #1's will achieve levels of experience, knowledge, and objectivity that is now experience by every level and every number of being up to pure Spirit (somewhere in the 80's or 90's as estimated by me). It is a gradient of objectivity that collapses over time by experiential wisdom by each and by all beings in time.

So we must do the best we can with the equipment (mind) we have...for now. But our entire universe career is one of gaining knowledge, experience, and wisdom with greater understanding and perspective and objectivity during the entire adventure!

Another issue to consider relevant to your point BB is our differences in approaching the UB - mine being literal and yours as metaphorical. A literal approach to study leaves far less to "interpretation" I think. No interest in any dispute here or who's approach is more accurate and useful. We all approach the UB in our own way. But reading the UB as a non-literal presentation of reality means it doesn't really represent reality at all but rather a figurative fiction for our interpretation - just more subjective metaphysics rather than the facts and objectivity it claims for itself. I would opine this presents an even greater degree of difficulty in trying to objectively grasp any reality presented or represented by the Papers. But I think we agree that the message certainly includes the teachings that we gain objectivity and knowledge by our experience and lessons spent in the classroom(s) of the universe ascendance schools of personal transformation as we become less material and more spiritual in our being.

I think the Good News of the Revelation remains that we are saved by faith and not by knowledge or understanding of reality and that faith may grow in any person who embraces the voice within and learns to love in God's friendly universe. Knowledge will come and so will objectivity and wisdom. And they contribute to our spiritual growth even here and now as tadpoles of time....but faith is all we really need....still. Or so I understand.

8)



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9:6.8 (104.6) ... We believe that this unpredictability is partly attributable to the function of the Universal Absolute. What this function is, we do not know; what actuates it, we can only conjecture; concerning its relation to creatures, we can only speculate.


I think the UB has many such examples where the authors include facts known to them along with related conjecture and speculations about specific elements of those facts that are unknown to them. I think it is obvious and clear when they authoritatively state facts and when they speculate in wonder about details related to those facts. Original causes and ultimate effects seem most often to be subjects of conjecture.

Remember my numerical spectrum analogy of each level of being's awareness of reality and objectivity? Each level of being has a greater or lesser objective knowledge of the totality of reality. Only Deity themselves has absolute objectivity and knowledge of reality. Deity is not the author of the Revelation.

I believe that facts presented as such by the authors are reliable as such and the many speculations are a great gift of reality perspective too...there is always more to learn in the adventures of time....for all who abide in time. 8)



BB has posted 9:6.8 as an example of text that confuses him related to the difference in the UB of facts declared and questions or speculation and conjecture of the authors, later asking that since the UB includes some speculation doesn't that then mean it is all speculation??

Obviously not...and a question and claim I find problematic and somewhat disingenuous as it is obvious from the surrounding quotes the very distinct and obvious differences in the author's many and certain claim of facts and their few uncertainties related to those facts. It appears BB is attempting to challenge the credibility and the confidence of the authors while hoping to support his own belief and claims that the UB is not a book of literal facts but is a collection of figurative metaphors for the imaginative re-invention by himself and others.

In Paper 9, I count over 150 direct statements of unequivocal fact and about a dozen questions or unknowns posed about those facts (unknowns to the author).

These claims and beliefs of BB's are up to him to resolve for himself as I find the reality quite obvious and reassuring. The real question, to me, is why include the authors' speculations throughout this text of fact? For some readers that apparently seems to lessen the credibility of the book and authors. It certainly could have been left out for those the sake of those incredulous minds and skeptics, so why include them? I think they portray truth and reality and, to me, such an important and inclusive glimpse of the fact that experiential wisdom, especially in time and space, does not result in total and absolute knowledge and understanding of all things.

I think it means and illustrates that no matter how much knowledge we gain and facts obtained, that the thrill of the unknown and the yet to learn and not yet understood remains an alluring incentive and reward for the children of time. I think it a humble and gracious sharing that let's us know that our own ignorance is surmountable and common but total knowledge of all is only for Deity. It is a form of caring and sharing to give confidence to us tadpoles that learning is an endless adventure.

Such inclusions of wonder certainly do not mean or indicate the authors can only speculate about everything or that the 5th Epochal Revelation is merely opinions and less than factual. That is the claim and presumption of this topic and its author however.

We are told that the further we are from Paradise in origin or experience, the more subjective is our perspective and knowledge of reality. Those closest to the origins and center of all things are more objective in perspective. Objectivity is earned by knowledge acquired and education and experience and wisdom and time in the universe of universes. This fact related to subjectivity does not mean that a subjective view is then inaccurate. BB's claim that the authors each present their own subjective view is meant to persuade us further that subjectivity results in mere opinions about reality rather than an understanding and knowledge of reality.

A false claim and presumption. Subjectivity and objectivity are inverted spectrums of the creature's perspective and knowledge of reality where our own subjectivity is indeed based on many fictions and falsehoods while the celestial authors of the UB cannot be measured so harshly. For example, the author of Paper 9 quoted by BB is: Revealed on Urantia by a Divine Counselor of Uversa commissioned by the Ancients of Days to portray the nature and work of the Infinite Spirit.

The credentials of this being are presented at the end of Paper 1: [Presented by a Divine Counselor, a member of a group of celestial personalities assigned by the Ancients of Days on Uversa, the headquarters of the seventh superuniverse, to supervise those portions of this forthcoming revelation which have to do with affairs beyond the borders of the local universe of Nebadon. I am commissioned to sponsor those papers portraying the nature and attributes of God because I represent the highest source of information available for such a purpose on any inhabited world. I have served as a Divine Counselor in all seven of the superuniverses and have long resided at the Paradise center of all things. Many times have I enjoyed the supreme pleasure of a sojourn in the immediate personal presence of the Universal Father. I portray the reality and truth of the Father’s nature and attributes with unchallengeable authority; I know whereof I speak.]

It certainly is BB's right to challenge the authority and knowledge and objectivity and certainty of the authors of the Revelation even if that rolls the eyes and brings belly laughs and guffaws from some students here. Sorry...but such nonsense is hard to take seriously. BB, tadpole from the ponds of time, challenges the knowledge of a Divine Counselor. Good one, hahahaha. Of course one must believe the claims of the authors for such jocularity to inherently overcome the mind with such a sight. If one does not believe the author's claims, then of course the contents are merely someone's opinion. We shall some day see which is which on that matter, eh?


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fanofVan wrote:
the author's many and certain claim of facts and their few uncertainties related to those facts. It appears BB is attempting to challenge the credibility and the confidence of the authors while hoping to support his own belief and claims that the UB is not a book of literal facts but is a collection of figurative metaphors for the imaginative re-invention by himself and others.

everything or that the 5th Epochal Revelation is merely opinions and less than factual. That is the claim and presumption of this topic and its author however.



The credibility of the authors means that I can trust their opinion. I trust that the name of our planet is Urantia, but this comes from the authors of tUB, and maybe other cultures of that I am unaware. If you think that the person has wisdom, you are more likely to trust their opinions, but hopefully enough explanations to guide you to identify the facts scientifically for your own purposes.

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I found this from a site where the entomology of coined words in the Urantia book were investigated or analyzed:

ia = noun-forming suffix used for names < thematic vowel "-i-" + Latin noun suffix "-a" (first declension, nominative)
general: urania = heavenly (uran-) one (-ia)
specific: Urania = the heavenly one [Gr. Myth., the Muse of astronomy]
-tia = noun-forming suffix < -t- [of Latin past-participle stem] + -ia (cf., -tion and -ion)
In "The Urantia Book", the coined suffix "-tia" indicates that the noun is impersonal, and the suffix "-ia" is used in its personal sense.
general: urantia = heavenly (uran-) place (-tia)
specific: Urantia = (y)our heavenly place (i.e., in the cosmos)
[However, our world--Urantia--"is just as precisely administered and just as lovingly fostered as if it were" (15:14.9) "the" heavenly place.]

I don’t think that beings on Morontia world 1 or Satania use this word, it was developed by the author for our benefit.


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I agree. Even new words introduced to us in the UB, including the names of places and beings, are in English and translations of System and Universe languages.


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That you bring up this issue raises some questions for me. I find it interesting Celestials developed a different name for our planet (Urantia). And yet they make use of both words, earth and Urantia, in the revelation. This possibly may mean Urantia signifies something either entirely different from earth or is an enlarging of the word earth to portray a concept the word fails to capture. I think it ties into the etymology you supplied.


no sophist wrote:
I found this from a site where the entomology of coined words in the Urantia book were investigated or analyzed:

ia = noun-forming suffix used for names < thematic vowel "-i-" + Latin noun suffix "-a" (first declension, nominative)
general: urania = heavenly (uran-) one (-ia)
specific: Urania = the heavenly one [Gr. Myth., the Muse of astronomy]
-tia = noun-forming suffix < -t- [of Latin past-participle stem] + -ia (cf., -tion and -ion)
In "The Urantia Book", the coined suffix "-tia" indicates that the noun is impersonal, and the suffix "-ia" is used in its personal sense.
general: urantia = heavenly (uran-) place (-tia)
specific: Urantia = (y)our heavenly place (i.e., in the cosmos)
[However, our world--Urantia--"is just as precisely administered and just as lovingly fostered as if it were" (15:14.9) "the" heavenly place.]

I don’t think that beings on Morontia world 1 or Satania use this word, it was developed by the author for our benefit.

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brooklyn_born wrote:
That you bring up this issue raises some questions for me. I find it interesting Celestials developed a different name for our planet (Urantia). And yet they make use of both words, earth and Urantia, in the revelation. This possibly may mean Urantia signifies something either entirely different from earth or is an enlarging of the word earth to portray a concept the word fails to capture. I think it ties into the etymology you supplied.


no sophist wrote:
I found this from a site where the entomology of coined words in the Urantia book were investigated or analyzed:

ia = noun-forming suffix used for names < thematic vowel "-i-" + Latin noun suffix "-a" (first declension, nominative)
general: urania = heavenly (uran-) one (-ia)
specific: Urania = the heavenly one [Gr. Myth., the Muse of astronomy]
-tia = noun-forming suffix < -t- [of Latin past-participle stem] + -ia (cf., -tion and -ion)
In "The Urantia Book", the coined suffix "-tia" indicates that the noun is impersonal, and the suffix "-ia" is used in its personal sense.
general: urantia = heavenly (uran-) place (-tia)
specific: Urantia = (y)our heavenly place (i.e., in the cosmos)
[However, our world--Urantia--"is just as precisely administered and just as lovingly fostered as if it were" (15:14.9) "the" heavenly place.]

I don’t think that beings on Morontia world 1 or Satania use this word, it was developed by the author for our benefit.


Yeah, well there are also many words that the authors use and attach multible meanings to and its not always easy to figure it out and its also easy for this reason to misinterpret meanings. I do not believe that there is one arbitrary use of any word in the entire text and its up to the reader to sort through and discover the meanings of words used in these various ways.


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If there were sentient beings living on the planet we call "Saturn", do you think they refer to their planet of habitation as "Saturn"?

Urantia is the celestials name for our planet. Earth is our name for our planet. It's not complicated.


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I am thinking these terms are not actually new words, but rather new terms built on existing words. I would say that the celestials enlarged concepts built on existing but reconstructed words. Take for instance Morontia. This is not an English word, yet you can see the English root; moron-(t)ia. Moron is a psychology term (no longer in usage.) The celestials borrowed the psychology concept and enlarged it.

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brooklyn_born wrote:
I am thinking these terms are not actually new words, but rather new terms built on existing words. I would say that the celestials enlarged concepts built on existing but reconstructed words. Take for instance Morontia. This is not an English word, yet you can see the English root; moron-(t)ia. Moron is a psychology term (no longer in usage.) The celestials borrowed the psychology concept and enlarged it.


That's false and you have already been told so!!


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Try this:

morontia =


= the mother (ma) place of (-tia) man (mon) [The solar system is the physical womb for mankind, defined by the immediate, bounded presence of the Master Physical Controllers.]
= that which is (-tia) akin to (on) matter (mor) [This word has the true allusion "that which is (-tia) akin to (on) the moral nature (mor-)", but this is an etymological illusion.]


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Very possible etymology, no sophistry. However, I am not convinced. Because the celestials borrowed heavily from psychology concepts of the early 20th century to formulate the mind revelation papers, I tend to believe the term is built on the psychology term "moron," which deals with the mind. Below is a screen-grab of the term moron. Notice it is closely tied with the eugenics movement, which is another concept built upon by the celestials.

Also remember, it is in the morontia sphere that we begin the process of purging our morontia form of the "mark of the Beast."


Image



no sophist wrote:
Try this:

morontia =


= the mother (ma) place of (-tia) man (mon) [The solar system is the physical womb for mankind, defined by the immediate, bounded presence of the Master Physical Controllers.]
= that which is (-tia) akin to (on) matter (mor) [This word has the true allusion "that which is (-tia) akin to (on) the moral nature (mor-)", but this is an etymological illusion.]

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Okay, BB, let's once again apply some logic and common sense here. WHY would the celestials "borrow" a word like moron, which you say is tied to eugenics, to describe the semi-material/ spiritual post-death existence and training on the Mansion Worlds and beyond. That makes no sense. There is no need for eugenics after physical death; and hopefully, the training on the Mansion Worlds will entail far above the moronic levels as everyone in the Mansion Worlds is of normal/ sound mind and capable of normal mind function.


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brooklyn_born wrote:
Very possible etymology, no sophistry. However, I am not convinced. Because the celestials borrowed heavily from psychology concepts of the early 20th century to formulate the mind revelation papers, I tend to believe the term is built on the psychology term "moron," which deals with the mind. Below is a screen-grab of the term moron. Notice it is closely tied with the eugenics movement, which is another concept built upon by the celestials.

Also remember, it is in the morontia sphere that we begin the process of purging our morontia form of the "mark of the Beast."


Image



no sophist wrote:
Try this:

morontia =


= the mother (ma) place of (-tia) man (mon) [The solar system is the physical womb for mankind, defined by the immediate, bounded presence of the Master Physical Controllers.]
= that which is (-tia) akin to (on) matter (mor) [This word has the true allusion "that which is (-tia) akin to (on) the moral nature (mor-)", but this is an etymological illusion.]


Ah - you consider yourself less than a moron and will advance to the status of full blown moron on a Morontia world.
Interesting interpretation but I can’t agree


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