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Agon D. Onter wrote:
Okay, BB, let's once again apply some logic and common sense here. WHY would the celestials "borrow" a word like moron, which you say is tied to eugenics, to describe the semi-material/ spiritual post-death existence and training on the Mansion Worlds and beyond.


They borrowed the word to construct the term "morontia," with the purpose, I surmise, of enlarging the psychology concept related to mind. This is somewhat similar to celestials borrowing words like "subnormal," "feeble-minded," "idiot," "lunatics," "epileptics," "abnormal," and "supernormal," all of which are outmoded late 19th and early 20th century psychology terms.


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That makes no sense. There is no need for eugenics after physical death

I never said such a thing.

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; and hopefully, the training on the Mansion Worlds will entail far above the moronic levels as everyone in the Mansion Worlds is of normal/ sound mind and capable of normal mind function.


They are not capable of spiritual function yet as they must undergo the purging process of mind, and I think that that is what the celestials want to drive across by employing a term rooted in the psychology concept "moron."

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brooklyn_born wrote:
Agon D. Onter wrote:
Okay, BB, let's once again apply some logic and common sense here. WHY would the celestials "borrow" a word like moron, which you say is tied to eugenics, to describe the semi-material/ spiritual post-death existence and training on the Mansion Worlds and beyond.


They borrowed the word to construct the term "morontia," with the purpose, I surmise, of enlarging the psychology concept related to mind. This is somewhat similar to celestials borrowing words like "subnormal," "feeble-minded," "idiot," "lunatics," "epileptics," "abnormal," and "supernormal," all of which are outmoded late 19th and early 20th century psychology terms.


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That makes no sense. There is no need for eugenics after physical death

I never said such a thing.


I didn't say you did. :?:

brooklyn_born wrote:
Agon D. Onter wrote:
; and hopefully, the training on the Mansion Worlds will entail far above the moronic levels as everyone in the Mansion Worlds is of normal/ sound mind and capable of normal mind function.


They are not capable of spiritual function yet as they must undergo the purging process of mind, and I think that that is what the celestials want to drive across by employing a term rooted in the psychology concept "moron."


What do you mean by "spiritual function"? Please provide an example of what spiritual function entails.


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So....seraphim and Most Highs and Gabriel are morons?

Yeah, you bet.


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Agon D. Onter wrote:
I didn't say you did. :?:


okay.


Agon D. Onter wrote:



What do you mean by "spiritual function"? Please provide an example of what spiritual function entails.


When you divest yourself of the morontia form and take on the spirit form.

Quote:
30:4.20 (342.3) Mortals acquire real spirit identity just before they leave the local universe headquarters for the receiving worlds of the minor sectors of the superuniverse. Passing from the final morontia stage to the first or lowest spirit status is but a slight transition. The mind, personality, and character are unchanged by such an advance; only does the form undergo modification. But the spirit form is just as real as the morontia body, and it is equally discernible.

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So....the authors of each Paper agreed to describe themselves as morons and their reality as moronic. Of course they did. What an assumption and accusation. :roll:


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When you divest yourself of the morontia form and take on the spirit form.

30:4.20 (342.3) Mortals acquire real spirit identity ...


This refers to spirit identity; not spiritual function. You said that those on the Mansion worlds "are not capable of spiritual function yet as they must undergo the purging process of mind".

But we can all experience spiritual function while in mortal life, much in advance, and throughout, the morontia life.

100:1.6 (1095.1) Religious experience is markedly influenced by physical health, inherited temperament, and social environment. But these temporal conditions do not inhibit inner spiritual progress by a soul dedicated to the doing of the will of the Father in heaven. There are present in all normal mortals certain innate drives toward growth and self-realization which function if they are not specifically inhibited. The certain technique of fostering this constitutive endowment of the potential of spiritual growth is to maintain an attitude of wholehearted devotion to supreme values.


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What I mean is taking on the spirit identity & form. Using spiritual function was a poor choice of words on my part as it already has a specific use in revelation.

Agon D. Onter wrote:
Quote:
When you divest yourself of the morontia form and take on the spirit form.

30:4.20 (342.3) Mortals acquire real spirit identity ...


This refers to spirit identity; not spiritual function. You said that those on the Mansion worlds "are not capable of spiritual function yet as they must undergo the purging process of mind".

But we can all experience spiritual function while in mortal life, much in advance, and throughout, the morontia life.

100:1.6 (1095.1) Religious experience is markedly influenced by physical health, inherited temperament, and social environment. But these temporal conditions do not inhibit inner spiritual progress by a soul dedicated to the doing of the will of the Father in heaven. There are present in all normal mortals certain innate drives toward growth and self-realization which function if they are not specifically inhibited. The certain technique of fostering this constitutive endowment of the potential of spiritual growth is to maintain an attitude of wholehearted devotion to supreme values.

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no sophist wrote:
brooklyn_born wrote:
Very possible etymology, no sophistry. However, I am not convinced. Because the celestials borrowed heavily from psychology concepts of the early 20th century to formulate the mind revelation papers, I tend to believe the term is built on the psychology term "moron," which deals with the mind. Below is a screen-grab of the term moron. Notice it is closely tied with the eugenics movement, which is another concept built upon by the celestials.

Also remember, it is in the morontia sphere that we begin the process of purging our morontia form of the "mark of the Beast."


Image



no sophist wrote:
Try this:

morontia =


= the mother (ma) place of (-tia) man (mon) [The solar system is the physical womb for mankind, defined by the immediate, bounded presence of the Master Physical Controllers.]
= that which is (-tia) akin to (on) matter (mor) [This word has the true allusion "that which is (-tia) akin to (on) the moral nature (mor-)", but this is an etymological illusion.]


Ah - you consider yourself less than a moron and will advance to the status of full blown moron on a Morontia world.
Interesting interpretation but I can’t agree


In this case, I am beginning to agree no sophist! Hahahaha!

When will the "discussion" recognize that mortals have little to do with "morontia" realities. Morontia refers to the entirety of the reality that lies between the purely material and pure spirit. It's huge and includes so many beings and creatures of such variety. It's not about the rehabilitation of mortals...that's the Mansion Worlds, a tiny portion of the reality of morontia.

What a ludicrous claim by one who does not believe the UB to be literal anyway. It is starting to sound like a snipe hunt around here and we're discussing the moron who will hold the bag awaiting the mythical snipe into the dark night. Some real hillbilly fun!

:roll: Come on people!


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Hey, I was naive enough to hunt snype - once - flashlight battery went dead before I realized the game.. Everyone had a good laugh, something missing around here.
Since then I’ve graduated to one of those country bumpkins that cling to god and gun.
And I do live in the hills. I guess it shows eh?
Btw: my moron statement was not intended to be derogatory fwiw.


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So...last year it was Stephen claiming that agony was the root word for agondonter...hahahahaha!

Yes - no sophist - I remember my only snype hunt as the bag man....but I've sat on the porch mirthfully awaiting other snype hunters to return home. Usually a few owl hoots or coyote cries will bring 'em in early. What a hoot.

:wink: :biggrin: 8)


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So...last year it was Stephen claiming that agony was the root word for agondonter...hahahahaha!


I don't think that is so far-fetched...

From Websters 1913 dictionary:
Quote:
Agony. Ag"o*ny , n.; pl. Agonies . [L. agonia, Gr. , orig. a contest, fr. : cf. F. agonie. See Agon.] 1. Violent contest or striving.


Quote:
Agon. ||Ag"on , n.; pl. Agones . [Gr. , fr. to lead.] (Gr. Antiq.) A contest for a prize at the public games.


agon = contest
don = human man

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Did You Know?
In Ancient Greece, a public gathering was called agon. Since the Greeks placed a high value on sports and athletic competition, there were almost always athletic events at gatherings on festival days. The struggle to win the prize in such contests came to be called agonia. This term came also to be used for any difficult physical struggle and then for the pain that went with it—physical or mental. Our English word agony, meaning “intense pain of mind or body,” thus comes from a word that meant a happy celebration.


From https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/agony


From the UB:

Quote:
50:7.2 On Jerusem the ascenders from these isolated worlds occupy a residential sector by themselves and are known as the agondonters, meaning evolutionary will creatures who can believe without seeing, persevere when isolated, and triumph over insuperable difficulties even when alone. This functional grouping of the agondonters persists throughout the ascension of the local universe and the traversal of the superuniverse; it disappears during the sojourn in Havona but promptly reappears upon the attainment of Paradise and definitely persists in the Corps of the Mortal Finality. Tabamantia is an agondonter of finaliter status, having survived from one of the quarantined spheres involved in the first rebellion ever to take place in the universes of time and space.


Being an agondonter is not a piece of cake...but what a prize we agondonters get if we can persevere!!!


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Hey Maryjo!!

Of course agony and agondonter have the same root word - agon - as do protagonist and antagonist. I like the "happy celebration" and "reward" parts of the public contest aspect.

"Agon (Classical Greek ἀγών) is an ancient Greek term for a struggle or contest. This could be a contest in athletics, in chariot or horse racing, or in music or literature at a public festival in ancient Greece; in the realm of literature refers to the dramatic conflict between the main characters in a Greek play, or more broadly, between the chief characters in any literary work. The word is also occasionally used to refer to conflict generally."

I posted the same definitions last year too. I got to thinking about the hammer and anvil aspect of our struggle and then remembered that all finaliters are shaped by the 'agony' of the hammer and anvil.

Since you find it interesting, Stephen also claimed that an agondonter is "one who dons the agony of the grand universe".


It was my opinion (then and now) that the Grand Universe does not experience agony. But perhaps then rebellion might be considered such 'agony'? But then do agondonters "put on" or wear the agony of the Grand Universe I wonder? Upon further consideration I still don't think so, no. Interesting how the mind works don't you think? BB claims morontial and moronic have the same root word and basic meaning. That part of universe reality between spirit and material is similar to imbecile or idiot or intellectual disability.

I find it such an odd claim. Mind is universal and its source is the same in all 3 levels of reality and that source is Deity and perfect. But BB claims the mid-mind is moronic. What's your opinion? How does this opinion reflect upon the UB and its readership do you think? Why might someone proclaim such a belief and opinion? Hmmmmm.....

8)


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The definition moron you provided is correct it applies to my current status, compared with my postfinal status of finalitor.

But I believe "moron" regards philosophically from tUB, the individuated ultimate potential of a sentient being. This is totally separate consideration, than sociological analysis of population behaviours. Moron does not compare one living being to another, but rather indicates the potential for self-determination in any creature, even the Eternal Son. Although I can say that I am moronic, infinitely dumber than the Eternal Son, the comparison between two separate individuals is untrue. Consider the ultimate potential of the Eternal Son, even without His Obligations to represent the pattern of the Universal Father to me, a human individual. Although it is also true that the comprehension and perseverence, at this stage, of Michael the Creator is greatly beyond my capacity, such comparison would also be untrue. The true regards to one's morontial status, is the destiny of the human individual.

The Urantia Book places high regard for other human individuals who can see God, such as Mary Magdalene and Apostle James and John, who allow seraphic ministry to adjust their perception in order to interpret the truth of one's perceptual experiences. This type of discernment is meager in terms of the human individual's status, but nevertheless I hold that all children should be able to see and hear the Master, the Supreme Son of Nebadon. If you calling someone a moron in the Urantia Book, it means you have given some consideration towards that individual's experiences, and ultimate potentials in unity with the life of the First Source and Center.

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BB's claim is so far off target, it's in another zip code altogether from truth or fact. It's rationally nonsensical....or altogether irrational! Stephen, it does not matter if material mind is moronic (which its not!). Material mind is not morontia mind. I have no idea what BB's goals or intentions are but his claims here show a circular reasoning that is so flawed as to be....well....moronic!!!

I don't think you are such at all Stephen. And the claim is insults you far less than your creator and source of mind. But the point is that the material mind, which may be considered or at least claimed to be inferior to the spirit mind in some regards, is NOT morontia mind. To assign the alleged or believed inferiority of the material mind to the morontia mind is an irreconcilable error and completely illogical in nature.

Like you, I believe that even if my personal bulb is not the brightest one in the store, that there certainly are and have been material minds of great brilliance and illumination and to claim that even material mind is moronic is an inaccurate judgment and claim of a most unworthy and suspicious nature but is a reflection upon the quality and nature of the mind which is making such a claim after all!! In other words....it is mostly self insulting by the one making the claim to the one making the claim.

Those children from the edges of time and space which are granted the gift of mind and spirit and personality and free will are the glorious achievement of the Life Carriers and Adjutants and are the very children of God who enjoy eternity as our destiny and have no need for or deserve to be so slighted and insulted as is the intention and result by this gross and ill considered opinion.

Stephen - your potential and your sincerity more than make up for any potential deficiencies we may share in common!!

And the morontial experience to come will erase all of our deficiencies and see us both become fused with the God Fragment to gain evermore wisdom and ability to serve others in faith and in truth and in fact. Head and chin up brother! Shame is no more helpful or appropriate than is pride!

:roll: :wink:


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Since you find it interesting, Stephen also claimed that an agondonter is "one who dons the agony of the grand universe".


It was my opinion (then and now) that the Grand Universe does not experience agony. But perhaps then rebellion might be considered such 'agony'? But then do agondonters "put on" or wear the agony of the Grand Universe I wonder? Upon further consideration I still don't think so, no. Interesting how the mind works don't you think? BB claims morontial and moronic have the same root word and basic meaning. That part of universe reality between spirit and material is similar to imbecile or idiot or intellectual disability.

I find it such an odd claim. Mind is universal and its source is the same in all 3 levels of reality and that source is Deity and perfect. But BB claims the mid-mind is moronic. What's your opinion? How does this opinion reflect upon the UB and its readership do you think? Why might someone proclaim such a belief and opinion? Hmmmmm.....


Well, we all think in our own particular ways, don't we? I don't find anyone's particular take on these words to be upsetting to me personally. After all, does any of us really KNOW what was in the minds of the revelators? What we have is text from one mind (an individual author of a paper) that is interpreted by another mind.

When thinking about agondonters and the word "agony," I can see the connection, even though the correct root is "agon." When I think of the trials we go through here on this dark world, and the effort it can take - at least at first - "to believe without seeing, persevere when isolated, and triumph over insuperable difficulties even when alone"...well, this can be an agonizing effort, and it takes determination to keep it up.

As for this moronic idea...it has always been interesting to me why the revelators chose such a word with such a root as "moron." I do not think they were likening us to morons, as we have come to understand that term. The word morontia can refer to spirit, to form, and to mind. And the soul is a morontia creation that is potentially immortal. So, I don't feel there is any significant connection to those two ideas. One is perjorative and the other is pretty grand, in my opinion. I trust that the revelators do not want to belittle us, but to ennoble us through giving us this information. To me, the morontia reality is a bridge from matter to spirit - from purely human values to superhuman values.

This is an interesting passage I found when researching this subject:

Quote:
67:3.9 Caligastia, with a maximum of intelligence and a vast experience in universe affairs, went astray—embraced sin. Amadon, with a minimum of intelligence and utterly devoid of universe experience, remained steadfast in the service of the universe and in loyalty to his associate. Van utilized both mind and spirit in a magnificent and effective combination of intellectual determination and spiritual insight, thereby achieving an experiential level of personality realization of the highest attainable order. Mind and spirit, when fully united, are potential for the creation of superhuman values, even morontia realities.


How does this reflect upon the UB and its readership? I don't know what you mean...I guess if someone wants to think of morontia as being "moronic," that may be a choice to make. But it sure is not my choice. I wanna be like Van...and I think we all can strive towards that kind of reality right here and now.


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